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When atheists go too far

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    #422
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Biggins wrote: »
    Its wolf in sheep's clothing - and they are the worst.
    If they are willing to stoop to that level - what others are they willing to go to and by what means!

    Precisely.

    And the likes of Jakkass/Philologos are by far the worst because they believe/pretend that they are tolerant, they believe/pretend that they are doing the right thing, they believe/pretend that they are acting in the interests of others, while, in reality, they advocate that homosexuals should have less rights than themselves (as Jakkass does), that those who use the regular oral contraceptive pill be criminalised (as Jakkass does) and that those who do not believe in god burn in hell for eternity* (as Jakkass does).

    *- while that latter assertion is, of course, laughable to many of us, what makes it genuinely disturbing is that Jakkass actually believes that you and I will burn for eternity, and is completely fine with it. That is evil, by any standard.


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    #423
    johnmcdnl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    drkpower wrote: »
    Precisely.



    Precisely.

    And the likes of Jakkass/Philologos are by far the worst because they believe/pretend that they are tolerant, they believe/pretend that they are doing the right thing, they believe/pretend that they are acting in the interests of others, while, in reality, they advocate that homosexuals should have less rights than themselves (as Jakkass does), that those who use the regular oral contraceptive pill be criminalised (as Jakkass does) and that those who do not believe in god burn in hell for eternity* (as Jakkass does).

    *- while that latter assertion is, of course, laughable to many of us, what makes it genuinely disturbing is that Jakkass actually believes that you and I will burn for eternity, and is completely fine with it. That is evil, by any standard.

    came across this quote just there
    With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

    Steven Weinberg


    and it's true as well... you can say hitler or stalin did evil things even though they were atheists.. (i know that hitler wasn't a proper aethist but anyways)

    but people who use religion to try to take away the rights of others such as homosexuals... that's evil in my eyes...

    - it's also kind of hypocritical isn't it when you see good christian being so judgmental.. doesn't Mark 12:30-31 say to love your neighbour as yourself... well taking the rights of gays away for one isn't loving others the same as yourself in my eyes...


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    #424
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    CDfm wrote: »
    Or you might conclude that he is a populist who does not want to piss off the home crowd.

    Thats exactly what I conclude to be honest.


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    #425
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    - it's also kind of hypocritical isn't it when you see good christian being so judgmental.. doesn't Mark 12:30-31 say to love your neighbour as yourself... well taking the rights of gays away for one isn't loving others the same as yourself in my eyes...

    Loving means seeking the very best for people. I would see the very best as being living a God-inspired life in this life and in the here-after.

    People can disagree with me if they like, but that's the way I aim to live my life. If you think that's evil sobeit. But ultimately God's standards are true and right as I see it.


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    #426
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    RichieC wrote: »
    Not really. the way it is in the US is you have to be religious to get elected! which is against their constitution but it's just a bit of hemp paper..


    It wouldn't surprise me in the least if half the elected officials in the US feign their beliefs to get elected.
    Yeah thats true. I'd say Obama is definitely agnostic at least but he has to appear to have faith. Cant Clinton as a pius man either.


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    #427
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Loving means seeking the very best for people. I would see the very best as being living a God-inspired life in this life and in the here-after.

    People can disagree with me if they like, but that's the way I aim to live my life. If you think that's evil sobeit. But ultimately God's standards are true and right as I see it.

    Truly and despicably evil. He would gladly see hundreds of thousands of his fellow Irish citizens, and billions of his fellow humans, most of them perfectly good decent people who just want the best for them and their families, burn in hell for eternity.... for what... for not sharing his belief.

    And he calls it love. Pure and utter evil.


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    #428
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ Who says that I want anyone to "burn in hell" for all eternity? - The simple answer is that I don't, I wouldn't wish it for my worst enemy. That's why I desire for all people to know God and know the benefit of faith in Him throughout their lives.

    When did I ever say that "I would gladly" see this? What kind of perverse mentality would that be? The last thing I want to see is anyone I know reject God at the end of all time.

    Good and decent? - We've all sinned and rejected God. We're all guilty (you, me and everyone else) but God in His mercy has given us the means to put it right with Him before the end of time. It is up to us to decide if we want to do this. If we don't we don't and we will be judged accordingly, if we do we will be saved and we will have the opportunity to restore our broken relationship with God. It is entirely down to us.


