'SECURE' underground carpark...

StrandRoad_old

Hi all,

I can't believe this has happened...

Has anyone had any dealings with Smith Property Management (SPM) http://www.spm.ie/ This is the management company that manages the apartment that I live in.

Long story short, on Friday, there was someone repairing the security gates to the "secure" underground carpark of our block and they left the gates open all night. When we went down to the carpark yesterday our car was gone. It was recovered today by the Gardai as it had been stolen. Does anyone know what rights we would have here, since the management company seem to be totally incompetent and are pretty useless at returning our calls all weekend. We only knew for definite that the car was stolen when the gardai found it as the property management company would not give us a straight answer as to where it could have gone!! I found it hard to believe that the car could be stolen from a 'secure' gated, underground carpark but then again they never told us the security gates were open all night on Friday, we only found that out today...

Paulw

From the sounds of it, your only claim is on your car insurance.

Sounds like the gates were in need of repair (for whatever reason), and that the job could not be completed in one go (not unusual). So, it was necessary to leave the gates open.

The other option for them would have been to lock the gates all weekend, and trap all cars inside, which would have annoyed a lot more people than leaving the gates open.

So, from all that, sounds like the management agent (not management company) Smith Property Management, have no liability.

connundrum

Not being sarcastic, but seriously.. you have no idea how a car could have been stolen from an underground car park?

All it would take would be for 1 or more thieves to tail a car in on foot, break into your car and then tail a car out. If they were clever they would have covered the sensors on the way in so that the gate didn't close automatically.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, but there is no such thing as 'secure' parking. If SPM were any good they would have given you a straight answer, but you park there at your own risk.. in the same way that you park in any shopping centre/hospital. They should have signs up around the car park informing you of this.

StrandRoad_old

Paulw wrote: »

From the sounds of it, your only claim is on your car insurance.

Sounds like the gates were in need of repair (for whatever reason), and that the job could not be completed in one go (not unusual). So, it was necessary to leave the gates open.

The other option for them would have been to lock the gates all weekend, and trap all cars inside, which would have annoyed a lot more people than leaving the gates open.

So, from all that, sounds like the management agent (not management company) Smith Property Management, have no liability.

Hi Paulw, thanks for the reply. I'm going to attempt to speak with the management company again tomorrow and see what they say.

Either way, as soon as they knew that the gates could not be fixed in one go, the residents of the block should have been informed that the gates were going to be open all night. Whatever way you look at the situation, an open gate is much easier to go through than a closed one and they increased the likelihood of theft and damage by leaving the gates open to all. Surely additional security measures should have been considered, since they compromised the security of the building as a whole as access may be gained to the whole block from the car park!! I appreciate that residents would have been annoyed if the gates were locked and they couldn't get out, but surely the residents should have been informed of this potential breach of security.

StrandRoad_old

connundrum wrote: »

Not being sarcastic, but seriously.. you have no idea how a car could have been stolen from an underground car park?

All it would take would be for 1 or more thieves to tail a car in on foot, break into your car and then tail a car out. If they were clever they would have covered the sensors on the way in so that the gate didn't close automatically.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, but there is no such thing as 'secure' parking. If SPM were any good they would have given you a straight answer, but you park there at your own risk.. in the same way that you park in any shopping centre/hospital. They should have signs up around the car park informing you of this.

Hi connundrum, thanks for your reply. However, I think you may have missed the point of my post. Of course I understand how a car may be stolen from a gated underground carpark...My point is that I am amazed that the management company are allowed to just leave the building open to such a security risk! The point of the matter is, as i mentioned above, an open gate is much easier to get in and out that one that is locked. Of course a locked gate goes not offer any guarentees, however what is necessary in all thefts is opportunity. And the management company put that on a place for the thieves on friday night. Also there are no signs at all in the carpark....

astrofool

Opportunity is a car that can be stolen without it's keys these days.

No immobiliser? No steering wheel lock? Any alarm?

I don't see how the MC is in anyway responsible, anywho, how would they contact all the apartments in the block? Loudspeaker? What if someone was on holiday?

Hell, what if the reason it was being repaired was because it was getting stuck open.

