is it legal to change a load "not reload".

juice1304

As the title says would it be legal to take say a 2 3/4 28g shotgun shell, open the crimp take the shot and only the shot out leaving the wad powder etc.. and change say a 7 1/2 shot to lets say a number 4 buchshot. ie take the lead from the 7 1/2 shot and trough it into a no.4 buck mold, put it back in the shell and then recrimp it.

New section 10A in Principal Act.


40.— The following section is inserted after section 10 of the Principal Act:


“Reloading of ammunition.


10A.— (1) A person (except a registered firearms dealer or the holder of a licence under this section) who reloads ammunition is guilty of an offence.


(2) An application for a licence under this section shall be in the prescribed form, be accompanied by the prescribed fee (if any) and be made to the superintendent of the Garda Síochána of the district in which the applicant resides.


(3) A superintendent shall not grant a licence under this section unless satisfied that the following conditions are complied with:


(a) the applicant holds a firearm certificate;


(b) the reloading of ammunition will not, in the particular circumstances, endanger public safety or security or the peace;


(c) the person has a special need which, in the opinion of the superintendent, is sufficient to justify granting the licence;


(d) the applicant is competent to reload ammunition;


(e) the premises where the reloading is to take place are sufficiently safe and secure for that purpose.


(4) The superintendent may at any time—


(a) attach to the licence such further conditions as he or she considers necessary for the purpose of preventing danger to members of the public or the peace or for ensuring that ammunition is reloaded only to satisfy the special need of the applicant, and


(b) for that purpose vary any of those conditions.


(5) The licence—


(a) shall be in the prescribed form,


(b) shall be granted for a specified period not exceeding 3 years, and


(c) may be revoked by the superintendent if he or she is no longer satisfied that any condition mentioned in subsection (3) of this section is being or will be complied with.


(6) A person who, without reasonable excuse, does not comply with a condition mentioned in subsection (3) or (4) of this section is guilty of an offence and liable—


(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or both, or


(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.


(7) The Minister may by order specify the maximum quantity and type of component parts of ammunition that may be purchased, sold, stored or used to reload ammunition by an individual who holds a licence under this section or a registered firearms dealer.


(8) In this section “reloading ammunition” means making ammunition from spent ammunition, and cognate expressions shall be construed accordingly.”.

As you would not be roloading as in no new primers/powers just modifying the shot, would it be ok or a big nono?

Sparks

That section (10A) was in the 2006 Criminal Justice Act juice, but it was never commenced (ie. it never put into the Firearms Act itself) and it was repealed by the 2009 Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act.

In other words, it was never law in this country.

As to the original question, I'm not sure. Ezri knows more about this area than I do, so I'll defer to him.

juice1304

Thank you sparks:). good to know.

Cass

Absolutely NOT.

The very minute you open a round, be that uncrimping a cartridge or pulling the head of a rifle round, then you are no longer in possession of a round (which you are covered to own with your firearms license), but are in possession of COMPONANT PARTS OF AMMUNITION. Most noticeably propellant/powder.

To have these componant parts without lawful authority, which is a license to reload from the DOJ, is an offense. As the DOJ are not granting these licenses you cannot do it.

Thats the legal bit. Now the safety bit. To change the load of a round without knowing what you are doing, how much the firearm can handle (pressure wise) or mixing different powders is dangerous unless you know what you are doing. Any mistake can cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm and should not be attempted.

On a personal note unless you are reloading from the start i cannot see the reason for "altering" a round especially a cartridge. The variety of different loads is huge and there is surely something there that will suffice that is factory made.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

Absolutely NOT.

The very minute you open a round, be that uncrimping a cartridge or pulling the head of a rifle round, then you are no longer in possession of a round (which you are covered to own with your firearms license), but are in possession of COMPONANT PARTS OF AMMUNITION. Most noticeably propellant/powder.

To have these componant parts without lawful authority, which is a license to reload from the DOJ, is an offense. As the DOJ are not granting these licenses you cannot do it.

Thats the legal bit. Now the safety bit. To change the load of a round without knowing what you are doing, how much the firearm can handle (pressure wise) or mixing different powders is dangerous unless you know what you are doing. Any mistake can cause a catastrophic failure of the firearm and should not be attempted.

On a personal note unless you are reloading from the start i cannot see the reason for "altering" a round especially a cartridge. The variety of different loads is huge and there is surely something there that will suffice that is factory made.

