The Ethics of PUA

Sleepy

Another thought on this topic: isn't all social behaviour learned?

If I remember correctly, children learn social behaviours through observing those around them. The differences in what constitutes socially acceptable behaviour in different countries (e.g. amount of personal space) would certainly support this.

If we're to take those men who are naturally most successful with women and break what they do down into a simplified repeatable formula are we simply to think of PUA "game" as remedial classes for socially challenged men?

gargleblaster

Thanks for starting this thread liah, it has been most depressing, informative and helpful.

And thanks also to Waking-Dreams for his post. Very refreshing despite the depressing subject.

SugarHigh

Sleepy wrote: »

Another thought on this topic: isn't all social behaviour learned?

If I remember correctly, children learn social behaviours through observing those around them. The differences in what constitutes socially acceptable behaviour in different countries (e.g. amount of personal space) would certainly support this.

If we're to take those men who are naturally most successful with women and break what they do down into a simplified repeatable formula are we simply to think of PUA "game" as remedial classes for socially challenged men?

Another thought? Your point has already been made at least 20 times in this thread.

Wolfe Tone

gargleblaster wrote: »

Thanks for starting this thread liah, it has been most depressing, informative and helpful.

And thanks also to Waking-Dreams for his post. Very refreshing despite the depressing subject.

How is it depressing?

gargleblaster

It's only depressing for personal reasons which I'd rather not go into in such a public place, sorry. It was very informative and helped me to see the stuff as it is meant and not through the distorted lens I'd seen it through before, so it has been very good to read, despite the personal stuff. I really should have just edited that out actually.

It wasn't me!

Whatever about the ethics, it's just not in line with how I can honestly conduct myself. Any time I've been interested in someone, I've had friends telling me every damn thing under the sun. What to say, when to text or call, when not to, how to come across. For me, that's just not what I'm trying to do. It's not like me, and if I'm hoping someone is going to be attracted to me, why would I act like someone else? I don't flirt, I can't use any sort of line or ice breaker. I can't approach strangers because I've got nothing to be interested in. Have to actually know them somewhat before I can be attracted to them. When I'm attracted to someone, I'll try gauge whether they reciprocate, and then I'm up front about it. Maybe it's harder than having some sort of "system", but I wouldn't feel right doing anything else. That said, it's not exactly a roaring success of any sort either, but while the PUA stuff may have success on its side, I just couldn't do it.

SugarHigh

It wasn't me! wrote: »

if I'm hoping someone is going to be attracted to me, why would I act like someone else?

Fair enough I get what you mean by this but you maybe you could PUA and still be yourself.

Are you really getting your personality across with what you are doing now?
Maybe it feels like you are but I doubt it try and imagine how they are perceiving you. What info are you giving them to base their opinions of you on? I think it's really difficult to get a personalty across in a situation like that so whats the harm in using something from a book that you know will get you to the next stage? Where hopefully you can get your personality across. You said yourself you're not being given the chance to do this.

I do think you need to approach a girl a certain way in a nightclub to get anywhere, no matter what your personality is like. From the sounds of it you aren't doing much when you approach a girl so you are just coming across as mundane and forgettable which you might not be, but how is she supposed to see your personality if you aren't doing anything?

I'm not even saying you need to read PUA but you are definitely going to have to be me more proactive. It's kind of like sitting in the corner on your own and just expecting your personality to magically travel around the room for you.

This might seem like a silly example but try and see if you can communicate what song is playing in your head by tapping it out on a desk. It will feel to you as if you are playing the song well and it should be obvious to guess but I bet they won't because all they can hear is thud! thud! thud!. Essentially your brain is filling in the gaps of the song in your head but you aren't communicating whats going on in your head to other person so how can they possibly know what song it is?

I think this happens a lot with peoples personalities, if you aren't communicating anything how are they supposed to know what you are like?

I'm not sure if PUA can help people communicate this because I still haven't read it but if it at least gives you the confidence to not be a wallflower it will surely help.

It wasn't me!