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    #429
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ Who says that I want anyone to "burn in hell" for all eternity? - The simple answer is that I don't, I wouldn't wish it for my worst enemy. That's why I desire for all people to know God and know the benefit of faith in Him throughout their lives.

    If they dont manage to share your faith, you do want them to "burn in hell" for all eternity. You have said it on this thread already.

    Dont try and run away from your obnoxious beliefs.


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    #430
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    sums a lot of it up - why don't all the christians believe in Allah or Buddha or Zeus or any other god... why do they believe that Jesus is the son of god and dismiss every other religion as wrong.. same goes for any other religion...

    Personally, I believe that God is perceived as described above, under various guises, by many different peoples. I do not have a problem with it.

    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    having my children taught in a public school that god create the earth and adam and eve were the first people on the earth and we're all descended from that is wrong... it's been proven this is false so children shouldn't be exposed to this is schools that are funded from my tax money... if parents want to teach their children about religion it should be done at their own expense in a private catholic school or outside school hours...


    Whooooooa! Rewind there!!!:eek: Your children are being taught in a school whose educational policies you disagree with? If I felt as strongly as you obviously do, I wouldn't have them there in the first instance. Short memories too. Taxes? What about when if it were not for the religious, many people wouldn't have had food or clothing - let alone an education. There is so much to be thankful to them for. Were they not hijacked by paedophiles it could have turned out very differently.

    The education which they gave you allowed you to question as you do. Never forget it.
    johnmcdnl wrote: »
    atheists aren't going to far - just trying to get people to see some common sense...

    Hmmm. Common sense. Allowing your children to be taught in a school which you have a problem with? Very sensible indeed.:rolleyes:


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    #431
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ Who says that I want anyone to "burn in hell" for all eternity? - The simple answer is that I don't, I wouldn't wish it for my worst enemy. That's why I desire for all people to know God and know the benefit of faith in Him throughout their lives.

    When did I ever say that "I would gladly" see this? What kind of perverse mentality would that be? The last thing I want to see is anyone I know reject God at the end of all time.

    But you still think that it's just that I, for example, will spend an eternity in Hell for not believing in your God. Isn't this true? If from now until the day that I die I don't come to believe in your God, you believe that it's just that I spend an eternity in Hell. You have to believe that it's just.

    That is what's so perverse about religion: it makes otherwise good people believe that horrible, horrible concepts are just and right.


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    #432
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    And what now confuses me, in the light of what you say, is why the sky fairy wouldn't want people to have knowledge of good and evil. Surely it would be desirable, from anyone's point of view, for people to know the difference between those two opposites?:confused:

    Why oh why do you and people like you so blatantly disrespect God and those who have faith in him? It is really, really sad IMHO.


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    #433
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    If they dont manage to share your faith, you do want them to "burn in hell" for all eternity. You have said it on this thread already.

    Dont try and run away from your obnoxious beliefs.

    I'm not running away from anything, but I certainly won't have you misrepresent me.

    I don't want anyone to go to hell. It is a great tragedy and it is something I take incredibly seriously. I think we all (including me) deserve to go to hell due to our rebellion against God, but that it doesn't have to be this way. That's why I would strongly advise not to be so foolish and give it the consideration that it deserves.

    Ultimately God's judgement is final and I defer everything to Him. I long for all people on the face of the earth even if they are the most evil person on the planet to repent and put their trust in Jesus so that their lives might be transformed for the better.

    I simply want others to have the same hope that I received from God when I put my whole trust in Him. As far as I can tell that's compassion. You can skew it whatever way you want, but your fate is in your hands. Its not in mine. I can only tell you about what I believe, it is up for you to decide for yourself.

    To claim that I want you to go to hell is wrong, very wrong, it's the last thing I want for anyone on the face of the earth.
    gvn wrote: »
    But you still think that it's just that I, for example, will spend an eternity in Hell for not believing in your God. Isn't this true? If from now until the day that I die I don't come to believe in your God, you believe that it's just that I spend an eternity in Hell. You have to believe that it's just.