Sorry Ez,but I beg to differ on a point of historical" law" on this one..:eek:

There is precedent that allows for modifying not reloading your ammo.There were two cases in Sligo /Donegal ,or the NW part of the land in the mid /early 1990s where the Gardai did try and pull that stunt on two stalkers claiming it was reloading..BOTH cases were thrown out of court as the judges common sense stated that it was a modification to the bullet and powder charge.NOT making up a round from fresh components.As well as that one judge stated that it beehooved a stalker to get the best performance from his firearm if he was engaged in shooting deer for simple humane grounds to prevent suffering and if the stalker felt the round was insufficent he was the best to judge this...Or words to that effect

Im trying to find theses cases as I remember they were in the national press and either ISD or the defunct shooting news...
Somone else apart from me must remember these???

Now before this decends into a big legal discussion about DC not being a court of record and definitions of reloading,and who has been doing this the longest,gets personal ,or whatever as these discussions on here invaribly do,when two people disagree.:)

I am simply pointing out that it has been coverd here in Irish law courts before,and like the bullet collecting saga,has been thrown out.
However it is up to each person to weigh up their own risks and willingness to explain this legalese in a district court.If you do and get caught for some reason you will have to fight it as a new case.Saying it was done in a DC before wont hold much water..
So YES your advice is very sound to prevent hassle,but its not totally unfammilar water here either with the judicary.Still ultra caution is needed in it.There are still plenty of reefs.

As for the rest of it,very true.Buy what you need in a shotgun shell load.:)

juice1304

thanks you all for the advice lads, it's more that i cast 00 buck pellets for my slingshots and i have a load of birdshot sitting there but no money for ammo for a while, so i thought it might be an idea for going after charlie. i shall look into it more.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is precedent that allows for ..........................

............Saying it was done in a DC before wont hold much water..

Any water. DCs DO NOT set precedent. Saying you do not want to get into a long lgeal debate does not negate this fact. Quite frankly i haven't the energy to get into one.

So YES your advice is very sound to prevent hassle, .................Still ultra caution is needed in it.There are still plenty of reefs.

Thats about the safest advice. Getting away with rather than it being 100% legal is a fairly distinctive difference. There is nothing to say the next judge would be so forgiving. If a judge were to follow the letter of the law, and the person modifying the ammo was caught, mid modifying, and was prosecuted for having the componants rather than the ammo he could face the full rigour of the law or it could be thrown out.

Anyone fancy spending the money to find out?

Grizzly 45

Thats about the safest advice. Getting away with rather than it being 100% legal is a fairly distinctive difference. There is nothing to say the next judge would be so forgiving. If a judge were to follow the letter of the law, and the person modifying the ammo was caught, mid modifying, and was prosecuted for having the componants rather than the ammo he could face the full rigour of the law or it could be thrown out.

That would be a pretty extreme situation mind what you describe there!!
:eek:.Unless you were sitting in a public place giving a demo of how to reload shells,or they were just raiding you with a search warrent stating specifically stating the search reasons and what is searched for.. and caught you red handed just reseating a bullet or pulling one.

Nor is having the equipment illegal to relaod,because now there is the question brought up by this whole thread...Could you be charged now for having the equipment does that PROVE INTENT to commit a crime of "reloading ammo"????:eek:

Same as a known druggie goes to a head shop,buys books on "how to grow your own pot",the lights,the growth material,the fertiliser, etc, etc..Has anyone been ever charged with INTENT to grow and supply a class A drug by just having the equipment?

It's abit improable,not impossible

Anyone fancy spending the money to find out?

Last point being unfortunatly
INMHO the shape of things to come:(..As from personal experiance and what it seems alot of others on various aspects of the entire firearms laws.It looks like every new paragraph,will have to be contested in a court as the PTB seemingly want to play it this way..Worse is,they can take it into court and withdraw drop the charges,and walk away from it,while you have had to pay for legal counsel etc,and the large sack of manure,is still not dissected and aired in public of the Garda bully boy tactics!So you are no better off nor is the GP,both have lost money in taxes to pay for this nonsense or trial,if it ever gets that far..

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That would be a pretty extreme situation mind what you describe there!!
:eek:.Unless you were sitting in a public place giving a demo of how to reload shells,or they were just raiding you with a search warrent stating specifically stating the search reasons and what is searched for.. and caught you red handed just reseating a bullet or pulling one.

It is an extreme situation, no arguments there. However should you be "modifying the ammo, and leave powder, etc lying around and get raided you would have alot of explaining to do.

