Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Healthcare: An Entitlement or a Privilege? - Discuss

Options
245

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    I think a good example of true competition in this area is something like laser eye surgery. No insurance company would pay for it, so since it was coming out of the consumer's own pocket there was true competition.?

    Could be totally wrong about this but I was always under the impression that Laser eye surgery was developed in the USSR :confused:
    drkpower wrote: »
    Can you clarify what you mean then?
    I maintain that fertility treatment should not be funded out of the healthcare budget to the detriment of other healthcare services (or public services in general) as would be the case in just about any country with a national budget of less than infinity.


  • Options
    #33
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    I maintain that fertility treatment should not be funded out of the healthcare budget to the detriment of other healthcare services (or public services in general) as would be the case in just about any country with a national budget of less than infinity.
    I know you maintain that position; but I was asking what the basis for that position, beyond the mere fact that you believe it.


  • Options
    #34
    Chinasea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    If you are low paid worker it is neither an entitlement nor a privilege - on a salary of €17-€30 per year you really need to scrimp the outrageous fee of €60.00 to visit your GP. On the other hand, if you don't work then you get a medical card so it is free and all your medicines to boot (.50c). Seems a tad unfair to me.


  • Options
    #35
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    drkpower wrote: »
    but I was asking what the basis for that position

    There's a bit of a clue in the last line or two of my previous post if you care to read it again.


  • Options
    #36
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    There's a bit of a clue in the last line or two of my previous post if you care to read it again.
    The reason you give seems to be limited to the fact that you believe that making fertility treatment an entitlement would be to the detriment of other healthcare services.

    However, what I have been asking is why you consider 'other healthcare services' to be an entitlement/free and why fertility treatment is not an entitlement/free. Initially you appeared to suggest that the life-saving nature of treatment was what made it an entitlement, but you seem to have resiled from that position.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    drkpower wrote: »
    However, what I have been asking is why you consider 'other healthcare services' to be an entitlement/free and why fertility treatment is not an entitlement/free. .

    Because I view the delivery of healthcare services (lifesaving or otherwise) to those who need them to be a greater priority than enabling people to procreate.


  • Options
    #38
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Chinasea wrote: »
    If you are low paid worker it is neither an entitlement nor a privilege - on a salary of €17-€30 per year you really need to scrimp the outrageous fee of €60.00 to visit your GP. On the other hand, if you don't work then you get a medical card so it is free and all your medicines to boot (.50c). Seems a tad unfair to me.

    Healthcare should be free at the point of service. You should not have to hand over cash to a GP before they will diagnose what is wrong with you. Tax something else to pay for it if needed, but there should not be anything that discourages people from getting seen early by a GP to diagnose problems.

    Get diagnosed sooner and it will save money. Charge people €60 to see a GP and they will put off seeing them until the situation gets worse and then end up costing more to fix what ever the issue was in the first place.


  • Options
    #39
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Because I view the delivery of healthcare services (lifesaving or otherwise) to those who need them to be a greater priority than enabling people to procreate.
    I know that; but why?!?! That is the question I have been asking.

    Does your position apply to all healthcare services or only specific healthcare services?
    And what are the factors that lead you to believe these services should be an entitlement/free and do those factors apply to infertility treatment.


  • Options
    #40
    Chinasea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    robinph wrote: »
    Healthcare should be free at the point of service. You should not have to hand over cash to a GP before they will diagnose what is wrong with you. Tax something else to pay for it if needed, but there should not be anything that discourages people from getting seen early by a GP to diagnose problems.

    Get diagnosed sooner and it will save money. Charge people €60 to see a GP and they will put off seeing them until the situation gets worse and then end up costing more to fix what ever the issue was in the first place.

    Totally agree, but the GP's have us over a barrel - we still seem to treat them like some sort of super elite despite this fact. ( *not wishing to take away from the obvious good they do) but none the less this rip off two minutes visit of €60 plus is a flippin outrage and immoral in my book – as for the demi gods with the dickie bow the consultants......


  • Options
    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If a Human Right is an entitlement then yeah, entitlement.

    I'd actually go to war for this.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Could be totally wrong about this but I was always under the impression that Laser eye surgery was developed in the USSR :confused:

    Yes you're right, but that still doesn't mean that most recent medical innovation hasn't come out of the US.

    And LASIK got cheaper in the US first. I don't think a lot of people in the USSR ever benefited from the procedure.


  • Options
    #43
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    stovelid wrote: »
    Sure you would.
    i would, and i do

    *edit, ill just throw this in here, save making a new post
    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    Judging by that post, I think it's obvious you're still on your provisional license.
    he didnt say the OP is off topic, he said
    the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic
    and anyway, i've seen instances of the poster of a thread post a story, give an opinion, ask for comments, and later in the thread be over-ruled when he says some comments are good, the kind of thing he was looking for, and a mod rules them as off-topic,

    ive seen it happen...


  • Options
    #44
    caroline1111
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭caroline1111


    If its free for anyone it should be free for ALL, not the current ridiculous situation where someone on the dole gets as many GP visits and free medication as they want whereas eg their next-door neighbour works hard and has to skimp about to fork up the money to pay for their own care and even puts it off. Its kinda sick when you think about it, working taxpayers are funding healthcare for people on the dole but then mightn't be able to afford to pay for themselves. Needs to be sorted out.


