Savings made by the Croke Park Agreement

bobbysands81

dan_d wrote: »

Well let me put it this way.....

On the face of things, nothing appears to have changed, to the ordinary outside observer. Other than cuts in services.

It's truly amazing that they can hail all this expenditure without anything apparently changing. And somewhat embarassing for them - things were obviously ridiculously bad if they could save that much money without some very serious reform.

I would still maintain that it's not a realistic agreement and simply takes the focus off the main issue - too many people and too much pay.

Well let me put in this way.....

You've completely contradicted yourself there. Nothing's changed... yet services have been cut? Make your mind up buddy. Numbers employed are down... pay is down...

People like you will never be happy.

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

What do you all want a big clap for people leaving?? there has been very little change in the ps...and thus far have had just a 7% pay cut to deal with during this recession...600million is a small drop in the ocean...people are hanging on in there by the skin of their teeth ..yet they will be expected to pay more taxes via income, VAT, water meters, property tax...and the social will be expected to take a cut...you guys missed the cuts this year and saved 600 million more through redundancy than anything and you want a pat on the back..Well when you hit the 6billion mark in savings I will applaud you..until I suggest all p.s shut up, get on with there work and continue with the savings and if you cant deliver Mr Kenny sharpen that knife

I've taken a pay cut of circa 20% over the past two years - every cent of that has gone back to the Exchequer to be redistributed to where it's needed the most.

Have you done the same?

If you have... (to paraphrase you) "I will applaud you..until I suggest you shut up, get on with there work and continue with the savings and if you cant deliver then your employer sharpen that knife."

Count Dooku

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Well let me put in this way.....

You've completely contradicted yourself there. Nothing's changed... yet services have been cut? Make your mind up buddy. Numbers employed are down...

Do you mean that retirement of 5,349 PS workers had so big affect, while most of wasters stayed preserved?

bobbysands81

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that retirement of 5,349 PS workers had so big affect, while most of wasters stayed preserved?

Can you rephrase that so it makes sense please?

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I've taken a pay cut of circa 20% over the past two years - every cent of that has gone back to the Exchequer to be redistributed to where it's needed the most.

Have you done the same?

If you have... (to paraphrase you) "I will applaud you..until I suggest you shut up, get on with there work and continue with the savings and if you cant deliver then your employer sharpen that knife."

To date I have been cut by about 32% in my wage since the start of 2009 due to a straight pay cut aswell as having my hours cut...I did not have a pay rise between 2006 and 2009.....I think I am indicitive of the private sector (banks not included they are there own animal) not to mention the poor couple of hundred thousand who had a 100% cut and find themself on the dole.....The cheek to say that the cpa has saved or projected to save 600 million and not take into account that the pension side of things brings this figure to 7 million is a joke....So why should I continue to work when I will be taxed heavier again this year..dole will be cut...But will there be a cut in the ps wage..?? ...put it this way if the ps is not cut and we are over taxed..I will be leaving this country...and more and more people in the private sector are in the same boat...Lets see you stay on your current wage when the private sector who were paying it have left???

Nijmegen

A fairly interesting discussion on the Irish Economy blog points out that the impact these savings have in real terms against the deficit is much lower than the headline rate of €600m.

First of all, we saved €289m but the pensions bill went up by €145m. That's not reflected in the headline 'savings' figure.

Secondly, some of the 'savings' that are being counted in real yoyo's include, for example, the elimination of bank time. While this gives us more paid hours that public servants work, it does not reduce the amount we are paying them.

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

To date I have been cut by about 32% in my wage since the start of 2009 due to a straight pay cut aswell as having my hours cut...I did not have a pay rise between 2006 and 2009.....I think I am indicitive of the private sector (banks not included they are there own animal) not to mention the poor couple of hundred thousand who had a 100% cut and find themself on the dole.....The cheek to say that the cpa has saved or projected to save 600 million and not take into account that the pension side of things brings this figure to 7 million is a joke....So why should I continue to work when I will be taxed heavier again this year..dole will be cut...But will there be a cut in the ps wage..?? ...put it this way if the ps is not cut and we are over taxed..I will be leaving this country...and more and more people in the private sector are in the same boat...Lets see you stay on your current wage when the private sector who were paying it have left???

So basically whilst I've handed over about 20% of my wages back to the Exchequer you've started paying LESS tax?

