Limerick-Foynes Rail Line

ClovenHoof

falconio wrote: »

Hopefully the regional cities won't end up like Dublin.

That's only because Dublin is run by Regional Politicians.

falconio

McAlban wrote: »

Issue Being Both lines would need to be upgraded for safe speedy running.

With Rathkeale being disused and the Ennis / Roscrea lines very lightly used and possibly targets for closure in the near future you could just go ahead an convert them to light rail (making the necessary diversion through UL per your map)? 

I guess Limerick to Tipp will need to be retained for the intercity service to Dublin so perhaps one of the other lines could run to Shannon airport instead e.g. Roscrea-Shannon  & Rathkeale-Ennis. Ideally it would be nice to be able to mix light rail and other rail in these corridors for maximum flexibility but I don't know if that's viable seeing as we went with the european standard for Luas, must have been good reasons for that.

You could do an on-street city center section like in Dublin but if a short cut-and-cover was viable that would be infinitely better. On-street through the city-center should be a last resort, way too slow for commuters and very disruptive to install.

Thinking about it Limerick has very good potential as a city. Good university, airport, regional transport links, ports. North Kerry and Clare on it's doorstep for recreation. 

If the political will was there to install a quality public transport system upon which to grow the city it would make it a very attractive place to live and work and a fantastic alternative to Dublin - Ireland badly needs that now. 

Dublin is all our social policy failings manifest and it's very hard to see how it can ever be righted and certainly not without enormous financial outlay which we simply do not possess.

Better to start fresh in Cork, Limerick or Galway where whatever small money we have to spend on infrastructure will go much, much further.

bk

falconio wrote: »

Better to start fresh in Cork, Limerick or Galway where whatever small money we have to spend on infrastructure will go much, much further.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true at all.

Cork can barely sustain even a basic city bus service, never mind anything fancier. The vast majority of people in Cork just drive and I suspect it is the same in Galway and Limerick.

Unlike all the other cities, the majority of people in Dublin actually take public transport/walk/cycle rather then drive. In fact only 20% of people working in Dublin City get there by car, Cork etc. it is the other way around.

Dublin is the one city in Ireland that actually has the high population density to support high quality public transport.

marno21

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that isn't true at all.

Cork can barely sustain even a basic city bus service, never mind anything fancier. The vast majority of people in Cork just drive and I suspect it is the same in Galway and Limerick.

Unlike all the other cities, the majority of people in Dublin actually take public transport/walk/cycle rather then drive. In fact only 20% of people working in Dublin City get there by car, Cork etc. it is the other way around.

Dublin is the one city in Ireland that actually has the high population density to support high quality public transport.

I'm sorry but most people don't use Cork's buses because they are absolutely ****e.

Limerick's are even worse. I live and work at opposite ends of Limerick city and can commute via the M7/M20 in around 20 minutes. If I were to be guaranteed to be at work for 9am I have to get a bus at 8am, tripling my commute time.

When it's faster to cycle an 11km commute than use public transport then there is something major wrong.

falconio

Reading my post back it seems like I'm having a pop at Dublin, that was certainly not my intention. 
If anything I think investing in infrastructure in regional cities will help ameliorate Dublin's current traffic and housing problems greatly as many people and businesses will gladly relocate elsewhere if they feel it's viable or their standard of living will improve.

I was struck by the potential of Limerick from the original posters ideas. It seems a relatively small investment (say the cost of luas cross-city) in connecting and repurposing currently lightly used railway lines could give the city a fantastic north-south, east-west public transport spine. A lot of the other essential infrastructure that businesses and citizens require is already in place as I mentioned in my previous post. 

If some heat can be taken out of the (again) out of control property market in Dublin, it will make it a lot easier to (a) manage and enforce sustainable new developments and (b) fix some of the legacy mess from previous property booms. 

One way to do that is by investing in another city that although smaller in scale than Dublin is better to live in.

Fixing Dublin's transport problems is going to take a lot of money (do we have it?)  and it may not be possible at all unless politicians step up and start managing the city's development properly. 

If it is possible realistically how long will it take - 10 years? 20? A platform for change is now 17 years old.

Do we have to wait that long? Why not consider alternatives in the meantime especially if they are much, much simpler to deliver.

bk

marno21 wrote: »

I'm sorry but most people don't use Cork's buses because they are absolutely ****e.

