Why are there so many young women with low self-confidence

Irish Fire

I honestly think girls are media programmed to ask themselves "am I good enough for him". Whereas we all know it's the other way around. Am I right? I really don't know but I'd like to as I will have this problem in a few years with my little one.

I am a friend

bget wrote: »

Young women need to start putting themselves first and stop tying their self concept and self worth to their success (or lack thereof) with men but focus on being happy with themselves and address their own individual reasons for having low self esteem..

+ 1000%

This is my thinking in a nut shell... All the focus seems to be on men and how to keep the men even when they are treating them badly...

You see so many threads asking 'I slept with him last night..... does he like me?' where they should be asking 'do I like him?'.... In so many cases, girls seem to be entirely focussed on whether or not someone wants them as opposed to taking the time to figure if this person would be a good partner for them....

I am old enough now to know my own mind (at last thankfully) and know what I will or will not put up with... Maybe its experience but I wish younger women who struggle with their confidence would have the same conviction in themselves....

Eve_Dublin

I am a friend wrote: »

+ 1000%

This is my thinking in a nut shell... All the focus seems to be on men and how to keep the men even when they are treating them badly...

You see so many threads asking 'I slept with him last night..... does he like me?' where they should be asking 'do I like him?'.... In so many cases, girls seem to be entirely focussed on whether or not someone wants them as opposed to taking the time to figure if this person would be a good partner for them....

I am old enough now to know my own mind (at last thankfully) and know what I will or will not put up with... Maybe its experience but I wish younger women who struggle with their confidence would have the same conviction in themselves....

But I think you also have to get a bit of perspective here and remember people with post up here if they have an issue. This is only a small proportion of Boards users hence a tiny percentage of the population of young women in Ireland. I don't think it's fair to label all young women as emotionally insecure about relationships with the opposite sex just from reading what's posted up here on this forum. Most Irish men don't hate Irish women in my experience in the real world but if you took your views on what they feel from AH, you'd believe otherwise.

Ickle Magoo

I am a friend wrote: »

You see so many threads asking 'I slept with him last night..... does he like me?' where they should be asking 'do I like him?'.... In so many cases, girls seem to be entirely focussed on whether or not someone wants them as opposed to taking the time to figure if this person would be a good partner for them....

How many secure and happy people are going to require relationship advice though? Life advice even? Of course it's going to be weighted towards those clearly having difficulties.

I also think it's unfair to take from the question "does he like me" that their first priority wasn't already that they like the fella - I mean, presumably they wouldn't be bothered whether he was interested in them unless they had already come to the conclusion they like him?

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I am a friend

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

This is only a small proportion of Boards users hence a tiny percentage of the population of young women in Ireland. I don't think it's fair to label all young women as emotionally insecure about relationships with the opposite sex just from reading what's posted up here on this forum.

Nobody labelled all young women the same. In my intial post, I specifically detailed that the comment was on foot of comments made by girls who post on boards...

I am a friend

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I also think it's unfair to take from the question "does he like me" that their first priority wasn't already that they like the fella - I mean, presumably they wouldn't be bothered whether he was interested in them unless they had already come to the conclusion they like him?

Yep I see your point, I guess I meant that even if he treats them badly, a lot of people (generalisation) tend to try and fix the problem/ change themselves to suit him, rather than sit back and see if he deserves them.

Ickle Magoo

I see what you mean...my standard advice to people who aren't happy in a relationship they have tried fixing is to walk away - and I'm often told (online & in RL) that I'm too harsh and that people should be trying all-sorts to band aid their relationships. I'm not sure why there is such a desperation to put up with a less than happy/equal/fun relationship just for the sake of having a relationship...I guess it's easier to stay and hope than make the break?

Emme

Interesting thread and it isn't just young women who have low self-confidence. There are many women in their 30s up going through exactly the same thing. Indeed, there is a bigger stigma attached to a woman being single after 35, you're seen as damaged goods that nobody wants.

It makes me sad to see young women in their teens and twenties putting themselves through hell when they're gorgeous, in the prime of their lives and have no excuse for putting up with bad treatment. They also seem to put themselves through more hoops for guys in terms of appearance - in my teens and twenties a pair of jeans, a rugby shirt/t-shirt and docs was the standard gear for going out! Fake tan was only worn by David Copperfield. Botox was a deadly poison and cosmetic surgery was something that only existed in Hollywood.

I am a friend

Emme wrote: »

Interesting thread and it isn't just young women who have low self-confidence. There are many women in their 30s up going through exactly the same thing.

I was considering 30's young

Emme

I am a friend wrote: »

I was considering 30's young

OK, I was considering teens and twenties young. Thirties are young too I guess! But there are also women in their 40s and upwards who have low self-confidence, often those who have been through a divorce and face the dating scene after an absence of many years. It can really throw them and sometimes the dating scene itself is more of a knock-back than the actual divorce. Sad.

boomkatalog

My confidence is pretty low, I'm aware that I'm not an unattractive girl but I can't help but feel ugly a lot of the time. Why?

-Tactless comments from my mother
-Bullying as a teenager
-Barbies (I really couldn't understand when I hit puberty why I didn't start looking like I had DD boobs with no ribs and incredibly long legs, having played with nothing but barbies throughout my childhood)
-An obsession with weight which developed in school having learned about "the right weight for your height" which doesn't take any factors into consideration.
-Being cheated on by multiple partners (however I don't believe all men will cheat, and I have complete trust in my partner, but it does shatter your confidence when it happens)


I wonder though is it a predominantly female thing? Do a large part of the population of young men not feel self-conscious too?


Sometimes I wonder too do all the products available to us make it worse. There's so many things available to women to improve their looks, false nails, eyelashes, tan, makeup, hair straightners/curlers/crimpers, I used to think we were lucky and it was easier to hide our imperfections but sometimes I wish everyone would just look natural, so when I go on a night out with my average eyelashes and extremely pale legs I don't feel incredibly ugly dancing beside the girl with the spray on tan, fake lashes and nails etc. Not a criticism of people who use them, I do it myself too, anything to improve how I look when I feel low. Just think we'd all feel under a lot less pressure if we all gave them up together!

