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Flamenco Guitar Theory
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09-06-2011 6:34pm#1
Comments
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funky penguin wrote: »I'm a leeeetle confused.
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I have a feeling I might be making this more confusing........ :P
No your grand, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Well, simple answer for this is that the book told me soWhy do you need to go to the Phrygian mode if you want to harmonise in Em?
In the following example tracks, the first ideas we use come from the Phrygian Mode. This set of notes is used in many flamenco forms. If our chord progression is in Em, we can start the scale from the 5th note (B) to use a Phrygian sound. For example, B phrygian contains the notes B-C-D-E-F#-G-A. This scale creates melodies that give our playing a flamenco or Spanish sound when played with the backing track.funky penguin wrote:Also, in Em, the D is sharp if we discuss harmony (so you kinda make a Phrygian dominant scale, with a sharp 3rd).
So would we expect a D# chord in the progression then? (apologies if I don't make sense, but my theory knowledge is a bit scattered
) The way I understand it is we need a Dmajor chord for the progression to sound 'right' (see below), but a D# is used in the Bm chord to make it a B7 (the book just says this is a variation that is used to get a Spanish).
Ah, this is my fault, I should have put up the progression in full, its:If the cadence ends in Bm, then it sounds like your 'key' is B Phrygian, which would explain the lack of Dsharp. The signature for B Phrygian is Gmajor (Em).
Em-D-C-B7-
Em-D-C-B7-
Am-Em-B7-
Em-Am-Em-C-B7-Em
which definitely looks like the key of Em, which is why I was confused about using a B scale in an Em key. The progression works too, if you trying playing it it sounds good.
I had a look at the related wiki article but while I can understand the words I can't make sense of it, it might make more sense to you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence#Analysis
I thought I had a understanding of how modes work so this is bugging me a bit, I'm probably just missing something simple.
I think I might have confused you more though 0 -
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funky penguin wrote: »No don't worry, modes are tricky enough.
What you have there is harmonisation in Em, with a flat 7 (technically not Em, but it's still the tonic....it's kind of Aeolian).
BUT
Then you have B7, which is B, Dsharp, Fsharp, A
Soooooooooo, it's basically cycling through Em and B Phrygian, modulating a wee bit.
Modes are in no way simple. The greek names are taken from (surprise surprise) Ancient Greece, but their tunings would have been completely different. The tunings we use are from Medieval gregorian chant, which was monophonic and had nothing to do with harmony really, melody was paramount.
Without going into too much detail, the concept of a mode is quite different to major and minor tonality, mainly because there are no set guidelines to writing them.
Kind of summed up a little here (from the wiki):
Basically, try not to catagorise them too much. The basis for our music theory comes from western tonality, and trying to fit modes into that can be tricky since they were never used until Debussy in the late 1800's.
Cheers I think I understand it enough now, it would never have occurred to me to think of it as moving between the two, Em and B phyrg.
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No Problem.
I also can't stress enough that this is my opinion on it! Modes are tricky in that several interpretations of the theory will work!
Keep thinking about it as you play. Experiment with what sounds good etc, and eventually you will see why/how they work according to YOU!
If that makes sense :P
Best of luck! 0 -
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funky penguin wrote: »I'm a leeeetle confused.
Why do you need to go to the Phrygian mode if you want to harmonise in Em?
Also, in Em, the D is sharp if we discuss harmony (so you kinda make a Phrygian dominant scale, with a sharp 3rd).
In E minor D's are natural.
Using a a standard eminor scale with a d# is simply a minor harmonic scale (e,f#,g,a,b,c,d#,e)If the cadence ends in Bm, then it sounds like your 'key' is B Phrygian, which would explain the lack of Dsharp. The signature for B Phrygian is Gmajor (Em).
I have a feeling I might be making this more confusing........ :P
I think you are. I don't understand what you mean at all.riffmongous wrote: »
So would we expect a D# chord in the progression then? (apologies if I don't make sense, but my theory knowledge is a bit scattered)
No a d# chord in this kind of progression in eminor would be weirdThe way I understand it is we need a Dmajor chord for the progression to sound 'right' (see below), but a D# is used in the Bm chord to make it a B7 (the book just says this is a variation that is used to get a Spanish).