As a Corkonian, I know perfectly well.

The point is, it is chicken and egg. People drive because the buses suck, the buses suck because so few people use it. Plus the reality is the Cork/Limerick etc. are pretty small cities which have nowhere near the same congestion problems of Dublin and it is still ok to get around by car.

My point is you need to fix the bus services in Cork/Limerick before even thinking about more serious infrastructure projects (M20 aside).

falconio wrote: »

Reading my post back it seems like I'm having a pop at Dublin, that was certainly not my intention. 
If anything I think investing in infrastructure in regional cities will help ameliorate Dublin's current traffic and housing problems greatly as many people and businesses will gladly relocate elsewhere if they feel it's viable or their standard of living will improve.

I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. The only thing that will fix Dublins problems is building the infrastructure Dublin needs. Namely Metro North and DART Underground.

Don't kid yourself, big business has ZERO interest in relocating out of Dublin! Load of nonsense. The big IT and financial companies aren't thinking should I open a new office in Dublin or Cork/Limerick/etc. No they are thinking should I open in Dublin or Frankfurt/Lisbon/Zurich/etc.

The regional Irish cities are just way too small for these big companies. Dublin is just barely big enough for them, but it really needs to fix it's infrastructure if it wants to continue to grow.

We really need to get over our anti-urban, anti-Dublin, rural mindset. The reality is Ireland is urbanising, much like every other European country did over the last 50 years and there is nothing that will stop it.

Also it is totally normal for most European countries to have one big city that gets most of the investment (the Londons, Paris, Copenhagens), it concentrates resources in a manner that attracts big investment and employs lots of people that helps finance the whole country.

The regional cities have to find their own different niche (e.g. Cork and Pharma), so that they can thrive in their own manner.

falconio

"The only thing that will fix Dublins problems is building the infrastructure Dublin needs. Namely Metro North and DART Underground."


I'm skeptical. 

Dublin underground will connect the existing rail network in a more topologically succinct way yes, but without addressing any of the legacy issues that make Dublin's existing railway infrastructure substandard. 

A metro line from the city centre to the airport while welcome will benefit a small catchment. These projects will be enormously expensive and take a long time. In the meantime politicians will be pressurized to allow Dublin to sprawl and property prices to rocket.

I can't see a happy outcome for most people except those who stand to benefit from rising land prices.

"We really need to get over our anti-urban, anti-Dublin, rural mindset"

What has this to do with investing in Limerick as a growth city, i.e. an urban area? 

I'm pro-Dublin but I believe it would be better place to live if it was smaller (in footprint) and better planned frankly. I don't believe a bigger population will benefit the citizens who have to live there.

"The regional Irish cities are just way too small for these big companies."

This seems a little old-fashioned ideology to me, in your own words it dates from 50 years ago. 

Take tech which is my profession. Silicon Valley is now struggling to attract talent because of the cost and sub-standard public services in the Bay area. Companies are relocating to smaller american cities where the quality of life and bang for buck is better, companies are running remote teams. I expect this trend to continue as the "one big city" in each region become less and less affordable.

You also say "The regional cities have to find their own different niche (e.g. Cork and Pharma)". This seems like a non-sequitur, do Apple and big pharma not qualify as big companies? Why are they in Cork and not in Dublin. Why is uber in Limerick?

I don't want to labour the point further (this was meant to be about Limerick / Foynes, perhaps we could continue on another thread?) but "the one big city" plan is a dead end for the majority of people who are unfortunate enough to end up living there. Most progressive countries have other cities and they invest in them. 

Peoples working and living patterns are changing and employers are becoming more flexible about how, when and where people work. 

I don't share in this blind hope, that allowing Dublin to grow indefinitely a la London will either make it a better place to live in or be a benefit to the country in the long run.

bk

falconio wrote: »

A metro line from the city centre to the airport while welcome will benefit a small catchment.

The fact that you just said that shows that you have no idea what you are talking about!

The main point of Metro North is not to go to the Airport, that is just the bonus, the cherry on top.

No, the main point of MN is to go to Swords.

You know, Swords, the fifth most populated urban area in Ireland. 68,000. Yet it is the only urban area in the top 20 in Ireland, without rail!

