Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

djPSB

I hope he scores ten against Arsenal.

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How am I putting unrealistic expectations by expecting him to score some goals? He's 22, not 17. I'm not expecint a Torres like return but he's only scored a handful by Jan then we'd really need to look at bringing in a striker if we want to give us the best chance of 4th.

To be honest he does need to score his fair share this season. I think during the summer a few were saying that if he gets 10 - 15 goals this season in all comps that they would be happy with him.

He needs to do more than that imho as if we simply wanted a 10-15 goal man we already have Kuyt doing that season in season out.

I think Carroll needs to be getting into the 20s, all comps combined, if he plays in the majority of games this season and if he is to be the main striker at the club. But he has plenty of time to do that this season, and at this point I am quite happy to wait for him to hit the net on a regular basis.

I am curious though to hear the opinions of folk who may have watched him a lot before he moved to Liverpool and find out if he was, in their yes, a consistent goal threat or a streaky player before he was a red. Looking at his stats online it is hard to tell that kind of thing with any certainty.

billymitchell

Chucky the tree wrote: »

There. If you can help noodler ou by finding the post where I said we should sell him it would be a great help. Also not sure why you mention having this talk after one game.

Because it is talk after only one game

As for noodler, he doesnt mention anything in the post you quoted about you saying Carroll should be sold

SlickRic

billymitchell wrote: »

Would you not think Suarez, Kuyt or Ngog could play up front?

Suarez starts with Carroll.

Kuyt would be in my starting team, and not Henderson yet.

which leaves N'Gog.

who, in terms of being a leading striker, couldn't take the pressure off, even if all he was asked to do was lift a sponge off the ground.

when i talk striker, i'm talking a proper leading striker who could play second fiddle to Carroll. perhaps a Rodallega type. i don't know of realistic options, but i just don't really trust N'Gog for any stretch of games, do you?!

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How am I putting unrealistic expectations by expecting him to score some goals? He's 22, not 17. I'm not expecint a Torres like return but he's only scored a handful by Jan then we'd really need to look at bringing in a striker if we want to give us the best chance of 4th.

Again just be patient. Whats the big deal about Christmas/January? Give the lad gametime, performaces will follow. He does not deseerve to have this scrutiny put on him after one game in whih he played fairly well and scored a perfectly good goal.

The Chessplayer

flahavaj wrote: »

No when you pay £35m for a 23 yar old you're paying for a decade of football not three months. Rome was not built in a day.

I have to say, this is really naive rubbish.

Carroll was bought to produce right now and I believe there is obviously a good chance he will. However, that doesn't stop me from believing that his purchase for a far too hasty one.

As I said, if you were talking about Sterling I'd agree with you but Carroll was bought to produce now, not later. Fingers crossed he'll do the business.

K-9

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest he does need to score his fair share this season. I think during the summer a few were saying that if he gets 10 - 15 goals this season in all comps that they would be happy with him.

He needs to do more than that imho as if we simply wanted a 10-15 goal man we already have Kuyt doing that season in season out.

I think Carroll needs to be getting into the 20s, all comps combined, if he plays in the majority of games this season and if he is to be the main striker at the club. But he has plenty of time to do that this season, and at this point I am quite happy to wait for him to hit the net on a regular basis.

I am curious though to hear the opinions of folk who may have watched him a lot before he moved to Liverpool and find out if he was, in their yes, a consistent goal threat or a streaky player before he was a red. Looking at his stats online it is hard to tell that kind of thing with any certainty.

My recollection is that he got the vast majority of his goals after Christmas in the Championship. Basically, the vast majority including PL, came in 2010!

billymitchell

SlickRic wrote: »

Suarez starts with Carroll.

Kuyt would be in my starting team, and not Henderson yet.

which leaves N'Gog.

who, in terms of being a leading striker, couldn't take the pressure off, even if all he was asked to do was lift a sponge off the ground.

when i talk striker, i'm talking a proper leading striker who could play second fiddle to Carroll. perhaps a Rodallega type. i don't know of realistic options, but i just don't really trust N'Gog for any stretch of games, do you?!

