Irish Promotions Thread *Please read post 1* (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

leggo

Oh I’ll give you one better and say not just IWW, but I think I’m the only person involved in any way with the scene who still posts here, so if I see stuff about the likes of Fight Factory, OTT or talent in general that I see as unfair, I’m going to correct it and add balance. I also agree with a lot of stuff that can be said, but I’m not going to post “I agree with this” unless I’ve something worth adding (nor am I going to pile on someone because ultimately I know a lot of these people and know they’re just working hard, often for little money, trying to achieve their dream and don’t deserve to get **** on like they’re on Roman Reigns money), so yeah you’ll see me mostly in that position.

I’d also disagree that it gets romanticised, if anything for me it gets forgotten about aside from the nostalgia of a few people who were around. And why would you try take that away? They weren’t at OTT level, nobody is ever arguing that, but people still enjoyed good times and you needed an IWW and NWA Ireland for an OTT to ever be possible. Let fans have their memories, leave lads who’ve long quit wrestling and are now plumbers or whatever with families and kids alone, none of this talk causes any harm and there’s absolutely no need for it to descend into arguments.

Anyway let’s steer this ship back on course now all biases have been clarified: Manson to OTT looks a no-go. But how would you guys book him if he did end up agreeing to it?

Sirsok

leggo wrote: »

Oh I’ll give you one better and say not just IWW, but I think I’m the only person involved in any way with the scene who still posts here, so if I see stuff about the likes of Fight Factory, OTT or talent in general that I see as unfair, I’m going to correct it and add balance. I also agree with a lot of stuff that can be said, but I’m not going to post “I agree with this” unless I’ve something worth adding (nor am I going to pile on someone), so yeah you’ll see me mostly in that position.

Anyway let’s steer this ship back on course now all biases have been clarified: Manson to OTT looks a no-go. But how would you guys book him if he did end up agreeing to it?

He has stopped replying in twitter after my last question

I'd have Angel Cruz finally be break and committed to a mental institution , as a result of the rapture. They throw him in a straight jacket etc.....

Next show B Cool confronts The Rapture.....beat down ensues.....only for Angel Cruz with the save. He says he was never put into a mental institution, and the rapture are stupid for thinking they could of just of just dropped him off there etc.....but he did go inside and he met a very interesting person, who agreed to help the Angel Cruzers in a six man match against The Rapture....he is Mad Man Manson.... manson appears and screen cutting a promo the wrong way from the camera stating he'll be at the next show.

SquidLad

Dy'a know what would be really fun? And this is pure fantasy but what if in 2022 OTT did like a 20th anniversary of Irish wrestling show in the Tallaght basketball arena? Let your imaginations run wild with that one. All the faces they could bring back for one night. It would be amazing.

Omackeral

SquidLad wrote: »

Nah, it's all about execution. Martina's way more talented then Bruiser IMO.

Thought Bruiser was terrible myself. Never really in shape and that documentary (shot totally out of kayfabe) where he pretended to be angry for losing to Doug Williams was bloody cringey. Just didn’t really believe it either. As for a game changer of a gimmick or a pre cursor to the Session Moth gimmick... not buying it really.

Session moths are quite relevant as a social thing te last few years. I don’t think Martina is overly amazing or polished as a wrestler but she’s got good charisma and is likeable and the gimmick travels better than Ballymun Bruiser as evidenced by her bookings.

leggo

Sirsok wrote: »

He has stopped replying in twitter after my last question

I'd have Angel Cruz finally be break and committed to a mental institution , as a result of the rapture. They throw him in a straight jacket etc.....

Next show B Cool confronts The Rapture.....beat down ensues.....only for Angel Cruz with the save. He says he was never put into a mental institution, and the rapture are stupid for thinking they could of just of just dropped him off there etc.....but he did go inside and he met a very interesting person, who agreed to help the Angel Cruzers in a six man match against The Rapture....he is Mad Man Manson.... manson appears and screen cutting a promo the wrong way from the camera stating he'll be at the next show.

Angel Cruz ends up in New Bedlam! Man you’ve made my day with that idea!

