Attic Insulation?

AMG86

When putting in the insulation make sure that the first layer is reasonably tight against the rafters i.e. that there are no gaps. When laying the second layer again make sure that the rows are very close to each other. As other guys have said watch the ventilation piece.

If you do the job yourself you will not get the grant.

slimjimmc

AMG86 wrote: »

When putting in the insulation make sure that the first layer is reasonably tight against the rafters i.e. that there are no gaps. When laying the second layer again make sure that the rows are very close to each other. As other guys have said watch the ventilation piece.

If you do the job yourself you will not get the grant.

Yeah, but since the grant is only €200 it's not much of an incentive to pay a lot extra for a registered contractor to do the work if you can do it yourself.
http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Better_energy_homes/homeowner/What_Grants_Are_Available/

looksee

The other alternative is blown in insulation. Much quicker and therefore cheaper as it does not cost anywhere near as much for labour. We had it done and it was accepted for BER cert.

runawaybishop

Just do it yourself and look up north to buy, rolls are pretty cheap up there (about 5 yoyo on sale) - 12 inches is pretty much the minimum you need if i remember right. Don't forget to leave a space under your water tank so it doesn't freeze in the winter.

edit: 3 GBP on b+q website and they are pre-cut which saves a bit of work - they can be limited per customer though.

para45

Ye as mentioned above me go up north if yuo can . B&Q Newry do massive specials . They have 5.5sqm at 200mm for £3 . 3 rolls in a pack precut

I used it before and does the job . Only problem is you need some space like a van or a trailer to make it worth your while.

I think the limit is 100 sqm but you just get a buddy to go with you and he buys his 100 also

dnme

para45 wrote: »

Ye as mentioned above me go up north if yuo can . B&Q Newry do massive specials . They have 5.5sqm at 200mm for £3 . 3 rolls in a pack precut

I used it before and does the job . Only problem is you need some space like a van or a trailer to make it worth your while.

I think the limit is 100 sqm but you just get a buddy to go with you and he buys his 100 also

paddy147 wrote: »

170 and 200mm loft insulation is 3 quid a roll in the UK.

Thanks very much to david cameron so.:D

On the Homebase website, they have this insulation on offer for £3 a roll. However these offers don't seem to apply to N.Ireland. I just rang Homebase in Omagh, They told me that they have no offers on insulation. That particular Carbon Zero product is £15 in their store and anyway they do not have it in stock.

runawaybishop

If you check around you should find some on offer - I know for a fact that in the past you could buy rolls very cheaply.

paddy147

dnme wrote: »

On the Homebase website, they have this insulation on offer for £3 a roll. However these offers don't seem to apply to N.Ireland. I just rang Homebase in Omagh, They told me that they have no offers on insulation. That particular Carbon Zero product is £15 in their store and anyway they do not have it in stock.

Well I got a shed load (and I mean a shed load) of the stuff brought over from the UK from Focus DIY (now gone bust) and also Wickes.

3 quid a roll.:D

Build4less.ie

Lavail if you like I can supply you with 25 rolls of Moy attic insulation for €400 incl delivery.

Build4less

Build4less.ie

LaVail wrote: »

Yeah a few people told me to be careful not to block the vents, there's gap's all over the place up there though and a lot of wind is getting in..Sometimes on a very windy day the attic cover is flapping and banging mad. Im going to cover in some of the gaps but Ill leave some to keep it vented.



Thats always the case, rip off Ireland in full flight.. No wonder we're in the hole that we are.

Lavail if you like I can supply you with 25 rolls of Moy attic insulation for €400 incl delivery.

Build4less

LaVail

Had a few bits going on the last couple of weeks so nearly forgot about this thread. We are now in the process of getting the grant for the insulation. Thought we wouldn't qualify a while back but now it seems we will. All the guys fitting it provide the insulation themselves so all my bargain hunting may have been for nothing

Still handy to have this thread as a reference though in case it falls through.

Build4less.ie wrote: »

Lavail if you like I can supply you with 25 rolls of Moy attic insulation for €400 incl delivery.

Build4less

Thanks for the quote but looks like we'll qualify for the grant. Will keep you in mind if it doesnt go through

CtrlSource

Hi all,

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread (",) - Will start a separate one, if needed.

Relatives have a bungalow that needs further insulation in its attic space.

The house has a double pitched roof and there are two separate attics. The first attic is straightforward with timber beams, joists etc., that rolls of insulation could be laid down between in the standard way.

However, the second pitched roof is erected over a part reinforced concrete, part felt roof that forms the floor of the second attic (garage and extensions that previous owners decided to build a pitched roof over).

If rockwool insulation was laid directly over a concrete or felt floor, could problems with condensation and / or ventilation arise? They have a quote from a fitter to lay 300mm rockwool over the entire, but I don't think they've question him about the concrete bit. Just something I was wondering about...

Any advice greatly appreciated.

eamon11

hi Folks,

I am in the process of doing the same but the house is 32 years old an has some fiberglass already in place. It yellow an old at this stage. I dont know when it was put there as I have recently bought the house.
Anyway, my question is should I remove and discard this, or should I just roll my new insulation over it?