I agree Carroll should start, thats why we bought him. But if he is having an off period, I cant see any problem in Suarez, Kuyt or Ngog starting up front for a game or two.

I would have Suarez lead the line for an extended period if needs be(say Carroll was out injured), but only if you had another goal scoring threat in the team with him,e.g. Gerard. The other two would just be make shift strikers in my eyes, but can both score on their day.

Chucky the tree

billymitchell wrote: »

Because it is talk after only one game

As for noodler, he doesnt mention anything in the post you quoted about you saying Carroll should be sold

"we should not hold onto" What do you think that means?

flahavaj wrote: »

Again just be patient. Whats the big deal about Christmas/January? Give the lad gametime, performaces will follow. He does not deseerve to have this scrutiny put on him after one game in whih he played fairly well and scored a perfectly good goal.

The scrunity has been on him since he was signed, no idea why people are getting this one game lark from. January will be the next time we can buy so it's the most logical time to buy another striker if he hasn't done well. IF we want to make pushing for 4th then I don't think we can afford to play someone who is underperforming no matter how bright there future is. We did in with Insua and to a lesser extent Lucas in 09 and it was a disaster.

flahavaj

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I have to say, this is really naive rubbish.

Carroll was bought to produce right now and I believe there is obviously a good chance he will. However, that doesn't stop me from believing that his purchase for a far too hasty one.

As I said, if you were talking about Sterling I'd agree with you but Carroll was bought to produce now, not later. Fingers crossed he'll do the business.

But that totally ignores the curve of improvement you shoudl expect from a player of his age/experience. He has only played a half a season in the Pl really before this. he may deliver srtaight away and obviously is more likely to do so than someone at Sterling's age. But any anxiety if he isn't top class straight away should be temered by the fact that players will improve with age and that any 22 year old upon whom a big fee has been spent will most likely experience an icreae in the quality he delivers as time goes on.

He is a raw talent with whom I suspect ye will have to be patient. Sounds to me like he is in for a tough time from certain elements of his clubs so-called support.

billymitchell

Chucky the tree wrote: »

"we should not hold onto" What do you think that means?

I took it to mean that we should have bought a 35m pound player to sit on the bench until he came good, that the player should start banging in goals as soon as he walked in the door of the club.

Granted, the Carroll did sign in January, but it is only one game into the new season, just a bit of calm is all is being asked for because he didnt score in his first game

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

"we should not hold onto" What do you think that means?




The scrunity has been on him since he was signed, no idea why people are getting this one game lark from. January will be the next time we can buy so it's the most logical time to buy another striker if he hasn't done well. IF we want to make pushing for 4th then I don't think we can afford to play someone who is underperforming no matter how bright there future is. We did in with Insua and to a lesser extent Lucas in 09 and it was a disaster.

FFS thats a perfect example of a player who could have been seen to underperform initially in his liverpol career, but was shown patience and given time and has now blossomed into one of your most important players. You couldn't have picked a worse example to back your point up tbh. If ever there was an example of a playerwho benefitted from being shown patience its Lucas. No doubt some of ye will slate Carroll just as much as ye slated Lucas in his early days.:rolleyes:

jesus_thats_gre

flahavaj wrote: »

But Carroll is more than good enough to be starting number 1 and number 2 he has extraordinary scope for improvement if he is given the gametime and experience required to do so.

Cristiano Ronaldo was absolutely infuriating at times in his first couple of seasons and many of us questioned if he would ever be good or consistent enough to be a United player. Thank God Fergie took a ore long term view amd realised the value of putting up with some short term pain while a player makes mistakes for long term gain.

Judge Carroll in a few years' time, not at Christmas.

I hate that it is a United fan teaching Liverpool fans how to have perspective!! Some of the comments here about our players are infuriating. I would expect it from a spoiled 10 year old girl - not forum full of a adult males.

Seems to me when in discussion with mates on carroll, the ones who think he will be a class player are the ones who play at a very high level of football here.