Omackeral

SquidLad wrote: »

Dy'a know what would be really fun? And this is pure fantasy but what if in 2022 OTT did like a 20th anniversary of Irish wrestling show in the Tallaght basketball arena? Let your imaginations run wild with that one. All the faces they could bring back for one night. It would be amazing.

My missus has been to two OTT shows, she loves it. One in Suir Road and one in the National Stadium. She asked if the Basketball Arena would be a good spot for a show. I remember going there in 2002 extremely hungover and sick as a dog so can't recall what the atmosphere was like. Would it work for an OTT show?

I remember the show was cool though, had Jody Fleisch vs Jonny Storm in a battle and a half!

SquidLad

Omackeral wrote: »

My missus has been to two OTT shows, she loves it. One in Suir Road and one in the National Stadium. She asked if the Basketball Arena would be a good spot for a show. I remember going there in 2002 extremely hungover and sick as a dog so can't recall what the atmosphere was like. Would it work for an OTT show?

I remember the show was cool though, had Jody Fleisch vs Jonny Storm in a battle and a half!

Well that's the only reason I mentioned it. Simply because it was where IWW had their debut show. So about as accurate as it gets to claim the place as the 'birthplace of Irish wrestling'.

weareallmarks

Lads, you cant compare something from 2005 to what is happening in 2018. It is like comparing the avengers 17 (or whatever the new one is) to gone with the wind. Both are good but both are different. 

In terms of wrestling, there wouldnt be anything on this island without the crew who stared it. All comparisons are stupid. massive changes have happened since..... 
But if you liked it you are right, if you hates it then you are also right.

leggo

Omackeral wrote: »

My missus has been to two OTT shows, she loves it. One in Suir Road and one in the National Stadium. She asked if the Basketball Arena would be a good spot for a show. I remember going there in 2002 extremely hungover and sick as a dog so can't recall what the atmosphere was like. Would it work for an OTT show?

I remember the show was cool though, had Jody Fleisch vs Jonny Storm in a battle and a half!

It’d be an awkward spot for them with what they look for: 1200 means they’d need to load up with imports but not fully, Tallaght is out of the way (Suir Road just kinda happened cus it was where MSW used to run and is handy on the Luas), it’d be a massive risk that they don’t really need I’d say. They have the National Stadium and have filled that when needed, the only reason it’d make sense is if the Stadium ended up going the way of the Tiv one day, which doesn’t seem on the cards.

SquidLad

weareallmarks wrote: »

Lads, you cant compare something from 2005 to what is happening in 2018. It is like comparing the avengers 17 (or whatever the new one is) to gone with the wind. Both are good but both are different. 

In terms of wrestling, there wouldnt be anything on this island without the crew who stared it. All comparisons are stupid. massive changes have happened since..... 
But if you liked it you are right, if you hates it then you are also right.

I had this arguement with Leggo a couple of months ago who made this exact point and my answer is the same. I don't consider 'It was x amount of years ago' as an acceptable defense against criticism.

Omackeral

What's the capacity for the Tivoli? 400-500 or so? The National Stadium is obviously too big to run all the time but that makes it all the more special when they do run it. Any more than two or three times a year would probably hurt it. Is there anything between the two venues capacity wise that could work when the Tiv goes?

Omackeral

SquidLad wrote: »

I had this arguement with Leggo a couple of months ago who made this exact point and my answer is the same. I don't consider 'It was x amount of years ago' as an acceptable defense against criticism.

IWW was what it was. It was lads and girls doing their absolute best for a niche audience and families. It had some good talent in it and some great workers. It's a lot easier now to generate hype and buzz around 'underground' things with social media. Without sounding like a prick, you can then show everyone online how cool and alternative you are by hashtagging and checking in at these things. You've the likes of Lovin' Dublin and Joe.ie giving them column inches. It can be marketed as a night out now too.

