Dog walkers in Mayo/Coillte forest users

Chances

As I posted in another thread, the Coillte forest local to me where I regularly walked my border collie, recently put up Keep Dogs on Leash, signs everywhere. Pretty devastating as you can imagine.

I wrote to Coillte asking them to reconsider their signage and to replace the Keep Dogs On Leash signs with Keep Dogs Under Control or some other such option. I appreciate the responsibilities dog owners have, but we must also be allowed places to let our animals run freely.

Anyway, Coillte responded to me with an email that consisted of a copy and paste job on the restricted breed laws (why? I have a collie which I explained in my email,) and an explanation for the signs that absolutely defied logic.

Apparently a woman asked a man to put his dog on a leash. According to her he was then verbally aggressive to her so she contacted Coillte who decided to put up signs saying that all dogs be leashed, always. What??

Anyway, I am in the process of writing back to Coillte about this. Coillte’s policy is that they are constantly open to consultation with the community. Apparently in this instance, Coillte said they consulted with Mayo County Council and with the local woods enhancement committee.

On our behalf they must have thought this was a good thing.

I don’t.

I am going to ask to be part of the consultation process when next this is discussed. Also I see that Coillte have a stakeholders section on their website. Anyone can register to be a stakeholder and the list of stakeholders is to be used for consultation purposes. I am going to register. If you are a dog owner and are affected by this you should too.

Anyway, I just thought I’d see if any of you here are from the area and as fed up about this as I am. The wood in question is Belleek. If you are affected by this, please make a stand. You can easily find out from the Coillte site how to contact them. If you can’t find it, let me know and I’ll make it easy for you.

If you are from other parts f the country and walk in Coillte woods which are already covered by these signs, let them know how objectionable and restrictive they are. Email them. Put yourself on the stakeholders list. Demand that the policy be reviewed.

More and more of us are being forced by into urban areas by planning laws and building policies. Our dogs need places to run. I am flabbergasted by Mayo Couty Council thinking this was a good thing. They are next on my list of people to email.

I saw on another thread where people suggested that there be a responsible dog owner’s licence. This is the kind of direction we need to move in rather than blanket bans. My friends and I came up with the idea for an Unleashed Dog’s License, where basically you prove your dog has recall and is non dog and people aggressive. Could be run by volunteers or could be a money spinner for the council if they thought about it. Putting up all dogs on leash signs is just a way of clamping down on the freedom of people who will obey the law, while the very people who created the problems these laws are designed to combat, will just ignore them anyway.

Anyway, I know this does not address the problems people who have dogs on the restricted breed list face. I’d be delighted to support you in any campaign to try to bring more common sense and personal responsibility in to play there too, but at the moment I am just trying to get Coillte not to go beyond the current law with the signage in their woods.

The future is political. If you don’t want to be dictated to, start complaining. If anyone wants help writing an email by the way, I know drafting those damn things can be exhausting, I’m happy to help. Or if you can think of any other way to do anything about this, put it here. At the moment I think the more emails/phone calls/letters etc. they receive about this, the better. At least then they won’t be able to say that nobody minds.

Anyway, I’m completely fed up with having lost such a beautiful place to walk the dog because one man and one lady had a verbal. It beggars belief, it really does.

ISDW

Sorry, but I think I may agree with them on this one. I've walked in Beleek woods and my dogs have been harassed by off lead dogs (and no, I haven't complained to Coillte or the council about it). A dog being under control is very subjective, you may think your dog is under control, someone else may not.

Most Coillte forests have the policy of dogs on leads, but most dog owners ignore it.

A lot of Coillte forests won't allow sled dogs to train in the forests - because off lead dogs may run up to them and cause an accident. Off lead dogs in forests where dogs have to be on leads, how is that fair? The rule is there, but because people ignore it, responsible dog owners are refused permission for a sport that their dogs love.

doctor evil

Most Coillte forests are surrounded by farmland which can contain stock, also some folk may not be as fond of your dog as you are:)

There is already a dog license.

koneko

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I can't say I totally agree with your campaign either

Some people may have great control over their dogs even when off lead, but most of the time when I come across people with dogs off lead they are not at all under control (I always have mine on lead, mainly due to breed).