    It would be just for me to be in hell as well in my opinion. The point is, I don't have to be there and neither do you.


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    #434
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Why oh why do you and people like you so blatantly disrespect God and those who have faith in him? It is really, really sad IMHO.

    Why oh why do you and people like you so blatantly disrespect _________ and those who _________?


    Hmmm, I could fill in the blanks with so many words and turn the question on you.


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    #435
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I'm not running away from anything, but I certainly won't have you misrepresent me..
    You have said it already in the thread. Now you want to look tolerant by pretending you do not actually believe something so utterly disgusting, and which makes you (rightly) look like a despicable individual.

    So, answer a very simple question: IF a person does not share your faith, do you believe that they will and they should burn in hell for eternity?


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    #436
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    philologos wrote: »
    It would be just for me to be in hell as well in my opinion. The point is, I don't have to be there and neither do you.
    So then if God sends you to heaven is it unjust?


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    #437
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I don't believe that anyone should be in hell. They should believe. God has given you a way through Jesus to be justified before Him and to start afresh. It is up to you to take it.

    I've committed myself to being a lifelong follower of the truth. But to construe this as me hating anyone is just ridiculous. I long for everyone to know God and to be truly saved. I don't care really if you think I'm a despicable individual. If that's what you think so be it.

    I think I've covered the subject of judgement incredibly thoroughly, so I'm going to leave that here.
    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    So then if God sends you to heaven is it unjust?

    I've been born again by faith in God. Christians believe that when they believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus that their old lives die with Him, and that they come to new life through His Resurrection. As such when God judges us we are going to be justified because Jesus has already paid for our sins. (Romans 6, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 Peter 1:3)

    If we don't believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus we are still caught in our sin and we won't be justified on Christ's behalf. (1 Corinthians 15 deals with this in full)

    In a sense it is unjust, but it is also the most powerful testimony of love the world has ever seen. God came and rescued us from ourselves. It is forgiveness in its truest form. I'm grateful of it and I aim to live each day of my life in thankfulness.


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    #438
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't believe that anyone should be in hell. They should believe. God has given you a way through Jesus to be justified before Him and to start afresh. It is up to you to take it.

    I've committed myself to being a lifelong follower of the truth. But to construe this as me hating anyone is just ridiculous. I long for everyone to know God and to be truly saved. I don't care really if you think I'm a despicable individual. If that's what you think so be it.

    I think I've covered the subject of judgement incredibly thoroughly, so I'm going to leave that here.

    You are clearly a hateful and disgusting individual. Your wish is that billions of people, unless they convert to your belief, should burn in hell for eternity. It is practically the definition of evil and hate.


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    #439
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't believe that anyone should be in hell. They should believe. God has given you a way through Jesus to be justified before Him and to start afresh. It is up to you to take it.

    I've committed myself to being a lifelong follower of the truth. But to construe this as me hating anyone is just ridiculous. I long for everyone to know God and to be truly saved. I don't care really if you think I'm a despicable individual. If that's what you think so be it.

    I think I've covered the subject of judgement incredibly thoroughly, so I'm going to leave that here.

    I don't think you have. Do you or do you not consider it just that someone who "rejects God" is sent to Hell? Likewise if someone who had "accepted Jesus" was sent to Hell, would that also be just, seeing as it would have to be God's doing?

    philologos wrote: »
    I've been born again by faith in God. Christians believe that when they believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus that their old lives die with Him, and that they come to new life through His Resurrection. As such when God judges us we are going to be justified because Jesus has already paid for our sins. (Romans 6, 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 Peter 1:3)

    If we don't believe in the death and Resurrection of Jesus we are still caught in our sin and we won't be justified on Christ's behalf. (1 Corinthians 15 deals with this in full)

    In a sense it is unjust, but it is also the most powerful testimony of love the world has ever seen. God came and rescued us. It is forgiveness in its truest form. I'm grateful of it and I aim to live each day of my life in thankfulness.

    But ultimately it is just, isn't it? And sending the ones who reject Jesus to Hell must be just, or else God is unjust


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    #440
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    You are clearly a hateful and disgusting individual. Your wish is that billions of people, unless they convert to your belief, should burn in hell for eternity. It is practically the definition of evil and hate.