Yes well this isn't exactly right; you can use the d# over the bminor to get a dissoant sound but it doesn't make the bmin just a b dominant 7 (b7) as the d natural from the b minor is still there so you have bminor add sharp 5th. (b, d, f# b, d#) but i think the book is just replacing the bm with a b7 which is a very poor way of explaining the dominant 7thwhich definitely looks like the key of Em, which is why I was confused about using a B scale in an Em key. The progression works too, if you trying playing
It's eminor harmonic scale but starts on a b which doesn't give you a 'b' scale but rather and more importantly the 5th mode of e minor harmonic scale or the mode of b phygrian - so a mode rather than a scale.funky penguin wrote: »
Then you have B7, which is B, Dsharp, Fsharp, A
Soooooooooo, it's basically cycling through Em and B Phrygian, modulating a wee bit.
It's not modulating at all. To modulate the key signature would have to change. It's simply adding a d# for one bar or part thereof. The dominant 7th is so common in minor keys that it's almost native.0 -
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funky penguin wrote: »I'm sorry, but they aren't. When deciding a key, you use the harmonic scale. If you have a piece of music in E minor without a Dsharp, it's not E Minor.
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stevejazzx wrote: »That makes absolutely no musical sense whatsoever.
When deciding a key you use the harmonic minor? What?
What on earth are talking about? Of course it is there are limitless piecies of music I can write in eminor wihtout d#s. May I ask where you are getting your information from as it is totally incorrect?
In eminor d's are natural - that is a fact.
E minor
E, F♯, G, A, B, C, D, E
Otherwsie I think every music school in the world will have to change it's curriculum.
No I'm afraid you are totally wrong. To modulate means to change key rather than a chord within a key.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music)
I have no idea why you decided to argue both these points - I have taught music for over 10 years.
I argued the points because you brought them up in your first post in the thread.
Look, I don't know where your anger is coming from but you're being quite rude.
I also think that wires are being crossed.
I'm sure you realise that music theory can be surprisingly subjective.
In my opinion, brief modulations occur in music. Of course, these can be spelled in a different musical manner.
I'm also of the opinion that if the harmony of 'E Minor' contains D naturals, then we're not in E minor at that moment. E minor needs D sharp, it's leading note to be considered classically E Minor, after all what reveals a key more that a V7-I?
The notes you listed above would be E Aeolian to me, especially if D sharp was never used.
Oh course, it's only my opinion. What do you teach by the way?0 -
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funky penguin wrote: »I argued the points because you brought them up in your first post in the thread.
Look, I don't know where your anger is coming from but you're being quite rude.
There is no anger;I didn't bring it up there were already six post discussing it inaccurately I just made an observation.I also think that wires are being crossed.
I'm sure you realise that music theory can be surprisingly subjective.
In my opinion, brief modulations occur in music. Of course, these can be spelled in a different musical manner.
I'm also of the opinion that if the harmony of 'E Minor' contains D naturals, then we're not in E minor at that moment. E minor needs D sharp, it's leading note to be considered classically E Minor, after all what reveals a key more that a V7-I?
The notes you listed above would be E Aeolian to me, especially if D sharp was never used.
Oh course, it's only my opinion. What do you teach by the way?
FP, I'm sorry but in this thread you have confused the theory quite a lot.
Classically the minor harmonic is exactly that - an Eminor scale with a sharp 7 (d#). If I compose a piece with chords emin, dmaj, gmaj, f#m7 b5 and em and use regular eminor scale without any d#s that piece is in eminor not eminor aeolian. That's just the first mode of it.
In classical theory the key signature with a single f# is eminor or gmaj.
D#'s are not required - this is fact across all era of music. We do not need the dominant 7ths to make it to be properly in eminor. This a fallacy. If I appear rude my sincere apologies but I feel you should not be offering advice on this forum without first understanding yourself. Both your notions on key theory are 100% incorrect yet you have decided to repeat them. Oddly you claimed that eminor with b7 was modulating yet at same time say d#s appear in the 'real' eminor key? I'm sorry to say but that is simply very confused.