Time for you to do your bit mate, sounds like you've plenty more to give.

bobbysands81

Nijmegen wrote: »

Secondly, some of the 'savings' that are being counted in real yoyo's include, for example, the elimination of bank time. While this gives us more paid hours that public servants work, it does not reduce the amount we are paying them.

Does it really say that? Can you provide a direct official source explaining that? Would be astounded if that's true.

If you want to talk about pensions let's not forget that the Government takes in more money from public service workers (via pension levy etc...) than it pays out in pensions. The pensions bill includes ALL pensions that the Govt pays out (such as OAP), not just public sector ones.

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So basically whilst I've handed over about 20% of my wages back to the Exchequer you've started paying LESS tax?

Time for you to do your bit mate, sounds like you've plenty more to give.

in real terms yes .....Due to my hours and money being cut.. but but % wise no. The term blood from a stone comes to mind....

time for me to do a bit..will you go and ask my ar$e ..time for Enda to bring the chainsaw down on the monster that is ps pay and pensions...How stupid do you think we look when the german and french tax payers are paying your wage via the borrowings and yet the Irish ps pay and pensions are a lot higher than theirs...Its no wonder the gov is sneared at when they are looking for a drop in the interest rates...

So how long do you think you and your ilk will remain cushioned...and can you explain where the 20% came from ..I hope your not including your contribution to a defined benefit which is the pension levy

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

in real terms yes .....Due to my hours and money being cut.. but but % wise no. The term blood from a stone comes to mind....

So you think it's ok that, in the biggest recession we've ever had, you should pay less tax?

Good lad, look to everyone else to fix things instead of looking to yourself and what you can do.

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote:

My point is that the private sector are continuing to suffer paycuts

Ok. So show us some statistics on the level of paycuts in the private sector. What proportion of people exactly are having paycuts? How much are these paycuts? Has the aggregrate level of private sector pay declined in 2011

fliball123 wrote:

The term blood from a stone comes to mind....

Are you comparing yourself with a stone? Is this in terms of your response to debate or does it reflect your attitude towards contributing to the society in which you live in.?

fliball123 wrote:

I hope your not including your contribution to a defined benefit which is the pension levy

Not this again, can people please confine themselves to facts. The pension levy is a paycut and stated to be so by the Minister.

Cookie_Monster

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So you think it's ok that, in the biggest recession we've ever had, you should pay less tax?

so you want everyone to earn 20-30% less but pay the same tax

phil1nj

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So basically whilst I've handed over about 20% of my wages back to the Exchequer you've started paying LESS tax?

Time for you to do your bit mate, sounds like you've plenty more to give.

He took a pay cut of 32% and no pay rise. You handed back 20%. Hmmmm 32%>20% last time I checked.

sarumite

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So you think it's ok that, in the biggest recession we've ever had, you should pay less tax?

Good lad, look to everyone else to fix things instead of looking to yourself and what you can do.

Ok, now we have gone into the ridiculous territory. I lost my job, I am paying almost 100% less tax than last year (obviosly I still pay Dirt on my dwindling savings and VAT on my reduced purchases etc), yet someone in a tax-protected job is going to sit their and call me out because I am forced into paying less tax now than last year. Pathetic!

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So you think it's ok that, in the biggest recession we've ever had, you should pay less tax?

Good lad, look to everyone else to fix things instead of looking to yourself and what you can do.

Hang on there lets look at what has happened to my wage..using an analogy
Say I was earning 100 a week and paying say 30% in tax - so paying 30 Euros in tax

Now I get my pay cuts and hours cut and I am down 30 quid and the tax has gone up to say 40% so now I am paying 28 quid in tax instead of 30 but % wise I am paying more...

So as I say yes due to my circumstanse I am Euro wise paying less in tax but % wise paying more...and just looking at it I am actually very close to paying the same amount of tax my now decreased wage and will probably be paying more than what I was by the end of the year when the next budget comes out..


as for the looking to fix things...The fact is we are borrowing 18 billion to pay the bills in this country and you think its right that we should ask for more off people who have nothing left to give and to borrow off the IMF/EU at punitive rates which me, my kids and grand kids will have to pay back ..So that the ps can stay in their cloud cuckoo lala land.....

