Roman Catholic Subforum/Moderation

Penn

hinault wrote: »

So closing off all discussion of the topic and banning well respected members was the better decision?
Having the decisions of the moderators forensically discussed since those banning and thread closures, is better than leaving one thread open?
Having a number of well respected members leaving Boards is better?

If you think that decision is better fine. Personally I think one thread in which to ventilate views would have been the better, more pragmatic decision.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It was the users disobeying the rules which led to them being banned. The mods weren't trying to stop discussion about the topic. They were trying to direct the discussion to the correct forum. It was not their fault that correct forum was closed, but that doesn't mean that you can go back and spam the Christianity forum. A bit of patience and understanding would have meant no bannings, no one leaving, and a social group or similar solution to your problem.

georgieporgy

this entire debate is going the way it usually does in the christianity forum.

PS I hope this inflammatory statement doesn't get me banned

Quo Vadis

Barrington wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It was the users disobeying the rules which led to them being banned. The mods weren't trying to stop discussion about the topic. They were trying to direct the discussion to the correct forum. It was not their fault that correct forum was closed, but that doesn't mean that you can go back and spam the Christianity forum. A bit of patience and understanding would have meant no bannings, no one leaving, and a social group or similar solution to your problem.

All those rehashed mis representations of our position have already been addressed.

When it was explained to the mod the incorrect forum we were directed to was closed, we got a not my problem response. It was a blatant attempt to close and bury the issue. Spin it any way you want, asking questions and how to progress a discussion / matter is not spamming. Meanwhile the usual trolls are allowed to keep posting over there.

The Mad Hatter

Quo Vadis wrote: »

All those rehashed mis representations of our position have already been addressed.

There was no representation of any kind of your position in Barrington's post. He was explaining why the position of the moderators of the Christianity forum was the correct one.

Insect Overlord

Quo Vadis wrote: »

The forum was overun with anti Catholic trollling, while anti-Christian trolling is dealt with very swifty (fair play). The trolls also worked this out. If every single anti-Catholic trolling post was reported, the mods would have been overun. We all tried for a very long time to ignore the trolling as you suggest, but that did'nt work either.

You guys should really put a bit more faith in the Report Post function. That's what it's there for. Gold helps those who help themselves, and all that jazz.

If the moderators feel that they're getting over-run, they'll request an extra pair of helping hands.

hinault

Barrington wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It was the users disobeying the rules which led to them being banned. The mods weren't trying to stop discussion about the topic. They were trying to direct the discussion to the correct forum. It was not their fault that correct forum was closed, but that doesn't mean that you can go back and spam the Christianity forum. A bit of patience and understanding would have meant no bannings, no one leaving, and a social group or similar solution to your problem.

I do take your point Barrington.

I do think that what happened on Monday was very regrettable and that "both sides" would accept this.

I am loathe to say this because it might be interpreted that I'm having another criticism at FC, but I did pm FC throughout Monday asking him/her to leave one thread open to discuss the matter.
So what I said to you earlier isn't hindsight.

Quo Vadis

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

There was no representation of any kind of your position in Barrington's post. He was explaining why the position of the moderators of the Christianity forum was the correct one.

I know you guys can keep this bluff up forever, but it won't stop me highlighting it.

hinault

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You guys should really put a bit more faith in the Report Post function. That's what it's there for. Gold helps those who help themselves, and all that jazz.

If the moderators feel that they're getting over-run, they'll request an extra pair of helping hands.

Here is a copy of one message posted by one Christianity moderator 2 weeks ago which refers to the trolling/derailing which had been going on for weeks on the Christianity forum.

PDN wrote: »

OK. A number of posters are becoming frustrated at how multiple threads are being dragged into squabbles about whether Catholicism or Protestantism is right or wrong. Some of the sectarianism on display has, in my own opinion, been an awful advert for Christianity.

So, in order to protect the Forum and facilitate on topic discussions, all that stuff now belongs here. Anyone who keeps trying to rile up Catholics or Protestants in other threads will be warned, and if those warnings are ignored then swift infractions and bans will ensue.

So how does this work? It will still be in order, if a poster asks a question, to say, "This is my belief as a Catholic/Methodist/Anglican etc.". It is OK to ask posters to clarify their beliefs, so as to avoid misunderstanding. The mods will be the judge of whether that crosses the line into a squabble.

So it was clear that trolling and deliberate derailing was taking place on the Christianity forum.
In my view the situation was not improving since that warning and it happens that several other RC's members arrived at the same view.