Edit: I love this ad so much! Especially as I was so into the Barbies

hatrickpatrick

I've been trying to get one of my best friends to ditch this guy she's been "sort of" dating / fooling around with for the last few months. He repeatedly cheats on her, doesn't text her back, leaves her hanging, messes with her head, and then somehow convinces her that it's HER fault!!!

Why is it that when some girls get treated like crap, it just makes the more attracted to the guy? Is it some kind of ingrained masochism or is it more a defiant sort of "I will NOT accept that he doesn't like me, I'll MAKE him like me"... Or something else entirely?

I really don't get it. I know this isn't an isolated case, I hear of it all the time. As a guy, the following sentence makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever: "He's such a jerk to me... But I love him!!!" - if a girl treats me like crap I walk away and don't look back.

How does it work? It's got me completely baffled and I won't pretend I'm not seriously worried about my friend

PennyLane88

Honestly, i dont know why it happens, but it does. And i'm in the same boat.

I'm in my early twenties, and i've been told on many occasions i'm good looking, but i honestly dont see it. I dont overdo my appearance, i wear minimal makeup and decent clothes, and on nights out i make a better effort. However i still feel like crap most of the time, as i compare myself to my peers, who are bubbly/outgoing/ in relationships. Alot of these people almost look down on me when i say i'm single. But's not out of choice at this stage, i just can't attract someone who is single, and has no baggage


But I have alot of anxiety issues, which results in me having low self esteem. I always make sure i look 'ok', but yet i always attract the same guys - d1ckheads. It doesn't matter where i go or what i do, guys who have girlfriends will try and chat me up, buy a drink, and try their best to get me into bed. And this has happened in 95% of these situations.

This is no exaggeration. Even my mates say i must have some magnet that attracts guys that are already taken. I have no interest in being someones 'bit on the side'. It's degrading, but quite frankly, its the only opportunities that are being thrown my way at the moment.

For example, last weekend, i was out, guy i kinda know started chatting to me, we got on well and he invited himself back to my house for a drink. Fair enough i thought, but i wasnt taking it any further. Got back to my house, we chatted for a while, and then he said 'can i kiss you' So we did, and after that he told me he has a gf but its 'complicated' FFS i thought, here we go again...... he failed to mention his gf, hmmm how convenient.

And what's with this 'complicated' sh1t i'm always told by guys - you're either in a relationship or not, none of this 'complicated' stuff ever washes well with me.

So i rang a taxi for him, and that was that.

This is only one example of at least 10 i could give in the past year.

And my last boyfriend was kinda the same. When i met him, he was 'complicated', but he still pursued me. When they broke up, we got together, and then went on to dump me to get back with her. What a tosser. And they'll break up again and again and he'll continue to see girls without her knowing. Pathetic. And even though he treated me like sh1t off his shoe, i would probably take him back in a heartbeat, as i feel i can do no better, and that's what i'm worth.

I dont care what anyone says, cheating is rife in Ireland. Guys just seem to think its ok to degrade someone like me as a bit on the side.

I'm a friendly person, and i'm always nice to people, however, i seem to get ***holes who think its okay to try and bed me, while their in a relationship.

This is why i often settle for low standards, there seems to be feck all guys with loyalty. So i have to settle for whatever comes my way. In my head i know i can do alot better, but i cant afford to be picky about what i get.

Hence why i have stayed single for most of my late teens/twenties.

At this rate i dont see myself getting married, even though i'd love to. Just not enough decent folk.

And this kinda thing mirrors all aspects of my life - friends that treat me like a doormat, and i've being working in a low skilled job for over a yr now, and i'm too scared to pursue a career with my degree, i just dont feel i'm good enough, and i feel overpowered by people, so i stay in my boring job, and i dont bother looking for work in the field i graduated in.

Depressing really when i see it typed out

Ickle Magoo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've been trying to get one of my best friends to ditch this guy she's been "sort of" dating / fooling around with for the last few months. He repeatedly cheats on her, doesn't text her back, leaves her hanging, messes with her head, and then somehow convinces her that it's HER fault!!!

Why is it that when some girls get treated like crap, it just makes the more attracted to the guy? Is it some kind of ingrained masochism or is it more a defiant sort of "I will NOT accept that he doesn't like me, I'll MAKE him like me"... Or something else entirely?

I really don't get it. I know this isn't an isolated case, I hear of it all the time. As a guy, the following sentence makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever: "He's such a jerk to me... But I love him!!!" - if a girl treats me like crap I walk away and don't look back.

How does it work? It's got me completely baffled and I won't pretend I'm not seriously worried about my friend

Because some people are master manipulators and despite being horrible 90% of the time, they give just enough glimpses of gorgeousness to make their partners think that they truly are sorry and their partners do matter. Now, from the outside we can see it's a load of tosh and we wouldn't put up with that kind of behaviour - but that's why people like that don't go for partners who would make a stand and are strong enough to draw clear boundaries and stick to them - they target vulnerable people who already have low confidence and then systematically start chipping away at it some more until they have their partners believing they love them, they couldn't get anyone else and everybody's relationships are like the one they have.

Eve_Dublin

PennyLane88 wrote: »

Honestly, i dont know why it happens, but it does. And i'm in the same boat.

I'm in my early twenties, and i've been told on many occasions i'm good looking, but i honestly dont see it. I dont overdo my appearance, i wear minimal makeup and decent clothes, and on nights out i make a better effort. However i still feel like crap most of the time, as i compare myself to my peers, who are bubbly/outgoing/ in relationships. Alot of these people almost look down on me when i say i'm single. But's not out of choice at this stage, i just can't attract someone who is single, and has no baggage


But I have alot of anxiety issues, which results in me having low self esteem. I always make sure i look 'ok', but yet i always attract the same guys - d1ckheads. It doesn't matter where i go or what i do, guys who have girlfriends will try and chat me up, buy a drink, and try their best to get me into bed. And this has happened in 95% of these situations.

This is no exaggeration. Even my mates say i must have some magnet that attracts guys that are already taken. I have no interest in being someones 'bit on the side'. It's degrading, but quite frankly, its the only opportunities that are being thrown my way at the moment.