While losing your car is cr*p, it could surely have been protected better.

athtrasna

SPM have dropped their service levels lately IMO.

Paulw

StrandRoad wrote: »

Either way, as soon as they knew that the gates could not be fixed in one go, the residents of the block should have been informed that the gates were going to be open all night. Surely additional security measures should have been considered, since they compromised the security of the building as a whole as access may be gained to the whole block from the car park!! I appreciate that residents would have been annoyed if the gates were locked and they couldn't get out, but surely the residents should have been informed of this potential breach of security.

How are they supposed to notify everyone? By post? By phone? By email? There is no way that they can notify everyone. There will always be a reason why someone wasn't contacted. Also, the management agent would usually only have the contact details for unit owners (members of the management company). What about the tenants then? They wouldn't be notified.

Only the directors of the management company could approve costs for any additional security, and this (in general) is a lot more expensive and may not always be possible. The management agent would have no power/authority to put in additional security.

Unfortunately, gates break. That is life.

Your main issue seems to be that you weren't notified. Maybe the management agent can improve on that, maybe they can't, but either way, they have no liability for your car being stolen. That's what you have car insurance for.

Lyn256

Paulw wrote: »

How are they supposed to notify everyone? By post? By phone? By email? There is no way that they can notify everyone.

Have to disagree PaulW-why couldn't they have made some type of effort to contact the residents.
I don't live in a managed building but common sense would tell me that the management agent should have contact details for all units and a text message or email could have been sent. Or whats to stop them printing out a note and putting it in each letterbox.
If I was paying a substantial management fee to an agent-its the least that I would expect

Paulw

Lyn256 wrote: »

Have to disagree PaulW-why couldn't they have made some type of effort to contact the residents.
I don't live in a managed building but common sense would tell me that the management agent should have contact details for all units and a text message or email could have been sent. Or whats to stop them printing out a note and putting it in each letterbox.
If I was paying a substantial management fee to an agent-its the least that I would expect

Cost and time are generally the issue.

Also, what is to say that they didn't try to contact people?? Just because the OP wasn't aware, doesn't mean that they hadn't contacted others.

While the management agent should have all the contact details for all units, in reality they seldom have details for everyone. People change phones, rent out units, change address (when renting out), etc, and while it is the responsibility of each person to make sure that the management agent has their contact details, in reality not everyone updates the agent. I know this from experience.

CiaranC

Paulw wrote: »

Cost and time are generally the issue.

Also, what is to say that they didn't try to contact people?? Just because the OP wasn't aware, doesn't mean that they hadn't contacted others.

While the management agent should have all the contact details for all units, in reality they seldom have details for everyone. People change phones, rent out units, change address (when renting out), etc, and while it is the responsibility of each person to make sure that the management agent has their contact details, in reality not everyone updates the agent. I know this from experience.

Are you serious? The management company should drop a letter into each post box in the complex, its not rocket science.

Paulw

CiaranC wrote: »

Are you serious? The management company should drop a letter into each post box in the complex, its not rocket science.

Time and cost. Time to get everything printed, to get someone to go around each door and drop in the letter. Cost of getting everything printed and hire someone to drop letters in each door.

The management agent wouldn't have the authority to do this. They would need to seek approval from the directors of the management company (who are not always available 24/7 to make decisions).

Maybe the gate maintenance company notified them late Fri that they wouldn't get the job finished that day, giving the management agent almost no time (within office hours) to arrange notification. Maybe the gate maintenance company didn't even notify the management agent that they couldn't finish the job and would have to return Monday?

No one here knows all the facts, aside from what the OP posted - gates left open Friday evening, the OP wasn't notified and the OPs car was stolen. No one here knows if other residents were notified that the gates would have to be left open. No one here knows who made the decision to leave the gates open.

I know the practicalities of this, since I was a director of a management company, and we did have gate faults from time to time, and we did, on occasion, have to leave the gates open due to a fault.

Jaysoose

Paulw wrote: »

Cost and time are generally the issue.

Also, what is to say that they didn't try to contact people?? Just because the OP wasn't aware, doesn't mean that they hadn't contacted others.

