neutral shoes with orthotics?

robroy1234

Yop - What I am referring to with the GAA/Soccer lot was the manner and method in which the GAA medical council decided that cryotherapy didn't work. They based their assumption on a group of intercounty players, did not have a control group, the methodology and protocol was haphazard and unclear. The system of one minute in-one minute out, is not even used anywhere nor have been part of any research. The length of time normally agreed with the collegiate system in the US is 10 - 20 minutes. Some universities in the states have also invested in cryotherapy chambers.

So the GAA medical council threw out cryotherapy and the soccer lot followed suit - based on extremely poor, unverifiable, unreliable, and invalid research methods.

I was referring to those on the council and not your ordinary GAA/ Soccer player.

yop

robroy1234 wrote: »

Yop - What I am referring to with the GAA/Soccer lot was the manner and method in which the GAA medical council decided that cryotherapy didn't work. They based their assumption on a group of intercounty players, did not have a control group, the methodology and protocol was haphazard and unclear. The system of one minute in-one minute out, is not even used anywhere nor have been part of any research. The length of time normally agreed with the collegiate system in the US is 10 - 20 minutes. Some universities in the states have also invested in cryotherapy chambers.

So the GAA medical council threw out cryotherapy and the soccer lot followed suit - based on extremely poor, unverifiable, unreliable, and invalid research methods.

I was referring to those on the council and not your ordinary GAA/ Soccer player.

Fair enough, just sounded like a bit of a generalization

robroy1234

Larry - the whole basis of research is about tweeking out these differences. Thats why when I talk about Sport Psychology I make sure that 1. it is nothing to do with motivational speaking. There are too many fellas going around doing motivational talks and saying that it is sport psychology. 2. That the practice of Academic Sport Psychology and Applied Sport Psychology are well defined and approached.

In relation to research Academic Sport Psychology is highly entrenched in the system, the only problem is that there still is a huge gap between research analysis and actual performance on the track. For example back in 2000, I was in my prime and looking for a spot on the British Olympic team, I was working on my Masters in Sport Science and so I was Physiologically tested on a regular basis. My VO2Max after numerous tests reached the remarkable level of 90.13 ml/kg/min-1 with the treadmill speed 23km/hour gradient 3% and OBLA and heart rate etc., measured and recorded. Yet my performances on the track were getting worse when my performance on the tests improved. What was noted and attributed to the difference were:
1. training effect on running on the treadmill.
2. the competitive environment on the track is vastly different from running on the treadmill - i.e. other runners, weather, running technique.
3. the movement of the body whilst running on the treadmill is vastly different from running on the track. Different level of muscle stimulation and the body's centre of gravity.
4. Competitive running where a fast start brings an athlete into oxygen debt earlier on whereas on the treadmill speed is slowly built up. This runs contrary to how one would actually race on the track - even if you do race in negative splits the amount of effort has to be increased despite the reduction in pace.

robroy1234

Larry - what I found with physiological testing, gait analysis, biomechanic analysis etc., is a huge scope for the error of committing False-Positives. Consider that looking at the numerous East African athletes that have succeeded over the years then fall prey to the "physiologists." One fella Zersenay Tadesse, former World Cross Country Champion and 4 times World Half-Marathon champion going fantastically until he got caught up with the physiological testing crowd. They went wild with excitement over his VO2, and OBLA and Mitchondria density and with that his performances fell apart.

If there is perchance that at the London 2012 games they will have a section for athletes that have orthotics, with specialised straps and taping, with the medals going to those with the highest VO2Max/OBLA in conjunction with the treadmill speed, gradient and environmental conditions - then we as a nation stand a great chance in getting that medal.

Gluteus maximus

After all that, what is the view on orthotics then?

Scam or legitimate?

And if the latter, do you take the insoles out of your shoes before putting in the orthotic? Getting conflicting advice from different people.

Sorry for resurrecting old thread.

robroy1234

Total and utter scam. If you have leg and feet injuries and told you need orthotics, or go into a shop and told that you need motion control/support shoes, then go to a well mowed soccer/football pitch and jog barefoot on grass everyday for three weeks. You will then see that this supposed need for motion control/support/orthotics etc all go out off the window. Then look at what the east Africans wear - light weight, neutral shoes. As the old saying goes "if its not broke, don't fix it."