For example, last weekend, i was out, guy i kinda know started chatting to me, we got on well and he invited himself back to my house for a drink. Fair enough i thought, but i wasnt taking it any further. Got back to my house, we chatted for a while, and then he said 'can i kiss you' So we did, and after that he told me he has a gf but its 'complicated' FFS i thought, here we go again...... he failed to mention his gf, hmmm how convenient.

And what's with this 'complicated' sh1t i'm always told by guys - you're either in a relationship or not, none of this 'complicated' stuff ever washes well with me.

So i rang a taxi for him, and that was that.

This is only one example of at least 10 i could give in the past year.

And my last boyfriend was kinda the same. When i met him, he was 'complicated', but he still pursued me. When they broke up, we got together, and then went on to dump me to get back with her. What a tosser. And they'll break up again and again and he'll continue to see girls without her knowing. Pathetic. And even though he treated me like sh1t off his shoe, i would probably take him back in a heartbeat, as i feel i can do no better, and that's what i'm worth.

I dont care what anyone says, cheating is rife in Ireland. Guys just seem to think its ok to degrade someone like me as a bit on the side.

I'm a friendly person, and i'm always nice to people, however, i seem to get ***holes who think its okay to try and bed me, while their in a relationship.

This is why i often settle for low standards, there seems to be feck all guys with loyalty. So i have to settle for whatever comes my way. In my head i know i can do alot better, but i cant afford to be picky about what i get.

Hence why i have stayed single for most of my late teens/twenties.

At this rate i dont see myself getting married, even though i'd love to. Just not enough decent folk.

And this kinda thing mirrors all aspects of my life - friends that treat me like a doormat, and i've being working in a low skilled job for over a yr now, and i'm too scared to pursue a career with my degree, i just dont feel i'm good enough, and i feel overpowered by people, so i stay in my boring job, and i dont bother looking for work in the field i graduated in.

Depressing really when i see it typed out

Your post depressed me, PennyLane. Why would you settle for a d-head? From what you wrote, it seems very simple: you're lacking in self-esteem because you let yourself be treated this way. You attract men who don't respect the people around them and you attract them because you don't respect and love yourself. These cheaters see you as an easy target because they can probably sense you don't feel good about yourself. You get messed around by these guys and your self-esteem gets another knocking. Sounds to me like you're a fatalist and believe this is your diestiny. To be treated like a second class citizen is no one's destiny. It's up to break that cycle. Choose to be single instead of dating a d-head (because you feel you've no other option?? ). If you continuously allow yourself to be treated badly by people, you'll never have any self-respect. This situation is totally within your control. Don't stand for it. I can honestly say I've never been treated badly by a guy (lucky me I know) because I didn't stand for it and because I'm happy enough to be single 'till someone good enough for me came along. IN the time I was single, I learned to love myself and spend time on my own.

Why you would think you're any less of a person or any less worthy of respect and love than anyone else makes no sense at all (think about it) but you have to realise how nonsensical that is first. Why do you believe you're any less worthy? What makes you such an awful person?

(Mod: I know this is not a PI but I had to respond. This post depressed me. Delete if you like).

booboo88

For awhile I had a fear of being on my own, so much so that I put up with a guy who continuely lied to me, made up bull**** about how tough his life was, just so as when it came down to sex, it was all on his terms.
Sometimes I was just glad of the attention as majority of the time he stayed over he was on the laptop. I soon learnt, when its sad more than happy, its time to move on.
I do want to find someon, but only someone whos worth it, I have gotten rid of the creeps(the guys who text you when they want something something)

If a guy cant get to know me first, then see ya.
I think my lack of associating sex with somethin romantic goes back to when i was a kid though
my ex used always say I had 5 time more chances of ending up a prostite(lovely guy huh?)

g'em

I was going to go unregged for this but to hell with it. Whoever made the distinction between self-esteem and self-confidence really hit the nail on the head. No-one could accuse me of lacking in the latter, but the former, well in all honesty I struggle with it sometimes. I've been in the shítty relationships, I've had abusive partners, I've settled for less than I deserve. Now, invariably I wise up eventually, but it does take time, an awful lot of support from friends and essentially a mini rewiring of my thought process.

Ironically I equally know how frustrating it is to look at these scenarios from an outsider, when you want to shake friends silly for allowing themselves to put up with this kind of crap, but then I put myself back in their shoes and I understand it.

For me personally a lot of it (most of it?) came from my upbringing - I had a parent with an addiction, and right from when I was born I came in a far distant second to that need in their life. I was accused recently of always living in the past and not being able to get over these things, but the truth is that when you grow up with this environment it is the only normality that you know. Undoing it is akin to unlearning the alphabet. As I became an adult and started to embark on relationships I relatively quickly got into trouble - the only way I knew how to relate to someone was to always put their needs first, even if it was detrimental to my own. Instead of saying to myself "Is this meeting my needs?" my internal dialogue was always "Am I doing everything I can to make this person happy, if they're ok, I'm ok". When I say it out loud it sounds terribly martyrish, but I promise that's not how it feels when you're on the inside.

There's a little voice of logic and reason in the back of your mind screaming at you to realise that you're putting up with too much, it's the voice that battles against all that you've learnt growing up, and sometimes those battles can be epically confusing. Even though the adult in you knows that someone is trouble, the child in you finds comfort in something familiar. It's terribly difficult to break free from.

Looking back now I can see - almost with amusement - the terrible choices that I've made. I don't beat myself up over them though, that's an exercise in futility, but I do try and learn from them. If I knew ten years ago what I know now I wouldn't have walked away the one person I've ever met who really did value me for who I am and loved me without prejudice. But at the time the idea that I could be someone's no.1 was so alien to me that I ran from it

So yeah, there's a lot of reasons for having self-esteem issues, those are mine. I try hard not to let it define me but it can be a little hard at times. I'm working on it though

seenitall

I know what you speak of only too well, g'em. Messed-up childhood conditioning - it makes for one big, wild, life-long, rollercoaster ride!! WOOHOO!! :pac:

g'em

seenitall wrote: »

I know what you speak of only too well, g'em. Messed-up childhood conditioning - it makes for one big, wild, life-long, rollercoaster ride!! WOOHOO!! :pac:

Yup, it's awesome But as adults we have the ability to not let that conditioning overpower us, and we can reprogram it - it's tough going, but it's do-able.