While the management agent should have all the contact details for all units, in reality they seldom have details for everyone. People change phones, rent out units, change address (when renting out), etc, and while it is the responsibility of each person to make sure that the management agent has their contact details, in reality not everyone updates the agent. I know this from experience.

Im sorry but you being pedantic, the management company could have put a notice up on all communal doors or something its not rocket science.

markpb

CiaranC wrote: »

Are you serious? The management company should drop a letter into each post box in the complex, its not rocket science.

I agree in principle but sometimes it's not so easy in practice. In my complex (with 200 apartments and 121 houses and duplexes), it takes a minimum of two hours to get around all the letter boxes. Add in time to print out 321 copies of the notice and then drive from their office to the complex and pretty soon you're looking at half a days work.

In any case, if the OP had been notified, where would they have parked their car? If there are alternate underground car parks, fair enough but otherwise the car would have gone to a surface spot or elsewhere in the city.

Lyn256

markpb wrote: »

I agree they should but to put it in perspective, in my complex (with 200 apartments, 32 cores and 121 houses and duplexes), it takes a minimum of two hours to get around all the letter boxes. Add in time to print out 321 copies of the notice and (for most agents) drive from their office to the complex and pretty soon you're looking at half a days work.

With such a large complex (and huge amount of revenue from management fees). Surely the management company would have 'handyman' /standby person to help out for such a situation.
At minimum wage, a half days work only costs €30/€40 (net cost 10/12c per unit) to deliver a notice. I'd imagine that there are thousands of people/students who be delighted to carry out such work at short notice (in fact I know a few myself).
That way the OP and other tenants with cars have options to look to park elsewhere or use additional security measures on their cars

Slunk

Any time there is anything happening in my apartment block a letter is put in all boxes and notices in the lobby and lifts. This even included hot water being turned off at short notice.

Paulw

Lyn256 wrote: »

With such a large complex (and huge amount of revenue from management fees). Surely the management company would have 'handyman' /standby person to help out for such a situation.

You clearly don't live in a managed complex or know about management companies. There is no "huge amount of revenue". Most management companies struggle from month to month to pay bills. Most don't have idle funds sitting around doing nothing.

Most don't have a "handyman" hanging around either.

Most developments do as little as possible, so as to keep management fees as low as possible (as per members requests).

Jaysoose

Paulw wrote: »

You clearly don't live in a managed complex or know about management companies. There is no "huge amount of revenue". Most management companies struggle from month to month to pay bills. Most don't have idle funds sitting around doing nothing.

Most don't have a "handyman" hanging around either.

Most developments do as little as possible, so as to keep management fees as low as possible (as per members requests).

The management company in my complex has both a contracted handyman that can be called by residents, it also has a sinking fund that has been built up over time to cover unexpected expense.

I know your quantifying your stance by saying "most" but your talking out your arse and obviously have an issue with your management company and couldnt possibly know about any other MC or its finances.

The OP's Management company could easily have put something up on the Car PArk gates when they knew the work needed to be done and people are just making excuses for their lack of common sense and to be honest i feel they are responsible to a degree for the op's car getting lifted.

ztoical

Having lived in one of those apartment complexes in Dublin for a number of years I saw plenty of bikes and cars go walkies from the underground carpark and most of the time it was when the gate was working fine. As has already been pointed out it's very easy to get in and out even when the gates are working so the idea that they somehow make the place more secure is rubbish. Anyone I know currently living in one has additional security on their cars/bikes to make them less of a target. The gates are there more to stop people who work nearby but don't live in the complex from parking there then anything else.

Honestly OP if the managment company had put a letter in your mail box friday night would you have seen it? Would you have seen a notice posted in the common areas? You didn't see the gates were open so I assume you were in your apartment most of the night. Had the repair company not told the management company till the end of the work day and it would have taken at least two hours for them to print up enough notices and bring them to the complex the majority of people would have been home for the night and would not have checked their mail box till the morning. Did you expect them to come knock on every door? Depending on the size of the complex that could have taken hours and end with alot of people complaining of being distrubed late at night.

And say they had been able to contact you be honest what would you have done? Moved the car out on to the street? To a public car park? Would you placed additional security on the car? And if yes that begs the question why wouldnt you have done that anyway regardless of wither the gate was working or not?