Well heres a fact for ye ... the irish have shown that they dont do protest that well and there form of protest is done with their feet...Have a look at the emigration rate... people are leaving in the 1000s and a decent % of these were tax payers and contributing to your pay...

So I have answered your snearing question now answer mine...How long can we continue to overtax our citizens and over borrow to pay the overinflated PS wage and pensions.as ERSI have shown??

Answers on a post card to Oz, Canada, America or to a destination of your choosing as the sorry part of this conversation is that we back to the "Paddy leaving home again" syndrome

Cian92

fliball123 wrote: »

So how long do you think you and your ilk will remain cushioned...and can you explain where the 20% came from ..I hope your not including your contribution to a defined benefit which is the pension levy

/Sigh

Of course the pension levy is a paycut. It is not in anyway contributing to the pension. You also seem to be jealous of the defined benefit pension which you believe that only the public sector receive. I work part time in a minimum wage ob, if I was to become full time I would have a defined benefit plan.

The public sector have taken more than their fair share of the pain and people like you are still complaining, no need to be so bitter. Some people will not be happy untill they are earning more than anyone in the public sector.

bobbysands81

sarumite wrote: »

Ok, now we have gone into the ridiculous territory. I lost my job, I am paying almost 100% less tax than last year (obviosly I still pay Dirt on my dwindling savings and VAT on my reduced purchases etc), yet someone in a tax-protected job is going to sit their and call me out because I am forced into paying less tax now than last year. Pathetic!

Mate - no truck with you at all. I'm trying to point out the utter absurdity of people's arguments when the issue of public sector pay comes into play.

No matter what we do... it's not enough No matter how many jobs are lost... it's not enough. No matter how much of a pay cut we take... it's not enough. No matter how much longer my day gets... it's not enough. No matter how much extra work I have to take on because of retirements etc... it's not enough.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

Ok. So show us some statistics on the level of paycuts in the private sector. What proportion of people exactly are having paycuts? How much are these paycuts? Has the aggregrate level of private sector pay declined in 2011



Are you comparing yourself with a stone? Is this in terms of your response to debate or does it reflect your attitude towards contributing to the society in which you live in.?



Not this again, can people please confine themselves to facts. The pension levy is a paycut and stated to be so by the Minister.

Well one glaring stat is how many ps employees have been made redundant and what is the figure on the live register at the present as apposed to 2006..I reckon the dole has added at least 1/4 of million and fcuk all of these came from the ps

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

Ok. So show us some statistics on the level of paycuts in the private sector. What proportion of people exactly are having paycuts? How much are these paycuts? Has the aggregrate level of private sector pay declined in 2011



Are you comparing yourself with a stone? Is this in terms of your response to debate or does it reflect your attitude towards contributing to the society in which you live in.?



Not this again, can people please confine themselves to facts. The pension levy is a paycut and stated to be so by the Minister.

No the blood from a stone remark was a debate as to my declining earnings means I am paying less in tax in money terms but more in %...

Does the levy come out of gross or nett wage?

ardmacha

and you think its right that we should ask for more off people who have nothing left to give

Everyone in employment, public and private, has to pay more taxes because some like Sarumite no longer do so.

This "nothing left to give" may be true for a small number of individuals, but is not true for the aggregate economy where tax rates are less than those paid a decade ago.

No the blood from a stone remark was a debate as to my declining earnings means I am paying less in tax in money terms but more in %...

So are many people in the private sector and pretty much everyone in the public service.

Cian92

fliball123 wrote: »

So I have answered your snearing question now answer mine...How long can we continue to overtax our citizens and over borrow to pay the overinflated PS wage and pensions.as ERSI have shown??

Overtaxing our citizens??? As a worker, (not in the public service) I would say we are being undertaxed. That includes the low paid workers, and those on about €30,000 a year.

fliball123

Cian92 wrote: »

/Sigh

Of course the pension levy is a paycut. It is not in anyway contributing to the pension. You also seem to be jealous of the defined benefit pension which you believe that only the public sector receive. I work part time in a minimum wage ob, if I was to become full time I would have a defined benefit plan.

The public sector have taken more than their fair share of the pain and people like you are still complaining, no need to be so bitter. Some people will not be happy untill they are earning more than anyone in the public sector.