I try very hard not to get very "woe is me" over it (which may or may not work all the time ) - for all the negatives it's also given me the drive and determination that I have now, and I choose to see the positives in how it shaped me. I have a great inbuilt coping mechanism - when times are tough, I make like Barney Stinson, stop being sad and be awesome instead. The year my parents' separated I got two scholarships, the year after I recovered from depression I got an MSc and dived my way around Central America. Thanks to a new-found focus following two shítty break-ups I got National Records and World Records in two different sports.

Shít things happen to good people all the time, and while I accept that I may have self-esteem blips from time to time, our lives are our own to make of them what we can These things are key for helping to rebuild self-esteem - going out and doing things for you and realising that you're worth spending time with

Pembily

g'em wrote: »

Shít things happen to good people all the time, and while I accept that I may have self-esteem blips from time to time, our lives are our own to make of them what we can These things are key for helping to rebuild self-esteem - going out and doing things for you and realising that you're worth spending time with

Amazing line - should be quoted lots!!!!!!!!!

seenitall

g'em wrote: »

The year my parents' separated I got two scholarships, the year after I recovered from depression I got an MSc and dived my way around Central America. Thanks to a new-found focus following two shítty break-ups I got National Records and World Records in two different sports.

Wow wow wow. Respec'.

gargleblaster

Thanks much for your post g'em.

I'd just like to say in relation to that, that it's somewhat offensive to hear comments like 'if you're dumb enough to fall for it you deserve it'.

Imagine what someone who grew up abused must feel like. Those people can be very intelligent and yet still have difficulty with certain issues stemming from their childhood. Yes, reason kicks in and enables us to deal with it, but the blanket condemnation of anyone who 'falls for' whatever is being discussed - be it pick up artist schtick, advertising bs, etc. - is really just showing a failure to understand how the human mind words or a lack of empathy for or understanding of other people.

Eve_Dublin

I reread the post I wrote earlier and I hope it didn't offend anyone. I didn't mean to come across as smug and to say, "Oh I've never been treated badly by a man because I'm a stronger person than you" and perhaps that's how it might have been picked up. Just to say to all the women who got into relationships and got treated badly, at least you had the guts to let your guard down. I don't think I ever really have hence the not getting messed around on a grand scale part. I have serious difficulties with that. Not sure if my own chidlhood had anything to do with it. Sporadic violence at home, mother passing away at a young age, brother with personality disorder and my other 3 siblings emigrating before I was 12 (before and just after my mam died) and being the one to look after my older brother because my dad and himself never spoke to each other (they've made up in the past 10 years though ). I just stick the guard up with anyone who comes along and I don't think I've ever really let it down. Anyway, at least you're braver than me to let yourself be vulnerable. I really admire that. I suppose it's striking the balance. Mad how much your upbringing has an affect on you for the rest of your life. I hope I can break this cycle with my own kids.

gargleblaster

Eve_Dublin just wanted to say that I was not directing that towards anyone at all, and when I've read things like that I don't take it personally. It does irk me though, but I know the feeling behind the sentiment so I'd never just come out and say "you don't know what you're talking about" because it's a fair enough thing to think, I've done it myself. And it's a fairly common sentiment because logically it does make perfect sense! With humans though, logic only goes so far.

I apologize for using strong language sometimes and I hope no one takes it personally. I don't mean to attack anyone that's for sure. I'm a blunt person and if I do come off like a hardass please do feel free to call me on it.

seenitall

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Mad how much your upbringing has an affect on you for the rest of your life. I hope I can break this cycle with my own kids.

Me too.

But don't be feeling guilty/inadequate about your own coping mechanisms; our subconscious is such an incredibly powerful force, so when it gets "wired" a bit wonkily from early on, it's a very difficult thing to change.

It sounds to me like you're on your way there, though.

LegacyUser

I've been a fairly long time reader of boards and this thread is the first that I felt strongly to respond to.

The amount of insight into this issue is impressive, especially from people like evedublin and g'em. It is refreshing that despite the stark topic in question people here seem to have a strong understanding of the reasons behind it.

I too felt like replying when reading pennylane's post. I'm about the same age as this poster and it did make for a depressing read. However, evedublins post really summed up my thoughts on this topic, and probably did so a lot better than I could

A person's upbringing most definitely plays a big role in how they view themselves and their worth. But, luckily we are adults now and can take charge of our own lives and how we choose to feel about ourselves. Easier said than done perhaps but do-able all the same I have no doubt.

Eve_Dublin

gargleblaster wrote: »

Eve_Dublin just wanted to say that I was not directing that towards anyone at all, and when I've read things like that I don't take it personally. It does irk me though, but I know the feeling behind the sentiment so I'd never just come out and say "you don't know what you're talking about" because it's a fair enough thing to think, I've done it myself. And it's a fairly common sentiment because logically it does make perfect sense! With humans though, logic only goes so far.

I apologize for using strong language sometimes and I hope no one takes it personally. I don't mean to attack anyone that's for sure. I'm a blunt person and if I do come off like a hardass please do feel free to call me on it.

No probs. Just making that clear. Nothing worse than smugness. I suppose you often take a person's relationship woes at face value but I suppose nobody knows what the other person has been through. It's important to remember and to take each case individually and not presume. Some of the stories posted in various threads of some posters up here have knocked me for six. I've literally sat there speechless reading them (although I couldn't sit here chatting to myself alone either in fairness ) . When you read them you get the bigger picture and think, "Ah THAT'S why that person is that way". People say you shouldn't use your past as an excuse for how you are but that's a load of beeswax. I've never gone to therapy in my life and I know there's been times I really should've. Most of us, particularly in Ireland where therapy still has stigma surrounding it, are dealing with crap from the past on our own and trying to find ways to have healthy, normal relationships. You're right about being a little more empathetic when hearing a person's back story or presuming they have no back story and that they're just walk overs. Not take something so complexed as a person's relationship patterns at face value. There's science to prove that our relationship patterns in our adult life have been embedded in our brains (literally) since childhood and how hard it is to take the road less travelled.

Eve_Dublin

seenitall wrote: »

Me too.