I'm not meeting people in nightclubs. Hate the damn things. People I meet are through social situations outside clubs and the like. The odd time I do end up in a club, as I say, I have no interest in getting to know people, because I don't know anything about them. And no, the PUA stuff is not being myself, at all. It's a projection of something I'm absolutely not. I'm not a wallflower. When I'm interested in someone, I'll tell them, but I'm not going to read books on how to do this, and I'm not interested in them if I don't know anything about them, and I have no interest in going somewhere specifically to try and find someone to shag and hope they turn out to be worth having around in the first place. If being upfront with people isn't particularly successful, so be it, but that's me at least, and not an instruction manual.

donfers

liah wrote: »

PUA being, of course, Pick Up Artistry, e.g. The Game.

As a potential target of PUA, it unnerves me. Quite a lot, actually. When reading material and terms such as "HB10" (meaning, a "hot body"/girl who's a 10), "target," "k/f/#-close" (kiss/fuck/number "close," i.e. how they ended the encounter), "alpha," "beta," "negging" (insulting a girl to "validate" her), "canned openers," "prize," etc. it strikes me as relentlessly manipulative. It's like turning meeting women into a hunt, or a military strategy. To me, it seems dehumanizing, predatory, selfish, arrogant, and very, very creepy. I would absolutely hate to find out I had been the prey of a player, and frankly it's putting me off dating completely because I just don't want to take the risk.

A lot of men will claim that it teaches otherwise shy/socially inept guys how to socialize by giving them an easy, step-by-step guide to becoming confident and learning how to approach women. Personally, my view is that this is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Teaching men to view women as "targets," teaching them how to deliver canned lines and how to say/do something to receive x result, teaching them to manipulate women into bed - none of these seem positive to me, and in fact can be potentially incredibly destructive to everyone the player of the game comes in contact with. It's effectively teaching these poor guys to lie about themselves and to lie to other people for momentary gratification. It's effectively teaching them that women are all the same - dumb and easy to manipulate to get sex, and that their only real purpose is sex. It seems incredibly unhealthy, as anything built on lies and dehumanization tends to be.

But enough about what I think - what are your views on the ethics of Pick Up Artistry? Do you think it's predatory, dehumanizing and manipulative, or do you think it's doing a good deed in helping shy guys build much-needed confidence?

I wouldn't worry too much about it, if anybody is doing it well then you won't have a clue they are engaging in it, if they are doing it badly and are transparent then no doubt you'll tell them where to go

personally i wouldn't bother with it but i don't see it any great problem with it, it's just a form of styling your communication, enough of that shoite goes on in the business/medical/showbiz/sporting worlds so it's no surprise that a specific form of communication that deems to make one successful in the dating sphere exists

there's an argument that if you are dumb enough to fall for it or participate in it then you should be responsible for what ensues

we all bull**** to a certain degree anyway and add a gloss to how we portray ourselves now and then, perhaps highlighting certain things and turning a blind eye to others...pua just takes this to a whole new level and is more specific and detailed....the only reason it is being discussed perhaps is because it targets a group that in my opinion seeks to exploit "being offended" or "oppressed by the patriarchy" quite a lot = educated young women, if have your wits about you, you'll see right through it, nothing to worry about, no worse than girls trying to get drinks out of guys by pretending to like them/want their company until the drink is drunk or targetting richer more famous guys (if any individual poster denies that they have ever done it, well that doesn't negate the fact that some women often do this) ....just the shameless politics of a night out

Scanlas The 2nd

I'm reading a book right now called "Get laid or Die Trying". It's like "The Game" but a different PUA wrote it. If you want to understand how manipulative a PUA can be or anyone fearing being manipulated by PUAs then read this book. He uses it for manipulation 100% in the beginning and makes no excuses, but as the years go by he says the manipulation has a corrosive effect on his relationships so he eventually decides to quit the manipulation and use it for good instead. Also probably the funniest book I can remember reading.

Anyway, even the most unethical PUAs (who are good at it), genuinely become more attractive to women. They have options with women, they are more dominant, more confident, funnier and they have better social skills and influencing abilities.

When women wear make-up, high heels, hair extensions etc the are purposefully deceiving people as to how attractive they are. They aren't genuinely more attractive when they do these things as opposed to PUAs who do genuinley become more attractive.

Elle Collins

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

...as opposed to PUAs who do genuinley become more attractive.

LOL - what a load of balls! :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Elle Collins wrote: »

LOL - what a load of balls! :rolleyes:

It is true up to a point, but only in the sense that saying don't pick your nose in front of a woman makes that man more attractive by simply not doing that.

