Whats the next curve ball?

The Bored One

Hey folks, just a little thought exercise. MMA is pretty much an ever evolving sport, and as time passes we're probably going to see alot more changing and refining of it. Some changes may be that new strategies become popular, techniques or styles that people were skeptical of prove effective, parts of the game that have gone neglected make a resurgence or even changes in rules or judging criteria that fighters will need to adapt to.
What do you wonderful folks think the next likely examples of these could be?
I'm looking for stuff that people think may be in the works at the moment, things you may have seen examples of etc,
So rather than changes you'd like to see, its changes we're likely to see.

cowzerp

The basic best stuff for mma will stay the same, Wrestlng-BJJ-Boxing-Muay thai and occasionally you will get a special fighter who can make use of other skills-were in the start of a true complete mma era where fighters are not boxers, bjj players but true mma fighters

What your describing has already happened in my opinion.

fightireland

I agree with Paul - I believe there are less unknown then there was say five years ago. I can't see anybody shocking the world by punching like a cricket bowler and have everyone adapt to that style.

The best answer I have heard on this comes from Dana to be honest; when he (roughly) said "the paradigm is shifting now the super athletes that would have gone on to play basketball or football (NFL) are taking up MMA as their chosen sport"

A very intuitive statement in my opinion....

The Bored One

Oh I know the main form of MMA fairly defined at this point. What I'm more curious about is the minor refinements that you think might occur?

fightireland

The Bored One wrote: »

Oh I know the main form of MMA fairly defined at this point. What I'm more curious about is the minor refinements that you think might occur?

Are you referring to fireballs?

:):)

pablohoney87

The Bored One wrote: »

Oh I know the main form of MMA fairly defined at this point. What I'm more curious about is the minor refinements that you think might occur?

Using the Groin Guard as a weapon;)

fightireland

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Using the Groin Guard as a weapon;)

Oh that's happened - trying to escape mount (My nose vs. metal Thai cup) The cup won...

pablohoney87

I was thinkin more in north south control in a striking motion. Yes i realise what that would look like

cowzerp

The specialists will die out-thats it

At the top level thats already happened.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I think the inclusion of Kendo is the next logical step.

The Bored One

fightireland wrote: »

Are you referring to fireballs?

:):)

Given Pettis's famous kick and the cartwheel kick attempts by Ebersole at UFC 127, I'd say someone trying to do the Hurricane Kick is more likely

fightireland

The Bored One wrote: »

Given Pettis's famous kick and the cartwheel kick attempts by Ebersole at UFC 127, I'd say someone trying to do the Hurricane Kick is more likely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q6FvAY1S6s

Barry.Oglesby

I'm just waiting on someone to come up with some way of striking with your arse.

The Bored One

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'm just waiting on someone to come up with some way of striking with your arse.

Mark Hunt did do that Atomic Butt Drop against Wanderlei. Always amusing to watch in slow motion.

Tag Teams

Barry.Oglesby

The Bored One wrote: »

Mark Hunt did do that Atomic Butt Drop against Wanderlei. Always amusing to watch in slow motion.

Then there is nothing new to be invented. I'll never watch another fight.

Professey Chin

Deleted User wrote: »

Tag Teams

Think some chinese promotion already tried that :pac:

Xlami

Deleted User wrote: »

Tag Teams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkJGwLBtp8

Sorry I'm not sure how to embed videos. If you can watch as far as 7.40 or so it looks like they're trying to recreate the human centipede.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Xlami wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkJGwLBtp8

Sorry I'm not sure how to embed videos. .

Click the youtube tags and these will come up...

Logical Fallacy

You'll see a lot more Judo, lighting fast throws from the clinch.

You'd be seeing it already if Parisyan hadn't ended up suffering so badly from anxiety issues and had been able to live up to the promise he showed early in his career.

But i reckon as people work wrestling more and more and the wrestling can't get things to the ground as much as they want to they'll naturally move over to bringing in some Judo slickness. It makes sense when you consider their balance and explosive hips will parley over pretty well to it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

You'll see a lot more Judo, lighting fast throws from the clinch.

You'd be seeing it already if Parisyan hadn't ended up suffering so badly from anxiety issues and had been able to live up to the promise he showed early in his career.

But i reckon as people work wrestling more and more and the wrestling can't get things to the ground as much as they want to they'll naturally move over to bringing in some Judo slickness. It makes sense when you consider their balance and explosive hips will parley over pretty well to it.

I'm not just in agreement with you because I'm a judoka, but I've been thinking the same for a long time now - plus an audience loves a bit of flash.

Luke Corcoran would be better placed to comment on judo in an MMA context than I, but I don't think an MMA fighters Judo needs to be as refined as that of a competitive Judoka because a lot of judo combinations won't work without the gi or in an MMA setting.