But don't be feeling guilty/inadequate about your own coping mechanisms; our subconscious is such an incredibly powerful force, so when it gets "wired" a bit wonkily from early on, it's a very difficult thing to change.

It sounds to me like you're on your way there, though.

Reading a book on the science behind it now (Social Intelligence by Daniel Goleman). It's mad. Self-awareness is the first step though. Getting to the route of the problem on your own and working on that. We'll get there in the end

Pembily

I'm relatively self confident (I believe in my ability to do what I do well) but looks wise more often than not I feel ugly, fat and no where near good enough, good enough for what I truly don't know! I was in one very destructive, emotionally abusive relationship but I've no 'reason', my parents are the perfect couple, I'd a reasonabley good childhood but I stayed in a horrendous relationship for 4 years knowing it was wrong but I stayed cause it was the best I could do blah, blah! My sister couldn't understand how an intelligent logical person could stay in such a relationship but you don't see it, from the inside it looks and feels good! I hope I'm never in that situation again but you learn from your mistakes!

We all strive for perfection but what is perfection????? We are our own biggest critics and we need to relax and not be so hard on ourselves!

neveah

Unfortunately I suffer with low self-esteem and low self confidence and I'm becoming more aware of it as I get older. I always find that I say negative things about myself when I am talking to other people. I do this without even thinking sometimes because I actually believe that what I'm saying is true, I am my own worst critic, I'm so hard on myself and I don't know why. When people disagree with something I've said about myself I don't believe them. I already have myself convinced that I don't look nice, that I'm fat, that that guy doesn't like me, that I'm not good at my job, I could go on.....It actually makes me sad to think I put myself down so much and I don't know how this became the norm for me.

My last relationship overall was not a good experience and I think Ickle Magoos earlier post hits the nail on the head when it comes to why girls stay in bad relationships, in my case my ex was a master manipulator and he would convince me he was right and I was wrong all the time, I never won an argument with him, he wore me down until he had me convinced that he knew best. For example he told me that my ex boyfriend before him (who I might add was a lovely guy) treated me way too well and I was spoiled and there's no way he'd be treating me like that! Can you imagine a boyfriend saying that to you, most people would run a mile but he had me convinced that I was spoiled and that I didn't deserve to be fussed over! On a few occasions he told me that if we ever broke up I'd never get anyone as good looking as him that I'd go back to ugly fellas like my other ex-boyfriend! The thing is the more somebody you 'love' tells you stuff like this the more you believe it. Thankfully I am no longer in that toxic relationship. It has taken me a long time to build up my self confidence again and I'm still not there fully but I'm trying my best and threads like this are so helpful. I love reading all the contributions, I can identify so much with some and I find strength and motivation from others

I want to finish on a positive note, my self esteem and confidence is getting better slowly but surely. I've learned so much from my past experiences. I now know exactly what I don't want and the type of behaviour I will no longer accept. For example a guy asked me out last week and I said yes and we arranged a day etc, a few hours before we were due to meet he texted me and cancelled giving some excuse about having to go out with guys from work and maybe we could re-arrange for the weekend......the old me would have said no bother, yeah sure let me know what day over the weekend. I would have been so grateful of the date and someone showing a smidgen of interest in me...but not the NEW me, the new me didn't even reply! If he'd rather go out with some work friends than go on a date with me then he's made his choice and I am second choice. I will no longer accept being second choice. I would rather be single forever than feeling like I am not someone's priority. I wasted so much of my energy running after my ex, there is no way I will start off a new relationship on that foot again. I have more self worth now and I know I deserve better. If I don't change then I know I will only be setting myself up for the same cycle of emotional abuse/low self esteem.

As the L'oreal tag line famously says 'because I'm worth it' , haha I've tried to adapt this as the tag line of my life now

gargleblaster

That's a very good point that ED made, that people always say that you shouldn't use your past as an excuse. If someone refuses to practice any self-awareness and makes no effort to change, and instead chooses to wallow in their misery and misfortune, then it's hard to have much sympathy at all, and much easier to perceive that they are indeed simply using their past as an excuse.

But to completely discount the way it can influence us from time to time seems ridiculous. Those things can and do affect nearly all us (maybe just all?) from time to time - moreso those who were constantly humiliated, abused, and ridiculed by their own parents. So it's definitely not as simple as just ignoring the circumstances that shaped your personality completely. If anything that attitude would be harmful to those making the effort to get over what happened, as they'd be more likely to beat themselves up for not just getting over it overnight, once they've realized what helped to create their issues.

LisaLee

I blame the media.

I suffer from low self esteem because my older brother had narcissistic personality disorder, and everything I did, he talked down until I was ashamed of it, everything I owned, he talked me out of wanting (or I just knew he was going to take it anyway, so just agreed with him and let him take it), everything I acheived he'd make me realise was nothing, nothing compared to what he and my younger also able-bodied brother could achieve. I was mildly disabled, nothing worth writing home about, but in my mind I was diseased, dirty, and totally unworthy. It's strange now to meet my older brother now he's outgrown this bullying attitude he had as a youngster. He's charming and friendly, as he always was, which was why myself and little bro got punished after a long night of being kicked about and our possessions stolen, because my brother could charm anyone into anything. I told my mother one day that she should have protected me from him, but instead she fed me to the lions, and she still says he's a lovely guy and never did a thing to us. My younger brother escaped his wrath by kicking the living sh*t out of me - he liked to watch this, and since I was such a weedy underweight weakling, it was easy for him. My younger brother now throws a fit any time I even speak - likes to contradict me and beat me down verbally even when he's wrong. I have no relationship with my brothers neither so I want one.

Now it's been good to vent about that.

But what really confuses me is why I was always bullied so badly for being ugly, in secondary school. I'm not ugly. I'm not gorgeous, but definitely better looking that a lot of the girls who were in the popular group. There was a girl in my school I was constantly mistaken for - we looked identical. I was bullied for being the ugliest girl in the school, and she wasn't bullied at all. I can't figure that out.

As an adult I never cared much for fashion, I dress how I want, I have my own style, and if people don't like it, then I don't want to know them. Growing up bullied at home and in school as I was has actually led me to be far more independent in who I am and who I want to be. I still cut myself the odd time, because I hate the dirty, diseased and unworthy child that I was, but that's when I'm really, really low.