Ultimately these things are like presentations on how to give presentations, you know the stuff you can do to improve public speaking skills. Be assertive, talk with confidence, don't talk to slow, or too fast, pause at particular points.

All these things will make you a better public speaker and thus make it easier for people to listen to your presentations. What they won't do is improve the substance of presentation.

Which is why all these techniques fall away when someone actually starts a relationship and finds that no one has told them how to be successful at that.

Scanlas The 2nd

Wicknight wrote: »

It is true up to a point, but only in the sense that saying don't pick your nose in front of a woman makes that man more attractive by simply not doing that.

Ultimately these things are like presentations on how to give presentations, you know the stuff you can do to improve public speaking skills. Be assertive, talk with confidence, don't talk to slow, or too fast, pause at particular points.

All these things will make you a better public speaker and thus make it easier for people to listen to your presentations. What they won't do is improve the substance of presentation.

Which is why all these techniques fall away when someone actually starts a relationship and finds that no one has told them how to be successful at that.

Very true if you said that 6-10 years ago. It's been figured out how to transform unattractive men into attractive men without all the canned material. The suff from the game is antiquated at this stage. The seduction community has moved on a lot since then. Most companies are teaching natural game now where students don't rely on rehearsed material. It takes time but you can fundamentally change a man from the inside to be naturally more attractive. Take away a man's base level of anxiety, withwhich he walks through the world, teach him how to flirt and how women work and he's good for life without anything canned.

K-9

leggo wrote: »

The concepts you refer to do not encourage men to see themselves as better than women. Just equal. Hence the 'needing confidence' part that is core to its existence.

And as for being viewed as the 'prize'? Surely you'd love to be seen as a prize by a boyfriend, i.e. Something worth fighting for. If you perceive that as being a sexual conquest...take that up with individuals and not the practise as a whole.

That's what I would have gotten from it. When you lack the confidence to chat up a girl you fancy or move to the next level you don't feel equal. Having being in a long term relationship I'd kind of forgotten the whole chatting up thing and some of this stuff helps.

SugarHigh wrote: »

Nah I definitely think it promotes the denigration of women. That's why it works.

PUA is clearly bad for women but good for men. Liah you keep claiming it's unhealthy but haven't really backed that up. From what I can gather these guys lives get improved by being able to pick up women.

Well I think the denigrating parts aren't great and I don't see the need for it. I think being confident and slagging is better than some of the stuff spouted by PUA's, the cocky and arrogant stuff.

SugarHigh

Elle Collins wrote: »

LOL - what a load of balls! :rolleyes:

If they don't become more attractive to women how do they get more than when they didn't do PUA?

Zombrex

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Very true if you said that 6-10 years ago. It's been figured out how to transform unattractive men into attractive men without all the canned material. The suff from the game is antiquated at this stage. The seduction community has moved on a lot since then. Most companies are teaching natural game now where students don't rely on rehearsed material. It takes time but you can fundamentally change a man from the inside to be naturally more attractive. Take away a man's base level of anxiety, withwhich he walks through the world, teach him how to flirt and how women work and he's good for life without anything canned.

I agree that you can teach this, how successful it will be I'm not sure.

I think if someone is interested in genuinely increasing confidence and assertiveness and decreasing anxiety they are better off with a councilor who will tackle the persons actual issues rather than a "seduction expert" who is merely teaching them how to fake it.

Scanlas The 2nd

Wicknight wrote: »

I agree that you can teach this, how successful it will be I'm not sure.

I think if someone is interested in genuinely increasing confidence and assertiveness and decreasing anxiety they are better off with a councilor who will tackle the persons actual issues rather than a "seduction expert" who is merely teaching them how to fake it.

They are taught how to actually get confidence by more effective means that I've ever come across from a councilor. They are taught meditation, presence, approaching again and again in a ridiculous fashion to be rejected on purpose, as well as numerous drills which really do work and transform an individual from the inside out. Councilors from what I can tell aren't practical and as realistic as the seduction experts ( The good ones, not the cowboys).

Now of course for the men with serious issues they should see a councillor and I think a good seduction expert would advise him to see one.

Zombrex

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

They are taught how to actually get confidence by more effective means that I've ever come across from a councilor. They are taught meditation, presence, approaching again and again in a ridiculous fashion to be rejected on purpose, as well as numerous drills which really do work and transform an individual from the inside out. Councilors from what I can tell aren't practical and as realistic as the seduction experts ( The good ones, not the cowboys).