The point of Metro North is to open up all the available land to the North of Dublin. The population of Swords is planned to grow to 100,000 once MN is built. Hell it might even surpass Limerick Cities population!

Add to that the fact that Metro North will also pass through North city Dublin, which is the most densly populated part of Ireland and also has no rail!

The airport, Croke Park, DCU, etc. are all just bonuses. Great ones, but really not the reason for Metro North.

falconio wrote: »

I'm pro-Dublin but I believe it would be better place to live if it was smaller (in footprint) and better planned frankly. I don't believe a bigger population will benefit the citizens who have to live there.

Again, you lack of knowledge of Dublin is showing. Dublin is the most densely populated area of Ireland. In fact it is vastly higher then anywhere else (3,498 for Dublin City, 1,206 for Cork, 1,609 for Limerick, 3,616 for Swords). It's population density is actually roughly the same as Amsterdam and Copenhagen, similar medium sized European cities.

Dublin just needs proper rail based transport like these similar cities to make best use of it's already existing population density to continue to grow.

As was pointed out in another thread, the entire population of Ireland would fit in Berlins Metropolitan area, which is roughly the same size as Dublin. The point being Dublin can easily handle much greater population density, as long as we build the right infrastructure to support it.

falconio wrote: »

Take tech which is my profession. Silicon Valley is now struggling to attract talent because of the cost and sub-standard public services in the Bay area. Companies are relocating to smaller american cities where the quality of life and bang for buck is better, companies are running remote teams. I expect this trend to continue as the "one big city" in each region become less and less affordable.

I work in tech too. Big US IT companies have little interest in moving to small cities, outside of some outsourced foreign language support, they simply too small to attract the talent.

There is a reason why Google bought a new office in Manhattan that is literally the size of an entire city block at the cost of $2 billion! They want to attract the best and the brightest talent and typically those people want to live in big exciting cities. Specially fresh out of college.

You are right that the bay area is having big problems. Ironically the problems are very similar to those being faced by Dublin on a smaller scale.

Strict city planning in SF doesn't allow tall apartment buildings to be built in the city, meaning it is a relatively low level city similar to Dublin, but that leads to spiralling increases in the cost of living due to high demand. Also lacks of good public transport in the greater Bay Area. Basically the same story as in Dublin.

falconio wrote: »

You also say "The regional cities have to find their own different niche (e.g. Cork and Pharma)". This seems like a non-sequitur, do Apple and big pharma not qualify as big companies? Why are they in Cork and not in Dublin. Why is uber in Limerick?

Apple is in Cork, because they were there from the 70's. Back then they were an incredibly small company and Cork was their first factory outside of the US. It was seen as a cheap manufacturing location back then, similar to China today.

Of course things have radically changed since then. Apple grew into the richest company in the world. Ireland is no longer the cheapest place to manufacture things and much of Apples manufacturing has stopped in Cork. However luckily, Apples management in Cork was strong and they were able to pivot away from manufacturing and go into administrative support, tech support, etc. instead and grow. Fair play to them great job.

But don't kid yourself. If Apple hadn't had this long history in Cork, it would have most likely set up in Dublin just like Google, Facebook, etc.

Just look at Dell in Limerick.

Big pharma of course are also big companies. But that is a good example of Cork finding it's own niche away from Dublin's strength in IT and financial services. Good on them for developing that and it is exactly this type of development that Cork/Limerick/etc. need to be focusing on.

BTW Uber employs just 150 in Limerick. That is nothing compared to the big companies in Dublin and it is mostly only the usual low level customer support roles. Plus Uber is still really just a medium sized IT company.

Again, this is exactly what I'm saying. Cork/Limerick need to find their own niche away from Dublin, targeting more medium sized companies like Uber, EMC, VMware, etc.

Dublin also needs to be left to continue to develop and target the really biggest companies with the biggest offices, the Googles, Facebooks, Bank of Americas, etc.

falconio wrote: »

I don't want to labour the point further (this was meant to be about Limerick / Foynes, perhaps we could continue on another thread?) but "the one big city" plan is a dead end for the majority of people who are unfortunate enough to end up living there. Most progressive countries have other cities and they invest in them. 