Then you the general feeling towards indies now, not just in the UK and Ireland but in the States also. You've got the gritty product, the workrate, the characters you can relate to as well as legit world class athletes and the possibility of seeing the next starts to be signed by WWE. It's night and day and I don't think many would argue with that.

leggo

SquidLad wrote: »

I had this arguement with Leggo a couple of months ago who made this exact point and my answer is the same. I don't consider 'It was x amount of years ago' as an acceptable defense against criticism.

And this is why biases get called into play, because anyone with the slightest concept of perspective can see that there’s a difference in something that started from nothing and something that came from years of work, experience and learning. It’s like slagging an FA Cup Final from the 1920’s and saying it’s no comparison to one today because the players are better now. Well, duh.

Anyway, we’re going round in circles again, let’s not.

SquidLad

Omackeral wrote: »

IWW was what it was. It was lads and girls doing their absolute best for a niche audience and families. It had some good talent in it and some great workers. It's a lot easier now to generate hype and buzz around 'underground' things with social media. Without sounding like a prick, you can then show everyone online how cool and alternative you are by hashtagging and checking in at these things. You've the likes of Lovin' Dublin and Joe.ie giving them column inches. It can be marketed as a night out now too.

Then you the general feeling towards indies now, not just in the UK and Ireland but in the States also. You've got the gritty product, the workrate, the characters you can relate to as well as legit world class athletes and the possibility of seeing the next starts to be signed by WWE. It's night and day and I don't think many would argue with that.

Yeah, sure, absolutely. IWW was what is was. It was a different time and they didn't have the same opportunities that OTT have today. But there still such a thing as something being objectively good/bad.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

And this is why biases get called into play, because anyone with the slightest concept of perspective can see that there’s a difference in something that started from nothing and something that came from years of work, experience and learning. It’s like slagging an FA Cup Final from the 1920’s and saying it’s no comparison to one today because the players are better now. Well, duh.

Anyway, we’re going round in circles again, let’s not.

No, your making the same fallacy that you did before. That being that "old + low budget = low quality" which I disagree with. And I'll bring up the same example that I did a few months ago. Mid 2000s Chikara. Which had one trainer, handful of rookies, no productions values, crap venues and still managed to be a fantastic product in it's own way.

Omackeral

SquidLad wrote: »

Yeah, sure, absolutely. IWW was what is was. It was a different time and they didn't have the same opportunities that OTT have today. But there still such a thing as something being objectively good/bad.

I agree with you. Some of the talent wasn't great but much of it was. They were providing live wrestling for the fans when nobody else was. So it was, in essence, the best going. The UK scene was pretty grim at the time too I believe so it was no mean feat to get shows with 100's of people at them on this island without a massive corporate drive. I thought they did well. I'm not sure what happened in the latter years or if the other promotions were splinter groups but as a fan, I always came away happy or I had a laugh, that's all ya want really. It's wrestling, fake fighting, a bitta craic.

SquidLad

Can I just say real quick, in case anyone thinks this is what I'm getting at. I am in no way saying IWW should have been as good as OTT today. That wouldn't be a fair statement for obvious reasons. However in an objective comparison of quality, all I can be is honest. IWW just wasn't that good in my opinion.

leggo

Omackeral wrote: »

IWW was what it was. It was lads and girls doing their absolute best for a niche audience and families. It had some good talent in it and some great workers. It's a lot easier now to generate hype and buzz around 'underground' things with social media. Without sounding like a prick, you can then show everyone online how cool and alternative you are by hashtagging and checking in at these things. You've the likes of Lovin' Dublin and Joe.ie giving them column inches. It can be marketed as a night out now too.

Then you the general feeling towards indies now, not just in the UK and Ireland but in the States also. You've got the gritty product, the workrate, the characters you can relate to as well as legit world class athletes and the possibility of seeing the next starts to be signed by WWE. It's night and day and I don't think many would argue with that.

Great summary. Another thing a lot people don’t necessarily appreciate, and I only had this discussion the other day, is that it’s actually a lot easier to do and sell over 18’s, whereas that’s only become a thing in recent years. We’d have all KILLED to be able to do that stuff way back, wrestle indie style matches (well, not me, people who were arsed bumping), do worked shoots or meta comedy stuff, the kinda creatively free stuff that really we could only ever do at gym shows that drew 20 people, because that was the ‘smart’ audience then. Now the people who watched as kids back then are grown up so there’s an actual full market to do that and OTT can just mine away at that market without having to worry about pulling back.