Quo Vadis

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You guys should really put a bit more faith in the Report Post function. That's what it's there for.

Tried, thats why there was no faith in it. How do you think it escalated here ? This frustration did not pop up one day, it was brewing for a long time.

But funny how the anti-Christian trolling was dealt with swiftly, without having to have multiple reports.

Quo Vadis

hinault wrote: »

Here is a copy of one message posted by one Christianity moderator 2 weeks ago which refers to the trolling/derailing which had been going on for weeks on the Christianity forum.

So it was clear that trolling and deliberate derailing was taking place on the Christianity forum.
In my view the situation was not improving since that warning and it happens that several other RC's members arrived at the same view.

And instead of dealing with the origional trolls, the mods moved the thread.

hinault

Quo Vadis wrote: »

And instead of dealing with the origional trolls, the mods moved the thread.

Exactly.

Quo Vadis

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Tried, thats why there was no faith in it. How do you think it escalated here ? This frustration did not pop up one day, it was brewing for a long time.

So you reported posts that weren't dealt with?

But funny how the anti-Christian trolling was dealt with swiftly, without having to have multiple reports.

I lurk and post in Christianity quite often. I don't see a lot of anti-Christian "trolling," nor do I see a lot of anti-Catholic "trolling." I usally see two things: either Protestants and Catholics arguing over something as silly as the use of the word denomination; and other users bringing up priest sexual abuse in relevant threads. That's about the height of it, really.

hinault

gvn wrote: »

So you reported posts that weren't dealt with?



I lurk and post in Christianity quite often. I don't see a lot of anti-Christian "trolling," nor do I see a lot of anti-Catholic "trolling." I usally see two things: either Protestants and Catholics arguing over something as silly as the use of the word denomination; and other users bringing up priest sexual abuse in relevant threads. That's about the height of it, really.

I disagree.

It was clear for many weeks that there was deliberate derailing and trolling of certain RC posters messages on the Christianity forum.
Further the words of one of your fellow Board moderators alludes to the fact that trolling/derailment and sectarian comments were being made.

LoLth

Quo Vadis. get out. you have done nothing to discuss the issue this thread was created for ie: the creation of a Roman Catholic sub forum.

I would even accept some discussion on the issue of appointing a mod based on their religious beliefs.

you however have decided to continually vent at the mods, have accused the admins of being "caught out" and trying to cover something up. (really? how? Have you read any posts in this thread?).

Your arrogance and ridiculous responses are enough to convice me that you have absolutely no interest in giving feedback or discussing the topic at hand and instead are determined to persue some personal crusade borne of a baseless conspiracy theory.

Banned from feedback for a week. Change your attitude and stay on topic when you come back or it will be longer next time.

LoLth

hinault

hinault wrote: »

I disagree.

It was clear for many weeks that there was deliberate derailing and trolling of certain RC posters messages on the Christianity forum.
Further the words of one of your fellow Board moderators alludes to the fact that trolling/derailment and sectarian comments were being made.

If I've seen it, I don't remember it. As I said, the only types of derailment I've seen involved Protestants and Catholics (which was getting ridiculous: nearly every thread ended up with a few Catholics debating a few Protestants about something like the use of the word denomination or some such), or a few people bringing up clerical abuse in what were, for the most part, relevant threads.

If you've seen explicit trolling then you should link to some instances of it. If it was so common it shouldn't be hard to find a few cases. I'm not saying it hasn't happened; I'm saying that I, as somebody who reads the forum quite a bit, haven't seen it happening at anywhere near the level you guys are describing.

dashboard_hula

hinault wrote: »

I'm not a member of the Protestant denominations or the Eastern Orthodox church.
I'm a member of the Roman Catholic church.

Which is a Christian religion, and therefore is correctly discussed in the Christian forum. In the same way that Sunni Islam, Tibetan Buddhism and Wicca are discussed in the Islam, Buddhism and Spirituality forums respectively. There is no need for a Roman Catholic sub-forum under the Christianity banner, or indeed a RC forum under the Religion and Spirituality Category.

The concept of a social group is a good one, and would work well for a small group of like minded people who wish to discuss the topic of their choice with heavy control over the people permitted to join the discussion with zero chance of being trolled as the small group of users on this thread seem convinced that you are, over and over again.

Direct question, reply welcome: Why is a social group not an acceptable resolution?