Its not jealousy its a joke that the taxpayer is expected to pick up this pension tab when a lot cannot afford one of their own. As I have stated numerous times before I wish the money was their to pay the 18billion we are borrowing but its not..Whos being bitter by the way..I am just stating that over the next 3 years the ps wage is off the table if the cpa is adhered to

Nijmegen

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Does it really say that? Can you provide a direct official source explaining that? Would be astounded if that's true.

Yeah, read the report

Page 21, for example, points out that primary school teachers are working an additional 1.19 million hours, "Based on conservative figures for hourly pay rates, the estimated value of these extra hours is €45m annually."

Great that we're getting the hours, but they're hours we already pay for in their salary. Same salary but more hours worked does not mean a cost saving.

Same formula preducts €43m from post-primary and €15m from higher level.

Page 22 discusses bank time:

Elimination of bank time in the Civil Service: The abolition of this longstanding but anachronistic practice led to an effective increase in working time for those staff still entitled to it (it was abolished for persons appointed after 1st January 2003 and largely only availed of by those on flexitime). This increase is an estimated 3.4 days a year for weekly paid staff and 1.7 days for those paid fortnightly. Based on estimated pay rates, a value of around €5.5m can be attributed to this reform.

Cian92

fliball123 wrote: »

Its not jealousy its a joke that the taxpayer is expected to pick up this pension tab when a lot cannot afford one of their own. As I have stated numerous times before I wish the money was their to pay the 18billion we are borrowing but its not..Whos being bitter by the way..I am just stating that over the next 3 years the ps wage is off the table if the cpa is adhered to

The nature of a defined benefit pension is that you pay into it, as those your employer. If the pension is in deficit the employer has to pick up the tab, even if this means the employer going bust. Same goes for the government. They should have to keep paying out for all current and past employees.

RichardAnd

Nijmegen wrote: »

Yeah, read the report

Page 21, for example, points out that primary school teachers are working an additional 1.19 million hours, "Based on conservative figures for hourly pay rates, the estimated value of these extra hours is €45m annually."

Great that we're getting the hours, but they're hours we already pay for in their salary. Same salary but more hours worked does not mean a cost saving.

Same formula preducts €43m from post-primary and €15m from higher level.

Page 22 discusses bank time:

Well spotted and what you've just said is something I brought up months ago. I'd say alot of savings in this CP deal could be a case of getting more work hours for the same wage cost. That's all well and good but it's not really saving a penny

Nijmegen

Cian92 wrote: »

The nature of a defined benefit pension is that you pay into it, as those your employer. If the pension is in deficit the employer has to pick up the tab, even if this means the employer going bust. Same goes for the government. They should have to keep paying out for all current and past employees.

Question: What happens if a company goes bankrupt and its assets cannot stretch to fund the pension scheme?

Answer: The amount each individual gets is cut.

Question: What happens if the state goes bust?

fliball123

Cian92 wrote: »

Overtaxing our citizens??? As a worker, (not in the public service) I would say we are being undertaxed. That includes the low paid workers, and those on about €30,000 a year.

Well proofs in the pudding there and its not just the income tax..its tax as a whole you need to look at not to mention the new taxes coming in...But if you measure what we get for our taxes the levels of service in this country is disgraceful. So we are paying top rates for sh1tty services.

I mean take a day in the life of your ordanary joe soap

Get up in the morning
Turn on the light (VAT on electricity)
Go into the bathroom, sh1t, shower, shave. (water charges, coming soon and VAT on soap, toothpaste, Toothbrush, hair brush and what ever other produt you use)
Go down to the kitchen cup of tea and breekie ( more VAT on Electricity, Tea bags, corn flakes, milk)
Close your door on your home (propery tax coming soon)
Go to your car( road tax, toll charges)
Put some petrol in (VAT, carbon tax)
Go to work (parking fee, Income tax, USC,PRSI)
Lunch sambos you made the night before (VAT on bread, butter and cucumber or what ever tickles your fancy)
Finish work drive home (same taxes as before)
Turn on the the telly(VAT on electricity and TV license)
Have dinner (more VAT on electricity and what ever is for dinner)
have a sh1t after dinner (vat on tiolet roll)
Go to bed - (mmmm I wonder if they will introduce a sleep tax --- oh no I forgot the VAT on duvet, pillows, bed)

But yeah we are under taxed

fliball123

Cian92 wrote: »

The nature of a defined benefit pension is that you pay into it, as those your employer. If the pension is in deficit the employer has to pick up the tab, even if this means the employer going bust. Same goes for the government. They should have to keep paying out for all current and past employees.