The ones who say he is ****e are mostly barstool fans and casual players. Make of that what you will.

btw I would be the barstool fan and havent really formed an opinion yet.

Luckycharms_74

Cmon guys lets give "Big Andy" a chance. On his day he is unplayable and I would prefer him in our team than against us. He is a beast but he is our beast

Chucky the tree

flahavaj wrote: »

But that totally ignores the curve of improvement you shoudl expect from a player of his age/experience. He has only played a half a season in the Pl really before this. he may deliver srtaight away and obviously is more likely to do so than someone at Sterling's age. But any anxiety if he isn't top class straight away should be temered by the fact that players will improve with age and that any 22 year old upon whom a big fee has been spent will most likely experience an icreae in the quality he delivers as time goes on.

He is a raw talent with whom I suspect ye will have to be patient. Sounds to me like he is in for a tough time from certain elements of his clubs so-called support.

If Kenny doesn't think he's ready yet why buy Downing at 27? Why not not buy N'Zogbia and let him develop along with Carroll who will probably reach that level in two years time?

flahavaj wrote: »

FFS thats a perfect example of a player who could have been seen to underperform initially in his liverpol career, but was shown patience and given time and has now blossomed into one of your most important players. You couldn't have picked a worse example to back your point up tbh. If ever there was an example of a playerwho benefitted from being shown patience its Lucas. No doubt some of ye will slate Carroll just as much as ye slated Lucas in his early days.:rolleyes:

I'm not happy with missing out on Champions league for two years in the attempt of developing players to be honest. Arsenal have done it in an attempt to win titles and look where they are now. Lucas would have developed if he was wasn't asked to perform straight away, would have taken longer but maybe we wouldn't have had at least two seasons without Champions league.

Simone Strong Rave wrote: »

Seems to me when in discussion with mates on carroll, the ones who think he will be a class player are the ones who play at a very high level of football here.

The ones who say he is ****e are mostly barstool fans and casual players. Make of that what you will.

btw I would be the barstool fan and havent really formed an opinion yet.

Like the high level Jamie Redknapp played at?

The Recliner

Sometimes when reading this forum I can feel my IQ dropping :rolleyes:

FFS Carroll will be fine over the course of the season, stop getting your knickers in a twist after 1 game

Glico Man

flahavaj wrote: »

FFS thats a perfect example of a player who could have been seen to underperform initially in his liverpol career, but was shown patience and given time and has now blossomed into one of your most important players. You couldn't have picked a worse example to back your point up tbh. If ever there was an example of a playerwho benefitted from being shown patience its Lucas. No doubt some of ye will slate Carroll just as much as ye slated Lucas in his early days.:rolleyes:

Must be something very wrong being said when a Corkman agrees with Waterford folk , but you've hit the nail on the head. Lucas was lambasted almost from the first moment he took to the pitch. Replacing our captain with this unknown fella was met with bemusement. And what's worse is that he could so easily have gone on to become a hero had Phil Neville's hand not stopped him from scoring. But it went the other way. So far in fact that he was booed by the clubs "supporters" when he was coming on as a sub and cheered when he was subbed. Sickened me to the very core if I'm honest that a young lad, my age at the time (20), in a new country, barely able to speak the language was being booed by his own team's fans.

Through consistently playing and getting his mistakes out of his game he has gone on to prove the doubters (most of them anyway) very wrong. It took time, but some of us were prepared to wait. Carroll could well be in the same boat but I'd be confident of him coming good. He clearly has the attributes and qualities to be a very good striker. Unfortunately, a few of supporters still think and want success to be instant.

NukaCola

I'm embaressed for you Chucky

Chucky the tree

NukaCola wrote: »

I'm embaressed for you Chucky

From reading most of your opinions on football I actually thing that's a compliment.

Speak Now

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest he does need to score his fair share this season. I think during the summer a few were saying that if he gets 10 - 15 goals this season in all comps that they would be happy with him.

