GradMed; RCSI vs UCD - take II

pollypigwash

I'm currently trying to decide my CAO choices, I've fiddled it down to two RCSI and UCD but after that I am kind of stumped. I currently have RCSI down first as a legacy of the amazing open day I attended in November, but now I'm seriously considering changing my first preference to UCD having attended the open day yesterday. The Open day was nothing particularly special but it did show me that the programme is solid and I would be delighted to go there. There's also the vast difference in fee's to consider between the colleges, the campus environment and facilities, particularly sports facilities/teams to keep me sane through what is bound to be a challenging 4years. It’s hard to balance things up.

I can't decide on the basis of the programme's alone, I've studied the various posts/blogs on these and other forums/websites and found them incredibly informative particularly those of GradMed and Etymon but I am still stumped.

I've got a few question I was hoping current RCSI and UCD students might be able to answer (I apologise if they have already been answered my mind is awash with information and stressed with trying to make a decision, I should have asked these at the open days but didn’t get around to it.) These are in addition to the balances Yillan has tried to weigh up on the UCD gradmed thread which are also very forward in my mind.

Yillan wrote: »

Prestige of RCSI v UCD
Class size of 77 in UCD v 30 in RCSI
Fees of 16,440 in UCD v 13915 in UCD (Could do with a confirmation of these figures)
Campus of UCD v Hospital Setting of RCSI
Earlier hospital visits of RCSI v Later in UCD

I am keen to find out what kind of training in clinical skills do you receive, what form does this take particularly in your first year and how does it progress from there? I’ve seen pictures of various plastic technological wonders for practising suturing, inserting canulas, reviving patients etc but looking to see exactly what facilities are made available to students and what kind of access you have to them in both Uni’s and how soon into the programme (particularly time restraints if any in UCD given the large numbers due this year).

RCSI has an advantage for me with the laptop, I like the idea of all the resources/notes being together in the one format in one place, I am still suffering nightmares about what do with the mass of crap I have accumulated in notes from my first degree. But how do people manage in UCD, I’ve heard mentioned that notes are made available prior to lectures etc. What format are these in (ie is it standardized electronic or just a heap of printed powerpoint slides) also what system does the college use for distributing notes etc? We had blackboard back in the day in NUIG.
Another concern of mine this time for RCSI albeit minor is being in a Uni that is totally health science based (no escape from the drones) that said this will probably be irrelevant as we’ll have no time to interact with anyone else anyway plus who wants to talk to an old old wooden ship of a GEP student and anyway I’d imagine the class are pretty close as a group .

As I’ve mentioned fees are a particular concern, it seems that RCSI has increased by substantially more than the others this year with a total figure of €16,440 I am aware that the one off NUI fee and vaccinations fees are included but even still it seems to have increased much more than UCD. Has anyone information on the fees (and a breakdown) that were paid in the last few years? It should be helpful in determining what the future holds (a tent and a tin of beans at this rate!).

Finally there is the hospitals issues, my friend is currently a Surgical SHO in Beaumont and has recommended to me UCD on the basis of teaching hospitals She’s an NUIG graduate so no bias (Vincents and the Mater Vs Beaumont and Connolly) what are people’s experience in this regard? I’m sure they are all excellent hospitals but it would be nice to hear of your experience in both (patient contact access, no. of students attached to a team etc). Vincent’s was recommended on the basis of it being a huge general teaching hospital, this was also mentioned at the UCD open day by one of the grad students who also seemed to suggest Beaumont would be good if you were particularly interested in neuro etc but not otherwise I am aware this is a possibly biased opinion.

I’d ask more but I’m boring myself at this stage and I’m hoping to get a few answers so I don’t want to have ye reading a thesis and asking people to make my decisions for me (which would be nice).

Cheers,

Niall

oh yeah feel free to lob this in with the old RCSI vs UCD thread I just though it would be neater to start afresh as that one is perty old

spagboll

ask not what your medical school can do for you

rbrbrb

Dunno if Yillan was saying RCSI has more prestige than UCD because it certainly doesn't - not in Ireland anyway. UCD's teaching hospitals are far better than RCSI's without a shadow of a doubt, particularly the Mater.

rbrbrb

Also for what it's worth I'm in UCD and I love it. My friend went to RCSI and wishes he chose UCD

We use blackboard in UCD for getting notes. Compared to RCSI, UCD has a smaller workload and way more holidays (16 weeks for the summer after 1st year). RCSI's teaching and examinations also seem to be far more formal and officious according to my friend. You're also stuck out in dour Sandyford for most of your first year in RCSI.

pollypigwash

rbrbrb wrote: »

Dunno if Yillan was saying RCSI has more prestige than UCD because it certainly doesn't - not in Ireland anyway. UCD's teaching hospitals are far better than RCSI's without a shadow of a doubt, particularly the Mater.