Its something that we can no longer afford I am afraid I mean they had no bother taking money out of private pensions on amounts already paid..why not do the same for the public sector?

kippy

Nijmegen wrote: »

Question: What happens if a company goes bankrupt and its assets cannot stretch to fund the pension scheme?

Answer: The amount each individual gets is cut.

Question: What happens if the state goes bust?

Okay,
As a preamble, I totally agree that the country in in a jock, that the public service will need to take more pay, staff cuts and indeed get more efficient. I also believe that other aspects of government spending will need to be reigned in and further taxation is required whether that be on the individual directly or otherwise.
Now that that is out of the way......

People love to compare the state and a "company"........when, in all realty they have almost NOTHING in common - or should have almost nothing in common.
Companies all too often walk away from their responsibilities and its usually very easy form them to do so - a state however, shouldn't be in this position.
If the state goes bust - there are usually ways and means of supporting it. States don't just dissappear and fall of the face of the earth due to going bust while many companies do.

Now, I am not condoning the State paying the ridiculous pensions that certain sectors of society get, in times of extreme hardship - just making the point that the state has completely different obligations than that of a company (thankfully)

fliball123

kippy wrote: »

Okay,
As a preamble, I totally agree that the country in in a jock, that the public service will need to take more pay, staff cuts and indeed get more efficient. I also believe that other aspects of government spending will need to be reigned in and further taxation is required whether that be on the individual directly or otherwise.
Now that that is out of the way......

People love to compare the state and a "company"........when, in all realty they have almost NOTHING in common - or should have almost nothing in common.
Companies all too often walk away from their responsibilities and its usually very easy form them to do so - a state however, shouldn't be in this position.
If the state goes bust - there are usually ways and means of supporting it. States don't just dissappear and fall of the face of the earth due to going bust while many companies do.

Now, I am not condoning the State paying the ridiculous pensions that certain sectors of society get, in times of extreme hardship - just making the point that the state has completely different obligations than that of a company (thankfully)

That thankfully is really dependent on if your a ps employee or recieving a ps pension or not

Dannyboy83

eigrod wrote: »

The amount of uninformed comments on here is just ridiculous.

Where are you getting 3 years from ? The CPA was signed off in March 2010.

Multiples of these savings were made from 2008 up to the signing of the CPA in March 2010 by pay cuts and pension levies, but I guess that doesn't suit your argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the budget hole was €26 billion around 2008, currently somewhere north of €20 billion..........3 years on.

Many of those "savings" have come from
A) Tax increases/clawbacks
Cuts to essential Capital expenditure, such as infrastructure and road maintenance

If people feel enthused by this, they should stockpile whatever medication they're taking, because they'll need it by the boatload within 2 years.

kippy

fliball123 wrote: »

That thankfully is really dependent on if your a ps employee or recieving a ps pension or not

It's not really. But if that is your standpoint then fair enough.


I should add, that the state isnt that comparable with a company - but that certain parts of the state SHOULD be run like some companies.

fliball123

kippy wrote: »

It's not really. But if that is your standpoint then fair enough.


I should add, that the state isnt that comparable with a company - but that certain parts of the state SHOULD be run like some companies.

its comparable as to income and expenditure...Thats the only comparison that can be drawn as no company could sustain borrowings of 18billion a year.

kippy

fliball123 wrote: »

its comparable as to income and expenditure...Thats the only comparison that can be drawn as no company could sustain borrowings of 18billion a year.

No one is saying that they could. I've made that point umpteen times, about four posts ago.....

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

Its something that we can no longer afford I am afraid I mean they had no bother taking money out of private pensions on amounts already paid..why not do the same for the public sector?

They did and it was between 10 and 15 times more.



So what is the total savings now from the PS since the peak of 2008? How much was saved from the Pension lev, the pay cut and the latest savings.

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

They did and it was between 10 and 15 times more.

Not on money already paid in..Its a levy on the contribution

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

Its something that we can no longer afford I am afraid I mean they had no bother taking money out of private pensions on amounts already paid..why not do the same for the public sector?

