When atheists go too far

MagicMarker

philologos wrote: »

You're thinking solely about the bad news. The good news is that God offered us a way to be with Him forever through His Son by adoption (you are made a child of God through Christ). If you reject Him, that's your prerogative. You have turned down His mercy, His forgiveness and His love. He respects your free will, and as such leaves the decision in your hands rather than forcing you to do so. After all forced love isn't even love.

Yep, he respects your free will by holding your eternal soul to ransom. Do what I want you to do and reap the rewards, disobey me and burn in hell.

philologos

mgmt wrote: »

I'd be fine with that, but the unfortunate thing is you probably want to force your believes on the rest of the population by having hateful and harmful legislation passed.

How? - I respect your liberty to decide for yourself. I just hope to God that you make the right decision.

I support freedom of and from religion in society. I think churches should be independent from Government and I also think that Christians shouldn't rely on the State to promote their beliefs or give them special treatment. We should try to share our beliefs ourselves.

What a glorious misconception eh? How about asking me first?

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yep, he respects your free will by holding your eternal soul to ransom. Do what I want you to do and reap the rewards, disobey me and burn in hell.

It's His world and He is Lord over it. He created guidelines for our ultimate benefit while living on this earth. If we reject them then I think we can expect to be punished. If we accept Him it isn't a case of us trying to follow Him alone, He will help us to live for Him fully in this world as we were created to do.

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

I support freedom of and from religion in society. I think churches should be independent from Government and I also think that Christians shouldn't rely on the State to promote their beliefs or give them special treatment. We should try to share our beliefs ourselves..

And you believe in criminalising women who use the oral contraceptive pill. Very tolerant.

dvpower

philologos wrote: »

I have answered very clearly: I don't think anyone should go to hell however if people reject God they will.

If people reject God, you do think they should go to hell. That's pretty clear and its a disgusting view to hold.

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://politico.ie/social-issues/science-tech/7573-richard-dawkins-interview-world-atheist-convention

Dawkins said he doesnt mind ridiculing other people's beleifs. Im an agnostic but I really dont see the point in constantly maintianing that anyone witha different view of the world to mine is stupid or wrong. Am I missing out on something here If history has taught us anything is intolerance of otiher people's beliefs has caused a huge amount of suffering in the past.

OP, It is absolutely the right thing to be intolerent of the kinds of beliefs philologos has expressed on this thread.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

Jesus took the punishment on our behalf. Indeed, the Jewish Tanakh prophesied this 600 years before this happened:

So the ordinary person no longer deserves the punishment (well if they've done the whole accepting Christ thingy). To send them to heaven is just, and to send the others to hell is just

Asry

dvpower wrote: »

If people reject God, you do think they should go to hell. That's pretty clear and its a disgusting view to hold.

...Surely, though, it's only people who believe that there is/could be a being such as God who would also believe in a place such as Hell? And yes, if people reject God, Hell is where they go. It's just doctrine. Get over yourself. If you don't believe it, fine - what do other people believing it have to do with you? Apart from those crazy Westboro Baptists shoving things down people's throats, I really don't see why you should bother getting up on your high horse and giving a damn.

dvpower

philologos wrote: »

I support freedom of and from religion in society.

Up to death. Then you support punishing the people who you say you support freedom from religion for, for an eternity in hell.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

How? - I respect your liberty to decide for yourself. I just hope to God that you make the right decision.

I support freedom of and from religion in society. I think churches should be independent from Government and I also think that Christians shouldn't rely on the State to promote their beliefs or give them special treatment. We should try to share our beliefs ourselves.

If you really cared so much about other people, you would do everything necessary to help them make the "right choice", seeing as you surely consider the most important choice they'll ever make

Ghost Buster

It's His world and He is Lord over it. He created guidelines for our ultimate benefit while living on this earth. If we reject them then I think we can expect to be punished. If we accept Him it isn't a case of us trying to follow Him alone, He will help us to live for Him fully in this world as we were created to do.[/QUOTE]

Kinda like a kid stamping on ants in his ant farm or adding a drop of bleach to his sea monkey tank. Sound almost man made rather than the workings of an uber being.....dontch think?

AhSureTisGrand

Asry wrote: »

...Surely, though, it's only people who believe that there is/could be a being such as God who would also believe in a place such as Hell? And yes, if people reject God, Hell is where they go. It's just doctrine. Get over yourself. If you don't believe it, fine - what do other people believing it have to do with you? Apart from those crazy Westboro Baptists shoving things down people's throats, I really don't see why you should bother getting up on your high horse and giving a damn.