Venting time done.

Emme

Deleted User wrote: »

I suffer from low self esteem because my older brother had narcissistic personality disorder, and everything I did, he talked down until I was ashamed of it, everything I owned, he talked me out of wanting (or I just knew he was going to take it anyway, so just agreed with him and let him take it), everything I acheived he'd make me realise was nothing, nothing compared to what he and my younger also able-bodied brother could achieve. I was mildly disabled, nothing worth writing home about, but in my mind I was diseased, dirty, and totally unworthy. It's strange now to meet my older brother now he's outgrown this bullying attitude he had as a youngster. He's charming and friendly, as he always was, which was why myself and little bro got punished after a long night of being kicked about and our possessions stolen, because my brother could charm anyone into anything. I told my mother one day that she should have protected me from him, but instead she fed me to the lions, and she still says he's a lovely guy and never did a thing to us. My younger brother escaped his wrath by kicking the living sh*t out of me - he liked to watch this, and since I was such a weedy underweight weakling, it was easy for him. My younger brother now throws a fit any time I even speak - likes to contradict me and beat me down verbally even when he's wrong. I have no relationship with my brothers neither so I want one.

Now it's been good to vent about that.

But what really confuses me is why I was always bullied so badly for being ugly, in secondary school. I'm not ugly. I'm not gorgeous, but definitely better looking that a lot of the girls who were in the popular group. There was a girl in my school I was constantly mistaken for - we looked identical. I was bullied for being the ugliest girl in the school, and she wasn't bullied at all. I can't figure that out.

As an adult I never cared much for fashion, I dress how I want, I have my own style, and if people don't like it, then I don't want to know them. Growing up bullied at home and in school as I was has actually led me to be far more independent in who I am and who I want to be. I still cut myself the odd time, because I hate the dirty, diseased and unworthy child that I was, but that's when I'm really, really low.

Venting time done.

:eek: Poor you! Have you had counselling? If not please consider it.

gargleblaster

Deleted User wrote: »

But what really confuses me is why I was always bullied so badly for being ugly, in secondary school. I'm not ugly. I'm not gorgeous, but definitely better looking that a lot of the girls who were in the popular group. There was a girl in my school I was constantly mistaken for - we looked identical. I was bullied for being the ugliest girl in the school, and she wasn't bullied at all. I can't figure that out.

Bullies (adults and children) can sense weakness, and pounce on it. I dealt with that same crap and there is no other explanation than that. Those who enjoy being assholes to increase their own sense of self-importance sensed your vulnerability, and capitalized on the foundation that your brothers laid. Just write it off as idiocy and put it out of your mind when it surfaces.

dan_d

I think it's partly the media and (for us slightly older folk!) partly our parents.

It's not really in the Irish psyche to go around telling ourselves and each other all day that we're great, and we did a really good job of something, and you know what? Well done us!

We're much better at sneering and laughing at each other (often under the name of "sarcastic humour") and putting each other down. All you've to do is listen to the radio to hear it. Or else you don't "put yourself forward too much" or praise yourself too much - that's good Catholic guilt right there!!

We are bombarded with images of perfection every day, from birth. Story tales, happily ever after, Prince charming, hollywood films, endless non-stop chick-lit books. 'Course one could always look at that from the point of view that the reason we never stop analysing and fantasising about this stuff is because it's actually not reality for anyone and on some level we all know that. Even though we're being told otherwise by these books/films/stories. If that makes sense.

Men seem to have this in-built sense of confidence. Don't ask me where they get it. Having said that, if you take a trip over to PI there are more, and more and more threads there started by young (18-30ish) men about how they are lonely, how they feel left out or different or stupid, how they can't get a girl when all their friends can, how they feel awkward all the time and don't know how to fit in, how they never feel good enough compared to their friends, or how they find it really hard to make friends. It's generally acknowledged that men find it a lot harder to "talk" about stuff, that they're less likely to ask for help if they're feeling down. Maybe it's only now that they're starting to talk about some of this stuff. There's no doubt thought, that there's far more pressure put on women by society than there is on men.

(On another note, I'm in an 8 year relationship, with a wonderful man and we are due to get married soon. The posts re:cheating earlier in the thread are just truly depressing and a bit upsetting really. The odd thing is that the my OH IS the person who tells me not to be so hard on myself all the time - the one who tells me to stop being so silly, don't I know I'm beautiful, the one who tells me I can do anything and have whatever I want just because I'm me. And I know many guys like him. I don't buy that every man out there cheats - if that was the case, none of us would ever be in a relationship for any length of time)

PennyLane88

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Your post depressed me, PennyLane. Why would you settle for a d-head? From what you wrote, it seems very simple: you're lacking in self-esteem because you let yourself be treated this way. You attract men who don't respect the people around them and you attract them because you don't respect and love yourself. These cheaters see you as an easy target because they can probably sense you don't feel good about yourself. You get messed around by these guys and your self-esteem gets another knocking. Sounds to me like you're a fatalist and believe this is your diestiny. To be treated like a second class citizen is no one's destiny. It's up to break that cycle. Choose to be single instead of dating a d-head (because you feel you've no other option?? ). If you continuously allow yourself to be treated badly by people, you'll never have any self-respect. This situation is totally within your control. Don't stand for it. I can honestly say I've never been treated badly by a guy (lucky me I know) because I didn't stand for it and because I'm happy enough to be single 'till someone good enough for me came along. IN the time I was single, I learned to love myself and spend time on my own.

Why you would think you're any less of a person or any less worthy of respect and love than anyone else makes no sense at all (think about it) but you have to realise how nonsensical that is first. Why do you believe you're any less worthy? What makes you such an awful person?

(Mod: I know this is not a PI but I had to respond. This post depressed me. Delete if you like).

Honestly i cant find any guys who have no 'baggage'. I would love to find someone decent, but i can be painfully shy when i fancy someone. I suffer from anxiety, which can make it hard for me. I'm thinking about internet dating, as i find socialising draining, and guys i talk to only want one thing.

Alot of guys cheat. As sweeping as it sounds, i have experienced this. Guys i thought wouldnt, have. Thats my experience.

And as stupid as this sounds, i would take my ex back in a heartbeat. Even though he dumped in such a horrible way, we had such a good time together when we were going out.

