Irish Promotions Thread *Please read post 1* (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

leggo

Not a chance I'm posting my own dirt. I'm going to enjoy these few hours of peace before anonymous new accounts come in and post all of my shameful stories as revenge for me talking out of hand and I slither off into the distance forever.

Omackeral

Ah I wanted a sleazy heel turn.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

Not the same. I mean you're trying to put me in a box I'm not willing to be in where I almost have to criticise Chikara to validate my point, and I love what Chikara have done, they deserve the upmost respect for it. But it's a completely different set of circumstances.

For a start, say what you want about Americans, but there's a lot of them and the Irish indie scene simply couldn't facilitate a company as high concept as Chikara. Maybe it could today, maybe, but not in 2002-4. It would've been absolutely mental to try! A company based in Philadelphia post-ECW isn't the same comparably to a company based in Ireland post....nothing. There was zero road map for what could work in Irish wrestling and nobody experienced to teach people who wanted to start that project. IWW had to basically train their own roster with whoever they could find that was willing to teach, learn how to promote, figure out what fans wanted and how to give it to them, find locations to perform in and build up these towns themselves, try get any media to cover them and help with exposure, then figure out stuff like what mediums it would work (so TV/DVD) by simple trial and error.

In NWA, they had the knowledge Fergal Devitt and Paul Tracey had had bestowed on them by Andre Baker in Hammerlock to work off building a roster. In IWW, they had a dude who lied about his level of training in the Dungeon, occasional guest seminars from indie A-listers, a BritWres journeyman who got kicked out of Sheamus' home for stealing and had to live in the gym for the few months he stuck around before getting the boot (because they couldn't find another trainer), another BritWres journeyman (Greg Burridge) who was excellent but only starting his own career and couldn't commit long-term, then the lads teaching themselves based off whatever scraps they could pick up. In other words, we all had scraps to work off and were trying to start a fire with two rocks. And yet between IWW, NWA and what was going on up North, we started a fire that's now, by proxy, led to OTT and an exploding scene.

Again, everyone else can comprehend this nuance, yet you can't. So that's why you're taking L's around the board whenever you just write it off as 'bad'. The truth of the matter is what people got was better than it had any right to be! The scene now is also overachieving in a huge way too. Even with the advantages OTT has going for them that others didn't, they're still knocking it out of the park in building on that and evolving it into something else entirely.

And once again, for about the 100th time, an explanation of why something is bad is not an argument for it being good. I say "IWW wasn't so good", you say "well IWW had this obstacle and that road-bump and it wasn't a different time...." and so on and on and on. I get that, I get all of this. I understand why IWW was what it was, but that has no bearing on a retrospective appraisal of its quality. If it did, 'Robot Monster' would probably be the greatest film of all time. After all, the logic of minimal resources somehow sheltering a piece of art from negative criticism can be taken to any ludicrous extreme.

And no, I'm not asking you to criticize Chikara. I'm using it as an illustration of how something can be low budget, have minimal resources and still be good. You keep making excuses, and that's what they are, excuses, for why the comparison to Chikara, OTT is unfair. But you have never once attempted to defend IWW on it's own merits. I would genuinely be interested in hearing that. But I suspect the reason why you haven't is because you can't. Which is why you're forever relying on the 'poor IWW, go easy on them, they had a rough go of it' tactic. Which if I somehow haven't made it clear yet, I really really don't care about.

brianblaze

Sirsok wrote: »

leggo wrote: »

To be fair, I completely agree there too, he just took a gig that anyone else would. We've all dressed up our CVs and exaggerated in interviews! There's an amazing story (that I wasn't present for) about AJ Styles taking a seminar and asking where the hell the guys learned to bump and run the ropes because it was completely wrong. Apparently the trainer quickly disappeared out the back door, never to be seen there again!

The Bagpipe report is up on youtube I just seen , there he is interviewing AJ Styles....and his page has him actually with stu in the dungeon

He did a doc on training with the one of the many Hart's but I think he wasn't very athletically or mechanically gifted and probably not inherently that great a trainer. He was very good at making connections, like with IWW, the Wrestling Channel and Bryan Alvarez, but I think it all boiled down to questioning the CV when it became obvious there were some embellishments. ..

leggo

SquidLad wrote: »

And once again, for about the 100th time, an explanation of why something is bad is not an argument for it being good. I say "IWW wasn't so good", you say "well IWW had this obstacle and that road-bump and it wasn't a different time...." and so on and on and on. I get that, I get all of this. I understand why IWW was what it was, but that has no bearing on a retrospective appraisal of its quality. If it did, 'Robot Monster' would probably be the greatest film of all time. After all, the logic of minimal resources somehow sheltering a piece of art from negative criticism can be taken to any ludicrous extreme.

