Firearm unlawfully taken by Gardai

Tackleberrywho

On the Flip side, I have been dealing with AGS a long time and have to say that they were always very helpful and never caused me problems.

Longranger

How come when a thread goes on for more than a couple dozen posts,it turns into a barely related (if it all) argument:( If people want to argue about something so off topic,maybe they should do so via pm instead of filling up the thread with a two-way row that has bugger-all to do with the original posting. It puts other people off reading the thread who may have a valuale contribution to make.Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off,but lets stay on topic:)

cavan shooter

Like a good quality river there always is a meander or two...but it always straightens out at the end:D

Hartman

cavan shooter wrote: »

2. Being stopped by the guards as I am stepping inside a field and asked if the o/u only took 2 shells
.

Ive heard it all now....

The frightening thing is and I wouldn't be suprised if he had misheard this info from someone else in the station and not actually bothered to read the law on the number of cartridges a shotgun is allowed to hold.

You think education is expensive.... Try ignorance

kermitpwee

Longranger wrote: »

How come when a thread goes on for more than a couple dozen posts,it turns into a barely related (if it all) argument:( If people want to argue about something so off topic,maybe they should do so via pm instead of filling up the thread with a two-way row that has bugger-all to do with the original posting. It puts other people off reading the thread who may have a valuale contribution to make.Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off,but lets stay on topic:)

I dont see anything off topic here, the original post is highlighting that there have been cases where people have had guns taken off them unlawfully, des crofton then talks about the guards not knowing the law and that they were wrong. In this thread people have then came up with their own examples and that the guards should know the law, how is that going off topic?

Cass

kermitpwee wrote: »

I dont see anything off topic here, .........

The off topic posts have been moved to a more appropriate thread.

kermitpwee

Sparks wrote: »

The problem with that is that the Firearms Act is one of the most convoluted, arcane, badly written and poorly collated parts of Irish law. It's spread across eight Firearms Acts, a dozen or so other Acts from the Wildlife Acts to the Road Traffic Acts, two EU directives, upwards of fifty SIs, and who-knows-how-many guidelines, policies, memos and schedules. The Law Reform Commission was recommending a restatement of the Firearms Act in 2006 before Minister McDowell took an already messy Act and added 100% more mess to it, and before Minister Ahern did likewise in 2009. My best guess is that there are maybe two dozen people in total in Ireland who know the firearms act correctly - and most of those two dozen are not in the AGS, they're spread between the DoJ and the NGBs on the FCP.

Given that setup, I would tend to give a little more leeway than normal to rank-and-file gardai...
...but only a little more, mind! Silly buggers is silly buggers...

Well if there is such complication to these acts then AGS do indeed need training, it would be beyond any worker to spend the time necessary that you have indicated. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

The off topic posts have been moved to a more appropriate thread.

Jesus can I do any right on this thread! Thanks for clearing that up and apologies to previous poster that I had quoted!

Longranger

kermitpwee wrote: »

Jesus can I do any right on this thread! Thanks for clearing that up and apologies to previous poster that I had quoted!

No apologies necessary kermit, if I had a euro for every time I upset someone on this forum i'd be shooting a Sako TRG in .338 with a zeiss scope and all the trimmings! happy hunting:)

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

Isn't there something in the new legislation that states you can't have access to a firearm while driving a car etc? That it has to be securely locked in the boot?

Sparks wrote: »

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

Ahm, I was/am under the same impression as BS That a firearm in transit can't be accessible by passengers or others not licensed to hold it.

Going to have a trawl through the awfulness that are that acts/guidelines later tonight if I get the time. Could be wrong, but that's what I thought...

johngalway

Commissioners Guidelines: (Not an act I know, I know. Points 3,4, and 6.)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61951357&highlight=passenger#post61951357

CHAPTER 3: CONDITIONS THAT MAY BE CONSIDERED RELEVANT WHEN GRANTING A FIREARM CERTIFICATE AND CASE LAW

Section 4(2)(g) of the Firearms Act 1925 as substituted by section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006 provides that when a firearms certificate is granted it may be subject to a condition or conditions. Furthermore in the case of Joseph Magee v Patrick Murray and Dennis Roche, a judgment delivered by Birmingham J. in the High Court on 24th November 2008, confirmed that the statutory scheme allows a superintendent to impose conditions when granting a firearms certificate under the Firearms Acts.

There are considerable obligations on firearms license holders to ensure that firearms are stored safely and securely, and in particular whilst traveling to a shoot or to a hunt.

The following conditions may be considered appropriate (although the list is not an exhaustive one) for inclusion by a superintendent or chief superintendent when granting a firearms certificate:

* That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 60cm)/ammunition concealed on the person in public is not permitted at any time, save in circumstances where such possession and carriage on the person is necessary for a lawful purpose.
* In the case of self loading (semi automatic) pistols and revolvers consideration may be given to a requirement to dismantle each gun when not at the range where it is intended to be used with some necessary parts held at the range.
* During transport, firearms must always be stored in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
* No gun should be loaded with ammunition while traveling to or from a shoot.
* Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
* That the firearm is never left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.
* If it is necessary to stop and leave the vehicle, reasonable steps should be taken to ensure the safety of the firearm in question. It is a good idea to also place in the boot anything which might indicate that a firearm may be in the vehicle e.g. hunting clothing, stalking stick, hunting knife, binoculars, decoys, hunting hat etc.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

No, my CPO said it to me when he visited me to check my security too :eek:

I knew I read it somewhere too............thanks JG & Vizzy.