Peoples working and living patterns are changing and employers are becoming more flexible about how, when and where people work. 

First of all, Dublin really isn't a big city! It is a medium sized European city, the same size as Amsterdam and Copenhagen, with still loads of room to grow.

I'm sorry, but you clearly haven't looked into the stats of this and the trends. I have. The trends are very clear. Around the world, the biggest cities are becoming bigger and they are growing at a rate much higher then small cities. And the world in general is urbanising.

And we are seeing the same trends here. Ireland is becoming increasingly urban and the biggest population increases is happening in the GDA, you can see here for yourself:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pd/

44% of the total Irish urban population lives in Dublin. Next highest is Cork at just 11%

Some South Dublin towns so a 42% population increase between the 2011 and the 2016 census alone!

bk

BTW I'm not at all saying that we shouldn't be investing in Cork/Limerick/etc. too.

We absolutely should be, which is why I really want to see the M20 be built and the new Cork Docklands project and supporting public transport built.

However what pisses me off, is this idea that Dublin is too big and that it shouldn't get further development!

It is clear BS. Dublin is in no way too big. It is only a medium sized European city and we really need to be heavily investing in Dublin to properly compete for the top jobs against the Frankfurts, Lisbons and Zurichs of the world and to take the maximum economic advantage of Brexit.

McAlban

I've lived and worked all my life near Swords. It is a regional town for rural Fingal, which is under developed. It needs Metro North! It needed it 20 years ago when I was doing My Leaving Cert.

The mock up I did earlier in the thread was showing how proper planning and investment in Limerick PT could give them quite a good infrastructure and open up some nearby towns for commuting. I'm not sure how many would commute on the Foynes line as is, but having a commuter service like that, integrated with a Light rail crossing the city connecting business parks, and educational institutes could benefit the city greatly and IMO should have planning put in place to reserve the permanent way for future use.

falconio

Apologies McAlban I've taken this totally off topic now. Anyway I really like the Limerick idea!
BK we could debate this on another thread if you want my response to your last post would have zero to do with Limerick / Foynes in fairness, or we could just agree to disagree.

Paddico

McAlban wrote: »

After what Trellheim Said: Over the weekend I thought a bit about this and decided to get the crayons out... Discuss...

Looks great but not feasable and will not happen in 30 years.
Bigger chance of getting a man to mars

Middle Man

Paddico wrote: »

Looks great but not feasable and will not happen in 30 years.
Bigger chance of getting a man to mars

Well not in a country like Ireland TBH - Irish people seem too small minded to undertake anything of ambition like the concept above!

pigtown

Middle Man wrote: »

Well not in a country like Ireland TBH - Irish people seem too small minded to undertake anything of ambition like the concept above!

The thing is though you can't just build a comprehensive network like this and expect it to be successful. In order for it to in some way pay for itself it must have enough potential passengers at each stop and on each line. This takes decades of coordinated planning to grow densities within walkable distances at each location. It means not permitting mazes of semi-ds all over the suburbs, nor sprawling business parks.

This hasn't happened in Limerick unfortunately and by the looks of it it's not going to happen any time soon.

Middle Man

pigtown wrote: »

The thing is though you can't just build a comprehensive network like this and expect it to be successful. In order for it to in some way pay for itself it must have enough potential passengers at each stop and on each line. This takes decades of coordinated planning to grow densities within walkable distances at each location. It means not permitting mazes of semi-ds all over the suburbs, nor sprawling business parks.

This hasn't happened in Limerick unfortunately and by the looks of it it's not going to happen any time soon.

Well, we can always start with the planning aspect with the aim of building potential demand in the towns along the rail routes. There's no real reason why we can't plan expanded towns with decent ring roads and have the essential public facilities within walking distance for the majority of residents therein.

pigtown

Middle Man wrote: »

Well, we can always start with the planning aspect with the aim of building potential demand in the towns along the rail routes. There's no real reason why we can't plan expanded towns with decent ring roads and have the essential public facilities within walking distance for the majority of residents therein.

Oh I totally agree. My point is that any fixed-rail public transport system takes an awful lot of preparation before construction is even considered. Councillors calling for light rail would first want to look at their planning policies.

pigtown

Irish Rail are seeking permission to replace a three-arch bridge at Churchfield with a new single span structure in order to cater for the potential future re-introduction of freight traffic on the line.