Back then you didn’t have kids or adult shows, you looked out from the curtain before bell time and took a swing at what kinda crowd you’d work and catered your match accordingly, then whoever would be in the opener would tell you what it’s like and you adjust again because you had to play the hand you were dealt.

So to say ‘Session Moth now is better than Ballymun Bruiser was then’, for example, is harsh because Martina knows right away what kinda crowd she’s got and can just zone in character wise, whereas Bruiser had to do an over-18’s gimmick to whatever crowd he was in front of that night. They’re two similar gimmicks but two completely different set of circumstances and challenges. Of course everyone is entitled to like/dislike whatever they want, taste is subjective, but it’s when those big sweeping statements come into play it gets contentious.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

Great summary. Another thing a lot people don’t necessarily appreciate, and I only had this discussion the other day, is that it’s actually a lot easier to do and sell over 18’s, whereas that’s only become a thing in recent years. We’d have all KILLED to be able to do that stuff way back, wrestle indie style matches (well, not me, people who were arsed bumping), do worked shoots or meta comedy stuff, the kinda creatively free stuff that really we could only ever do at gym shows that drew 20 people, because that was the ‘smart’ audience then. Now the people who watched as kids back then are grown up so there’s an actual full market to do that and OTT can just mine away at that market without having to worry about pulling back.

Back then you didn’t have kids or adult shows, you looked out from the curtain before bell time and took a swing at what kinda crowd you’d work and catered your match accordingly, then whoever would be in the opener would tell you what it’s like and you adjust again because you had to play the hand you were dealt.

So to say ‘Session Moth now is better than Ballymun Bruiser was then’, for example, is harsh because Martina knows right away what kinda crowd she’s got and can just zone in character wise, whereas Bruiser had to do an over-18’s gimmick to whatever crowd he was in front of that night. They’re two similar gimmicks but two completely different set of circumstances and challenges. Of course everyone is entitled to like/dislike whatever they want, taste is subjective, but it’s when those big sweeping statements come into play it gets contentious.

I don't understand why you won't defend anything on it's own merit. Instead of "Ballymun Bruiser was good because..." it's always "it's not fair to say Ballymun Bruiser was bad because...".

leggo

SquidLad wrote: »

No, your making the same fallacy that you did before. That being that "old + low budget = low quality" which I disagree with. And I'll bring up the same example that I did a few months ago. Mid 2000s Chikara. Which had one trainer, handful of rookies, no productions values, crap venues and still managed to be a fantastic product in it's own way.

Not the same. I mean you're trying to put me in a box I'm not willing to be in where I almost have to criticise Chikara to validate my point, and I love what Chikara have done, they deserve the upmost respect for it. But it's a completely different set of circumstances.

For a start, say what you want about Americans, but there's a lot of them and the Irish indie scene simply couldn't facilitate a company as high concept as Chikara. Maybe it could today, maybe, but not in 2002-4. It would've been absolutely mental to try! A company based in Philadelphia post-ECW isn't the same comparably to a company based in Ireland post....nothing. There was zero road map for what could work in Irish wrestling and nobody experienced to teach people who wanted to start that project. IWW had to basically train their own roster with whoever they could find that was willing to teach, learn how to promote, figure out what fans wanted and how to give it to them, find locations to perform in and build up these towns themselves, try get any media to cover them and help with exposure, then figure out stuff like what mediums it would work (so TV/DVD) by simple trial and error.