I teach classical guitar including music theory.0 -
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ok, this might take me a while!
here's my (long) take on it from the start:
riffmongous:
to me, if you use the notes of the e minor scale, chances are you are in e minor. if you want to harmonise in a mode and use it properly, you need to work it out very carefully that you don't accidentally tonicise (make sound like home) the related key. say in this example you've written out your chords of the B phrygian, grand. but now look at your progression. this could be looked at as iv-III-II-i in B phrygian, but the problem is that it sounds a hell of a lot like i-VII-VI-V(7) in e minor. this isn't in B phrygian. it's in e minor because you use the e minor scale and more importantly e minor SOUNDS like home. i don't think that if you play those chords anyone will try to argue that the B actually sounds more resolved than e?
what your looking at here, and you need to watch for it and avoid it like the plague, in my opinion, is Chord Scale Theory or CST. in CST, they teach the major and minor scale in relation to modes, they might say play C ionian, then D dorian, then G mixolydian. this gives the guitarist an impression that this is somehow a modal progression, it's not. it's I-ii-V in C major. it helps guitarists visualise the notes of the scale, but it does not mean they are playing modally. this is in E minor.
if you do, for any reason, want to write modally, you need to choose your chords very carefully and make sure that they resolve (sound at home) with B minor. this will usually mean that you will only use maybe a two chord vamp, because any more will give the ear a very strong tendency to hear the related major or minor as home. so simply, it's in E minor, and be very very wary of CST without understanding it.
@funky penguin:
tbh i don't hear phrygian inn that, although it depends very much where you resolve your melody to etc, but to make that sound like phrygian, you'd need to have an understanding of modes greater than that of the TS (no offense meant riffmongus)
@riffmongus:
in this progression we have a major chord on the lowered 7th. do you know about the melodic minor scale? basically, in the melodic minor, when your going up to the tonic, you'll use #6-#7-8, and when your going down, you'll use 8-b7-b6. if you look at this progression (in e) you'll see the bass moving down from the tonic, hence 8-b7-b6-5. by the way, the melodic minor works like that in all voices, not just the melody.
@funky penguin
i don't really see a modulation here. i think the simplest explanation here would be what i said above with the lowered melodic minor being the basis, and then moving back to the dominant 7th
@stevejazzx
i agree with the not modulating, but have to clear two things up here for the TS. a D# chord in this progression would be weird (wouldn't be the progression if it did have that), but the D#dim is in the key of E minor, so the TS might very well see it in a different piece in e minor.
also, it depends what type of E minor your talking about. there is no D# in the key signature of E minor (although harmonic minors used to have them in their own key signatures before hee key signatures were standardised). when i'm talking to someone who doesn't know theory and they say e minor, i'll presume E natural minor because chances are the usual seventh in a minor key in the music they play and listen to will be lowered. when i'm talking to someone who does know music theory, if they say E minor (as in the case) i'll presume it with a raised 7th unless it appears like this in downward motion from the tonic.
@funky penguin, i know you say it wouldn't be e minor, i'd say it could be e natural minor, but that's just me, i don't usually use mode names and wouldn't really call e natural minor aeolian, as i think there is too much music in our ears in the last half a millennium to still hear that as a mode and not a minor key.
@the fight:
back off guys! :pac: haha only jokin.. :P
funky penguin i think your going on the very academic version of E minor in the college sense, did you do music in college? :P i think you have to give allowances outside the classroom to the natural minor. i know in college it wouldn't be looked at as that, and i'm aware that you might still be in that mind set, hell it took me ages to even write anything with a lowered after i finished! :eek:
so outside college, there needs to be allowances made for the natural minor, and i think to stevejazz, you need to make allowances that some people (mainly those in classical/academic music) will presume a sharpened 7th. when i hear someone say E minor, me brain adds a D# to the key signature, because that's what i'm used to. so make allowences that some people might be used to a different one than that. that or definitively call one the minor scale. you's can duke it out over whether you think it should be the natural or harmonic though, i'm staying out of that one! :pac:0 -
gavitron22 wrote: »ok, this might take me a while!
here's my (long) take on it from the start:
riffmongous:
to me, if you use the notes of the e minor scale, chances are you are in e minor. if you want to harmonise in a mode and use it properly, you need to work it out very carefully that you don't accidentally tonicise (make sound like home) the related key. say in this example you've written out your chords of the B phrygian, grand. but now look at your progression. this could be looked at as iv-III-II-i in B phrygian, but the problem is that it sounds a hell of a lot like i-VII-VI-V(7) in e minor. this isn't in B phrygian. it's in e minor because you use the e minor scale and more importantly e minor SOUNDS like home. i don't think that if you play those chords anyone will try to argue that the B actually sounds more resolved than e?