He needs to do more than that imho as if we simply wanted a 10-15 goal man we already have Kuyt doing that season in season out.

I think Carroll needs to be getting into the 20s, all comps combined, if he plays in the majority of games this season and if he is to be the main striker at the club. But he has plenty of time to do that this season, and at this point I am quite happy to wait for him to hit the net on a regular basis.

I am curious though to hear the opinions of folk who may have watched him a lot before he moved to Liverpool and find out if he was, in their yes, a consistent goal threat or a streaky player before he was a red. Looking at his stats online it is hard to tell that kind of thing with any certainty.

I think he would need to have a phenomenal season to get in the 20's when you consider that there is no European football and he is unlikely to be play in the early stages of the domestic cups. In last 7/8 seasons only Torres/Gerrard would have achieved 20+. I'll be expecting Saurez to achieve it though and if Carroll got between 12/15 i'd be delighted with him.

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If Kenny doesn't think he's ready yet why buy Downing at 27? Why not not buy N'Zogbia and let him develop along with Carroll who will probably reach that level in two years time?

I dpn't know what Kenny thinks. All I'm saying is if he doesn't peform immediately don't give up on him, players often improve over time as they gain experience. At 22, there is vast scope for potential in Carroll, especially given the raw materials currently at his diposal.

I'm not sure Downing has to do with it tbh, I have no idea why he was signed over N'Zogbia, perhaps he thinks Downing is a better player than N'Zogbia ever will. Perhaps he thinks its good to blend yong er players with more established ones. Perhaps he thinks N'Zogbia is a bad influence in the dressing room. You'd have to ask him though tbh.

I'm not happy with missing out on Champions league for two years in the attempt of developing players to be honest. Arsenal have done it in an attempt to win titles and look where they are now. Lucas would have developed if he was wasn't asked to perform straight away, would have taken longer but maybe we wouldn't have had at least two seasons without Champions league.

If you think taking the time to develop Lucas is the reason your club has slipped out of teh CL plaes then you must have been in a coma around the time those nasty Americans came and raped your club.

Its not as if teams like United and Arsenal haven't had a much more widespread policy of developing young talent than Liverpool the past decade and they've managed to stay in the Top 4 on an almost comnstant basis.

You seem very obsessed with the here and now. Thankfully for you the people runing your club take a more wide ranging view of the team's present and future.

Chucky the tree

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Like the high level Jamie Redknapp played at?

I would take LOI or just under players opinion over a casual player or barstoolers opinion.

K-9

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

I think he would need to have a phenomenal season to get in the 20's when you consider that there is no European football and he is unlikely to be play in the early stages of the domestic cups. In last 7/8 seasons only Torres/Gerrard would have achieved 20+. I'll be expecting Saurez to achieve it though and if Carroll got between 12/15 i'd be delighted with him.

Was thinking that myself. I'd be expecting about 15 PL goals and if we get a few games in the Cups, at least 20 for the season. Anything after that would be fantastic.

woodyg

This is a crazy argument! Perspective is needed on this, he was both to form a partnership one which is still developing and needs time like any relationship. He is a good footballer who will score goals an create chances for his team mates. Give the lad a chance to show why people with far more knowledge and experience in the game believe he's worth the investment in money and time.

Shame arsenal weren't away last night would have upset there preparation more for the weekend.

Dont be at yourself

...has Carroll actually played badly?

NukaCola

Chucky the tree wrote: »

From reading most of your opinions on football I actually thing that's a compliment.

Your welcome to debate anything i've brought up in the past and debate it, i've no problem in backing up my opinions that are in no way over reacts or whingings.....i guess you cant relate to that though...

Kess73

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

I think he would need to have a phenomenal season to get in the 20's when you consider that there is no European football and he is unlikely to be play in the early stages of the domestic cups. In last 7/8 seasons only Torres/Gerrard would have achieved 20+. I'll be expecting Saurez to achieve it though and if Carroll got between 12/15 i'd be delighted with him.