Treepole

pigtown wrote: »

Irish Rail are seeking permission to replace a three-arch bridge at Churchfield with a new single span structure in order to cater for the potential future re-introduction of freight traffic on the line.

Where is Churchfield?

marno21

Treepole wrote: »

Where is Churchfield?

The Robertstown viaduct near Foynes?

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

The Robertstown viaduct near Foynes?

I don't know, I just saw a notice in the Limerick Post.

Treepole

marno21 wrote: »

The Robertstown viaduct near Foynes?

I wouldn't call that three-arch, but then again I wouldn't be that au-fait with bridge construction lingo.

flyingsnail

pigtown wrote: »

I don't know, I just saw a notice in the Limerick Post.

What page is that on ?

pigtown

flyingsnail wrote: »

What page is that on ?

Near the back

Mango Joe

Hi All,

Just curious to get an overview of this as it stands right now. I've read through the thread but given the length of time its run for there's been a lot of speculation as people tried to guess how things might pan out etc. So just wondering what the likely situation is now after the passage of time?

As of now is IEs application to carry out this work on the bridge a good indicator something may happen?

Is this service likely to carry commuters, freight or both?

At a guess when might trains actually run? Would it be in 5-10 years time etc?

I may have missed it but could someone post a link to the likely route with stations marked on it?

Thanks!

L1011

Freight, it's an existing but unmaintained route and there won't be any intermediate stations.

Treepole

Mango Joe wrote: »

Hi All,

Just curious to get an overview of this as it stands right now. I've read through the thread but given the length of time its run for there's been a lot of speculation as people tried to guess how things might pan out etc. So just wondering what the likely situation is now after the passage of time?

As of now is IEs application to carry out this work on the bridge a good indicator something may happen?

Is this service likely to carry commuters, freight or both?

At a guess when might trains actually run? Would it be in 5-10 years time etc?

I may have missed it but could someone post a link to the likely route with stations marked on it?

Thanks!

If you look at Foynes on Google Maps you can follow the route from there. It's a bit circuitous but it's actually close enough to the route that the new M20 Spur to Foynes will eventually take.

Fsxlover2

Mango Joe wrote: »

Hi All,

Just curious to get an overview of this as it stands right now. I've read through the thread but given the length of time its run for there's been a lot of speculation as people tried to guess how things might pan out etc. So just wondering what the likely situation is now after the passage of time?

As of now is IEs application to carry out this work on the bridge a good indicator something may happen?

Is this service likely to carry commuters, freight or both?

At a guess when might trains actually run? Would it be in 5-10 years time etc?

I may have missed it but could someone post a link to the likely route with stations marked on it?

Thanks!

1. Well no trains can run if the old bridge remains, so i assume its one step further to reopening the line.

2.Its going to be freight.

3.Depends, you could have inspection cars and weed sprayers on the line soon enough but normal freight trains might be in a while (if ever).

4. Google: Foynes railway map

Oscar1978

Any work done on Robertstown viaduct or any work in general?

Pete2k

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/reopening-limerick-foynes-rail-freight-line-makes-sense-says-minister-1.4369536

I would imagine this involves relaying the entire line and bringing it up to suitable level for passenger traffic at least as far as Adare given the recent comments from the minister. Relaying the castlemungret adjacent line as far as the turnoff and using it as a double track as far as here would also help.

Cookiemunster

Quote from the article.

The move would cut truck journeys between the city and port by 800 a year

That's 2.2 trucks a day, or 3 trucks a day if you only count Monday to Friday. That's not even a dent in the truck numbers. Would it even lead to one full train a week?

Surely you need a much stronger business case than that to spend €45m to open a line for 1-2 trains a week.

Pete2k wrote: »

I would imagine this involves relaying the entire line and bringing it up to suitable level for passenger traffic at least as far as Adare given the recent comments from the minister. Relaying the castlemungret adjacent line as far as the turnoff and using it as a double track as far as here would also help.

A passenger line would need the reinstatement of the bridge across Careys Road (which was removed 50 years ago with the alignment built on) to allow access to Colbert Station. That would be very very expensive and would most definitely not be covered by the mooted €45m.