what your looking at here, and you need to watch for it and avoid it like the plague, in my opinion, is Chord Scale Theory or CST. in CST, they teach the major and minor scale in relation to modes, they might say play C ionian, then D dorian, then G mixolydian. this gives the guitarist an impression that this is somehow a modal progression, it's not. it's I-ii-V in C major. it helps guitarists visualise the notes of the scale, but it does not mean they are playing modally. this is in E minor.
if you do, for any reason, want to write modally, you need to choose your chords very carefully and make sure that they resolve (sound at home) with B minor. this will usually mean that you will only use maybe a two chord vamp, because any more will give the ear a very strong tendency to hear the related major or minor as home. so simply, it's in E minor, and be very very wary of CST without understanding it.
@funky penguin:
tbh i don't hear phrygian inn that, although it depends very much where you resolve your melody to etc, but to make that sound like phrygian, you'd need to have an understanding of modes greater than that of the TS (no offense meant riffmongus)
@riffmongus:
in this progression we have a major chord on the lowered 7th. do you know about the melodic minor scale? basically, in the melodic minor, when your going up to the tonic, you'll use #6-#7-8, and when your going down, you'll use 8-b7-b6. if you look at this progression (in e) you'll see the bass moving down from the tonic, hence 8-b7-b6-5. by the way, the melodic minor works like that in all voices, not just the melody.
@funky penguin
i don't really see a modulation here. i think the simplest explanation here would be what i said above with the lowered melodic minor being the basis, and then moving back to the dominant 7th
My problem with that is that it's the harmonic content that's using the melodic scale.
Modulation was the wrong word to use. So I (personally) am gonna say modal inflection instead then. :Pgavitron22 wrote: »@stevejazzx
i agree with the not modulating, but have to clear two things up here for the TS. a D# chord in this progression would be weird (wouldn't be the progression if it did have that), but the D#dim is in the key of E minor, so the TS might very well see it in a different piece in e minor.
also, it depends what type of E minor your talking about. there is no D# in the key signature of E minor (although harmonic minors used to have them in their own key signatures before hee key signatures were standardised). when i'm talking to someone who doesn't know theory and they say e minor, i'll presume E natural minor because chances are the usual seventh in a minor key in the music they play and listen to will be lowered. when i'm talking to someone who does know music theory, if they say E minor (as in the case) i'll presume it with a raised 7th unless it appears like this in downward motion from the tonic.
@funky penguin, i know you say it wouldn't be e minor, i'd say it could be e natural minor, but that's just me, i don't usually use mode names and wouldn't really call e natural minor aeolian, as i think there is too much music in our ears in the last half a millennium to still hear that as a mode and not a minor key.
@the fight:
back off guys! :pac: haha only jokin.. :P
funky penguin i think your going on the very academic version of E minor in the college sense, did you do music in college? :P i think you have to give allowances outside the classroom to the natural minor. i know in college it wouldn't be looked at as that, and i'm aware that you might still be in that mind set, hell it took me ages to even write anything with a lowered after i finished! :eek:
so outside college, there needs to be allowances made for the natural minor, and i think to stevejazz, you need to make allowances that some people (mainly those in classical/academic music) will presume a sharpened 7th. when i hear someone say E minor, me brain adds a D# to the key signature, because that's what i'm used to. so make allowences that some people might be used to a different one than that. that or definitively call one the minor scale. you's can duke it out over whether you think it should be the natural or harmonic though, i'm staying out of that one! :pac:
Gah. It's tonality is e minor, I'm happy with calling it that.
And yes, 3 years undergrad, one postgrad, tutoring 1st years as well. So Western Classical harmony is beaten into my head. 0 -
Dear oh dear
Ok, first I should ask if anyone here actually has any experience of Flamenco?
At this point the argument is too confusing for me to understand, so I would ask if people could start from the very beginning, and give me the progression Em, D, C, B7, Am, Em, B7, Em.
And then explain to me what notes I should use for melodies, since that is what I'll be playing so that is what I would like to know. Thanks.0 -
riffmongous wrote: »Dear oh dear
Ok, first I should ask if anyone here actually has any experience of Flamenco?