Those lads were in the wrong so ! Rifle in the car driving around .......................

Vizzy

Nice edit Bunny.
Thanks

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

No, my CPO said it to me when he visited me to check my security too :eek:
I knew I read it somewhere too............thanks JG.
Those lads were in the wrong so ! Rifle in the car driving around .......................

What JG's got there is the Commissioner's recommendations to Superintendents for conditions to put on someone's licence; if those conditions aren't on your licence, you're not required to adhere to them (though in most cases, people do most of those for common sense reasons). But the only place I know of where the carriage of firearms is covered in an Act is in the Road Traffic Act 1963, and that's covering public service vehicles, not private vehicles.

bunny shooter

Vizzy wrote: »

Nice edit Bunny.
Thanks

I nearly forgot ya by the time I got to end of the new posts

bakil

i asked the garda in charge firearms at my local station, he told me a firearm can be any where in a car as long as it is out of public view. unless stated on your licence.

tfox

on the topic of ill-informed guards the following happened to me a few years back

I had been out hunting with lurchers with my friend and my cousin on the cousins farm. We were in the process of closing a gate at the side of the road when a squad car drives by, stops, then backs up :rolleyes:

"What are you upto lads ?" we explain to him that we're hunting rabbits and foxes.

"where's your gun ?" - explain to him that we are just hunting them with the lurchers, dont have any guns with us.

"but where's your guns.....?" - explain to him slower in smaller words exactly how hunting with dogs works.

He looks at his with a bewildered look on his face, says something to his colleague, then turns and asks us - "is that legal ?" :eek::rolleyes::D

Half-cocked

tfox wrote: »

on the topic of ill-informed guards the following happened to me a few years back

I had been out hunting with lurchers with my friend and my cousin on the cousins farm. We were in the process of closing a gate at the side of the road when a squad car drives by, stops, then backs up :rolleyes:

"What are you upto lads ?" we explain to him that we're hunting rabbits and foxes.

"where's your gun ?" - explain to him that we are just hunting them with the lurchers, dont have any guns with us.

"but where's your guns.....?" - explain to him slower in smaller words exactly how hunting with dogs works.

He looks at his with a bewildered look on his face, says something to his colleague, then turns and asks us - "is that legal ?" :eek::rolleyes::D

Did he ask to see your dog license?;)

FISMA

bakil wrote: »

i asked the garda in charge firearms at my local station, he told me a firearm can be any where in a car as long as it is out of public view. unless stated on your licence.

Bakil,

Again, I do not know what the written law is here. If anyone has the statute number, please advise or ctrl-c, ctrl-v.

What the Garda told you is heresay and not much good, especially if he is wrong. I wonder if he would be willing to put what he said in writing?

If the Garda is wrong and you get busted, quoting him will not be much good.

To each his own. I for one always keep the rifle in the trunk.

Half-cocked wrote: »

Did he ask to see your dog license?

Thanks for the laugh this morning!

Norwayviking

Half-cocked wrote: »

Did he ask to see your dog license?;)

007 K9 with license to bite:D

Shotgun_TEXAS

I remember when my brother turned 16 he got his shotgun licence back in 2 weeks 3days in 2001. Now the following year 2002 I was 16 I applied for mine. I had a gun in my dads name for a couple of years a mossberg 500 pump. Now i grew up with guns my old man was a great hunter taught me loads of stuff so I had sold the mossberg to buy a beretta 301 s/a. Still have it 8 years on love it.
Got a letter had to appear for an interview with my parents in Enniscorthy garda station. I was never in trouble in my life nor hung around with a bad crowd mind you. So the interview went on he asked me silly safety questions which i answered with utmost confidence I just quoted the handbook ffs then he came to my parents and they backed me they said i grew up with guns was level headed made the under 21 county team clay shooting so you see where this is goin. (it couldnt be better)

But no, the superintendent sat back stroked his tie and said no i feel 16 is too young sorry :O
Any way my old man licensed it in his name cos i couldnt let it go and I actually collected the licence in the local station and the local guard said to me "sure your right now you have it" lol. Still it was nerve wrecking enough hunting when i was under 16. I legally couldnt hold a licence so it added another two years because i didnt bother again untill i was 18. I was young and had no balls . I should have went to the NARGC. I'm a member since i was 14. Fecking GARDA think they make the law. You are there to enforce it not make it up

Tea drinker

Sparks wrote: »

This is what happens when you don't invest in sufficient training for rank-and-file Gardai and then deploy them in a country with a problem with gun crime that successive Ministers have not tackled, but dodged.

I would have said that for some of the gunslip incidents, but the lead incident above does seem to be a lot more than that. The Garda engaged in an obvious and offensive series of lies that simply destroy his credibility as a Garda, and at least reflect poorly on his peers. Taking the story at face value, it would be a worry to me to have such dubious characters in a position of authority.