Thanks a lot,
Eamon

Build4less.ie

I would recommend you remove the insulation that is there and replace it with some new insulation. Insulation only has a shelf life of around 10-15 years and would generally need to be replaced after that as it looses its insulation properties.

Look up "Moy Isover Insulation" in google and you will find suppliers for insulation there.

Kind regards
Build4less

heinbloed

Build4less.ie wrote:

Insulation only has a shelf life of around 10-15 years and would generally need to be replaced after that as it looses its insulation properties.

Where did you find this information, Build4less.ie ?

Build4less.ie

heinbloed wrote: »

Build4less.ie wrote:



Where did you find this information, Build4less.ie ?

This would be information that is pretty well know within the industry. Most insulation on the market will only perform form a certain period of time and it will need to be replaced and this goes with PIR insulation aswell.

What happens is is that the glasswool insulation begins compact as gravity begins to take its toll. Once glasswool begins to compact it looses its insulation properties as it needs its fullness to perform to the best. That is why your are always told never to compact insulation into a space as once you begin to squeeze the insulation its no good. Also as the insulation ages it also becomes less flexible in itself and becomes more brital and is easier to pull apart. In effect it looks and feels as if the insulation has lost life and is no longer full or flexible. With that comes its loss in insulation values.

heinbloed

I don't believe a single word, Build4less.ie, please publish some links to official or private web pages or literature to convince me/us.

All mineral wool MUST be compacted so far that a 'gravity compaction/sagging' is avoided. This is done in the factory (bats,felts) or on-site by applying the recommended kg/m3.

Build4less.ie

heinbloed wrote: »

I don't believe a single word, Build4less.ie, please publish some links to official or private web pages or literature to convince me/us.

All mineral wool MUST be compacted so far that a 'gravity compaction/sagging' is avoided. This is done in the factory (bats,felts) or on-site by applying the recommended kg/m3.

Sure just go up to any attic that is 10 years or more old and you will see for yourself. Factory compaction will not prevent compaction of the glasswool or mineral wool forever. Even rockwool starts to loose its freshness as soon as it comes off the production line and that is a known fact but it takes many years before you can see this deterioration.

Why is it that old glasswool insulation is being thrown out of attics all over the country and replaced with new glasswool insulation. The old insulation can be left in the attic it wont do any harm but its is nowhere near as effective as the new insulation that has been put in its place. Mainly because the glasswool has compacted significantly to less that half its thickness and the insulation only works its best when it is at its full thickness.

If standard glasswool cannot compact because it is factory compressed then why is that standard glasswool should not be used in timberframe walls? Its because it will sag due to gravity and its own weight. Exactly the same thing happens in an attic.

Build4less

heinbloed

.....and still no links?

Sure the installation of mineral wool has to be done correctly. As any other material installation.
Blowing shredded mineral wool onto a floor (attic) is a dubious method, sagging can't be avoided this way.
Sagging has to be taken into acount, therefore a certain mass has to be applied(kg/m2) to achieve the wanted result.

Build4less.ie

heinbloed wrote: »

.....and still no links?

Sure the installation of mineral wool has to be done correctly. As any other material installation.
Blowing shredded mineral wool onto a floor (attic) is a dubious method, sagging can't be avoided this way.
Sagging has to be taken into acount, therefore a certain mass has to be applied(kg/m2) to achieve the wanted result.

heinbloed have you ever installed insulation before I doubt it. Have you ever held new insulation in your hand I doubt it.

If you try to compact glasswool insulation straight out of its wrapper it will just return back to its original state (fluffy). When the insulation is in its wrapper it is squeezed tight to eliminate transport costs to reduce the size of the roll. As soon as you open the packaging it expands immediately to its intended size so trying to compress this material on-site when it has been compressed in its packaging fr possibly months is funny to be honest.

Never ever do you compress glasswool insulation once you do this you loose its properties. Sure why buy 200mm insulation if you are going to compress it to 150mm why not just buy 150mm insulation cause the 200mm compressed to 150mm will only do the job as 150mm insulation.

heinbloed

Sorry, Build4less.ie, you seem to miss the point.

Please publish some information on mineral wool insulation failing in the attic, as proposed by the OP.

Any link would do now.

Build4less.ie

heinbloed wrote: »

Sorry, Build4less.ie, you seem to miss the point.

Please publish some information on mineral wool insulation failing in the attic, as proposed by the OP.

Any link would do now.

I dont need a link nor do I have a link. You tell us then why insulation is being replaced all over Ireland and the UK?

Why is it then that glasswool insulation is being thrown out of attics if it is perfectly fine to stay there. I have gone up into attics and seen old glasswool for myself that is only fit for the skip. I have renovated buildings and seen for myself that the old glasswool is not fit for purpose anymore. Gravity eventually takes its toll on the glasswool and it compacts. Once it compacts it looses it insulation properties therefore it needs to be replaced.