Because this message of eternal suffering for billions of innocent people is called the "Good News"

philologos

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

So the ordinary person no longer deserves the punishment (well if they've done the whole accepting Christ thingy). To send them to heaven is just, and to send the others to hell is just

The difference is Jesus. We are saved by faith. God can tell if people sincerely put their faith in Christ or not. So it's not just a case that you kind of go to God and say "Ah yeah, I've done it". You have to mean it and truly believe in it. Faith changes and transforms lives.

It is essentially saying yeah God I've screwed up, but I really want you to be a part of my life and I want to follow you for the rest of my life and at least in my experience that means a whole lot to me even if people think it is stupid / evil / etc.

dvpower

Asry wrote: »

...Surely, though, it's only people who believe that there is/could be a being such as God who would also believe in a place such as Hell? And yes, if people reject God, Hell is where they go. It's just doctrine. Get over yourself. If you don't believe it, fine - what do other people believing it have to do with you? Apart from those crazy Westboro Baptists shoving things down people's throats, I really don't see why you should bother getting up on your high horse and giving a damn.

While I don't believe that God is real, philologos most certainly is real and his beliefs are real. A person that holds evil beliefs should be challenged - I'm sure most Christians would see this.

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

Faith changes and transforms lives.

It certainly does, according to you. If you dont have it, regardless of all the good things you might have done in your life, your wish and belief is that you will burn for eternity.

Love your neighbour indeed. Disgusting.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

The difference is Jesus. We are saved by faith. God can tell if people sincerely put their faith in Christ or not. So it's not just a case that you kind of go to God and say "Ah yeah, I've done it". You have to mean it and truly believe in it. Faith changes and transforms lives.

It is essentially saying yeah God I've screwed up, but I really want you to be a part of my life and I want to follow you for the rest of my life and at least in my experience that means a whole lot to me even if people think it is stupid / evil / etc.

So yeah, to send those who sincerely have faith in Jesus to Heaven is just, and to send those without faith to Hell is just

philologos

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

If you really cared so much about other people, you would do everything necessary to help them make the "right choice", seeing as you surely consider the most important choice they'll ever make

The best way is through personal evangelism and the influence of individual Christians not through coercion. Coercion is bound to fail. I would rather see people enthusiastic and excited about the Gospel rather than people who don't believe it at all being dragged to church.

More people are likely to commit to a true living relationship with God in societies which offer full freedom of religion rather than those who coerce people to believe. Coercion breeds resentment. I don't expect the State to promote Christianity, that's up to Christians and the churches.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

The best way is through personal evangelism and the influence of individual Christians not through coercion. Coercion is bound to fail. I would rather see people enthusiastic and excited about the Gospel rather than people who don't believe it at all being dragged to church.

More people are likely to commit to a true living relationship with God in societies which offer full freedom of religion rather than those who coerce people to believe. Coercion breeds resentment. I don't expect the State to promote Christianity, that's up to Christians and the churches.

Then religious freedom is not about tolerance or any such values, but about converting more people to your religion

drkpower

philologos wrote: »

I don't expect the State to promote Christianity, that's up to Christians and the churches.

Why not? If you genuinely believe that the consequence of non-belief was eternal suffering, you would want the State, and every other entity, to encourage it, no?

Yet another demonstration of a combination of a lack of any real critical thought coupled with a forelorn yearning to be seen as tolerant when you are anything but.

philologos

dvpower wrote: »

Up to death. Then you support punishing the people who you say you support freedom from religion for, for an eternity in hell.

Well, we realise that something is true in the end.

Either I am in the ground and I am wormfood, or in the Christian point of view we have to give an account of our lives to God.

You are treating my beliefs as a horrible fiction. I'm dealing with them as a reality that has to be dealt with. If it is true that there is such a thing as hell, it's not going to be my decision as to whether or not it exists or indeed who goes there. That's what is. I'm emphasising that it is good news that we can come to know Christ, others wish to dwell on the what will happen if they reject Him as clearly accepting the Christ isn't an option?

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Then religious freedom is not about tolerance or any such values, but about converting more people to your religion

Christianity also is about showing grace to others including those with whom you disagree. Ultimately you hope that people will come to know Christ and make the right decision. But it is their decision, it's not something you can ram down peoples throats either.

philologos

drkpower wrote: »

Why not? If you genuinely believe that the consequence of non-belief was eternal suffering, you would want the State, and every other entity, to encourage it, no?

State aims conflated with Christianity can actually do much more harm to Christianity than good. Indeed, it encourages institutionalism. Christianity isn't about institutions it is about people and their God. Hence why it is much more effective to have people who actually love and care about Him serving Him in His world. There is little point in having people in the State who couldn't give a fiddlesticks about God promoting Christianity.