You haven't lost a beautiful place to walk, you just have to keep your dog on lead, if I understand it correctly?

Chances

So both of you would like all dogs to be on leads all of the time? I guess that's why we have democracy and discussion, so that all sides may present their views. I don’t think it’s a very healthy way for a dog to live or for his life to be managed.
I keep my dog on a lead on the public road as there is a danger from cars but the woods are so safe for him it bothers me to even consider leashing him. Not to even mention how much less exercise he would get attached to a leash
I never allow my dog to run up to leashed dogs. My rule of thumb with leashed dogs is that there must be a reason the owner keeps them on a leash, so no socialising with them.
However, when I meet leashed dogs straining in an aggressive manner and an owner who is holding on with gritted teeth, I would not class that dog as under control. Restrained is not the same as under control.
Also, my dog is people indifferent. I have to hold him and make chit chat with the small children who want to pet them to try and disguise the fact that he could care less about them and just wants to run off and smell the trees.
I also walk a westie in the woods for my brother sometimes. He's on the leash at all times as he has no recall and no dog sense. That’s the kind of common sense I’m talking about having. Most dog walkers I encounter seem to have that common sense also. Maybe I’m just lucky.
And yes, we see animals in the fields as we walk. He could care less. Maybe I have the world’s most well behaved dog. I dunno. Maybe I’m just responsible.

As to your point about dog sledding, I can imagine unleashed children would be as great a potential danger as unleashed dogs. They can get quite a distance from their parents. Should we tie everything down? Just all stay home? I find it hard to believe that unleashed dogs are the greatest hazard with dog sleighs. What if you met twenty joggers coming towards you? A child on a bicycle? Wheelchair users? I dunno. My lack of knowledge of the speeds and reaction times involved in dog sledding make this difficult for me to get into.

koneko

I have a very large secure garden that my dogs can run around in, so for me there is no concern of the dogs having no opportunity to run around off leash, they have a *lot* of space.


That aside
A) You may have your dogs under control off leash, but many absolutely do not

The default should not be "off leash", and that a dog that's on a lead is supposedly not sociable. That's just bizarre


My rule of thumb, based on experience, is that more people lack common sense than have it, unfortunately

mikemac

Chances wrote: »

Maybe I have the world’s most well behaved dog. I dunno. Maybe I’m just responsible.

But then everyone say this, same way nobody would say they are a terrible driver.

Probably the man and women in the argument thought the very same.

Others might think their dog is under control but a 50kg dog playfully bounding at a child would send them flying if they collide.
Ah but they love children, sure they are just saying hello. I know this isn't you but it happens.

The rules are there because some dogs and their owners are causing hassle so they've had to clamp down on everyone

Being in Mayo, Michael Ring is your man if you want to escalate this. Tourism and Sport

Roaster

I agree with Chances on this and commonsense should prevail. I have two little rascals myself and most of the time they are perfectly fine with other dogs but a couple of times they've come across other dogs and for one reason or another they haven't gotten along and growling ensues. I just put the lead on and took them away. Both parties were ok with this as they know these things happen.

Now I don't let that situation arise. I always keep an eye on what's in front of me and as soon as I see another dog(s) coming towards me I just put the lead on the dogs, walk by relaxed and let them back off the lead again, no fuss and everyone's happy.

For the record, I'm in Portarlington in Laois and we walk our dogs in a couple of Coillte forests and I can't say I've noticed any signs saying dogs should be on a leash.

doctor evil

I think the saying goes 'commom sense is not all that common'

**Vai**

Chances wrote: »

I never allow my dog to run up to leashed dogs. My rule of thumb with leashed dogs is that there must be a reason the owner keeps them on a leash, so no socialising with them.

Or they are being kept on a leash to be responsibe dog owners and/or to obey the signs you've mentioned. U must be one of the very few dog owners who wont allow unleashed dogs all the freedom they want because almost all my experiences with unleashed dogs have been bad.

Chances

I was a bit shocked to see so many dog owners anti dogs off leash but now it's turned into a people bashing thread as well.
I work with the public and actually, common sense is common. Humanity is common. Friendliness is common. The ability to learn and be reasoned with is common.

