Really Need Help - Child Behaviour

jmcc99_98

Hi I am hoping someone might be able to help me with some advice.

My wife and I have two boys, one age 6 and one aged 15 months.

Over the past few years we are having a lot of trouble with the 6 year old. It isnt anything particularly bad but is constant.

He gets in trouble at school, by doing silly things and misbehaving, when at home to get him to do anything will take an age, i.e. every morning is a running battle for him to get ready for school, it could take over an hour even with constant battles.

He might get in trouble at 6oc and gets given out to or punished but seems to have completely forgotten about it 5 minutes later and will do the same thing.

If he is in a social setting he has to be the centre of attention and is constantly jabbering away to anyone that will listen. If he wants to talk then he will, irrespective of whether he he interupts people or not. If he doesnt get his way he always turns to tears immediately, not necessarily major tantums but crying.

He has no problem concentrating for hours on end if he needs to and is very generous and caring at times especially with his little brother.

Im sorry if all the above seems trivial but because it is constant, and I mean constant it is getting us down and especially my wife who has more time with him, she really is at her wits end because nothing seems to work with him.

We have tried every approach possible, the negative approach, the positive approach, ignoring it, attacking it etc etc etc. but nothing seems to work.

We are considering a child psychologist but its very very expensive and we are not sure if we are over reacting and this is just normal 6 year old boy behaviour??

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

LadyMayBelle

First off, it grabs me that he had a new sibling come into the arena when he was 4.5/5 years. How was his behaviour prior to that? Is this behaviour new or something that has happened since the birth of his sibling. I think it's really imporant we know that..

Second, I would be of the camp that says children want attention, and if they don’t get it, all hell can break lose. I imagine he got a lot more attention pre-baby, which is natural. Do you and your wife get to spend solid ‘him’ only time with him, individually?

Obviously you can’t avoid the fact that he sees that when his sibling cries or kicks up a fuss, they get attention. He might be struggling to understand that as well…the fact you say he does something then five minutes later her does it again, makes me jump to the conclusion he loves that he can get attention and it doesn’t matter getting into trouble because it’s worth it

Thirdly, how consistent have you been with the ‘approaches’ you’ve used.. are there ones you found he responded to better than others?

Fourthly, that’s really tough. Not only have you a baby, but a little boy whose behaviour is making life really difficult for ye both.

jmcc99_98

Hey, thanks for taking the time to reply.

The behaviour started before his little brother cam along.

We have tried the approaches consistently but for example if we try the positive approach he seems to take it as a licence to play up etc and that just sets us back to square 1.

It is difficult with baby no. 2 as he is a very bad sleeper so tiredness is no doubt playing its part too. We are really just at the end of our tether especially my wife.

Yes he gets plenty of solid quality time with one or both of us

We just don't know where we are going wrong

flutterflye

My son has adhd, so I can tell you from personal experience that what you describe is not trivial!

I don't really know to be honest.

Maybe he is just a bit immature and will calm down and learn what is expected of him with time.

Here are a few things that I find helps alot with my own son;
(I don't know if any are relevant to your situation though)

- Explicitly, concisely, and briefly explaining what is expected of him before each and every time he goes anywhere or does anything. And I also specifically explain what he is not to do.
- If he follows the rules laid out, he gets a small reward, and heaps of praise.
- 2 strikes and your out method if he fails to follow the rules.
(For reward and punishment I use xbox time)
- Routine and structure.
- Countdowns. Whenever he needs to go to the shop/school/visiting/have dinner etc... I say we are leaving to go such and such a place in 1 hour, then 30 minutes, 15, 10, 5, 2.
- Actions and consequence. Rewards and punishment help with this. But also important to teach them to do it on their own. Let them make choices where possible by giving options, and briefly explaining each outcome if relevant. Also natural consequences help. Letting him leave the house without a coat and getting cold.
- Regular short breaks between tasks, some of which involve letting off steam (ie.running around garden), some involve calming down (ie.quiet time reading book)
- Repeatedly explaining rules like interrupting and other conversational/social issues. (When he interrupts, I look him in the eye and say 'Remember what you were going to say, and wait your turn to speak')
- When he shows poor behaviour, I try to not shout. Just use a firm voice to tell him what he has done wrong and what his punishment will be. (Hard not to lose your cool sometimes though!)
- Bonding time. Both with whole family, And one on one. We try to have time just with each child too. My husband may take him out to play football, or I might play a board game with him.
- PRAISE! So important. All the time. Not just for perceived 'good' behaviour, but also for 'normal' behaviour. If you manage to have a whole 15 minute conversation without him interupting- Praise him. And so on.

Social Stories Link - Might be helpful? You can make your own.
(Click one of the 4 pictures on the page to see an example, or google 'social stories')

Sorry, don't know if any of this is helpful.

It's just that regardless of cause of behaviour, the behaviour and outcome is the same, so may respond in kind to similar methods.