GKiraly

While im not going to shoot down the non-use of orthotics totally, in fact, another boardie on one of the other threads in Gears & Equipment made a good point about niggles and injuries leading back to structural and functional problems and that orthotics pretty much just sweep the fundamental problem under the carpet, I can only put forward my own positive feedback towards what theyve done for me.
For myself personally, I was years going to physios as I was constantly getting niggles, aches, injuries, then lately I got orthotics - trips to physios gone by wayside, no more injuries, and time and running effort improving all the time.
As I side, thats not to say just cause orthotics appear to have worked for me - in the recent short term anyway - that they are the problem to structural issues with gait and stride. They just happened to have solved my years of problems. Hopefully it will continue. But im open to other theories, that, potentially, could get me out of orthotics in the future if better solutions proved themselves more credible. So if one was to point me in the direction of better sources of info for where I could get to the root of the problem that lead to me getting orthotics in the first place, id be welcome to hear it! I was sceptical for long enough about getting them until I finally gave in as all other avenues of hope were slowly diminishing so im always open to newer and better ideas. For now, its happy running!

dahat

GKiraly wrote: »

While im not going to shoot down the non-use of orthotics totally, in fact, another boardie on one of the other threads in Gears & Equipment made a good point about niggles and injuries leading back to structural and functional problems and that orthotics pretty much just sweep the fundamental problem under the carpet, I can only put forward my own positive feedback towards what theyve done for me.
For myself personally, I was years going to physios as I was constantly getting niggles, aches, injuries, then lately I got orthotics - trips to physios gone by wayside, no more injuries, and time and running effort improving all the time.
As I side, thats not to say just cause orthotics appear to have worked for me - in the recent short term anyway - that they are the problem to structural issues with gait and stride. They just happened to have solved my years of problems. Hopefully it will continue. But im open to other theories, that, potentially, could get me out of orthotics in the future if better solutions proved themselves more credible. So if one was to point me in the direction of better sources of info for where I could get to the root of the problem that lead to me getting orthotics in the first place, id be welcome to hear it! I was sceptical for long enough about getting them until I finally gave in as all other avenues of hope were slowly diminishing so im always open to newer and better ideas. For now, its happy running!

Where did you go for your orthotics?

robroy1234

As a former professional in the orthotics/ shoe industry, plus doing academic research in gait analysis and biomechanics I can pretty state from most academic research is against orthotics and specialized shoes. For people with structural problems with their feet need to have a good look at why their feet are structured in such a way, and paying €300 - €400 for orthotics only delays the inevitable or just exacerbate any existing condition. Since the market explosion in othotics and specialized shoes the level of lower leg injuries have increased, with a strong correlation between orthotics and Anterior Tibia Syndrome.
Simple foot exercises, such as picking up marbles with the toes and toe-towel crunching, strengthens the plantar fascia as well as bare foot running on grass. The idea is to return the feet and legs to its natural way of moving when running. During my time in the industry and looking at thousands of feet on foot scanners, my own findings agree with academic studies that indicate that the vast majority of people do not have flat feet (Pes Planus). That the people who are selling orthotics and specialized shoes are providing misinformation concerning the feet in relation to their products, such as in the case of flat feet the plantar fascia can no longer be strengthened.
Considering that people in Ireland and UK are up in arms over the banks miss-selling products and ripping people off, it appears that certain runners are just as happy to be miss-sold and ripped off by being duped into buying unneeded orthotics and specialized shoes.
It is a lucrative market considering the charges these people have - €125 for gait analysis, €300 for orthotics, €100 for specialized shoes, €50 per time for physio, and as an extra a 6 week training programme for €300.
You will have to ask yourself why athletes in the past didn't suffer lower leg injuries as badly as runners do now and why African athletes also have less incidences of lower leg injuries.