And no, I'm not asking you to criticize Chikara. I'm using it as an illustration of how something can be low budget, have minimal resources and still be good. You keep making excuses, and that's what they are, excuses, for why the comparison to Chikara, OTT is unfair. But you have never once attempted to defend IWW on it's own merits. I would genuinely be interested in hearing that. But I suspect the reason why you haven't is because you can't. Which is why you're forever relying on the 'poor IWW, go easy on them, they had a rough go of it' tactic. Which if I somehow haven't made it clear yet, I really really don't care about.

What do you think saying stuff like “really overachieved” is if not defending something ‘on its own merits’? You’re setting ridiculous merits for it: compare it to OTT, compare it to a promotion in a well-established wrestling town started by someone with experience, compare it to WWE, whoever (you then row back on said points as each one is proven tenuous). None of that is ‘on its own merits’. On its actual merit, IWW is more akin to Great Power Uti trying to start pro-wrestling in Nigeria, and it compares extremely favourable in that respect! Whereas wrestling in Ireland (when there was none) could’ve been a vanity project used to satiate a market but really line the pockets of one man abusing the system, instead it became a team endeavour with rival promotions and schools pushing each other to be better to the point that now we have the wonderful abundance of choice we have today. That is the exact merit to gauge whether it was ‘good’ or ‘bad’, because that was the actual situation. You don’t have to enjoy or like it, mind, nobody is saying you should. But if you want to be taken seriously it’s something you need to get your head around.

If there had never been wrestling in Philadelphia before Chikara, it’d be a fair comparison. But that wasn’t the case: up until the year before, one of the biggest promotions in the world was based there! It’s one of the most historic wrestling towns with no shortage of resources and market for the right idea to succeed. Chikara is more comparable as a business model to OTT, or even Fight Factory in 2018 as content. That’s a discussion you can have.

And if you continue to not understand, consider this: Nobody else here is struggling with this concept. Just you.

SquidLad

leggo wrote: »

Instead it became a team endeavour with rival promotions and schools pushing each other to be better to the point that now we have the wonderful abundance of choice we have today.

You see I would still contend that this is an argument for a whole other topic. Something along the lines "IWW had a positive impact on the wrestling industry, discuss". Whereas I'm only concerned with the actual product they put out. I mean, they are tangentially related but if you want to convince me that IWW was better than I'm making out then name good wrestlers, matches, shows etc...

leggo wrote: »

That is the exact merit to gauge whether it was ‘good’ or ‘bad’, because that was the actual situation. You don’t have to enjoy or like it, mind, nobody is saying you should. But if you want to be taken seriously it’s something you need to get your head around.

I disagree. Or at least I disagree that it's the merit to gauge whether or not IWW had a good product. The terrible show I went to in 2007 that was held in a lecture hall in front of 40 people is not retrospectively made better by the fact that IWW had a positive effect on the Irish wrestling scene.

leggo wrote: »

If there had never been wrestling in Philadelphia before Chikara, it’d be a fair comparison. But that wasn’t the case: up until the year before, one of the biggest promotions in the world was based there!

This is true but my larger point has always been 'low budget ≠low quality' and that still stands.

Sirsok

Just had a gander at whiplash tv....that ref lools quite familiar... Galloway V Shemus is a bit mad to see considering they went onto bigger things, and not that long after......wonder what ever happened to that ref?

SquidLad

Sirsok wrote: »

Just had a gander at whiplash tv....that ref lools quite familiar... Galloway V Shemus is a bit mad to see considering they went onto bigger things, and not that long after......wonder what ever happened to that ref?

You talking about Ger O'Brien? I remember him posting on the IWW forum 'The Chicken Has Left The Coop' or something. And that was the last we saw of him.

leggo

Sirsok wrote: »

Just had a gander at whiplash tv....that ref lools quite familiar... Galloway V Shemus is a bit mad to see considering they went onto bigger things, and not that long after......wonder what ever happened to that ref?

Say what you want about IWW but the reffing was always top class.

weareallmarks

how do i mute people on this forum ?

slicus ricus

Sirsok wrote: »

Just had a gander at whiplash tv....that ref lools quite familiar... Galloway V Shemus is a bit mad to see considering they went onto bigger things, and not that long after......wonder what ever happened to that ref?

It's interesting that back then, Sheamus was universally panned by the smarks on the Irish scene. Amazing to see how much he subsequently improved bell to bell and how much he went on to achieve in WWE. In some ways, the comparison of Sheamus back then vs Sheamus 5-10 years later mirrors the comparison being made above regarding IWW and OTT.

leggo

I watched back Sheamus vs D’Lo there after it popped up in Squared Circle randomly. He was actually really good considering his experience level back then and looked totally at home in there with D’Lo, and I remembered him as being a bit weak then. I think my memory was clouded by the negativity he used to get online. I think it was more a case of ‘hot take culture’ and it became fashionable to hate on him because he was ‘the guy’ here, not dissimilar to some of the crap Martina has to put up with now. And, just like Sheamus, I’d say if she got signed it’d be an overnight deal with her critics becoming her biggest fans.

slicus ricus

leggo wrote: »

I watched back Sheamus vs D’Lo there after it popped up in Squared Circle randomly. He was actually really good considering his experience level back then and looked totally at home in there with D’Lo, and I remembered him as being a bit weak then. I think my memory was clouded by the negativity he used to get online. I think it was more a case of ‘hot take culture’ and it became fashionable to hate on him because he was ‘the guy’ here, not dissimilar to some of the crap Martina has to put up with now. And, just like Sheamus, I’d say if she got signed it’d be an overnight deal with her critics becoming her biggest fans.