We're not such a bad species and I don't know why some persist in thinking we are. We are capable of making intelligent choices and the actions of the worst of us should not be taken as the general standard.
And no, I certainly do not agree that a leashed dog should be the default. Perish the thought. While my dog is leashed he patiently waits until he can be unleashed so he can go back to enjoying his walk. Then he bounds off with his tail in the air to run back and forth between the trees and me. Being leashed on the woods for him would be like bringing a six year old to a play gym and just letting him look at the equipment. So yes, I do consider that I have lost the woods as a place to walk him. It would just frustrate him.

koneko

I'm not sure why you're getting defensive or upset, people are sharing their experiences. A lot of us have had the experience that people don't put enough effort into training their dogs and let them run amok. I really wish that wasn't the case, but often it is. And for those that choose to leash, they shouldn't be made feel bad about it.
There's no people bashing or bad attitude from me... it seems like you don't want people to disagree with you so I'll bow out of the discussion.

Good luck with your campaign, and I hope either way you have a nice place to walk your dog.

ISDW

Chances wrote: »

So both of you would like all dogs to be on leads all of the time? I guess that's why we have democracy and discussion, so that all sides may present their views. I don’t think it’s a very healthy way for a dog to live or for his life to be managed.
I keep my dog on a lead on the public road as there is a danger from cars but the woods are so safe for him it bothers me to even consider leashing him. Not to even mention how much less exercise he would get attached to a leash
I never allow my dog to run up to leashed dogs. My rule of thumb with leashed dogs is that there must be a reason the owner keeps them on a leash, so no socialising with them.
However, when I meet leashed dogs straining in an aggressive manner and an owner who is holding on with gritted teeth, I would not class that dog as under control. Restrained is not the same as under control.
Also, my dog is people indifferent. I have to hold him and make chit chat with the small children who want to pet them to try and disguise the fact that he could care less about them and just wants to run off and smell the trees.
I also walk a westie in the woods for my brother sometimes. He's on the leash at all times as he has no recall and no dog sense. That’s the kind of common sense I’m talking about having. Most dog walkers I encounter seem to have that common sense also. Maybe I’m just lucky.
And yes, we see animals in the fields as we walk. He could care less. Maybe I have the world’s most well behaved dog. I dunno. Maybe I’m just responsible.

As to your point about dog sledding, I can imagine unleashed children would be as great a potential danger as unleashed dogs. They can get quite a distance from their parents. Should we tie everything down? Just all stay home? I find it hard to believe that unleashed dogs are the greatest hazard with dog sleighs. What if you met twenty joggers coming towards you? A child on a bicycle? Wheelchair users? I dunno. My lack of knowledge of the speeds and reaction times involved in dog sledding make this difficult for me to get into.

That is the reason Coillte have given, so why would I not believe them? I didn't say that they were the greatest hazard, that is why Coillte won't give permission. Also, kids, joggers, wheelchair users don't tend to run up to the dogs and harass them. We don't use sleighs usually by the way, not enough snow:D

Your dog sounds great, but you must know that not all dogs, or all owners are like that. I think its great to let dogs off lead and for them to have a good run around, but unfortunately irresponsible dog owners have obviously spoilt this now in this particular area. Its probably too close to a town for this kind of freedom for a dog unfortunately.

Best of luck with your campaign. Of course you could go and walk the dog really, really early in the morning, or late at night, when there wouldn't be anyone around. Or you could continue to let your dog off the lead, if its well behaved, then nobody will ever complain about you, so how will Coillte know?

Chances

Thanks ISDW

My brother walks really early in the woods. I had considered that. However he says the woods are always busy. Different groups of people use it at different times, that’s all.
I go to the woods to relax and have a good time with the dog. Not to make a political statement by walking an unleashed dog against the wishes of the forest management. Yes, I’m one of those law compliant people who are being restricted and bound in by laws that are probably designed to catch people who will never obey them.
And the strange thing is, I very rarely have problems with other dogs ever, like the rest of you say you do. Yes, there’s an occasional growl at him, not from him, he’s a bottom of the pack type, and I would be devastated if my dog was ever hurt badly by another dog, however I will be even more devastated if less and less freedom is allowed to dogs to run and play naturally. It would put me off dog ownership entirely.