However!.. With the new IJF rules barring leg grabs in Judo competition I think if Judo became more common in MMA it'll be short lived.

Barry.Oglesby

I think if Judo was to have made a significant impact it would have done so already. The curve is too steep especially considering Greco and Freestyle guys have been competing at a high level without the gi since they were 5 or 6.

In all honesty, I think specialists will still prevail.

lukeyjudo

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think if Judo was to have made a significant impact it would have done so already.

Not necessarily so, high level international judoka spend their entire lives chasing that Olympic medal. With London 2012 coming up our closest neighbours the British are mad for their first ever Judo Olympic Gold. Any high level judoka at the moment would never drop out of the Olympic race at this stage.

The MMA judo specialists we've seen in the cage at the highest level so far have all been past their primes as they've given the best years of their lives to their original sport. So they're not at their peak in MMA.

After 2012 you never know you might see a lot of fantastic judo athletes just approaching their peak try their hand in MMA and take to it like a fish in water. I know several international competitors I'd love to see fight MMA.

I think judo (especially pre rule change) can make you damn effective in the clinch and in coolmine my lads spend a lot of time there.

And as for the curve being too steep against greco etc why not use judo to beat it? If you're fighting a wrestler with a ton of experience you're never ever going to outwrestle him, you may aswell outjudo him. You fight fire with ice, fighting fire with fire gets you kicked out of the fire brigade.

Personally I don't think there will be a curveball as such but you will see a lot of younger up and coming fighters who favour no range of fighting and are fantastic athletes with amazing BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, Kick Boxing whatever. The labels and belts will mean nothing to them and I think right now is an exciting time to be an MMA coach.

da-bres

mma fights in the gi, judo and jits players would dominate!

The human hand is designed to grip, not punch;)

not that this would actli happen

lukeyjudo

da-bres wrote: »

mma fights in the gi, judo and jits players would dominate!

The human hand is designed to grip, not punch;)

not that this would actli happen

But it would be freaking awesome!!! lol

They kind of do it already in Combat Sambo, they even allow headbutts!! :O

Xlami

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkJGwLBtp8

Thanks Makikomi

The Bored One

lukeyjudo wrote: »

Not necessarily so, high level international judoka spend their entire lives chasing that Olympic medal. With London 2012 coming up our closest neighbours the British are mad for their first ever Judo Olympic Gold. Any high level judoka at the moment would never drop out of the Olympic race at this stage.

The MMA judo specialists we've seen in the cage at the highest level so far have all been past their primes as they've given the best years of their lives to their original sport. So they're not at their peak in MMA.

After 2012 you never know you might see a lot of fantastic judo athletes just approaching their peak try their hand in MMA and take to it like a fish in water. I know several international competitors I'd love to see fight MMA.

I think judo (especially pre rule change) can make you damn effective in the clinch and in coolmine my lads spend a lot of time there.

And as for the curve being too steep against greco etc why not use judo to beat it? If you're fighting a wrestler with a ton of experience you're never ever going to outwrestle him, you may aswell outjudo him. You fight fire with ice, fighting fire with fire gets you kicked out of the fire brigade.

Personally I don't think there will be a curveball as such but you will see a lot of younger up and coming fighters who favour no range of fighting and are fantastic athletes with amazing BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, Kick Boxing whatever. The labels and belts will mean nothing to them and I think right now is an exciting time to be an MMA coach.

I'm not sure of how accurate this impression is but I've felt for a while now that the emphasis on wrestling is the offensive while in Judo its on the counter-offensive. There seems to be a lot of cross-over in techniques, but its mainly a difference in focus. As well as of course the differences from gi versus no-gi.
I'd be quite curious to see a fusion of judo and wrestling for MMA, in a manner like how Jake Shields mixes BJJ and wrestling for his "American Jiu-Jitsu"

El Guapo!

That Tag-team MMA is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

RoboRat

I have been doing Judo for a few months now and I definitely can see a use in MMA - the throws and takedowns are immense and the ground game is pretty good too (obviously not as good as BJJ). I think if someone sat down and refined Judo where the Gi throws and subs are modified to be effective without a Gi, they would be extremely handy. As said earlier, it provides a bit of flash and having watched Mir vs Nelson, the crowd went crazy for the hip toss by Mir.

Richy06

Karo Parysian already did adapt his judo for MMA. Sadly his personal problems destroyed a once highly promising career.

Marty Mc

Judo without the gi = wrestling.