LadyMayBelle

Ah okay, so you say it started before his little brother came along, so it sounds like it’s a bit more than his nose being out of joint, if you excuse the humour!

Most of his behaviour though still sounds very ‘attention seeking’; he does things because he can get a reaction, good or bad. Maybe it’s worth looking at the type of quality time spent with him? I’m far from judging here, just plucking at whatever strands pop out

Actually, how is he in school? What have his teachers said about him, academically and socially? With other family members?
How is the routine at home as well; do things/plans change often? Will pop back into this thread later..

jmcc99_98

@flutterflye, Again thanks for taking the effort to reply, all of what you have said I really helpful, on the ADHD issue, my wife and I have discussed this as a possibility, at times he is hyper, running an jumping constantly but at other times he can sit and read, paint, do not jigsaw for hours on end. He doesn't have violent outbursts as such, but will cry very dramatically. I hate diagnosis by google but is there something we should look out for in particular?

@ladymay, I don't think you are judging at all and don't mind if you do because we are unsure if he is the problem or our approach is the problem

At school he seem ok, except every few weeks he seems to have 2or3 bad days where the teacher will be constantly correcting him for acting the clown etc.

Academically he is far ahead of many in the class and this has been noted by the teacher and told to us by the teacher (we are not deluding ourselves on our 'genius' child)

He is incredibly social and constantly wants to engage with others, be they kids or adults, this often gives rise to the constant interrupting, then being told off for it, and then the tear tantrum,

He is a fairly good routine in so far as daily task etc and other lessons we bring him to eg cycling lessons

He will often have at least a half day one on one with either me or my wife over the weekend

I really appreciate your views and or advice

flutterflye

jmcc99_98 wrote: »

@flutterflye, Again thanks for taking the effort to reply, all of what you have said I really helpful, on the ADHD issue, my wife and I have discussed this as a possibility, at times he is hyper, running an jumping constantly but at other times he can sit and read, paint, do not jigsaw for hours on end. He doesn't have violent outbursts as such, but will cry very dramatically. I hate diagnosis by google but is there something we should look out for in particular?

Oh I deliberately didn't suggest that your son may have adhd or similar because that is best left to a professional to look into.

The description you have given of your son's behaviour does sound like adhd.
BUT it also sounds like a myriad of other things too;
Immaturity, insecurity, boredom, dietary reaction, hearing problems, sensory processing problems...... Seriously could go on forever here!

Your son very well may have adhd, but until (and alongside) you seek professional advice, you can try various methods into trying to help him improve his behaviour.

This is what I meant when I said that irregardless of the cause of the behaviour, the behaviour is the same. Therefore methods which apply to helping a child with adhd may also help a child who exhibits similar behaviour due to boredom or something else.

If you do want to know the diagnostic criteria to get an idea if you should seek professional advice on the matter - Here is the DSM IV GUIDE

I'm sure you are well aware of this, but even if all signs point to something (in this case, adhd), it does not mean that it is the case.

Only someone who is qualified and experienced on the matter can tell you, so if you think it may be something medical, neurological, or psychological, go to your gp and they will point you in the right direction.

Edited to add: People with adhd can focus and pay attention to tasks. They just find it difficult if they are over or under stimulated.

Daisy M

When our kids were younger, we devided a reward chart of our own, basically printing out around 5 smiley faces or more for each part of the day, breaking it down into different sections, eg morning/getting ready for school, midmorn, mid day evening and bed time, each sectin covered approx 2hrs. if during the appropriate time behaviour was good the smiley face was cououred in, if they were naughty it was left bare. If a certain amount of faces were couloured on a daily basis (I would usually allow one to be left blank) then a little reward was given, maybe he could pick an activity to do with you, kick a ball around the garden, go for a walk ect or alternatively you could aim for a certain amount of faces to be coloured each week and if he managed this he could pick something to do or somewhere to go, agree on this reward at the start of the week and it will give him something to aim for. I used this on and off over the years I felt that it was an easy way of beating the habit of naughty behaviour and made good behaviour second nature, if that makes any sense. Best of luck.:)

angeldaisy

Reading your post reminded me so much of my son, I posted a similar post earlier this year. My son has just turned 6 and we experienced most of what you are. He is an only child, so no sibling rivalry to blame:D
I just wanted to let you know that in the majority of cases, they do settle down, with us it took several months of hard work.
His teacher worked with us as he was being disruptive in class, like your son, he is very bright and was getting bored. she allowed him to choose his own books to read if he had finished his work, he now gets book from 1st & 2nd class library. she also rewards him for his good behaviour, allows him to be a helper if he is good.
In Feb he was awarded student of the month, and so far we haven't had one negative comment about his behaviour. All the teachers are amazed at his turn around.
I'm not saying he's a saint, he's like most 6yr old boys! But he is a vastly improved child from before.
keep your chin up:D

jmcc99_98

Thanks for all your comments, its good to know we are not entirely alone with this.