    I've never said that once. My wish is that they would believe in Christ so that they don't have to experience that.

    You're quite a sophist though, I'll give you that. Hopefully others will see through your dishonesty.

    AhShurTisGrand: It's just, but God has given us a means of being forgiven in a way that pays the price that we deserved to pay.


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    #441
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I've never said that once. My wish is that they would believe in Christ so that they don't have to experience that.
    .
    Yes you have. But you are trying to deny your clearly expressed views. But lets give you a chance to clarify your position. If you dodge the answer, the conclusions will be obvious.

    IF a person does not share your faith, and if they do not convert to your faith, do you believe that they will and they should burn in hell for eternity?


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    #442
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I have answered very clearly: I don't think anyone should go to hell however if people reject God they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should go there. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision. That's my final position on this, any distortion is simply dishonest sophistry on your behalf that I have no time for.


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    #443
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Hey philologos. If God is so loving why create a place of eternal torment and suffering for his children if they're bold. Doesnt sound like a loving father to me, I'd never do that to my kids. Therefore I have more compassion than this God character.


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    #444
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Hey philologos. If God is so loving why create a place of eternal torment and suffering for his children if they're bold. Doesnt sound like a loving father to me, I'd never do that to my kids. Therefore I have more compassion than this God character.

    You're thinking solely about the bad news. The good news is that God offered us a way to be with Him forever through His Son by adoption (you are made a child of God through Christ). If you reject Him, that's your prerogative. You have turned down His mercy, His forgiveness and His love. He respects your free will, and as such leaves the decision in your hands rather than forcing you to do so. After all forced love isn't even love.


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    #445
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    philologos wrote: »
    AhShurTisGrand: It's just, but God has given us a means of being forgiven in a way that pays the price that we deserved to pay.

    So then it's not deserved at all by God's standards. Unless he is deciding not to give due punishment (as he sees it) to those who deserve it, which by his own standards is unjust


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    #446
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I have answered very clearly: I don't think anyone should go to hell however if people reject God they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should go there. .

    So IF a person does not share your faith, and if they do not convert to your faith, YOU DO believe that they will and they should burn in hell for eternity?

    Wishing the eternal pain and suffering on billions of good people. That is evil and dispicable by any standards.


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    #447
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    philologos wrote: »
    I long for everyone to know God and to be truly saved.

    I'd be fine with that, but the unfortunate thing is you probably want to force your believes on the rest of the population by having hateful and harmful legislation passed.


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    #448
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Hey philologos. If God is so loving why create a place of eternal torment and suffering for his children if they're bold. Doesnt sound like a loving father to me, I'd never do that to my kids. Therefore I have more compassion than this God character.

    Ah now. Are you living under some discarded passion-play scenery from the Dark Ages that you think God is just some static cut-out character you can wave around when you feel like throwing rocks at someone? Don't be facetious.


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    #449
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Hey philologos. If God is so loving why create a place of eternal torment and suffering for his children if they're bold. Doesnt sound like a loving father to me, I'd never do that to my kids. Therefore I have more compassion than this God character.

    Jesus was so great and merciful, he could heal the sick. But only the ones who he happened to venture across.


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    #450
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    So then it's not deserved at all by God's standards. Unless he is deciding not to give due punishment (as he sees it) to those who deserve it, which by his own standards is unjust

    Jesus took the punishment on our behalf. Indeed, the Jewish Tanakh prophesied this 600 years before this happened:
    Isaiah 53:4-5 wrote:
    Surely He took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
    But He was pierced for our transgressions,
    He was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on Him,
    and by His wounds we are healed.


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    #451
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Why oh why do you and people like you so blatantly disrespect God and those who have faith in him? It is really, really sad IMHO.

    I do not and could not disrespect something that does not exist. Or at least there is no evidence whatsoever that it exists, nor is such evidence ever likely to be produced. I respect the right of people to believe in anything they like, be it a deity, a great universal spirit, a flying spaghetti monster (as Richard Dawkins, I think, called it), a sky fairy and so, but I do not have to respect people who believe things that I find so patently absurd. Nor do I have to respect their right to demand that I respect them just because they believe in those things. :rolleyes:


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