There was a great write up about this on Bloodyelbow.
Link

I've been hearing some newer fans to the sport talk about their affinity for judo. They exaggerate the applicability of the art in MMA, but there is something to the growth and development of judo players in the sport or even just typical throws being properly executed by typical fighters. But to what extent do the top judo players in the judo sport make their way successfully into MMA? Sergio Non explores:

Among the thousands of MMA competitors over the years, few have a high-level judo background. The judomma.com site lists just 31 MMA fighters who have medaled in national or international judo competitions over the last two decades. Within that group, the number at MMA's elite level can be counted on two hands:

[Karo] Parisyan, winner of six belts at U.S. Judo's junior nationals before entering MMA.

Pawel Nastula, who fought four times in Pride FC after a distinguished judo career that included two world championships, three European titles and a gold at the 1996 Olympics.

Hidehiko Yoshida, 1992 Olympic gold medalist and 1999 world before becoming a Pride favorite and now a headliner for World Victory Road.

Dong-Sik Yoon, Pride and Dream competitor, winner of the 2000 Asian Championships, bronze medalist at the 2001 worlds.

Fedor Emelianenko, former Pride champion and a two-time bronze medalist in Russia's judo championships, although he's mainly known for his prowess in another grappling speciality, combat sambo.

Yoshihiro Akiyama, a K-1 superstar who now fights for Dream; he won the 2002 Asian Games and made the semifinals of the 2003 world championships, albeit with controversy over a slick uniform.

Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou, Pride and UFC fighter, 2001 U.S. Open champion.

Kazuhiro Nakamura, veteran of Pride and UFC, and a bronze medalist at Japanese nationals.

Of that group, Emelianenko is the only one who has won a title belt from a major MMA organization.

The fighters in the judomma.com database have a combined MMA record of 175-83-4. Almost half of those wins come from five fighters: Emelianenko, Parisyan, Hector Lombard, Nakamura and Akiyama.

A few fighters have studied judo extensively, but lack wins at the sport's top level. They include Shinya Aoki, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Hayato Sakurai, Kazuo Misaki, Shonie Carter and Tsuyoshi Kohsaka.

Even though the number of judokas remains small, it's an improvement from MMA's first few years, which were dominated by BJJ practitioners, wrestlers, shootfighters and strikers. Now, even some fighters who aren't necessarily judo specialists have incorporated its moves into their repertoire.

All too true, but there are some problems with this analysis.

First, in the case of Yoshida, Yoon, Akiyama and Nakamura, all have fought with the gi in MMA matches in Japan. Granted, they've also all fought without the gi, but the lack of consistency there makes drawing some conclusions difficult. Second, despite the fact that there are hundreds of throws, only a handful of throws have been used successfully in MMA: harai ogoshi, uchi mata, osoto gari, tai otoshi and various forms of seo nage. No gi jiu-jitsu has limitations in some respects and is a different game than the gi game, but it does, overall, adapt far better to MMA than judo. And while high level judo players have great submissions, "newaza" isn't as highly emphasized in judo circles as it is in jiu-jitsu. Lastly, there are a lot of throws that even if properly executed end up giving the opposition the thrower's back. Parisyan usually finds a way out of this, but wrestlers with good guard passing are much more able to land in dominant positions and avoid some of the recklessness that comes from throws.

Still, though, the growth of judo on MMA and the infusion of top judo players is yet another example of the continued evolution of MMA.

fightireland

Marty Mc wrote: »

Judo without the gi = wrestling.

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

fightireland

fightireland wrote: »

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

I was hoping it was too. Very subtle trolling

arybvtcw0eolkf

fightireland wrote: »

ah c'mon that has to be a joke?

Why a joke?.

Just based on my own personal experience I'd suggest the only difference between no-gi judo, no-gi BJJ and wrestling is a set of rules, ando supple differences in technique.

I'd say they could all be put under the umbrella of 'wrestling' styles.

riffmongous

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a great write up about this on Bloodyelbow.
Link

Good read.

As a judo fan, Parisyan was great, out of all the fighters mentioned in that article he was the most recognisable as a judo-based fighter imo (even compared to Yoshida in a gi).

I know its been asked loads of times before but does anyone think we'll ever see a high-level boxer with high level takedown defense in mma? Or is it even possible to train top level boxing alongside the wrestling defence needed to survive at the highest level?

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

I know its been asked loads of times before but does anyone think we'll ever see a high-level boxer with high level takedown defense in mma? Or is it even possible to train top level boxing alongside the wrestling defence needed to survive at the highest level?

Maybe Dos Santos if he can stay on his feet against Cain. As Cerrone showed on Saturday you can't be aggressive on the feet without worrying about the takedown.

cowzerp

High level boxers make way too much money so it's not likely you'll get 1 in Mma unless there past it and not earning big money, a few years ago Dana called out any champion boxer to fight any UFC champ and kermit citron offered to fight Sean sherk who was the champion and Dana made his excuses, Cintron had been a decent wrestler in high school and was peak in boxing with serious power.

What we will see is more Mma fighters who are capable at boxing like dos santos but certainly not top level boxers.