  • Options
    #45
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    drkpower wrote: »
    Does your position apply to all healthcare services or only specific healthcare services?.
    Most Healthcare services
    drkpower wrote: »
    And what are the factors that lead you to believe these services should be an entitlement/free and do those factors apply to infertility treatment.

    In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.


  • Options
    #46
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Most Healthcare services.
    That is so broad as to be essentially useless. Can you be more specific.
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.
    Sure, but once again, you havent said why healthcare treatment is (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege!


  • Options
    #47
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,094 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    ^ I guess procreation is a requirement for governments though as they need to ensure their future supply of taxpayers. Well, not the government, but the civil service who actually run a country anyway and don't get changed every couple of years.


  • Options
    #48
    Kevin Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Most Healthcare services



    In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.

    And how would one qualify for the "privilege" of procreation, or by what criteria would you restrict it?


  • Options
    #49
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    entitlement

    1. The fact of having a right to something.
    2. The amount to which a person has a right.

    privilege

    Verb: Grant a privilege or privileges to: "English inheritance law privileged the eldest son".
    Noun: A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to one person or group of people
    _______________________________________

    They kinda mean the same thing OP.

    I think you might mean an entitlemet or a luxury?


  • Options
    #50
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same? **** 'em if they can't earn a priviledge or contribute to society?

    Who do you think should pay?


  • Options
    #51
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Kevin Duffy wrote: »
    And how would one qualify for the "privilege" of procreation, or by what criteria would you restrict it?

    I didnt say I would restrict people from obtaining fertility treatment privately if they could afford to pay.
    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Who do you think should pay?
    The Exchequer of any country purporting to be civilised


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Kevin Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    I didnt say I would restrict people from obtaining fertility treatment privately if they could afford to pay.

    I know you didn't, what you said was that you view "procreation as a privilege". I'm examining the logic of your statement and the above is not an answer to my question.


  • Options
    #53
    Gigabytes
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Gigabytes


    Kevin Duffy wrote: »
    I know you didn't, what you said was that you view "procreation as a privilege". I'm examining the logic of your statement and the above is not an answer to my question.

    Fertility treatment isn't beneficial to either parties health, it is a privilege to bear a child, it is also a basic human right, which government or society shouldn't interfere with.
    If you can afford it you should pay for it


  • Options
    #54
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,383 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Sandwlch wrote: »
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same?

    Yes, the same. But the humanity in most of us means we choose to help them and have a society that does provide healthcare to those who cannot do so for themselves - even though they have no entitlement to it.

    Seriously? You would rather sit back and watch children suffer than help out? Obviously, the humanity in some of us is sorely lacking.
    There is no entitlement to be born equal, nor to to then have that inequality equalised.

    This does not make sense.
    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Who do you think should pay?

    Taxpayer. I would happily pay more tax for an equal and more efficient health service. Judging by the poll, so would others.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Options
    #55
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    People already buy health insurance- it used be called PRSI, now it's incorporated in the Universal Social Charge. If one pays for it, then one should be entitled to access it.


  • Options
    #56
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »


    Taxpayer. I would happily pay more tax for an equal and more efficient health service. Judging by the poll, so would others.

    Are you loopers?? The problem isn't lack of money- it's lack of efficiency and accountability in spending that money. If we trebled the amount we spend on health, we won't get much more a return unless there's fundamental reform.


  • Options
    #57
    Fluorescence
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    robinph wrote: »
    Healthcare should be free at the point of service. You should not have to hand over cash to a GP before they will diagnose what is wrong with you. Tax something else to pay for it if needed, but there should not be anything that discourages people from getting seen early by a GP to diagnose problems.

    Get diagnosed sooner and it will save money. Charge people €60 to see a GP and they will put off seeing them until the situation gets worse and then end up costing more to fix what ever the issue was in the first place.

    Absolutely agree. UCD have a system where you have a healthcare account, where you go see the GP or whatever, get sorted, and pay online later. No reason why such a thing couldn't be implemented nationwide.


  • Options
    #58
    Kevin Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Gigabytes wrote: »
    Fertility treatment isn't beneficial to either parties health, it is a privilege to bear a child, it is also a basic human right, which government or society shouldn't interfere with.
    If you can afford it you should pay for it

    Really? Permit me to strongly disgaree that the ability to reproduce isn't a benefit to health. Finding you can't must be a hugely damaging thing to your psychological health if you want to do it. I'd also disagree that it would be ruled out of being publicly funded, that's a value judgment I would think it's very dangerous to make.


  • Options
    #59
    Gigabytes
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Gigabytes


    Kevin Duffy wrote: »
    Really? Permit me to strongly disgaree that the ability to reproduce isn't a benefit to health. Finding you can't must be a hugely damaging thing to your psychological health if you want to do it. I'd also disagree that it would be ruled out of being publicly funded, that's a value judgment I would think it's very dangerous to make.

    Well as a person who is going through fertility treatment right now at this minute, if it doesn't work out, i will not drop dead in a few days/weeks/months time as a result of it.
    Depression may set in, but that is were the healthcare system should come in and do what it does.


  • Options
    #60
    Louise_M1990
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Louise_M1990


    Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »
    I believe its one of the most basic human rights.

    Agree 100% percent.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,383 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Einhard wrote: »
    Are you loopers?? The problem isn't lack of money- it's lack of efficiency and accountability in spending that money. If we trebled the amount we spend on health, we won't get much more a return unless there's fundamental reform.

    Oh, I completely agree that it needs reform - I did say "more efficient health service".

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



Advertisement