LoLth

mod hat on again

This feedback thread is for the discussion of a Roman Catholic subforum or possibly the need for a roman catholic moderator in the Christianity forum.

Complaints against mods should go into a seperate thread please so we can stop having three conversations at once and losing the signal.

Appeals against a mod action taken against you should be posted in the Dispute Resolution Forum (a sub forum of Helpdesk).

hinault

gvn wrote: »

If I've seen it, I don't remember it. As I said, the only types of derailment I've seen involved Protestants and Catholics (which was getting ridiculous: nearly every thread ended up with a few Catholics debating a few Protestants about something like the use of the word denomination or some such), or a few people bringing up clerical abuse in what were, for the most part, relevant threads.

If you've seen explicit trolling then you should link to some instances of it. If it was so common it shouldn't be hard to find a few cases. I'm not saying it hasn't happened; I'm saying that I, as somebody who reads the forum quite a bit, haven't seen it happening at anywhere near the level you guys are describing.

The above message is exactly the reason why we won't get a RC subforum.

Even when I got to the trouble of copying and pasting the words of a Boards moderator stating that trolling/derailment and sectarian remarks are made, we have another moderator (above) saying that he needs to see examples.

I tell you what, GVN. Try asking your fellow Board moderator why he posted a message which
referred to trolling/derailment and sectarian remarks were being made instead of asking us to justify our views.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

hinault

Folks, I'm finished posting in this thread.

It seems that bans on members are now being imposed in this section of Boards as well as in the Christianity section.

Pathetic stuff fellas.

hinault

hinault wrote: »

I tell you what, GVN. Try asking your fellow Board moderator why he posted a message which
referred to trolling/derailment and sectarian remarks were being made instead of asking us to justify our views.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

No need for the aggression, hinault.

As far as I'm aware, PDN's remarks above are from the Protestant/Catholic debate thread. That thread was created because a huge number of threads (not just Catholic-themed threads) were being derailed by Protestants and Catholics squabbling--not trolling; PDN's post doesn't mention trolling--over a lot of issues. It wasn't trolling; it was squabbling. The Protestant/Catholic debate thread was created to alleviate that issue. From my point of view (as a reader and poster) it was successful as I haven't seen much Protestant vs. Catholic squabbling in threads, as there was before.

I'm bowing out from here on in. I don't want to be responsible for dragging this thread any more off topic than it already (possibily) is. (I'm sorry if I'm doing so here, admins.)

Best of luck with your request, folks.

looksee

The only place where new forums can be requested is Forum Requests.

Forum Requests is closed to all new proposals at the moment.

If anyone tries to discuss new forums anywhere else other than Forum Requests and Feedback the thread will be closed.

If a poster argues or persists they will be warned/banned.

The above applies to everyone, it is policy. If you do not like Boards policy, feel free to post elsewhere.

Posters looking for a separate RC forum have been told no. Unless they can come up with a totally new and convincing argument, that decision stands.

Even if they do come up with a new and convincing argument nothing will happen immediately as the Forum Requests forum is closed.

The above has been repeated ad nauseum, what part of it do the proponents not understand?

And finally, why is the main proponent looking for a sub-forum of Christianity if he does not believe that Roman Catholicism is Christian? Is this possibly a troll too far?

LoLth

hinault wrote: »

Folks, I'm finished posting in this thread.

It seems that bans on members are now being imposed in this section of Boards as well as in the Christianity section.

Pathetic stuff fellas.

that is your decision. for what its worth, your contributions on why there should be a RC sub-forum were probably the most comprehensive and clear (and least insulting to others). Its a pity that you do not wish to continue.

regarding the ban. It has absolutely nothing to do with Quo Vadis being banned from Christianity, it is purely based on his repeated refusal to post his complaint in the proper forum (dispute resolution) and his constant off topic posts despite being asked by many users to discuss the actual topic of this thread.

I would suggest you look into the social group option to fulfill your sub-forum requirements, an option you seemed to think most suitable earlier in the thread.

Overheal

hinault wrote: »

If you review the Christianity forum, you will see that one thread created by PDN
where he refers to deliberate trolling from both sides of the theological divide, it must be added.
This is only one of many examples where threads had been deliberately derailed.

I've referred to this earlier on page 5 I think in this thread with a link.

hinault wrote: »

Here is a copy of one message posted by one Christianity moderator 2 weeks ago which refers to the trolling/derailing which had been going on for weeks on the Christianity forum.