Paulw

Jaysoose wrote: »

I know your quantifying your stance by saying "most" but your talking out your arse and obviously have an issue with your management company and couldnt possibly know about any other MC or its finances.

The OP's Management company could easily have put something up on the Car PArk gates when they knew the work needed to be done and people are just making excuses for their lack of common sense and to be honest i feel they are responsible to a degree for the op's car getting lifted.

No, I've no issue with our management company, as it is well run, and we also have a sinking fund. I obviously don't know about this specific OPs management company, nor does anyone else posting. And, as I stated, we don't know the full circumstances of this incident either.

I did say "most" because I talk to a number of directors of management companies, and also have a very good working relationship with our management agent.

Even with a notice, the management agent would still have no liability towards the OPs car being stolen.

Jaysoose

Paulw wrote: »

No, I've no issue with our management company, as it is well run, and we also have a sinking fund. I obviously don't know about this specific OPs management company, nor does anyone else posting. And, as I stated, we don't know the full circumstances of this incident either.

I did say "most" because I talk to a number of directors of management companies, and also have a very good working relationship with our management agent.

Even with a notice, the management agent would still have no liability towards the OPs car being stolen.

The Op has an issue with the Management company not giving any notice that the gates would be open all night though, people are jumping on him as if its unreasonable for him to expect his management company to inform the residents of this.

Putting up a notice on the car park gates and the communal doors entries etc to the effect that work will be carried out is a simple thing to do and his management company chose not to do this for some reason only know to themselves but i would say it boils down to somebody being to fooking lazy to do their job.

Obviously cars are parked at the owners risk but the management company didnt help matters.

Again i highlighted the bit in bold as you cant possibly have spoke to most of the management companies in dublin, if you want to appear as some sort of subject matter expert based on talking to a few people then go ahead but we all know its BS.

markpb

Jaysoose wrote: »

Again i highlighted the bit in bold as you cant possibly have spoke to most of the management companies in dublin, if you want to appear as some sort of subject matter expert based on talking to a few people then go ahead but we all know its BS.

I can - as a member of the Apartment Owners Network, we speak to lots of management companies every month and I can tell you that most of them do not have staff on site (except for contractors) and do not have a sinking fund. Your management company might be in the happy position of having both - and congratulations to you/your directors - but most are not.

Yes the OPs management company should have notified the residents but we don't know the full story. Perhaps the repairmen finished work close to (or after) close of business on Friday after the agent had gone home. Perhaps the gates were working and a problem arose overnight resulting in the gates being opened for the remainder of the night. Perhaps there are just too many common areas to go around putting notices on at short notice. Perhaps the OP is living in Cavan but the agent is based in Meath and there just wasn't time to get there.

connundrum

Jaysoose wrote: »

The management company in my complex has both a contracted handyman that can be called by residents, it also has a sinking fund that has been built up over time to cover unexpected expense.

I know your quantifying your stance by saying "most" but your talking out your arse and obviously have an issue with your management company and couldnt possibly know about any other MC or its finances.

The OP's Management company could easily have put something up on the Car PArk gates when they knew the work needed to be done and people are just making excuses for their lack of common sense and to be honest i feel they are responsible to a degree for the op's car getting lifted.

I've reported this post for personal abuse. Paulw is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum and has a huge amount of experience in this field.

I worked as a PM for a number of years and would have managed between 12 - 15 sites during my time, vary in size from 10 odd units to 1500 units. Most complexes do not have a handy man/someone who can deliver notes at short notice. Of the number of occasions when an emergency did happen on a site, I would usually go to site myself and hand deliver notices. Most emergencies occur out of hours, meaning that I would be on site at any stage in the evening/night/weekend when it was possible.

It is possible that SPM PM's do not go to site like I did, or maybe on this one occasion they were not available to do so.

I have had experience of putting letters/notes in letter boxes only for people not to read them/ignore them and complain about it afterwards.

I have put signs up on gates and doors, warning residents of the issue, only for people again to ignore them, rip them down, claim that this effort was not enough etc.

I have sanctioned additional security for a site when an emergency occured, only to be shot down at an AGM for incurring the additional expense.