Emme

PennyLane88 wrote: »

Honestly i cant find any guys who have no 'baggage'. I would love to find someone decent, but i can be painfully shy when i fancy someone. I suffer from anxiety, which can make it hard for me. I'm thinking about internet dating, as i find socialising draining, and guys i talk to only want one thing.

Alot of guys cheat. As sweeping as it sounds, i have experienced this. Guys i thought wouldnt, have. Thats my experience.

And as stupid as this sounds, i would take my ex back in a heartbeat. Even though he dumped in such a horrible way, we had such a good time together when we were going out.

It's not a good idea to go back to somebody who treated you badly. I've had some serious issues with self-confidence and negativity and had to work on it. It isn't easy, but you eventually see the world as a better place and more importantly are less inclined to take crap.

It's a pity you find socialising draining, maybe you're socialising in the wrong places. Noisy bars aren't great.

Mc Kenzie

banshee_bones wrote: »

Don't you know? 69% of statistics are made up :pac:

I would be inclined to agree with the poster who said that the only way you learn is to make these mistakes yourself and if you dont learn the first time it will keep happening untill you do. The vicious circle.

Eventually the women in question (hopefully) will see a pattern and snap out of it, or at least someone close to them will and sit them down and tell them when they whine on about being in a shoddy relationship or accepting a never ending stream of crap, that theres a reason why it keeps happening, because they are seeking out the same type of person and repeat the pattern over and over again.

I also agree with the poster who said that alot of women stay in a rubbish relationship rather than be single and be "afflicted" by the "stigma" that is attached to it.

What is the stigma attatched to being single? i didnt even know there was one :rolleyes:

miec

Like what others have said I believe the whole low self esteem issue is a mixture of family, society, history and media.

Historically the only value a woman had was getting married, with the rise in equality that has changed somewhat but if you see women's magazines / media it is the same topic time and time again, how to bag a man, keep a man, win the man, have amazing orgasms with man, lose weight, who has gained weight/ lost weight, hair, make up, fashion, etc, etc. There is very little to expand a woman's mind or consciousness in mass media.

Then there is family and peers, what they say can have a massive impact.

Like others here I too struggle with self-esteem, I am almost a year out of an emotionally abusive relationship, I was with him for two years and I let him treat me like ****, as like previous partners because I had a huge amount of unresolved stuff from an abusive background, I had no self care for myself, it was always about being pleasing for the other person. I must say the comment about master manipulator's letting just enough gorgeousness through summed up my experience. Since then I am working on my low self esteem, taking time out to actual heal and grieve and one book that I found very useful was 'Women who love too much' by Robin Norwood. I realise that until I like me and value myself as I am, I cannot let genuine love in and I feel this goes for everyone.

premierlass

banshee_bones wrote:

Eventually the women in question (hopefully) will see a pattern and snap out of it, or at least someone close to them will and sit them down and tell them when they whine on about being in a shoddy relationship or accepting a never ending stream of crap, that theres a reason why it keeps happening, because they are seeking out the same type of person and repeat the pattern over and over again.

This is a good point, and true for most people, but many people have had no examples of a healthy relationship in their formative years, or there is something else which prevents them from learning from experience. I think in these cases a balance needs to be struck between gaining relationship experience, which is important, and avoiding experiences which will damage self-esteem. This is particularly relevant in people with a history of abuse of various types, because not dealing with the issues will ensure that the cycle continues.

Dating begins very early nowadays, and so does sexual activity. Sex is expected to happen relatively early into the dating process. This is a radical departure from the dating process of say a hundred years ago. While it certainly occured, it was not expected to happen in the context of dating, which as a result was a lot more casual. Now people can be thrust into very intense emotional experiences too soon or before they are emotionally capable of dealing with them. This affects men as well, but women tend to take their self-image from relationships and their ability to gain/maintain them a lot more than men do.

It often astonishes me how often people jump from relationship to relationship and don't get to experience single life at all. In my opinion, it's something you absolutely need to do in order to get to know yourself, and feel comfortable enough alone that you don't get desperate and make wrong choices. Of course there are exceptions, but few people are so mature and so together that they can jump into a relationship and stay there for the next fifty years.

PennyLane, here's advice that is often given to people with severe self-esteem issues that lead to bad relationships. First of all, stop dating for a while. Meet people outside of a dating context, such as music, sports, debating, drama, Irish or foreign language conversation, academic courses. If you can, get counselling. If you can't, start googling until you find information that helps you. Believe me, it works. It's a cliche, but it's true: if you don't love yourself, who else will?

lolly28

I feel that society and celebs and tv really don't help. As much as you can say well you should be able to ignore that, it is coming more and more into society and outrun people down. Weight and size is a huge issue. Although statistics show that Ireland are coming more obese I really feel that young girls are getting thinner and thinner. Only recently did penneys release their clothes in a size 6! Never had this before!

Men swell put women down and make then feel low.

Dudess

It's women's magazines and ads for women's products, and the fashion world that push the size 6 ideal. Most men like boobs or arse or both.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Really good thread.

By the way before I launch into my opinion, I'm a 28 year old guy in case people are wondering.

For me, self-confidence came with age. I used to have very low self-confidence at one stage. For guys there can be a bit of pressure socially to be successful with women, more of a "score with lots of birds" thing than maybe the pressure to be in a relationship that some women can be subjected to.

I became more confident by just throwing myself into situations, a sort of sink or swim situation really.

I reckon I have matured dramatically in relationships at this stage, just came with age I think. I have always told my girlfriend that if there is something bothering her about our relationship to just come out and say it, no point in leaving emotions well up, that just leads to disaster.

I do find that women can lack self-confidence. My girlfriend graduated recently and was looking for jobs (thankfully she got one ). Despite the fact that she has a very impressive CV for a new graduate she wasn't entirely confident about her abilities.

I believe that the two biggest drivers of lowering women's self-esteem are the media and other women.

Women are bombarded by the media a lot more than men, walk into a newsagents and see the rack after rack of women's magazines. It's so crazy sometimes that it can be hard for a guy to find even one magazines that might appeal to them in some shops. The media really do the whole "in order to be happy", "in order to be loved" this is what you need or this is how you should look.