The pension levy you refer to was not placed upon public sector workers because the government wish to drive a wedge between them and the private sector. You've just shown that it's working

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

The pension levy you refer to was not placed upon public sector workers because the government wish to drive a wedge between them and the private sector. You've just shown that it's working

The only wedge is the 18billion deficit...This isnt the gov or from drinking the coolaid ...Everyone is suffering out there...and there was me thinking that the gov put the levy in so that the ps actually contributed something to these fabulous pensions???

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

Its not jealousy its a joke that the taxpayer is expected to pick up this pension tab when a lot cannot afford one of their own. As I have stated numerous times before I wish the money was their to pay the 18billion we are borrowing but its not..Whos being bitter by the way..I am just stating that over the next 3 years the ps wage is off the table if the cpa is adhered to

...you are completely missing the point that the Govt are taking in MORE money into the (so called) 'pension pot' than they're paying out.

You are also missing the point that we have NO CHOICE but to pay into pensions... that many of us will lose many thousands of euro on.

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

...you are completely missing the point that the Govt are taking in MORE money into the (so called) 'pension pot' than they're paying out.

Can you show me a link for that please?

Nijmegen

fliball123 wrote: »

Well proofs in the pudding there and its not just the income tax..its tax as a whole you need to look at not to mention the new taxes coming in...But if you measure what we get for our taxes the levels of service in this country is disgraceful. So we are paying top rates for sh1tty services.

But yeah we are under taxed

The efficiency of government spending is poor, I agree. But for a welfare state we are low tax, about 30% of GDP, and income tax is also around 30% vs 60% for Denmark, 50% for Germany, 45%+ for most other European welfare states. All in, including consumption tax like VAT and excise, we are a low tax welfare state. Even during the worst of the economic times gone by we didn't breach much further than 35%.

We paid for our growing state through one off stamp duty tax revenue, not sustainable tax. We either need to cut the size of our state or increase tax, notwithstanding efficiency increases, which are not a €20bn solution; nor is growth alone, putting 12% back into work, when that deficit is over 60% of current tax base.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the budget hole was €26 billion around 2008, currently somewhere north of €20 billion..........3 years on.

It's down under €20bn now, €17.7bn was the target in the last budget, I think it'll be €18.something in actual fact.

Okay,
As a preamble, I totally agree that the country in in a jock, that the public service will need to take more pay, staff cuts and indeed get more efficient. I also believe that other aspects of government spending will need to be reigned in and further taxation is required whether that be on the individual directly or otherwise.

Now that that is out of the way......

People love to compare the state and a "company"........when, in all realty they have almost NOTHING in common - or should have almost nothing in common.

Companies all too often walk away from their responsibilities and its usually very easy form them to do so - a state however, shouldn't be in this position.

If the state goes bust - there are usually ways and means of supporting it. States don't just dissappear and fall of the face of the earth due to going bust while many companies do.

Now, I am not condoning the State paying the ridiculous pensions that certain sectors of society get, in times of extreme hardship - just making the point that the state has completely different obligations than that of a company (thankfully)

The state has a responsibility to all citizens, however. If its obligations to one group harms the rest, everyone needs to take a hit.

Fact is, the Croke Park savings of €289m are actually €144m because you stopped paying those persons salaries, and pay them a pension instead.

Defined pension schemes, sadly, need to take a haircut like the rest of the economy.

sarumite

bobbysands81 wrote: »

...you are completely missing the point that the Govt are taking in MORE money into the (so called) 'pension pot' than they're paying out.

You are also missing the point that we have NO CHOICE but to pay into pensions... that many of us will lose many thousands of euro on.

Both points are little bit of a red herring. Currently more money may be going in because the PS became bloated during the good times, however looking at the long term this would be offset when the current PS workers retire as there will be more people retiring from the ps as entering the ps (as has been stated from the OP). Also, there may be people who lose thousands, there may also be people who make thousands.

I would also argue that the "no choice" aspect is fair argument, although your employers contributions while not excessive are generous and imo do placate some of the negative aspects associated with having no choice.

rodento

Wouldn't call em savings

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0615/health.html

The HSE has said the provision of 24-hour Emergency Department services at St Columcille's Hospital in Loughlinstown is to end

There is always a cost to cuts

kippy

Nijmegen wrote: »

The state has a responsibility to all citizens, however. If its obligations to one group harms the rest, everyone needs to take a hit.