Koneko, I am not asking you to bow out of the discussion, but I am disagreeing with you that there is such a dog aggression problem that all dogs should be leashed as a default measure. I do not agree with that. Neither am I asking you to not to share your stories. I am just saying that in my opinion, a healthy dog needs to be allowed to run off leash. Please do not leave the discussion for fear of upsetting me. I’m a big girl now. J I am upset at the restrictions placed upon my dog. I am not for silencing your opinions.

ppink

Chances wrote: »

I appreciate the responsibilities dog owners have, but we must also be allowed places to let our animals run freely.

Our dogs need places to run.

Should we all be entitled to have our animals run freely? Which ones, when and where?

Chances wrote: »

I don’t think it’s a very healthy way for a dog to live or for his life to be managed.
I keep my dog on a lead on the public road as there is a danger from cars but the woods are so safe for him it bothers me to even consider leashing him. Not to even mention how much less exercise he would get attached to a leash
I never allow my dog to run up to leashed dogs. My rule of thumb with leashed dogs is that there must be a reason the owner keeps them on a leash, so no socialising with them.
However, when I meet leashed dogs straining in an aggressive manner and an owner who is holding on with gritted teeth, I would not class that dog as under control. Restrained is not the same as under control.

the woods are safe for him, what about others? like you used the example of a child running in front of ISDW's sleigh then what if your dog runs in front of a childs bike?


I have walked a lot in Belleek woods and it is a lovely place but it is highly trafficked. I met busloads of children up there on their nature walks along with people running, picnicing and biking.
Fab place but too highly trafficked imo to leave any dogs off the lead.

ISDW

For those of us who own northern breeds, or restricted breeds, our dogs live their lives on the leash, only being let off in private or securely fenced land. They have a good life, a lot of husky owners get 100ft leads, so that their dog has the freedom to run around, but they are still on a lead and can be called back. Now trying to use a 100 ft lead in a forest could be a bit problematic:D

Maybe you need to rethink this lack of exercise on a leash. You just need to walk further to ensure he gets the same amount of exercise. I have seen on other fora the opinion that people that let their dogs off lead to run around are lazy, as they then don't have to do the exercise with the dog. Not my opinion, just passing on what other people think.

**Vai**

Chances, u say u would be devastated if your dog ever got hurt but surely u can see that letting what u say is a submissive dog get into a situation where other dogs are growling at him/her is the fastest way to getting your dog hurt? I hope it never happens as its horrible when any dog gets hurt but when your dog is by your side the chances of an attack are lessened. As ISDW said about RB dogs, my GSD cannot be let off leash in woods or anywhere else that isnt my property and she has a fine life with plenty of exercise.

ppink

I wonder if it is exercise or sniffing time that people leave their dogs off. I will take mine occasionaly to pretty deserted woods for a 10 min ramble actually through the wood to sniff around. It may sound crazy but it used to be the highlight of the trip to the woods for my dogs and now I can no longer do the 2 hour hikes with them I do take them just for a short ramble to in my eyes satisfy their instinct for a good snoop around!

I use flexi leads though, just in case!

**Vai**

Yeah I usually let my 2 off to the end of their leash for some sniffing time but only if they have behaved on their walk! I use a flexi for my terrier but my arm would be pulled off if the GSD ever got that far away from me.

ISDW

I don't really like flexis - a bad experience with my niece holding one, accidently letting it go, it bounced as it wound itself back in and flew up and hit a woman in the face:(

Anyhoo, I have a horse lunge lead at the moment, one of my dogs loves swimming, so it allows him to go in deep enough without me having to go with him

**Vai**

ISDW wrote: »

I don't really like flexis - a bad experience with my niece holding one, accidently letting it go, it bounced as it wound itself back in and flew up and hit a woman in the face:(

Ouch! I got the clip end in the knee when the girlfriend let it go without realising it was gonna retract at pace. Air was fairly blue for a few minutes that night

ppink

god you would get some belt with a flexi in the face:(. I did have an "incident" with one where I was literally blown up in the air like I had been hit by lightening......ended up coming down head first....wellies flying everywhere:eek:.
I only have them on the 2 girls...one is only 6 inches high so she is fine:p and the other is my spondylosis girl.

the lunging rein is a good idea for the swimming. i did try one for the walking but I was just not quick enough letting it out and gathering it and ended up tripping the poor dog several times, so went back to the flexi.