If we get half decent runs in both cups along with him playing as a starter in the league (assuming he does not get unlucky and pick up and injury), then he could realistically be looking at playing over 40 games this season.

I think he will be played from the first game when the FA cup starts in January and would not be surprised to see him start early on in the league cup as well, as that cup could be a good way to get more games under his belt and maybe the chance to rack up some goals against teams from the lower divisions, building up his confidence.

To be honest I am expecting Suarez to be in the 12-15 goals range but to be more involved in terms of assists and secondary assists. Carroll I am expecting to be the main goal threat as a look through his stats for the last few seasons on ESPN show that assists and secondary assists have not been really part of his game in any big way.

If we consider that he had managed to knock in 11 league goals for Newcastle between August and September last season, then I think he is capable of hitting the 20 mark for us over the course of a season in three comps if he gets the right service.

I really do think that he has the physical tools to be a really good goalscorer for Liverpool, and hope that he can get off the mark early enough this season and kick on from there. He showed signs of it against Sunderland.

I am not going to start worrying about him or his form at this early stage though. There is a lot of football to go, and he has plenty of time to show what he can do.

jesus_thats_gre

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

I think he would need to have a phenomenal season to get in the 20's when you consider that there is no European football and he is unlikely to be play in the early stages of the domestic cups. In last 7/8 seasons only Torres/Gerrard would have achieved 20+. I'll be expecting Saurez to achieve it though and if Carroll got between 12/15 i'd be delighted with him.

I will be expecting them to get 35-40 goals and 10-15 assists between them.

They were bought for the potential partnership that they could strike up and they should be judged accordingly.

Kess73

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

...has Carroll actually played badly?

In the one game we have played? No, he did alright.

Leiva

Honestly Carroll was the biggest disappointment for me from last Saturdays game , but christ its only one game ...and the first game of a very long season .

I think people need to look past the £35 million price tag .

He didn't set that price ..all he was asked to do was move and play for Liverpool .

It all down to Andy Carroll's attitude from here on in .
If his commitment is steadfast then we could have a beast of a player in the next couple of years .
A Player that already ticks probably 3/4 of all the boxes needed to be a top player , so its about his personal commitment , hard-work and attitude to get him to be the finished article .

If he starts not been arsed , and his off the field antics outshine his on field performances then he could become a mediocre defence troubling , tall , now-and-again goal scorer .

My disappointment on Saturday was that he didn't show enough movement up front for the last quarter of the game , he didnt specualte enough for a pass or cross
I feared that he may have not been arsed , but he also didnt look 100% fit , so i reckon it was just that .

If people think along the lines of "lets cash in on him now " then they need to remember a few things :
1.)No one will pay anywhere near £35 million for him ..truth, get over it .
2.)Your insane .. he has only played 1 game this season .
3.)If he does meet/reach everyones expectations at another club ..what would you think then?

I hold high hopes for Andy Carroll and in Kennys judgement i trust .

If Andy Carroll is gonna be the player we all hope then he is in the best hands.

flahavaj

Kess73 wrote: »

If we get half decent runs in both cups along with him playing as a starter in the league (assuming he does not get unlucky and pick up and injury), then he could realistically be looking at playing over 40 games this season.

I think he will be played from the first game when the FA cup starts in January and would not be surprised to see him start early on in the league cup as well, as that cup could be a good way to get more games under his belt and maybe the chance to rack up some goals against teams from the lower divisions, building up his confidence.

To be honest I am expecting Suarez to be in the 12-15 goals range but to be more involved in terms of assists and secondary assists. Carroll I am expecting to be the main goal threat as a look through his stats for the last few seasons on ESPN show that assists and secondary assists have not been really part of his game in any big way.

If we consider that he had managed to knock in 11 league goals for Newcastle between August and September last season, then I think he is capable of hitting the 20 mark for us over the course of a season in three comps if he gets the right service.

I really do think that he has the physical tools to be a really good goalscorer for Liverpool, and hope that he can get off the mark early enough this season and kick on from there. He showed signs of it against Sunderland.