Clearlier

robroy1234 wrote: »

As a former professional in the orthotics/ shoe industry, plus doing academic research in gait analysis and biomechanics I can pretty state from most academic research is against orthotics and specialized shoes. For people with structural problems with their feet need to have a good look at why their feet are structured in such a way, and paying €300 - €400 for orthotics only delays the inevitable or just exacerbate any existing condition. Since the market explosion in othotics and specialized shoes the level of lower leg injuries have increased, with a strong correlation between orthotics and Anterior Tibia Syndrome.
Simple foot exercises, such as picking up marbles with the toes and toe-towel crunching, strengthens the plantar fascia as well as bare foot running on grass. The idea is to return the feet and legs to its natural way of moving when running. During my time in the industry and looking at thousands of feet on foot scanners, my own findings agree with academic studies that indicate that the vast majority of people do not have flat feet (Pes Planus). That the people who are selling orthotics and specialized shoes are providing misinformation concerning the feet in relation to their products, such as in the case of flat feet the plantar fascia can no longer be strengthened.
Considering that people in Ireland and UK are up in arms over the banks miss-selling products and ripping people off, it appears that certain runners are just as happy to be miss-sold and ripped off by being duped into buying unneeded orthotics and specialized shoes.
It is a lucrative market considering the charges these people have - €125 for gait analysis, €300 for orthotics, €100 for specialized shoes, €50 per time for physio, and as an extra a 6 week training programme for €300.
You will have to ask yourself why athletes in the past didn't suffer lower leg injuries as badly as runners do now and why African athletes also have less incidences of lower leg injuries.

Hi Rob, I completely agree that there is a whole heap of misinformation out there regarding orthotics and I've been taken in by more than my fair share of charlatans. I do wonder if the case against orthotics isn't slightly overstated though. In my own case I had been trying to run for 10+ years and couldn't get in two short runs a week without getting a really sore case of shin splints. After a number of false starts I got a pair of orthotics from a qualified orthotist and worked my way up to 50 mpw before I got injured again. I'm doing my best to move away from orthotics but if I didn't have them in the first place I don't know that I would ever have made any progress and I would probably never have managed to run consistently.

Based on my own experiences I like to make the distinction between the professionals - qualified orthotists and podiatrists and the charlatans who sometimes sell them over the counter in places like Boots, Elverys and other retailers and even worse turn up at running expo's and tell you that they're custom making them for you when in reality they're not. I also experienced the physio prescribing them which in some ways is the most misleading because you think that you're dealing with a professional when in reality you're talking to somebody who has a training in a related area and may have done a weekend course and thinks that they're qualified to prescribe orthotics (not all physios are like this).

I think that the professionals have something to offer some people. The rest are pretty useless, can make problems worse and can create new ones.

P.S. I'm not sure that comparable athletes in the past did get fewer lower leg injuries. Comparisons are difficult though because aside from at the elite end we're an awful lot fatter than the guys who ran 30 years ago. I'm not aware of research in the area though so if you are feel free to shoot me down :-)

GKiraly

Totally agree that there is a lot of misinformation out there. I got my orthotics off an orthotist who was recommended to me by a physio, he then in turn had me stand in a foam box which, as far as orthotics goes, opens up another new can of worms, as some will argue that that form of checking for the shape of the foot is wrong methodology and inaccurate. Which I suppose goes to show the amount of subjective opinion out there.


However, in my own case, after 6 / 7 years of running and constant niggles I was faced with the choice of either sticking with the running, constantly getting rubs, or giving orthotics a shot, I chose orthotics as I thought “what have I got to lose at this stage apart from more money with physios”?. It was suggested to me years ago by a fellow runner that I may need orthotics but opted against it at the time as I didn’t think shelling out €300+ just coz some other runner told me would be wisest of things to do until I got advised by a physio or other (hopefully!) reputable source. That’s not to say I’ll still be running in orthotics in years to come, I could be in them for another 6 years before some better option presents itself or, I could be out of them in 6 months. Of course im not happy about shelling out €300 on orthotics, nor do I believe just coz they reduced my injuries and physio visits that they are best thing since brown pasta, on the contrary in fact as I keep an open mind to better options all the time, but at the moment it appears to be the better of the two evils - either I shell out and give plan B a go, aka, orthotics, or id have it spent twice over before the year is out on physios, like the last few years.


I do see the point robroy is making in that there are perhaps other options out there that could rectify the fundamental structural problems. I like to think so as solving the fundamental problem would obviously go one better again in my quest for proper gait structure and cut out the future renewing of orthotics as obviously they don’t come cheap and as some claim, could lead to future foot problems. But until such time as I come across some qualified source within the medical circle who can definitively say that my foot is rolling inwards coz of x, y and z, and instead of orthotics, do this this and this, then Im gonna have to make do with the orthotics!

robroy1234

The problem with orthotics is that even though they start out as a short term fix they end up as a long term problem.