EGAR

RB's are totally banned from Coillte lands and you are worried about leash laws there??

ppink

EGAR wrote: »

RB's are totally banned from Coillte lands and you are worried about leash laws there??

since when?? the only signs up at our woods are no scramblers or quads

ISDW

EGAR wrote: »

RB's are totally banned from Coillte lands and you are worried about leash laws there??

I thought it was from some, not all?

EGAR

Application of Bye-laws.
3. (1) These Bye-laws apply to those Coillte lands in respect of which a
Notice of Application of Bye-laws has been posted in a visible location where
the public might reasonably gain entrance to those lands.

This is the bye-law as it stand at present. The Coillte boss around here told me there are moves underfoot to make it nationwide and the signs are ordered.

ISDW

EGAR wrote: »

Application of Bye-laws.
3. (1) These Bye-laws apply to those Coillte lands in respect of which a
Notice of Application of Bye-laws has been posted in a visible location where
the public might reasonably gain entrance to those lands.

This is the bye-law as it stand at present. The Coillte boss around here told me there are moves underfoot to make it nationwide and the signs are ordered.

Yeah, thats what I thought, where they are posted.

Bad news if they're going nationwide. Still, have a bit of hope, Coillte is such a fragmented organisation, it may not happen.:rolleyes: What do they think they will achieve from this? Drive dog owners underground, how does that help anybody?

littlebug

EGAR wrote: »

RB's are totally banned from Coillte lands and you are worried about leash laws there??

Surely any on-leash law would negate any perceived need for banning RBs altogether or is this only in Mayo?

I have seen the signs in Mayo Coillte lands. I was in Clonbur woods this morning and my dog was the only one on lead.

Cherry Blossom

There are signs up everywhere around Ards Forest park, no quads, no scramblers, no bicycles, no horses, no dogs off lead. I usually hang around till there's no one around and let my dog off for a good gallop around the beach area to 'kill' seaweed for half an hour. If I ever manage to find an access route that they've missed with the signs where I can get a horse in all bets are off

Shanao

EGAR wrote: »

Application of Bye-laws.
3. (1) These Bye-laws apply to those Coillte lands in respect of which a
Notice of Application of Bye-laws has been posted in a visible location where
the public might reasonably gain entrance to those lands.

This is the bye-law as it stand at present. The Coillte boss around here told me there are moves underfoot to make it nationwide and the signs are ordered.

Uh-oh, looks like I've been inadvertently breaking the law again. The wood we go to is Coillte land and I never realised RBs weren't allowed. Ah well, we're always the ones with our dogs on lead down there anyway. Anyone else down there doesn't seem to care too much about the signs. Which results in hassle for us of course, especially when a collie wont bugger off and stop following us. Owner of course was walking on ahead, called the dog once and then walked off, leaving the dog with us!!

When we take them to the river, they're put on 30ft leads to give them plenty of space, of course when there's no one else around.

ISDW

Shanao wrote: »

Uh-oh, looks like I've been inadvertently breaking the law again. The wood we go to is Coillte land and I never realised RBs weren't allowed. Ah well, we're always the ones with our dogs on lead down there anyway. Anyone else down there doesn't seem to care too much about the signs. Which results in hassle for us of course, especially when a collie wont bugger off and stop following us. Owner of course was walking on ahead, called the dog once and then walked off, leaving the dog with us!!

When we take them to the river, they're put on 30ft leads to give them plenty of space, of course when there's no one else around.

If the signs aren't up at the entrance to the land, then you're not breaking the law. It doesn't apply (yet:mad:) to all Coillte properties, just those displaying the relevant bye laws.