In NWA, they had the knowledge Fergal Devitt and Paul Tracey had had bestowed on them by Andre Baker in Hammerlock to work off building a roster. In IWW, they had a dude who lied about his level of training in the Dungeon, occasional guest seminars from indie A-listers, a BritWres journeyman who got kicked out of Sheamus' home for stealing and had to live in the gym for the few months he stuck around before getting the boot (because they couldn't find another trainer), another BritWres journeyman (Greg Burridge) who was excellent but only starting his own career and couldn't commit long-term, then the lads teaching themselves based off whatever scraps they could pick up. In other words, we all had scraps to work off and were trying to start a fire with two rocks. And yet between IWW, NWA and what was going on up North, we started a fire that's now, by proxy, led to OTT and an exploding scene.

Again, everyone else can comprehend this nuance, yet you can't. So that's why you're taking L's around the board whenever you just write it off as 'bad'. The truth of the matter is what people got was better than it had any right to be! The scene now is also overachieving in a huge way too. Even with the advantages OTT has going for them that others didn't, they're still knocking it out of the park in building on that and evolving it into something else entirely.

Cherry_Cola

Who supposedly trained in the Dungeon?

leggo

SquidLad wrote: »

I don't understand why you won't defend anything on it's own merit. Instead of "Ballymun Bruiser was good because..." it's always "it's not fair to say Ballymun Bruiser was bad because...".

Give me a compelling, consistent argument that can stand on its own feet and I'll happily go point for point. Give me one riddled with inconsistencies and I'm going to take the easiest route in picking them off before even acknowledging the point, which isn't even relevant until it's consistent and can stand on its own merit.

Omackeral

Cherry_Cola wrote: »

Who supposedly trained in the Dungeon?

Never mind that, who got kicked out of Sheamus' house?!

leggo

I've said way too much. :pac:

Ah I'm not looking to slate people, I was just trying to give perspective on how hard it was to find people to actually train wrestlers in Ireland back in the day. I'd imagine they had an easier time of it in Philly.

Omackeral

Ah leggo you're like one of those dodgy Mean Gene Hotlines back in the the day!

Find out which former World Champion died this morning in a hotel room from only $1.99 a minute

brianblaze

leggo wrote: »

I've said way too much. :pac:

Ah I'm not looking to slate people, I was just trying to give perspective on how hard it was to find people to actually train wrestlers in Ireland back in the day. I'd imagine they had an easier time of it in Philly.

Hahahaha, oh the dark days.... In fairness, can't blame a guy for seeing an opening and slotting himself in there... At least that ended quickly, and the guys got some amazing trainers in for seminars like Doug/ D'Lo/ AJ/ Raven back in the day...

(But also, he was a joke! I think this came off as defending him!)

leggo

brianblaze wrote: »

Hahahaha, oh the dark days.... In fairness, can't blame a guy for seeing an opening and slotting himself in there... At least that ended quickly, and the guys got some amazing trainers in for seminars like Doug/ D'Lo/ AJ/ Raven back in the day...

(But also, he was a joke! I think this came off as defending him!)

To be fair, I completely agree there too, he just took a gig that anyone else would. We've all dressed up our CVs and exaggerated in interviews! There's an amazing story (that I wasn't present for) about AJ Styles taking a seminar and asking where the hell the guys learned to bump and run the ropes because it was completely wrong. Apparently the trainer quickly disappeared out the back door, never to be seen there again!

Sirsok

leggo wrote: »

To be fair, I completely agree there too, he just took a gig that anyone else would. We've all dressed up our CVs and exaggerated in interviews! There's an amazing story (that I wasn't present for) about AJ Styles taking a seminar and asking where the hell the guys learned to bump and run the ropes because it was completely wrong. Apparently the trainer quickly disappeared out the back door, never to be seen there again!

The Bagpipe report is up on youtube I just seen , there he is interviewing AJ Styles....and his page has him actually with stu in the dungeon

leggo

Like I said, I'm not trying to slate anyone, I've had no experiences myself with the guy so I've no personal feelings either way. They're just funny stories from years ago now. I've been involved in my own collection of not-too-flattering experiences as a young leggo so would be the last to judge anyone else. We were all just kids in a scene that was a baby in itself.

Omackeral

leggo wrote: »

I've been involved in my own collection of not-too-flattering experiences as a young leggo so would be the last to judge anyone else.

Get spilling Rick! Come on, we're all mates here.