My point is that there is not one guaranteed solution in this scenario. Every meansure you might take will not be satisfactory to at least one affected party.

Again, sorry for the OP's stress, but you park anywhere at your own risk. If there is an issue with SPM's communication skills, I would address this directly with the directors of your MGT Co.

Jaysoose

connundrum wrote: »

I've reported this post for personal abuse. Paulw is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum and has a huge amount of experience in this field.

I worked as a PM for a number of years and would have managed between 12 - 15 sites during my time, vary in size from 10 odd units to 1500 units. Most complexes do not have a handy man/someone who can deliver notes at short notice. Of the number of occasions when an emergency did happen on a site, I would usually go to site myself and hand deliver notices. Most emergencies occur out of hours, meaning that I would be on site at any stage in the evening/night/weekend when it was possible.

It is possible that SPM PM's do not go to site like I did, or maybe on this one occasion they were not available to do so.

I have had experience of putting letters/notes in letter boxes only for people not to read them/ignore them and complain about it afterwards.

I have put signs up on gates and doors, warning residents of the issue, only for people again to ignore them, rip them down, claim that this effort was not enough etc.

I have sanctioned additional security for a site when an emergency occured, only to be shot down at an AGM for incurring the additional expense.

My point is that there is not one guaranteed solution in this scenario. Every meansure you might take will not be satisfactory to at least one affected party.

Again, sorry for the OP's stress, but you park anywhere at your own risk. If there is an issue with SPM's communication skills, I would address this directly with the directors of your MGT Co.

Again you can only speak for the MC you have intimate knowledge of so all your experience is great but not relevant in this case.

How hard is it to put up a notice when the work is booked in? im not posting any more on this as im not going to change my stance on the managment companies inaction in this case so anything more is pointless.

Jaysoose

connundrum wrote: »

I've reported this post for personal abuse. Paulw is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum and has a huge amount of experience in this field.

LOL ...enough said.

PCPhoto

astrofool wrote: »

Opportunity is a car that can be stolen without it's keys these days.

No immobiliser? No steering wheel lock? Any alarm?

I don't see how the MC is in anyway responsible, anywho, how would they contact all the apartments in the block? Loudspeaker? What if someone was on holiday?

Hell, what if the reason it was being repaired was because it was getting stuck open.

While losing your car is cr*p, it could surely have been protected better.

Don't blame the OP, I've been the victim of a stolen vehicle in a "secure" underground car park in the past, I had a new motorbike stolen the day after I got it, it was chained with two chains to a pillar in the "secure" underground car park - management company were told for a number of weeks previous that "local kids" were breaking into the carpark and nothing was done to stop them.

I never got my bike back and didn't have insurance arranged fast enough so had to accept the loss of several thousand euro.

from talking to people several years later I could and should have sued the management company for negligence as they were not doing their job and protecting the car park which was agreed in the management agreement.

OP - have a consultation with a solicitor and get them to send the management company a letter on your behalf - you should not be out of pocket for the inaction of someone else.

connundrum

Jaysoose wrote: »

Again you can only speak for the MC you have intimate knowledge of so all your experience is great but not relevant in this case.

How hard is it to put up a notice when the work is booked in? im not posting any more on this as im not going to change my stance on the managment companies inaction in this case so anything more is pointless.

I'm pretty sure that I wasn't defending the PM's inaction, more pointing out the routes that SPM could have taken and my experience with each action.

It is not hard to put up a notice, my point was that for some residents a notice would not have been enough. Had the PM delivered letters, this may not have been enough either. The PM is damned if they do and damned if they don't (which they didn't, granted).

But the overriding factor here is that the OP parked at his/her own risk.

PCPhoto wrote: »

from talking to people several years later I could and should have sued the management company for negligence as they were not doing their job and protecting the car park which was agreed in the management agreement.

OP - have a consultation with a solicitor and get them to send the management company a letter on your behalf - you should not be out of pocket for the inaction of someone else.

I'll go into this in a small way - without knowing the specifics of the complex you were living in. Are you 100% sure that each apartment owner had paid their MGT Fee in full prior to your bike being stolen? From my experience, this is rarely the case.