I am not going to start worrying about him or his form at this early stage though. There is a lot of football to go, and he has plenty of time to show what he can do.

I'd say if Suarez starts 40 games he'll get 20+ tbh Kess. He will go down as one of the best bargains of recent years tbh. How ye didn't have to fight off competition from all sides to get him is beyond me.

Chucky the tree

flahavaj wrote: »

I dpn't know what Kenny thinks. All I'm saying is if he doesn't peform immediately don't give up on him, players often improve over time as they gain experience. At 22, there is vast scope for potential in Carroll, especially given the raw materials currently at his diposal.

Well I never said we should give up on him immediatly.

flahavaj wrote: »

If you think taking the time to develop Lucas is the reason your club has slipped out of teh CL plaes then you must have been in a coma around the time those nasty Americans came and raped your club.

Its not as if teams like United and Arsenal haven't had a much more widespread policy of developing young talent than Liverpool the past decade and they've managed to stay in the Top 4 on an almost comnstant basis.

You seem very obsessed with the here and now. Thankfully for you the people runing your club take a more wide ranging view of the team's present and future.

So you don't think having Lucas replace Alonso was one of the reasons we struggled badly? We can argue Carroll shouldn't be in that position, but he is. United are far more sensible at developing talent. In the premiership Ronaldo started 14 games in his first season, Anderson started 16, Chico 15, Rafael started 15 last season. I can't remeber the last young player United through in from the off and had him started 25+ games.

Of course I am obsessed with the here and now. Look at what happened to the club without CL for two years, look at the players we lost. I dread to think what will happen if we go another two years with CL.

NukaCola

mixednuts wrote: »

Honestly Carroll was the biggest disappointment for me from last Saturdays game , but christ its only one game ...and the first game of a very long season .

I think people need to look past the £35 million price tag .

He didn't set that price ..all he was asked to do was move and play for Liverpool .

It all down to Andy Carroll's attitude from here on in .
If his commitment is steadfast then we could have a beast of a player in the next couple of years .
A Player that already ticks probably 3/4 of all the boxes needed to be a top player , so its about his personal commitment , hard-work and attitude to get him to be the finished article .

If he starts not been arsed , and his off the field antics outshine his on field performances then he could become a mediocre defence troubling , tall , now-and-again goal scorer .

My disappointment on Saturday was that he didn't show enough movement up front for the last quarter of the game , he didnt specualte enough for a pass or cross
I feared that he may have not been arsed , but he also didnt look 100% fit , so i reckon it was just that .

If people think along the lines of "lets cash in on him now " then they need to remember a few things :
1.)No one will pay anywhere near £35 million for him ..truth, get over it .
2.)Your insane .. he has only played 1 game this season .
3.)If he does meet/reach everyones expectations at another club ..what would you think then?

I hold high hopes for Andy Carroll and in Kennys judgement i trust .

If Andy Carroll is gonna be the player we all hope then he is in the best hands.

If he's not scoring week in week out whats the point in playing him!....... thats the official line isn't it chuck? :rolleyes:

Leiva

flahavaj wrote: »

I'd say if Suarez starts 40 games he'll get 20+ tbh Kess. He will go down as one of the best bargains of recent years tbh. How ye didn't have to fight off competition from all sides to get him is beyond me.

I fear for Suarez after Christmas if we keep playing him every game .

He may be alright now but its the later part of the season that fatigue and heart rates suffer from a summer tournament .

Chucky the tree

If everyone is happy letting talent develop by playing them why is there clamour for a new centre back? Why not go with Wilson or Kelly in there and let them develop?

Dont be at yourself

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

...has Carroll actually played badly?

No, but he didn't get a hatrick.

Cardinal sin.

Kess73

flahavaj wrote: »

I'd say if Suarez starts 40 games he'll get 20+ tbh Kess. He will go down as one of the best bargains of recent years tbh. How ye didn't have to fight off competition from all sides to get him is beyond me.

If he gets 20+ he will have been awesome all season. He is well capable of that kind of figure, but I just think his total will be a bit lower but that his assist/secondary assist rate will be high.