It's a hard one to judge, while that may be the opinion in Ireland it's not necessarily the opinion abroad. And I would definitely be looking to work abroad at some stage. I know a guy who is a Consultant in Emergency medicine in Charing Cross Hospital and he said that RCSI's reputation is excellent in the UK and in the US where he worked for a number of years.
Reputation is a very minor thing though, we'll be judged on our own merit and achievements at the end of the day.

Thanks for the info re blackboard. I've done quite a bit of research over the weekend, and when you delve into the UCD website there realy is a wealth of information I didn't see at first.

Also the teaching hospital is a very important issue and I am being swayed by UCD's options particularly when you look at the investment in education being made in Vincents and the building work going on at the Mater.

The mock wards in UCD were pretty impressive too.

I think it could well be the extra curricular stuff that sways it for me in the end though, the two programmes themselves are excellent and I haven't heard a bad word about either (I wouldn't be worried by the nature of RCSI's exams) I'd be happy in either.

As of an hour ago I've switched my first choice to UCD, but that will probably flip flip over and back over the next 2 and a half weeks, gives me something to do to pass the time until I start. Can't wait.

Biologic

rbrbrb wrote: »

Also for what it's worth I'm in UCD and I love it. My friend went to RCSI and wishes he chose UCD

We use blackboard in UCD for getting notes. Compared to RCSI, UCD has a smaller workload and way more holidays (16 weeks for the summer after 1st year). RCSI's teaching and examinations also seem to be far more formal and officious according to my friend. You're also stuck out in dour Sandyford for most of your first year in RCSI.

For what it's worth, I'm in RCSI and I love it. I'm not going to start bad mouthing UCD, because I know little about the place, just like you know nothing about RCSI and "dour" Sandyford.
I liked Sandyford. It's a purpose built GEP facility with everything we need and more. When we started hospital rotations RCSI arranged transport from Sandyford to Beaumont. I really don't get why you're advertising UCD's smaller workload and double the holidays. I'm paying good money for education, the more I get the better. Why would you do medicine if you were looking for a course with a small workload? Another strength of RCSI worth mentioning is the early clinical contact. We're only finishing 1st year and we've already had exposure to most specialties, and are now on a 1 month placement on medical or surgical teams. Next year we're based entirely in Blanchardstown hospital. Other programmes don't have near this level of patient contact so early on in the programme.
I'm sure UCD does certain things better than RCSI, but I think RCSI is a more comprehensive (by your own admission) and varied course that throws you in the deep end clinically. Why do you need mock wards when RCSI puts you in real ones :P .

GradMed

Each college will have it's own strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter at all where we study.

rbrbrb

I've been out to sandyford and I found it quite dour. Everything else I said came from my friend. I value my free time while doing an intensive course like medicine, hence why I mentioned the difference in workload and holidays between the two schools. You're free to enjoy all the extra work if you want, we both end up with the same degree. I suspect most people would choose a smaller workload and longer holidays, all else being equal. I do agree that the early clinical exposure is a benefit of RCSI but since this is our last real long summer off of our lives, I'll take it.

sparrow3

It seems like over the last 2 to 3 weeks, conversation on Health Science Education Forum has gone from discussing likely entry requirements to picking holes in the different courses and insulting people.

REALITY IS THAT EACH COURSE HAS ITS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES. Whether someone prefers pbl or lecture based courses is their own decision but none of us have the right to take shots at other courses or claim one course is better than another - particularly for those who havent even been accepted into medical school yet ( mrs stuffings).

How you succeed in GEM is dependent on your ability/talents and the effort you put in - simple as

Sorry, rant over !

SpiderP

If I had to say one thing about studying in UCD it's that the craic is immense. People will harp on about having done all that and wanting to put the head down once they get in etc etc, fair duce but you'll not last very long without an outlet and in this regard UCD is brilliant. Brilliant sports facilities, loads of societies (if you're into that kind of thing) and great social life were big factors for me personally. Granted the student bar hasn't a patch on the pav, and bears more of a resemblance to a nuclear bunker that throws out sh*te pints than anything else, it does what it says on the tin. On top of this, the brand new health sciences building, very approachable staff (they really do listen to feedback and try to accommodate students suggestions to make things better - as I'm sure they do in other universities with new courses), well organised programme (having done an undergrad in Trinity, having all the notes etc centralised on blackboard is a dream), excellent teaching hospitals in Dublin city centre etc etc all help contribute...