Marty Mc

Fightireland - why would i troll?

Wrestling is one of, if not, thee oldest sport on the planet - 'judo throws' evolved from wrestling. The diff was the practicioners applied the use of the gi and refined the technique to suit their sport.

Judo is based on gi work and grips to set up throws.

If you take away the gi - is it judo? can a judo player still perform the techniques without the grip of cloth?

I would say some but a majority of techniques - no.

Therefore i refer to my first statement - judo without the gi = wrestling.

fightireland

Marty Mc wrote: »

Fightireland - why would i troll?

Wrestling is one of, if not, thee oldest sport on the planet - 'judo throws' evolved from wrestling. The diff was the practicioners applied the use of the gi and refined the technique to suit their sport.

Judo is based on gi work and grips to set up throws.

If you take away the gi - is it judo? can a judo player still perform the techniques without the grip of cloth?

I would say some but a majority of techniques - no.

Therefore i refer to my first statement - judo without the gi = wrestling.

Ah now trolling is far more serious that what I accused you of, which was simply having a laugh.

I guess I saw this as some how insulting the traditions of Judo....but I guess I got it all wrong.

The Bored One

So as the striking for MMA for gets more refined, what do people think it will start to look like? Its obviously a good bit crisper now than it was in the past, though still more than a few people who take the swinging for the fences approach. And how do you think the form of it will differ from the pure striking styles?

Logical Fallacy

Richy06 wrote: »

Karo Parysian already did adapt his judo for MMA. Sadly his personal problems destroyed a once highly promising career.

Indeed he did, but it didn't have enough impact on the overall body of MMA fighters because he never won a belt.

I might be a bit off with this, but i reckon it's only when someone wins a belt and holds it for a while that people really start to break down their style and examine the facets of their game and these then get soaked up into the sport as a new standard.

cowzerp

Just because 1 or 2 people can use there skills in an unusual way does not mean it will be effective if used by others, Judo without grips is very difficult and only a very select few could use it..

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA, its just too difficult to learn and the time could be better served learning Greco and freestyle wrestling

Xlami

I agree that Wrestling is the best base. While I don't ever see judo being a major player in MMA in can compliment Greco-Roman very well. It's something Jon Jones does a lot, combine the two and performs spectacular throws.

lukeyjudo

cowzerp wrote: »

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA

Never say never

its just too difficult to learn

I disagree. Depends on your coach.

tadix

i think that the basic styles for mma (boxing,muay thai,wrestling bjj ect)are baisicly set at this stage but i do think that there are techniques that will people will begin to use more such as the sidekick ,superman jab and some of eddie bravo's positions like rubber gaurd and the truck.

Logical Fallacy

cowzerp wrote: »

Just because 1 or 2 people can use there skills in an unusual way does not mean it will be effective if used by others, Judo without grips is very difficult and only a very select few could use it..

Judo while a great sport will never become a major player in MMA, its just too difficult to learn and the time could be better served learning Greco and freestyle wrestling

Cheers for the explanation man, i'll definitely defer to your much greater knowledge.

cowzerp

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Cheers for the explanation man, i'll definitely defer to your much greater knowledge.

Hi bud
Long time no talk

That's just an opinion, not a matter of fact-maybe the next evolution in Mma will be judo and I will br proved wrong.

Logical Fallacy

cowzerp wrote: »

Hi bud
Long time no talk

Hey mate, yeah i've been in low key land dealing with assorted health issues. As soon as i am right again i'll be out to a Rush show.

Mellor

Xlami wrote: »

I agree that Wrestling is the best base. While I don't ever see judo being a major player in MMA in can compliment Greco-Roman very well. It's something Jon Jones does a lot, combine the two and performs spectacular throws.

Jons does a lot of throws, but that comes from him being a incredibly strong wrestler and not somebody that is incorporating judo. H

tadix wrote: »

i think that the basic styles for mma (boxing,muay thai,wrestling bjj ect)are baisicly set at this stage but i do think that there are techniques that will people will begin to use more such as the sidekick ,superman jab and some of eddie bravo's positions like rubber gaurd and the truck.

That's the way i see it. They are just part of MT or BJJ or what ever, as each area of training becomes optimised for MMA, and not just learning the full range of each.
THe vast majority of BJJ techniques don't work in MMA, those that are used to continue to expand as people adapt existing techniques.

Easy example is Korean Zombie's twister verses Garcia, it hadn't been used much in MMA (never in the UFC), so he didn't even defend it. He was defending the RNC and actually made it easier for Zombie to pull it off.

Richy06

Jon Jones has studied judo throws as part of his offensive arsenal. He's freely admitted learning/discovering techniques from youtube and trying them out in training. His throws are technique, not just brutal "wrestler strength".