I could go on citing scenarios, but for everyone's sake i won't. Point is why take the chance on getting caught doing anything.

Nor is having the equipment illegal to reload, because now there is the question brought up by this whole thread...Could you be charged now for having the equipment does that PROVE INTENT to commit a crime of "reloading ammo"????:eek:

Same as a known druggie goes to a head shop,buys books on "how to grow your own pot",the lights,the growth material,the fertiliser, etc, etc..Has anyone been ever charged with INTENT to grow and supply a class A drug by just having the equipment?

The PTB cannot legislate for what might happen. There is a difference between intending, and being prepared (for want of a better phrase). You can have the tools, books, etc that are associated with reloading, but there is a difference between having the tools and knocking out a few hundred rounds a week. I know what you're saying, but for the moment its legal to have the tools so i'm not going to rock the boat by discussing why they should or shouldn't be allowed.

Obviously if you are ordering all this stuff via the post you run the risk of getting a visit. Its common sense on the PTB's behalf. As per your example if i saw a lad in a head shop buying all the gear i would think he is growing his own. Doesn't make it so. Same with the tools for reloading. Difference being if you get raided for a firearms/explosives related matter you will forever have a "mark" on you by the PTB.

It's abit improable, not impossible

Still don't fancy the odds.

For the record i personally would advise against it. Unless you have the money, time and effort to face a possible court case caution is the better option. Give it time. If the pilot scheme works out we may all benefit from it. However if too many try and bend/stretch the law and it's meaning due to lack of patience, etc it could backfire on us and we risk loosing everything.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

.

I could go on citing scenarios, but for everyone's sake i won't. Point is why take the chance on getting caught doing anything.

Ah..Here is the billion euro question..Why do people do what they doin this life??

The PTB cannot legislate for what might happen. There is a difference between intending, and being prepared (for want of a better phrase). You can have the tools, books, etc that are associated with reloading, but there is a difference between having the tools and knocking out a few hundred rounds a week. I know what you're saying, but for the moment its legal to have the tools so i'm not going to rock the boat by discussing why they should or shouldn't be allowed.

Well, if you are knocking out a 100 plus rounds you are reloading,no questions about that one..:D
I agree they shouldnt be legislating for what "might" happen..But in reality hasnt the majority of the firearms laws here and been for "what MIGHT happen".IE we MIGHT use powder to make explosive devices,the IRA MIGHT have armed themselves in1972 off the civillian pouplation for war in NI.We MIGHT have had a US style gunculture if handguns had continued unabated here.:rolleyes: Lots of Mights there..Very little factual info to justify the legislation...So dont be surprised if some hotshot decides now that reloading equipment MIGHT mean that you are planning to reload illegally:rolleyes:

Obviously if you are ordering all this stuff via the post you run the risk of getting a visit. Its common sense on the PTB's behalf. As per your example if i saw a lad in a head shop buying all the gear i would think he is growing his own. Doesn't make it so. Same with the tools for reloading. Difference being if you get raided for a firearms/explosives related matter you will forever have a "mark" on you by the PTB.

Exactly..as you will as a dealer or user.."known to AGS" is the polite term.:)But it is preventative rather than reactive,which any law student will tell you is not good law or good for the common good either.


Still don't fancy the odds.

For the record i personally would advise against it. Unless you have the money, time and effort to face a possible court case caution is the better option.

Give it time. If the pilot scheme works out we may all benefit from it. However if too many try and bend/stretch the law and it's meaning due to lack of patience, etc it could backfire on us and we risk loosing everything.

I really hope so Ezi,but I dont trust these people to play straight with us..
They havent up to now..Why should they start now???It wont be politicans,it will be the "permanent govt" types,who shaft us without any lube .I just hope that we are not pinning too much on this event,and that the PTB will make it so impossible with H&S rules and storage conditions,that you would have to build a "Midlands missile bunker":) out the back garden if you want to reload ten deer hunting shells per season.

semi-auto

So will be be allowed to reload soon ?

bunny shooter

semi-auto wrote: »

So will be be allowed to reload soon ?

We should have a better idea in a few months new legislation due soon

Half-cocked

If I cut open a shotgun cartridge to show someone whats inside, I am breaking the law, correct?:eek: I often get asked what size the pellets are, how many there are, whats wadding etc etc. Easiest way is to slice the top off and empty the contents into my hand. But that would make me in possession of components without a license to reload????

Cass

Technically - Yes.