I think barring injury, he is as close to a sure thing as one can get in his position, and at 24 he is only going to get better.


I think JTG's comment of expecting 35 to 40 goals between Suarez and Carroll is realistic.

I just think it will be something like Carroll 20 and Suarez 15, but some might think it will be the other way around.

It is not like I will be gutted if it turns out Carroll gets 15 and Suarez gets 20 though, it is just that I have a gut feeling that Carroll will be our main goalscorer. When there was a poll in the forum before the season started as to who would be top scorer, I went for Carroll back then. I know I have not seen a lot of him play other than in red, but I cannot shake the feeling that with his head straight he could be really good at Liverpool.

NukaCola

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If everyone is happy letting talent develop by playing them why is there clamour for a new centre back? Why not go with Wilson or Kelly in there and let them develop?

Do you actually watch these players play....and i'm being absolutely serious here......because if you cant see the differences in what your comparing then your completely lost....

Leiva

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If everyone is happy letting talent develop by playing them why is there clamour for a new centre back? Why not go with Wilson or Kelly in there and let them develop?

Chucky you have a point , but when it comes to Carroll the more we have him on the park , hassling , scoring then the quicker we see results .

Also dont forget the players we have purchased (specifically or not ) that will assist Carroll in getting a bag of goals .
That cant be said for the likes of Kelly etc .

Kess73

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If everyone is happy letting talent develop by playing them why is there clamour for a new centre back? Why not go with Wilson or Kelly in there and let them develop?

Maybe because it is harder to win a game with a weak or developing defence than it is to win a game with a weak or developing attack?

Chucky the tree

NukaCola wrote: »

Do you actually watch these players play....and i'm being absolutely serious here......because if you cant see the differences in what your comparing then your completely lost....

I have watch Kelly play plenty of times, he's done very well. So if Carroll has scored 3 goals by January your opinion will have in no way changed about him?

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well I never said we should give up on him immediatly.

No but you seem to want him to start performing fairly quickly.

So you don't think having Lucas replace Alonso was one of the reasons we struggled badly? We can argue Carroll shouldn't be in that position, but he is.

There were far bigger reasons that ye slipped as aclub than simply having a young lad inmidfield playing a lot of games. It may have been one of the symptoms of what was going on but the way you linked his presence in your midfield with missing out on the CL earlier is ludicrous.

United are far more sensible at developing talent. In the premiership Ronaldo started 14 games in his first season, Anderson started 16, Chico 15, Rafael started 15 last season. I can't remeber the last young player United through in from the off and had him started 25+ games.

The examples you have given were all teenagers. By the time they reached Carroll's age they were playing ana wful lot. Cleverley this season might be one that goes straight in, but at 22 thats fine. We have thrown de Gae into our goals (and are having a similar debate with some of our more excitabel fans about the merits of giving youth a chance!) Chico was first choice by the end of the season. The point is when those lads were put into the team, they made mistakes (Rafael vs bayern getting sent off) - some people moaned that throwing kids into big games was a bad idea, but the sensible people pointed to the bigger picture and the long term gain to be had from them making such mistakes.

Of course I am obsessed with the here and now. Look at what happened to the club without CL for two years, look at the players we lost. I dread to think what will happen if we go another two years with CL.

But playing young guys in certain positions wn't stop ye getting into the CL. Its all well and good signing all established layers thinking they'll guarantee a top 4 finish, bu they might not and they also require replacing more often and disrupts the team with a hiher turnover of players. ye signed Meireles last season but next year he'll be heading for 30 and will soone need replacing again. Buying has adonside but the long term benefits are many. Ye are ensuring ye will be challenging in 5-6 years' time as well as this season and are guaranteeing the team will improve year on year even if ye don'y necessarily spend big each Summer.

murpho999

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well I never said we should give up on him immediatly.