I rang his teacher yesterday as my wife was very upset, teacher was very good and said that the problem with my son is that he misbehaves in batches, so it probably looks worse, she said that with him it will be three or four days of silly misbehaviour and attention seeking in a row and then as good as gold for weeks on end.

The battle continues at home though

Not sure what to do

LadyMayBelle

jmcc99_98 wrote: »

I rang his teacher yesterday as my wife was very upset, teacher was very good and said that the problem with my son is that he misbehaves in batches, so it probably looks worse, she said that with him it will be three or four days of silly misbehaviour and attention seeking in a row and then as good as gold for weeks on end.

So there's possibly trigger factors?
Some kids can be very difficult to manage on Mondays after the weekend..

You should also try figure out from the teacher if, when he does misbehave, it is in class (structured time) or outside (unstructured)..that may give you an indication as to whether it is likely he is bored.. I know in your original post you said he can concentrate for ages at times, which makes me think that when he is doing something he likes/is challenging his suffciently/has a decent enough reward he will concentrate..

Any family events or happenings that may have thrown him off balance?

Communication wsie how is he?

How does he react when praised and when he is told off?

Thinking cap on again:)

jmcc99_98

@LadyMayBelle - I asked if there were anything that she thought triggered his boldness and she said that she couldnt really say that there was, but in saying this I didnt really push her on this point, i.e. I didnt ask at what times of the day or what activities etc. This is something I will have to pursue further

No there hasnt been any family events of the likes that have substantially change dhis routine.

Communication wise he is fantastic, he doesnt stop talking in fact and is very open about everything which is great. He can talk for hours on end if he wants and doesnt appear to hold anything back

When he is praised or told off he has the same reaction, it seems to just bounce off him, i.e. tell him he is wonderful and he is likely to say "thanks dad/mum, whats your favourite colour?" and being told off he is the same, "Im really really sorry it wont happen again what time is dinner at"

I think the fact that he desnt seem to care about being told off is the most frustrating thing, it is like he is just humouring us, and thinking oh I'll just let them rant for a while and then I can get back to me own thing. It just doesnt seem to sink in with him

LadyMayBelle

Okay, so it sounds like he is appearing indifferent to praise and also being told off..

There are some benefits to specific praise.. instead of just ‘aren’t you a good boy’, or ‘that’s great work’ try ‘I really liked the way you put your bowl into the sink’ or ‘it makes Mum really happy when you run your little sisters hand like that’..

Also empathising works wonders when done consistently and granted it takes while for everyone to adjust; when he is about to throw that massive wobbly because he can’t get his spoke across, try empathising; ‘I can see that you are about to burst on the spot because you reall,y really want to tell Grandad what a funny day you had but you will just have to hang on for one minute; want to count it down on my watch here?’

I know this things sound mental but they are exaggerated and I know (boy do I know!) It’s not always practical to try this but it has been proven to work; empathising and teaching your child to regulate their emotions and control themselves socially takes time but is a massive benefit to them.

I am wondering, reading back, what sort of consequences are there for bad behaviour...if he is indifferent to them maybe they aren’t effective enough for him? Can he suggest something?

He might need to be more challenged....

I wouldn’t be of the adhd camp but appreciate some people are, and all respect to them. If he has traits however, and you feel he needs an assesment, this site I came across today might be of use, to you and others for managing behaviour:
http://www.adhdchildparenting.com/index.php

MrTsSnickers

If you do want to know the diagnostic criteria to get an idea if you should seek professional advice on the matter - Here is the DSM IV GUIDE

I'm sure you are well aware of this, but even if all signs point to something (in this case, adhd), it does not mean that it is the case.

The DSM IV seems to be purposely vague, I had it front of me a while back while in the company of 3 young boys (play date) all around 6 yo. Each of them had enough of the criteria to qualify as adhd. They were just playing, they were 6 year old boys.

flutterflye

MrTsSnickers wrote: »

The DSM IV seems to be purposely vague, I had it front of me a while back while in the company of 3 young boys (play date) all around 6 yo. Each of them had enough of the criteria to qualify as adhd. They were just playing, they were 6 year old boys.

It is a guideline.

A tool.

If it were the only means used to determine a diagnosis, there would be no need for the psychiatrist, and their years spent doing a medical degree and post grads/phd, and any further training and/or experience they have acquired.

Not to mention the rest of the multi-disciplinary team where relevant, including psychologists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, social workers, nurses, counselors, and is all overseen by medical directors board.

The DSM-IV guide is merely a tool which may highlight any areas of concern.

lucasma

hi

i am in tears here reading your post, we are in the same situation with our son, he is 5 and his little brother 19mths. Its almost as if you are writing about our son, he sounds identical to yours. We have tried EVERYTHING possible to tackle his behavior but we are at our wits end and i am pretty much drained from it all! I wonder if you had any possitive outcome and you wouldn't mind sharing it with us please??:(

January

lucasma - this thread is over 2 years old. I'm closing it, you could post a thread of your own and look for advice that way.