Other women too can be terribly cutting to their fellow women. It's pretty rare I hear a comment made by one guy about another that raises my eyebrows. Very rare too that I hear a guy giving another a back-handed compliment. Let's be brutally honest, that happens an awful lot more with women.

LittleBook

Dudess wrote: »

It's women's magazines and ads for women's products, and the fashion world that push the size 6 ideal. Most men like boobs or arse or both.

I was talking to my old Mam the other night ... she said she believes that in her day, women's magazines reflected their readers whereas these days the readers are supposed to reflect their magazines.

I thought she made a good point.

Malari

Dudess wrote: »

It's women's magazines and ads for women's products, and the fashion world that push the size 6 ideal. Most men like boobs or arse or both.

And then there's the whole tension of being pulled between these two supposedly ideal shapes. It actually always irks me when people use the "but men like..." line. As if when you aim to look any other way you are effectively denying yourself a potential relationship. :rolleyes: I know this isn't what you are saying, Dudess, but to me it's like secretly believing single people cannot be happy.

southsiderosie

miec wrote: »

Like what others have said I believe the whole low self esteem issue is a mixture of family, society, history and media.
Historically the only value a woman had was getting married, with the rise in equality that has changed somewhat but if you see women's magazines / media it is the same topic time and time again, how to bag a man, keep a man, win the man, have amazing orgasms with man, lose weight, who has gained weight/ lost weight, hair, make up, fashion, etc, etc. There is very little to expand a woman's mind or consciousness in mass media.

Honesty, I think that 95% of "women's" media is crap. Most of my magazine reading is news/society/culture, not women's/fashion magazines because most of them are filled with conflicting 'advice' and ridiculous articles. Photography is a hobby of mine, and I used to like getting magazines like Vogue more for the pictures than anything else, but I've basically stopped because the content was crap and even high-end fashion magazines have become way too celebrity-focused.

Look at it this way: most media outlets today make their money off of advertising, not reader subscriptions. So ultimately, whose interests do you think they are going to cater to? At the end of the day, these magazines exist to get you to buy stuff, not to make you feel better about yourself. The internet is a good alternative option...as are more general interest magazines.

I think another difference is that a lot of women don't have outside hobbies the way men do - they aren't involved in organized sports, they don't fix cars or bicycles, etc. So if you look at men's magazines, a lot of them are activity-oriented, whereas women's magazines are self-oriented. Men's magazines have traditionally focused on getting them to buy new trainers or a different kind of motor oil. Women's magazines try to get you to buy a new you. Yes, this is changing somewhat, as advertisers realize that generating more male insecurity can be profitable as well, but in general, this has been the case.

One of the best things my parents ever did for me was to get me involved in organized sports early. Team sports can be incredibly confidence-building, they emphasize fitness over perfection, and the goal is self-improvement to benefit the team rather than to 'catch a man' or fulfill some impossible media ideal. And later in life, they offer an activity outlet where you have the chance to meet new people with similar interests. Beyond sport, there is stuff that is 'consciousness-expanding' for women, but there is little to be found in mass-media.

LeeHoffmann

Historically the only value a woman had was getting married, with the rise in equality that has changed somewhat but if you see women's magazines / media it is the same topic time and time again, how to bag a man, keep a man, win the man, have amazing orgasms with man, lose weight, who has gained weight/ lost weight, hair, make up, fashion, etc, etc. There is very little to expand a woman's mind or consciousness in mass media.

hilarious but absolutely true! When I was 18, I had a friend whose Mam was always warning her that if she didn't find a boyfriend soon she'd be 'left on the shelf'. No lie. I heard her say these words a few times. Luckily my friend just laughed at her. This was only 9 years ago though

um7y1h83ge06nx

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think another difference is that a lot of women don't have outside hobbies the way men do - they aren't involved in organized sports, they don't fix cars or bicycles, etc. So if you look at men's magazines, a lot of them are activity-oriented, whereas women's magazines are self-oriented. Men's magazines have traditionally focused on getting them to buy new trainers or a different kind of motor oil. Women's magazines try to get you to buy a new you. Yes, this is changing somewhat, as advertisers realize that generating more male insecurity can be profitable as well, but in general, this has been the case.

One of the best things my parents ever did for me was to get me involved in organized sports early. Team sports can be incredibly confidence-building, they emphasize fitness over perfection, and the goal is self-improvement to benefit the team rather than to 'catch a man' or fulfill some impossible media ideal. And later in life, they offer an activity outlet where you have the chance to meet new people with similar interests. Beyond sport, there is stuff that is 'consciousness-expanding' for women, but there is little to be found in mass-media.

So true, you really hit the nail on the head. I used buy the likes of FHM and now sometimes buy Men's Health or Esquire. Having a girlfriend I sometimes flick through her mags too. Comparing the two, you're definitely right in what you say. I find that the women's magazines are pretty condescending to their readership in comparison to men's mags.

One thing that I cannot understand at all is the whole "girl power", women being empowered thing of Sex And The City. The few episodes I have seen, the characters are a bunch of needy whingers, certainly not confident empowered women in my opinion. And SATC has had a huge impact on popular culture and has probably influenced an awful lot of young women to one extent or another.

miec

So true, you really hit the nail on the head. I used buy the likes of FHM and now sometimes buy Men's Health or Esquire. Having a girlfriend I sometimes flick through her mags too. Comparing the two, you're definitely right in what you say. I find that the women's magazines are pretty condescending to their readership in comparison to men's mags.

+ 1. Maybe more group sports/ activities for girls will help.

One thing that I cannot understand at all is the whole "girl power", women being empowered thing of Sex And The City. The few episodes I have seen, the characters are a bunch of needy whingers, certainly not confident empowered women in my opinion. And SATC has had a huge impact on popular culture and has probably influenced an awful lot of young women to one extent or another.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have only watched a few episodes of SATC but what a sad, pathetic intepretation of women. They were a tv/film version of the glossy woman's magazine and millions upon millions of women swallow that ****. They are not empowered or comfortable in their own skin, they are neurotic, fashion and body obsessed. Also the term 'girl power' is the antithesis of woman being self actualised, it doesn't even use the word woman, just girls. That says it all for me.