Yes but the seduction experts do not tackle any underlying problems or issues. It is simply Do this and this will happen

I agree that having successful encounters will in itself boost confidence, but I'm not sure in a particularly healthy way. I can easily see someone believing that it is the technique is what is working rather than the person themselves.

I would be very interested how many of these men who got to these courses and have initial success are able to hold down long term relationships without all their issues with confidence disrupting these.

I some times feel that men with trouble talking to women think that if they just get a date or get a girlfriend everything will be fine, when in fact that is when the actual hard bit starts.

Thought to be honest I'm not an expert in what they do, so if some of them are more about helping the person's personality issues than just teaching them in a Do this this will happen sort of way, then that is better than nothing I guess.

Scanlas The 2nd

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes but the seduction experts do not tackle any underlying problems or issues. It is simply Do this and this will happen

I agree that having successful encounters will in itself boost confidence, but I'm not sure in a particularly healthy way. I can easily see someone believing that it is the technique is what is working rather than the person themselves.

I would be very interested how many of these men who got to these courses and have initial success are able to hold down long term relationships without all their issues with confidence disrupting these.

I some times feel that men with trouble talking to women think that if they just get a date or get a girlfriend everything will be fine, when in fact that is when the actual hard bit starts.

Thought to be honest I'm not an expert in what they do, so if some of them are more about helping the person's personality issues than just teaching them in a Do this this will happen sort of way, then that is better than nothing I guess.

I'd say it's like the gym, most lose the wil power after a while and give up and couldn't be bothered.

Some men that go to these courses are already very confident, they aren't good with women, some are already good with women but want to be better with women so they can get more attractive women. As far as I'm aware there is a wide varieity of men who take these courses. From CEOs, Doctors to your average bloke. I think Orlando Bloom to a bootcamp if I'm not mistaken. I know "the streets" got taught this stuff. They're in youtube being taught in a park in london.

Elle Collins

SugarHigh wrote: »

If they don't become more attractive to women how do they get more than when they didn't do PUA?

If it's true that they do I reckon that's explained by the abundance of dizzy women out there SugerHigh. Any woman with half a brain in her head who's been round the block a few times can spot these men coming before they arrive. I've had a few of these fools trying to run their 'game' on me. They're out-and-out saddos and have no idea how obvious they are. The 'seduction community' lol :rolleyes:

RedXIV

Elle Collins wrote: »

If it's true that they do I reckon that's explained by the abundance of dizzy women out there SugerHigh. Any woman with half a brain in her head who's been round the block a few times can spot these men coming before they arrive. I've had a few of these fools trying to run their 'game' on me. They're out-and-out saddos and have no idea how obvious they are. The 'seduction community' lol :rolleyes:

Actually its simple numbers.

If you previously would go out for a night and approach one girl all night, obviously your success rate isn't going to be very high. PUA teaches the confidence to approach girls more and more so obviously the odds increase to become more successful. See? simple numbers

Once again though I would like to say that anyone who's read the stuff isn't going to come out with the preplanned lines etc. The trick is getting to the stage that you're simply comfortable talking to women.

I think the generalisation is a bit harsh and inaccurate because once someone has gotten what they need out of it, they don't need the lines etc. they'll talk naturally. And if you think everyone who talks naturally to you is an "out and out saddo", well thats just a bit sad.

I'd like to point out once again I myself looked into this and I'm in a very happy relationship now so please don't judge us all as sleazeballs

Scanlas The 2nd

Elle Collins wrote: »

If it's true that they do I reckon that's explained by the abundance of dizzy women out there SugerHigh. Any woman with half a brain in her head who's been round the block a few times can spot these men coming before they arrive. I've had a few of these fools trying to run their 'game' on me. They're out-and-out saddos and have no idea how obvious they are. The 'seduction community' lol :rolleyes:

How do you know they learned stuff from the seduction community? If they did they were doing it wrong.

For the same reason you can't help but view these men as saddos is the reason you can't help to be attracted to a man having practiced and learned PUA properly. You can't help but be turned off by these men because they are sending you signals of low status and a lack of success with women. When a PUA does his stuff well he sends you signals that he is high status and that he has options with women. You can't help but be attracted to him. That's not to say he will definitely seduce you. I'm sure you know yourself that there are men you are attracted to that you wish you weren't but you can't help it. Leaning back when chatting you up is one small signal that says a man is high status and has success with women. Are you going to shout PUA everytime a man leans back.