I think this "prestige" craic needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Irish medical schools have excellent reputations abroad. I think plugging RCSI's international reputation at open days etc is a very shrewd marketing ploy on their part given their long history of educating international students, who in most cases are looking to return home to practise.

Either way, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter where you get your qualification. If you're lucky enough to have the entry requirements and get offered a place anywhere, well done.

AlmostStarted

Right, coming up on final call for course choice, so a few questions for those in the know. I have been fortunate to have the choice between RCSI and UCD, and while UCD is my first preference I have a few queries to help finalise my decision

1. Intership Placement / Ranking. For both courses I am curious what the method is for deciding GEP internship spots - are we in the same pool as the undergrads or is there 2 different streams

2. Total Class Size (UCD) - places going from 55 to 70 odd, but does that mean the total class is only increasing by the 15, or is there a greater allowance for international students also. And what are the total class sizes for both RCSI and UCD Sept 2011

3. Class Size : Cadaver ratio - any guesses what these will be for both courses

4. Summer placements. From either course what are the experiences of working in a clinical, research or other placement between 1st and 2nd, and 2nd and 3rd years.

5. Regional Hospital Experience. It appears that UCD students will spend the majority of their time in the Dublin area, with perhaps a few weeks away in more regional hospitals. For RCSI students it seems like you may be months located in regional hospitals. Thoughts on the relative benefits / shortcomings with these would be welcome

Cheers in advance

etymon

AlmostStarted wrote: »

Right, coming up on final call for course choice, so a few questions for those in the know. I have been fortunate to have the choice between RCSI and UCD, and while UCD is my first preference I have a few queries to help finalise my decision

1. Intership Placement / Ranking. For both courses I am curious what the method is for deciding GEP internship spots - are we in the same pool as the undergrads or is there 2 different streams

2. Total Class Size (UCD) - places going from 55 to 70 odd, but does that mean the total class is only increasing by the 15, or is there a greater allowance for international students also. And what are the total class sizes for both RCSI and UCD Sept 2011

3. Class Size : Cadaver ratio - any guesses what these will be for both courses

4. Summer placements. From either course what are the experiences of working in a clinical, research or other placement between 1st and 2nd, and 2nd and 3rd years.

5. Regional Hospital Experience. It appears that UCD students will spend the majority of their time in the Dublin area, with perhaps a few weeks away in more regional hospitals. For RCSI students it seems like you may be months located in regional hospitals. Thoughts on the relative benefits / shortcomings with these would be welcome

Cheers in advance

1. in same pool as undergrads, and we hear through the grapevine that GEPS get a slighter higher percentile on average which is a bonus

2. RCSI will be 30 Irish/EU places again and that can't increase unless Sandyford is extended which it cannot be if you were to see its surroundings

3. trust me- this does not matter - do NOT pick a course on this basis. The reality is you will spend most of your time trying to hide behind screens and gossip on examination couches, leaving more than enough cadaver space for the minority who actually want to pick bits of fat and tendon out of cadavers with tweezers so everyone is happy on that count. It's a tiny, tiny consideration in the grand scheme of things.

4. hospital placement in RCSI is great craic, most of the Drs will teach but some won't so it's up to you how involved you get. Of course if a grad course doesn't offer placements til 3rd year, you can arrange your own electives in the summer in hospitals in Ireland or abroad so fear not.

5. think RCSI students do 3 week blocks (maybe 4) and if you are going to Drogheda, Navan, Kilkenny etc you get put up in a B&B for that time, people go home at weekends of course and you can pick your 'travel buddy' to be your partner in crime for away rotations. you will go back and forth to dublin depending on your rotation.

spagboll

Your junior doctor years aren't going to be amenable to this level of adjudication and your success in Ireland will be almost solely dependent on a gritty determination to hack some of the worst hospital working conditions in the developed world, not which school you go to.



For your intern year you will hope to get into a hospital that is strong in your area of interest, for example Emergency and CUH/Vincents, Beamount and transplant, Mater and cardiology. Getting your spot is down to your final per centile ranking in your class, again which school doesn't come into it.