Fact is, the Croke Park savings of €289m are actually €144m because you stopped paying those persons salaries, and pay them a pension instead.

Defined pension schemes, sadly, need to take a haircut like the rest of the economy.

I agree with the summation you make on the CPA deal - it is a lot of it is optics and savings were included that SHOULD have been made anyway - agreement or not.
The issue of "direct" salary costs is fudged somewhat. I would think that the cost of lump sum and pensions in the short term outweighed the actual salary cost savings which were put into the CPA savings document.

Defined pension schemes (in the future) are taking a haircut..........have you not read the details for new entrants to the service and indeed the plans to tax further lump sums, as well as the "pension levy".

Probably not enough for most people in fairness however changes are afoot. The REAL issue is in fact the OAP - now that the NPRF is empty.

Indeed, the state has a responsibility to all citizens, and that must be balanced. One could argue that the state has for too long looked after the needs to the elite in this country at the expense of ALL workers.

tayto lover

kippy wrote: »

I agree with the summation you make on the CPA deal - it is a lot of it is optics and savings were included that SHOULD have been made anyway - agreement or not.
The issue of "direct" salary costs is fudged somewhat. I would think that the cost of lump sum and pensions in the short term outweighed the actual salary cost savings which were put into the CPA savings document.

Defined pension schemes (in the future) are taking a haircut..........have you not read the details for new entrants to the service and indeed the plans to tax further lump sums, as well as the "pension levy".

Probably not enough for most people in fairness however changes are afoot. The REAL issue is in fact the OAP - now that the NPRF is empty.

Indeed, the state has a responsibility to all citizens, and that must be balanced. One could argue that the state has for too long looked after the needs to the elite in this country at the expense of ALL workers.

Were Public Sector pensions not cut already ?

kippy

tayto lover wrote: »

Were Public Sector pensions not cut already ?

They were/are, and major changes are in place for future entrants.

D'Peoples Voice

Nijmegen wrote: »

The efficiency of government spending is poor, I agree. But for a welfare state we are low tax, about 30% of GDP, and income tax is also around 30% vs 60% for Denmark, 50% for Germany, 45%+ for most other European welfare states..

With all due respect, a large part of the reason for our current budget difficulties is because of the use of GDP instead of GNP as a measurement.

For other countries that don't have such a large transfer pricing industry as Ireland, this isn't an issue, but for Ireland, GNP is way below GDP. Unions purposely chose to use GDP when talking about School & health spending. This is because GDP is higher, and thus it helped strengthen their argument when their audience didn't know the difference between GDP and GNP.

Dancing Brave

the croke park agreement is a complete scam. public service unions deciding to work in a more efficient and cohesive manner, after recieving payrise after payrise under berties regime for being the most hardworking and efficient public sector in the western world.(not). you cannot expect a worker of any description to unemploy themself, therfore the job of finding improvements, and savings, must be done by another source. and it is fair to assume that the only people dispassionate and qualified enough for the task are the I.M.F. it would not be pretty, but at least we could then move to the social welfare budget without fear or favour.

kippy

Dancing Brave wrote: »

the croke park agreement is a complete scam. public service unions deciding to work in a more efficient and cohesive manner, after recieving payrise after payrise under berties regime for being the most hardworking and efficient public sector in the western world.(not). you cannot expect a worker of any description to unemploy themself, therfore the job of finding improvements, and savings, must be done by another source. and it is fair to assume that the only people dispassionate and qualified enough for the task are the I.M.F. it would not be pretty, but at least we could then move to the social welfare budget without fear or favour.

The way you've spoken there, you'd swear the IMF weren't involved in our country already.......

tayto lover

Dancing Brave wrote: »

the croke park agreement is a complete scam. public service unions deciding to work in a more efficient and cohesive manner, after recieving payrise after payrise under berties regime for being the most hardworking and efficient public sector in the western world.(not). you cannot expect a worker of any description to unemploy themself, therfore the job of finding improvements, and savings, must be done by another source. and it is fair to assume that the only people dispassionate and qualified enough for the task are the I.M.F. it would not be pretty, but at least we could then move to the social welfare budget without fear or favour.

Why not cut wages by 90% and make them work extra hours as well ?
No holidays either.
Sure a happy workforce is a productive workforce.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13772326