Elle Collins

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I'm sure you know yourself that there are men you are attracted to that you wish you weren't but you can't help it.

This is exactly the type of delusional thinking that PUA philosophy teaches men, and it is exactly what I find objectionable, so thank you for the helpful example.

The honest truth Scanlas is that I have never in my life wished I was not attracted to a man I was attracted to, nor have I ever, after the fact, even for a single moment regretted any attraction I've ever had or anything that came of it. PUA, to me, (and to any savvy woman, I believe) is simply laughable.

Scanlas The 2nd

Elle Collins wrote: »

This is exactly the type of delusional thinking that PUA philosophy teaches men, and it is exactly what I find objectionable, so thank you for the helpful example.

The honest truth Scanlas is that I have never in my life wished I was not attracted to a man I was attracted to, nor have I ever, after the fact, even for a single moment regretted any attraction I've ever had or anything that came of it. PUA, to me, (and to any savvy woman, I believe) is simply laughable.

Well at least it gave you a laugh if nothing else.

Elle Collins

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Well at least it gave you a laugh, there's one good thing you got out of it.

Well, there are different types of laughs as you know Scanlas, and some are more amusing than others..

Elle Collins

Lol, what was wrong with saying there was one good thing I got out of it?

Scanlas The 2nd

Elle Collins wrote: »

Lol, what was wrong with saying there was one good thing I got out of it?

It sounded like you used it yourself. I wouldn't be that cruel to you.

leggo

Elle Collins wrote: »

If it's true that they do I reckon that's explained by the abundance of dizzy women out there SugerHigh. Any woman with half a brain in her head who's been round the block a few times can spot these men coming before they arrive. I've had a few of these fools trying to run their 'game' on me. They're out-and-out saddos and have no idea how obvious they are. The 'seduction community' lol :rolleyes:

With respect Elle, that post sounds more defensive than anything. Giving that the only position people attack from, naturally, is a defensive one.

I get why women wouldn't like the idea of pick-up with perceptions out there as they are. If said perceptions were true, I wouldn't blame them. But every single woman I've ever sat down with and talked through it has either appreciated it, or in the case of generally feminist types who begrudge men having any kind of differing opinion, quietly remained within their prejudices because they knew that opening their mouth would open them up to the possibility of being proven wrong.

If you want to have a constructive debate on the matter, I'd be happy to as long as you provide some sensible points as to why you feel this way. Otherwise, please exit the conversation via option B because calling an entire group of people who engage in this for a variety of reasons 'saddos' is little more than blatant trolling. Unfortunately, pick-up is an easy target so generalisations like this often go unpunished.

Zombrex

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I'd say it's like the gym, most lose the wil power after a while and give up and couldn't be bothered.

Some men that go to these courses are already very confident, they aren't good with women, some are already good with women but want to be better with women so they can get more attractive women.

That is sort of my point. To a professional councilor helping the man "get" women would not be considered the goal, as this is rather short sighted in terms of developing healthy romantic relationships.

The fact that so many men seem to focus simply on the "getting" part would re-enforce my point about the idea that all they have to do is get them to start going out with them and everything will be clear sailing from there.

This is rather naive. The real issues in a relationship manifest themselves further down the line. Pick up artists do nothing for men trying to handle these.

Zombrex

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

How do you know they learned stuff from the seduction community? If they did they were doing it wrong.

For the same reason you can't help but view these men as saddos is the reason you can't help to be attracted to a man having practiced and learned PUA properly. You can't help but be turned off by these men because they are sending you signals of low status and a lack of success with women. When a PUA does his stuff well he sends you signals that he is high status and that he has options with women. You can't help but be attracted to him.

That works on the assumption that this can be faked as well as genuine confidence and charisma.

This I think is naive. There is a huge difference between someone who is acting in a particular way based on how someone has explained to them they should act, and someone who is acting a particular way because that is the natural way they feel to act.

By definition these guys are not naturally acting like this, that is why they go to pick up artists in the first place. It shouldn't be surprising that women say they can spot the difference pretty easily.