At this point the argument is too confusing for me to understand, so I would ask if people could start from the very beginning, and give me the progression Em, D, C, B7, Am, EM, B7, Em.
And then explain to me what notes I should use for melodies, since that is what I'll be playing so that is what I would like to know. Thanks.
Hi RM
I've play mostly classical jazz but played bits of Flamenco here and there.
In the chord progression a straight eminor scale (e,f#,g,a,b,c,d,e) over first 5 chords and then use minor harmonic over the b7.
If you play the natural d over that b7 you'll get a blusey sound which is not good for flamenco! If this were a minor blues (we'd leave out the d and c chords) and use a five note e, g, a, b, d. (penta) scale.
In this sequence however you need to stress the b7. The eminor harmonic scale (e, f#, g, a, b c, d#, e) is same as that phrygian scale except that starts and finishes on b)
http://www.may-studio-music-lessons.com/support-files/guitarscalemodesphrygianebfscs.pdf
see second example.
Over the B7 - Em try an ascending run like this
g,f# (d string)
c, b (g string)
g, f#, e, d# (b string)
b (g string)
The G and C notes cause tension over the b7 resolving to the f# (5th) and b natural (1st). The dominant 7th is made up from the 1st, major 3rd, fifth and 7th notes. Using the notes a semi-tone up from these notes creates a need for resolution. If you listen to flamenco there are some strong tensions created which resolve.
If you start the b phrygian scale early (starting on the eminor leading into the b7) you'll start to hear that spanishy sound (this is also a jazz technique where you can use leading tones etc. or even dom. 7ths that aren't there).
You can start to push that d# into the chords but be careful with d natural chord.
Hoped that helped
steve0 -
stevejazzx wrote: »In this sequence however you need to stress the b7. The eminor harmonic scale (e, f#, g, a, b c, d#, e) is same as that phrygian scale except that starts and finishes on b)
Just to note that the phrygian is not the same as the harmonic minor nor is it derived from it.
Good post though
You're at liberty to use non-chord tones on the off beats, i.e. on the "and of" beats.
So you can use the phrygian mode or the harmonic minor. It's probably easier to think about it without using scales, but rather that the extra notes that you add have their own specific colour. So you have the basic chord, plus embellishment.
Otherwise, you can use whichever minor scale over the minor chord. You can use minor, phrygian, harmonic minor, dorian. But they'll each have a unique sound. And you can change between them.
So an example using the phrygian mode would be something like this:
E|
B|
G|--9
10--9--8--7
5
5--7--5--4--8--
D|
9
7
5
5
A|
10--8--7
9--7--5
5--6--7
E|
Phrygian mode at the start and then the B7 implies E harmonic minor with the D#.
EDIT: That's over the first 4 chords in mostly 8th notes. A whole note on the first D (5) and then on the one of the next bar in 8th notes. The 5 7 5 is a triplet at the end. Sorry, I'm no good at tab and I have no recording.0 -
Just to note that the phrygian is not the same as the harmonic minor nor is it derived from it.
Yep sorry should have just standard eminor not harmonic in relation to phrygian as point was same notes etc. I'll make an edit! It's been a confusing thread and I was over simplifying trying to find out where OP was at.Good post though
You're at liberty to use non-chord tones on the off beats, i.e. on the "and of" beats.
So you can use the phrygian mode or the harmonic minor. It's probably easier to think about it without using scales, but rather that the extra notes that you add have their own specific colour. So you have the basic chord, plus embellishment.
Otherwise, you can use whichever minor scale over the minor chord. You can use minor, phrygian, harmonic minor,. But they'll each have a unique sound. And you can change between them.
Nice explanation; and I know you didn't it literally but in this chord sequence the dorian is probably not going to happen. The sharpened 5th sound of the c natural over both the eminor and b7 is really important and also over d maj chord to imply dominant leading to major (G) which is why we get that nice sound it goes back to minor.
So an example using the phrygian mode would be something like this:
E|
B|
G|--9
10--9--8--7
5
5--7--5--4--8--
D|
9
7
5
5
A|
10--8--7
9--7--5
5--6--7
E|
Phrygian mode at the start and then the B7 implies E harmonic minor with the D#.
Nice run - it's a pity you don't have a recording for OP as I imagine if not played correctly those f naturals might be confusing even though I can see them as passing notes.0
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