So you don't think having Lucas replace Alonso was one of the reasons we struggled badly? We can argue Carroll shouldn't be in that position, but he is. United are far more sensible at developing talent. In the premiership Ronaldo started 14 games in his first season, Anderson started 16, Chico 15, Rafael started 15 last season. I can't remeber the last young player United through in from the off and had him started 25+ games.

Of course I am obsessed with the here and now. Look at what happened to the club without CL for two years, look at the players we lost. I dread to think what will happen if we go another two years with CL.

Well what happened without CL? We lost Torres & Mascherano. I think Masch would have gone anyway?
The club in my opinion has rebuilt excellently and I won't judge them till the season is over.

Carroll will come good, you've been criticising him from day one but I think he deserves a chance.

Remember some players slot straight in and play to a high lever (like Suarez) but some just take a bit longer. Carroll is still building up his Premiership match fitness and sharpness and if gets the right service then I'm sure he'll be an asset to us.

Reading your posts it reads to me like you want him to fail so that you can come here and gloat rather than see the best for the team.

Considering we are not in Europe and we are not yet sure how serious the Carling Cup will be taken by Kenny, I think anything over 15 goals will be a decent return for Caroll.

If he and Suarez could hit 30 between them it will a very good return for us tbh.

Berbatov & Tevez were the top scorers last year on 20 goals.

NukaCola

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I have watch Kelly play plenty of times, he's done very well. So if Carroll has scored 3 goals by January your opinion will have in no way changed about him?

What makes you think he wont score more though? Your worrying about things that may/may not happen.....IMO he'll have scored a good few...he's looking good, he needs more match time thats all...

Leiva

rarnes1 wrote: »

If he and Suarez could hit 30 between them it will a very good return for us tbh.

Way too low if you expect us getting top 4 .

Chucky the tree

mixednuts wrote: »

Chucky you have a point , but when it comes to Carroll the more we have him on the park , hassling , scoring then the quicker we see results .

Also dont forget the players we have purchased (specifically or not ) that will assist Carroll in getting a bag of goals .
That cant be said for the likes of Kelly etc .

This is kind of my point. We've spend £19m on on 27 year old Downing specially to help Carroll score now, I don't think we bought Downing to provide crosses for him to score from in 2 years time when he is fully developed. If Carroll is scoring from delieveries from Adam and Downing then what do we do? Keep playing him and put even more pressure on him or buy in another striker who he can rotate with?

Kess73 wrote: »

Maybe because it is harder to win a game with a weak or developing defence than it is to win a game with a weak or developing attack?

Fair point. What about Henderson then? Plenty of people have said he should be dropped for Kuyt and starting him agaisnt Sunderland was a mistake. Why isn't he game the same treatment Carroll is?

NukaCola wrote: »

What makes you think he wont score more though? Your worrying about things that may/may not happen.....IMO he'll have scored a good few...he's looking good, he needs more match time thats all...

I never said I don't think he will score. This all came about because cheeseplayer said we should be able to judge him by christmas, Flah said bought him for the next decade abd should give him a few years of underperforming and I disagreed with that and my point is if Carroll isn't performing well by January then we need to look at another striker(not as a replacement, but as a help to him really). I've never said Carroll won't score or isn't good enough.

flahavaj

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If everyone is happy letting talent develop by playing them why is there clamour for a new centre back? Why not go with Wilson or Kelly in there and let them develop?

The point is that if ye did give Kelly a chance at CB and he did make a few mistakes anyone giving him a hard time for doing so would be very harsh given that he needs time to settle in and develop.

Leiva

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This is kind of my point. We've spend £19m on on 27 year old Downing specially to help Carroll score now, I don't think we bought Downing to provide crosses for him to score from in 2 years time when he is fully developed. l

You dont wake up one morning and say " right im developed now , no need for Downing , Enrique , Adam etc "

Those players are purchased to improve the squad .

The more quality supply we have the more goals we score ..and thats not specific to any LFC player /striker .

We are a work in progress but a player like Carroll can speed up the process more so than anyone else , the more we win the more it becomes a habit ...to win we need gaols . ...thats my opinion in anyways