Yeh, I don't think the critics really understood how green Sheamus was back then. In fairness to the guy, he always stepped up no matter how far into the deep end he was thrown. Can't help but think that those experiences really stood to him when he hit the big time.

I wasn't even aware that Martina was getting sh*t on the internet or anything like that. Can't say I understand the logic behind people sh*ting on Irish wrestlers on the local scene - most are just regular people working regular jobs and doing wrestling part time, trying to follow the dream.

Sirsok

I guess when you pay for something people expect certain standards, I was on a IWW show where people paid 10e for a ticket and got only 4 wrestlers on the show. So understandably people will **** all over that. Just cause they are local and homegrown doesnt give them immunity from criticism for a paying public. You put yourself in the eye of the public, you'll get criticism regardless of what you donor where your from.

I have yet to hear a bad word about the Session Moth, she lifts the crowd everytime im there!

slicus ricus

Sirsok wrote: »

I guess when you pay for something people expect certain standards, I was on a IWW show where people paid 10e for a ticket and got only 4 wrestlers on the show. So understandably people will **** all over that. Just cause they are local and homegrown doesnt give them immunity from criticism for a paying public. You put yourself in the eye of the public, you'll get criticism regardless of what you donor where your from.

Seems like a fair enough criticism. While €10 is relatively inexpensive for a show that lasts several hours, it's not great value for money to see 4 wrestlers, particularly if more were advertised (which I presume more were).

Omackeral

Sirsok wrote: »

I have yet to hear a bad word about the Session Moth, she lifts the crowd everytime im there!

There were very audible boos for her at A Haven For Monsters and people were cheering when she got the sh*t kicked out of her by the heels. Also when Haskins and Dunne, her partners, were giving her abuse too.

sky88

Omackeral wrote: »

There were very audible boos for her at A Haven For Monsters and people were cheering when she got the sh*t kicked out of her by the heels. Also when Haskins and Dunne, her partners, were giving her abuse too.

would say ive tired somewaht of the gimmick now

Omackeral

sky88 wrote: »

would say ive tired somewaht of the gimmick now

It's no Ballymun Bruiser anyway.

Sirsok

Omackeral wrote: »

There were very audible boos for her at A Haven For Monsters and people were cheering when she got the sh*t kicked out of her by the heels. Also when Haskins and Dunne, her partners, were giving her abuse too.

Yeah I havent gone up in awhile to be fair, tried to pay at the door at last one but to no avail! Shame she seems to be getting bad reactions, can be fixed with an ould heel turn, isnt she heel in ICW?

Angron

Omackeral wrote: »

Ah leggo you're like one of those dodgy Mean Gene Hotlines back in the the day!

Find out which former World Champion died this morning in a hotel room from only $1.99 a minute

Just call 1-900-909-9900.

showpony1

Why is Wrestlerama in Suir Road and not the National Stadium.
Unassigned seating, toilets, bar, being in amateurish looking cold hall & not a nice area all negatives of Suir Road imho.

Tallaght Saint

showpony1 wrote:

Why is Wrestlerama in Suir Road and not the National Stadium. Unassigned seating, toilets, bar, being in amateurish looking cold hall & not a nice area all negatives of Suir Road imho.

OTT said on twitter a few days back that the Stadium was booked up for a boxing event on the same day

SquidLad

weareallmarks wrote: »

how do i mute people on this forum ?

Sorry

showpony1

Tallaght Saint wrote: »

OTT said on twitter a few days back that the Stadium was booked up for a boxing event on the same day

poor planning from OTT?

SquidLad

showpony1 wrote: »

poor planning from OTT?

It kinda sounds like bollocks to me. Why couldn't they just do it on a different weekend?

oneilla

SquidLad wrote: »

It kinda sounds like bollocks to me. Why couldn't they just do it on a different weekend?

Probably the only weekend they could get the imports they've booked

SquidLad

oneilla wrote: »

Probably the only weekend they could get the imports they've booked

Yeah maybe. Still don't know why there's been like a ten euro price jump.

noisenotmusic

First announcements for Wrestlerama 2 are Matt Riddle vs Ishii, David Starr vs Timothy Thatcher & Shane Strickland vs KUSHIDA. Also the usual suspects of Devlin, WALTER, David Starr & Martina so far.

noisenotmusic

The venue is pretty small capacity for a "big" show like this one too.

SquidLad

I guess the only reason other than "because they can", is they've booked a lineup worthy of the stadium, in a venue less than half its size. Have to pass that extra expense onto the customers.