So it was clear that trolling and deliberate derailing was taking place on the Christianity forum.
In my view the situation was not improving since that warning and it happens that several other RC's members arrived at the same view.

hinault wrote: »

The above message is exactly the reason why we won't get a RC subforum.

Even when I got to the trouble of copying and pasting the words of a Boards moderator stating that trolling/derailment and sectarian remarks are made, we have another moderator (above) saying that he needs to see examples.

I tell you what, GVN. Try asking your fellow Board moderator why he posted a message which
referred to trolling/derailment and sectarian remarks were being made instead of asking us to justify our views.

So, just so I have this straight... Your evidence that there is a problem in the Christianity forum that is not being dealt with, is a post by the Mod of the Christianity forum in the Christianity forum acting upon and addressing that problem?

Do you see how I find that densely ironic?

Fanny Cradock

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Take it to the DR forum and sort it out with your supervisors there then instead of trying to divert the discussion here.

I'll try again. The DR forum is a place for YOU, the user, to raise questions about ME, the moderator. If you have misgivings about any official actions taken, DR is the place on Boards that is specifically set-up to Resolve Disputes.

Using Feedback to complain about my actions is not the place to do it. It's like going into a bakers and complaining to them the hairdressers short-changed you. He might give you a sympathetic ear, he might not. But ultimately you are complaining to the wrong person. Indeed, this appears to be the the same type of confusion that remains an impediment to understanding that the Christianity forum is not the place to ask about creating new forums.

Additionally, if you read back on my last number of posts you will see that instead of trying to "divert the discussion", I have suggested on a number of occasions that you use this thread as an opportunity to make a case for your forum. The thing you wanted all along! (No need to thank me :pac:.) If you want to have a go at me or question my decision to ban you then -- I reiterate -- DR is the place for you.

lmaopml

This is actually horrible and really upsetting, the whole thing, it's like de ja vu, only worse. I feel **** for the guys who have posted and left, or are pm'ing good buys, and for the mods of the Christianity forum all at the same time.

I think the people who raised a 'revolt' are talking about the likes of this thread....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056208217

..where you come on to have an obvious chat in the 'Christianity' forum and perhaps the modding of it is overlooked by accident. I don't know....but it's difficult to talk on it without it getting derailed.

In fairness, we should 'report' though....

I think Fanny is a really cool mod. I don't want a sub forum. I am a Catholic and Christian, but perhaps an extra mod is worth talking about because the mods are majorly overworked imo...It's a completely nutty forum.

hinault

Overheal wrote: »

So, just so I have this straight... Your evidence that there is a problem in the Christianity forum that is not being dealt with, is a post by the Mod of the Christianity forum in the Christianity forum acting upon and addressing that problem?

Do you see how I find that densely ironic?

Perhaps this is a tactic?
Deliberate mendacity to get "the opposing side riled" so to speak?

Let me put this as simply and lucidly as possible.
The problem was not being dealt with.

1.A number of RC posters were being trolled for a number of weeks preceding
23rd May 2011.

2.A number of threads created by RC posters were derailed by trolling/sectarian comments preceding 23rd May 2011.

3.On foot of 1 and 2 above, complaints were made to the moderators at Christianity preceding 23rd May 2011.

4.The moderators at Christianity decided that the best course of action was to merge threads and leave those who were trolling/derailing in situ at 23rd May 2011.

5.Trolling and derailings continued albeit at reduced levels after 23rd May 2011.

6.Several RC members on the 5th and 6th decided to try to discuss the matter of creating a RC subforum on the Christianity forum and had 8 threads closed and three long standing members banned.

The reason we sought to discuss the creation of a RC subforum was because of the ineffectiveness of steps 1-5 above.


PS : I've broken my own rule in saying that I had finished posting here. I made an exception.

Overheal

Perhaps this is a tactic?
Deliberate mendacity to get "the opposing side riled" so to speak?

Untruthfulness? No. I don't know what could possibly be untruthful about a clear observation of plain text.

1.A number of RC posters were being trolled for a number of weeks preceding
23rd May 2011.

2.A number of threads created by RC posters were derailed by trolling/sectarian comments preceding 23rd May 2011.

3.On foot of 1 and 2 above, complaints were made to the moderators at Christianity preceding 23rd May 2011.

4.The moderators at Christianity decided that the best course of action was to merge threads and leave those who were trolling/derailing in situ at 23rd May 2011.