Al Capwned

Links - Evidence - Proof .
Heinbloed - With all due respect, please don't attack a post when you are not in posession of all the facts.....

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070716232432AAiiFgT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_insulation_materials

http://http://www.qualityhomeinsulators.com/need_to_know.htm

Build4Less - Completely agree with you - of course fibreglass loses its effectivity over time, because as gravity compresses the wool, the insulating airspaces are reduced....

heinbloed

Sorry, alproctor, you seem to have missed the point.

Fibreglass does not loose it's thermal insulating properties when compressed.

The laws of physics... well, ......

It is usually the air/gas between the fibres of glass which provide a varying thermal insulation, depending on compaction. Not the fibre glass/mineral itself. It keeps it's thermal insulating capacity as long as it exists. No matter on the compaction.

For U-values or R-values contact the manufacturers, the funny Yahoo link is written for illiterates, propably US sourced/determined.

And that glass (a silica compound) deterioates after 10 years is a miracle I have seen only declared in this post so far by build4less.ie. Never before.

There are plenty of people suffering of silicosis, a glas/mineral fibre caused desease. The outbreak of silicosis happens usually decades after first exposure.

So please alproctor and build4less.ie: contact the medical world with these fundamental news. Your advise might help many.

How much of a (life-time) guarantee do builders give on the thermal insulating quality of mineral fibres? Any links?
Or by the manufacturers? Any links?
Sure an installer would have to take cavity wall/timber frame houses apart to replace the mineral fibres every 1-2 decades?

Any links,any info?


Don't come with Yahoo (smiley)!

Al Capwned

Insulation is rated in terms of thermal resistance, called R-value, which indicates the resistance to heat flow. The higher the R-value, the greater the insulating effectiveness. The R-value of thermal insulation depends on the type of material, its thickness, and its density. In calculating the R-value of a multi-layered installation, the R-values of the individual layers are added.


The effectiveness of an insulated ceiling, wall or floor depends on how and where the insulation is installed.

Insulation which is compressed will not give you its full rated R-value. This can happen if you add denser insulation on top of lighter insulation in an attic. It also happens if you place insulation rated for one thickness into a thinner cavity, such as placing glass wool insulation rated for say, 200mm into a thinner wall cavity.

Insulation placed between joists, rafters, and studs does not retard heat flow through those joists or studs. This heat flow is called thermal bridging. So, the overall R-value of a wall or ceiling will be somewhat different from the R-value of the insulation itself.

Al Capwned

heinbloed wrote: »

Fibreglass does not loose it's thermal insulating properties when compressed.

Not completely,but it does lessen over time for the reasons stated in previous post.

heinbloed

Well, it's the standing air which (thermally) insulates in a thermally insulating product. The glass/mineral insulates as well (see window panes), the combination of the both gives a product which can perform to the demand which had been asked for.

The OP wants to know how to handle mineral fibres left in the attick, planning to insulate it.

Some in this thread argue that it should be left where it is and being covered with the new, proposed insulation material. Others (me) recommend that it would be wise to remove the existing old mineral fibre by someone used to hazardous waste handling.

The thermal insulating properties of the finished product (the insulated ceiling) won't be effected at all to the negative if the old mineral fibre was left in place and the new material placed on top. But the oposite. The more material is used the better the result.

But: the building's value, it's quality would seriously be effected if hazardous materials (presence of carcinogenic mineral fibres resulting from previous insulation attempts) are used in it's construction.

So saving on the specialists -such a proper job costs money- and going the DIY route when working with hazardous materials is a short term calculation. Cowboys work like this.

This is the DIY forum. And not the kill-for-profit forum.

Proper advise can be got from the local health and safety officer, from the general practitioner/pneumonologist. For free or a little consultation fee.


PS
There are "U-value calculation" programs for free on the www.

Build4less.ie

Heinbloed why are you dragging this thread into your issues. Noone spoke of hazardous materials until you brought it up and noone cares about it. You are just scaremongering.

The op as you rightly said only wants to know about whether to take out the insulation or not and you say take it out but if you do that you run the risk of polluting the atmosphere in the immediate vicinity. Then on the other hand you say leave it there as it will not have a negative effect on the new insulation that is there, which is correct.

The old insulation which is in place now will not have a negative effect on the new insulation but it is not much good as it is old and has lost it fullness which is what it needs to be effective.

Also why would you recommend that this insulation be removed if it is still as good as the day it was bought which is what you are saying. To me you are completely contradicting yourself.

I dont care what your links say Im just saying that I would remove the old insulation and replace it with new insulation as the old insulation is not doing a whole lot and is just taking up space in the attic that could be replaced with a better material. If you have health issues with the material start another thread yourself this is not the thread for that.

Build4less

gsxr1

Why are you arguing about crap?

If its ok, it will look OK.

If it needs replaced you will be cold.

simples;)

cubix

Looked this up on B&Q "Knauf Saver Value Triple Loft Insulation 200mm" for £3 but it mentions price is not applicable in the North, is this correct?

This promotion is not available in Northern Ireland, who do not participate in the CERT Scheme