Asry

you're not getting it, drk. If you buy someone to pretend to be your wife and love you, and you lavish her with all the reassurances in the world - she's never going to love you, only pretend she does because you're making her.

The central point of the Ascent and Fall of Man is that Man has free will, and does what he wants out of free will, so at the end of the day, it's the individual who rejects God, not a nation or a caste or a college soc. You know?

But again, I really don't see why this matters so much to people. We believe when you die, you will be judged and your afterlife decided upon. You (and loads and loads of people) don't believe that. You just believe that when you die, you're dead and that's it. So why would you care what I think is going to happen in my head? I'm not freaking out because you disagree, and neither is Philo.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

Christianity also is about showing grace to others including those with whom you disagree. Ultimately you hope that people will come to know Christ and make the right decision. But it is their decision, it's not something you can ram down peoples throats either.

But if this grace caused less people to be saved you couldn't defend it

philologos

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

But if this grace caused less people to be saved you couldn't defend it

You determine your own salvation. Blaming God for judging you accordingly is a rather illogical approach.

dvpower

philologos wrote: »

You are treating my beliefs as a horrible fiction. I'm dealing with them as a reality that has to be dealt with. If it is true that there is such a thing as hell, it's not going to be my decision as to whether or not it exists or indeed who goes there. That's what is. I'm emphasising that it is good news that we can come to know Christ, others wish to dwell on the what will happen if they reject Him as clearly accepting the Christ isn't an option?

Its not your decision as to whether or not it exists or who goes there, but it is your decision to believe it to be just that non believers should go there.

You don't even have the courage to face your own disgusting belief, you just delegate this responsibility to God.

MagicMarker

Asry wrote: »

you're not getting it, drk. If you buy someone to pretend to be your wife and love you, and you lavish her with all the reassurances in the world - she's never going to love you, only pretend she does because you're making her.

The central point of the Ascent and Fall of Man is that Man has free will, and does what he wants out of free will, so at the end of the day, it's the individual who rejects God, not a nation or a caste or a college soc. You know?

But again, I really don't see why this matters so much to people. We believe when you die, you will be judged and your afterlife decided upon. You (and loads and loads of people) don't believe that. You just believe that when you die, you're dead and that's it. So why would you care what I think is going to happen in my head? I'm not freaking out because you disagree, and neither is Philo.

Nobody gives a shít about your personal beliefs, if only you'd keep them personal. But when you teach your absurd beliefs to children and stand in the way of equal rights, then I give a shít.

TheBlueHaze

I feel like writing a spontaneous poem, so here goes -

Untitled


Death is somewhat easy.

Unfortunately natural;

But that's cool with me, I can deal with that.

I remember for billions of years before I was born,

How peaceful I was, not a care in the world,

Complete silence. Nothingness.

It was easy. It was very, very easy.

-

And now, here I am, for a blink of an eye, suddenly in existence.

How fortunate.

-

That same silence, like before I was born,

most definitely awaits me in death,

True eternity in true peace.

Silent & peaceful nothingness.

All entirely natural.

All cool with me.

So alas I will live, my truly fortunate existence on earth,

To the absolute full,

Without any reservations.

Mere Human Being
Planet Earth
June 2011

Asry

MagicMarker wrote: »

Nobody gives a shít about your personal beliefs, if only you'd keep them personal. But when you teach your absurd beliefs to children and stand in the way of equal rights, then I give a shít.

But I'm not doing anything to children or anyone's rights. And they are my personal beliefs. I'm explaining to you what people are arguing against, not ramming my doctrine down your throats.

Just like I really couldn't give a flying fu** what people believe, so long as they don't try and make me believe it, too.

philologos

dvpower wrote: »

You don't even have the courage to face your own disgusting belief, you just delegate this responsibility to God.

I've faced them fully. I think hell is just, but that people can be saved through Jesus. I pray for the salvation of people around me and I hope that they come to know Him so that they mightn't go there.

That's the logical conclusion of my belief in hell.

AhSureTisGrand

philologos wrote: »

You determine your own salvation. Blaming God for judging you accordingly is a rather illogical approach.

I was saying that grace and tolerance would be immoral to you if they caused more people to go to Hell (assuming you do indeed care about them). The reason you are not more forceful is that such an approach doesn't work

Asry

TheBlueHaze wrote: »

I feel like writing a spontaneous poem, so here goes -

I liked that

strobe

philologos wrote: »

You determine your own salvation. Blaming God for judging you accordingly is a rather illogical approach.

Not blaming God for anything, that happens anywhere, at any time, in any way, is a rather illogical approach Philo.