5.Trolling and derailings continued albeit at reduced levels after 23rd May 2011.

Ok. So the Moderators have been making efforts to stop the trolling. Can you accept that it is a process, and you can not possibly stamp out everything in two weeks? You admit yourself here, the measure was at least partially effective. It's not a surprising measure, given the moderator's effectiveness with containing Creationism and Evolution debate to a single megathread of unsightly proportions.

6.Several RC members on the 5th and 6th decided to try to discuss the matter of creating a RC subforum on the Christianity forum and had 8 threads closed and three long standing members banned.

The reason we sought to discuss the creation of a RC subforum was because of the ineffectiveness of steps 1-5 above.

I've just addressed the effectiveness of your 1 - 5. 14 days is not a lot of time to expect guaranteed results from. Particularly if aggrieved individuals don't highlight what is bothering them by Reporting Posts.

You've also heard it many times in this thread why it was inappropriate to have any discussion about creating a subforum of Christianity inside of the Christianity forum. I'm also aware that was a dead end, so I sympathise. However, we should be past this already: The admins have already agreed to be open minded about opening up a subforum, or introducing a Roman Catholic Mod, which is a big shock to me, but if you can make the case for it and it will solve the problem all the best I suppose. But so far your argument for it boils down to a) The Christian Mods are ineffective (See my above about 1 - 5) and b) Catholicism is not a denomination of Christianity, which, it is.

With that all now moot and aside, what other substantial reasons might there be to support a subforum or RC mod?

hinault

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'll try again. The DR forum is a place for YOU, the user, to raise questions about ME, the moderator. If you have misgivings about any official actions taken, DR is the place on Boards that is specifically set-up to Resolve Disputes.

FC: 10 minutes before you posted this message above, LoLth made it clear that Quo Vadis had been banned from this thread.
So why do you insist on replying to a poster who has, through no fault of his own, no right of reply?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Using Feedback to complain about my actions is not the place to do it. It's like going into a bakers and complaining to them the hairdressers short-changed you. He might give you a sympathetic ear, he might not. But ultimately you are complaining to the wrong person. Indeed, this appears to be the the same type of confusion that remains an impediment to understanding that the Christianity forum is not the place to ask about creating new forums.

Additionally, if you read back on my last number of posts you will see that instead of trying to "divert the discussion", I have suggested on a number of occasions that you use this thread as an opportunity to make a case for your forum. The thing you wanted all along! (No need to thank me :pac:.) If you want to have a go at me or question my decision to ban you then -- I reiterate -- DR is the place for you.

As for taking it to the DR forum there is little point in falling for another whitewash tactic and directing us to yet another forum for yet another whitewash.
It's another wildgoose chase, FC.
Or maybe in trying to wipe Monday from your mind you've forgotten that you used the same tactic in the Christianity forum?

I think the RC posters see the reality of the situation that has existed on the Christianity forum.

Overheal

why do you insist on replying to a poster who has, through no fault of his own, no right of reply?

Now theres mendacity.

Fanny Cradock

hinault wrote: »

FC: 10 minutes before you posted this message above, LoLth made it clear that Quo Vadis had been banned from this thread.
So why do you insist on replying to a poster who has, through no fault of his own, no right of reply?

I didn't know that he had been banned. Sometimes I unplug from the matrix.

hinault wrote: »

As for taking it to the DR forum there is little point in falling for another whitewash tactic and directing us to yet another forum for yet another whitewash.
It's another wildgoose chase, FC.
Or maybe in trying to wipe Monday from your mind you've forgotten that you used the same tactic in the Christianity forum?

I think the RC posters see the reality of the situation that has existed on the Christianity forum.

Now this is really unfair. It wasn't a tactic. I've admitted that I was not aware that the FR was closed, and I apologise for this. I really resent you making such an accusation, especially after we left on relatively good terms in private.

To clarify yet again.

FR is the place that everybody who wants a new forum must go to. That it is currently closed has nothing to do with me. You must realise that FR being closed for requests leaves everybody seeking a new forum in the same the same boat.

DR is the place for anybody wishing to contest a moderator's actions. Quo Vadis was made aware of this on multiple occasions (put up in DR or shut up!) and it should not have been hard to understand. It seems to me that history repeated itself.

But, hey, if you think Boards is against you, and that we are all giving you the run around (btw, I don't know the other mods, c-mods and admins from Adam) then I don't think anything anyone says will change your mind.