If your complex did not have 100% payment, then you can assume that the budgeted spending would be severaly hampered, and that the focus of attention would switch to ensuring that common area lights were working, waste was being collected, fire alarms were being serviced etc. Maybe they didn't have monies available for an emergency call out for gate repairs. Maybe they had a scheduled for a routine repair (at the convenience of the contractor) in order to save money.

A MGT Co cannot be held responsible for the criminal activities of others. They could not be held responsible for the fact that you had not insured your bike, nor can they be responsible for the OP's car.

Paulw

Again, we don't know if the management agent made attempt to contact unit owners or not, only that the OP wasn't notified.

There may have been notices. There may have been letters. There may have been phone calls, but just that the OP wasn't aware of any notice.

Blaming the management agent, without the full facts, isn't very constructive.

StrandRoad_old

Hi All, OP here again!

I can’t reply to all the posts, but I have read them all - thanks guys But let me clear up some of the questions that seem to have arisen…

In response to Paulw, the management company made no attempt whatsoever to contact the residents of the apartments - I wasn't the only one that wasn't notified, no one in the block was.

astrofool and Paulw refer to how complex and costly it is to contact people “how would they contact all the apartments in the block? Loudspeaker?”, I think a simple note of the front door, or notice board or a note in the letter box would have been sufficient...There are 22 apartments in the complex, it is by no means a huge complex and would be pretty easy to notify 22 apartments. Thanks for the posts Lyn256 and CiaranC, I agree with you that we pay substantial fees to the agent, it is the least that I expect that we could be notified of something which could have and did have such a significant effect on apartment security…They have no problem using these means to notify us when the management fees are due. The fees for this apartment are always paid, it is not acceptable that non payment of management fees by other residents should affect the services of the apartments that have been paid for, I think that’s a cop out on behalf of property management companies.

I can’t believe that some posters still refuse to believe that at least some of the responsibly for the car being stolen should lie with the management company. The simple fact of the matter is that the only night that the gates were left open, a car was stolen from the carpark…

monkeybutter

StrandRoad wrote: »

Hi All, OP here again!

I can’t reply to all the posts, but I have read them all - thanks guys But let me clear up some of the questions that seem to have arisen…

In response to Paulw, the management company made no attempt whatsoever to contact the residents of the apartments - I wasn't the only one that wasn't notified, no one in the block was.

astrofool and Paulw refer to how complex and costly it is to contact people “how would they contact all the apartments in the block? Loudspeaker?”, I think a simple note of the front door, or notice board or a note in the letter box would have been sufficient...There are 22 apartments in the complex, it is by no means a huge complex and would be pretty easy to notify 22 apartments. Thanks for the posts Lyn256 and CiaranC, I agree with you that we pay substantial fees to the agent, it is the least that I expect that we could be notified of something which could have and did have such a significant effect on apartment security…They have no problem using these means to notify us when the management fees are due. The fees for this apartment are always paid, it is not acceptable that non payment of management fees by other residents should affect the services of the apartments that have been paid for, I think that’s a cop out on behalf of property management companies.

I can’t believe that some posters still refuse to believe that at least some of the responsibly for the car being stolen should lie with the management company. The simple fact of the matter is that the only night that the gates were left open, a car was stolen from the carpark…

Yes you are right, it was negligent on their part to leave the car park unsecured, just as it would be if they left the front door open all night. No difference. They can't make it fool proof, but they have to make an attempt to keep it secure.

It would have been dead easy to drop a leaflet in each letterbox a week before hand, sum cost about 5 quid for the 20 apts, even without this they should have ensured the maint didn't result in the gates being unsecured overnight.

But don't be surprised by people having only negative input, its just the nature of boards, look at most of the other threads. We irish people are pretty small minded it would seem.

jd

StrandRoad wrote: »

The fees for this apartment are always paid, it is not acceptable that non payment of management fees by other residents should affect the services of the apartments that have been paid for, I think that’s a cop out on behalf of property management companies.

Leaving aside the parking issue, if some owners don't pay their management fees, services will be affected.

By the way, the management company is made up of the owners, so if they compensate you for damage to your car, it will come out of the service charges the owners have to pay.