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Computer Science Degrees

Neodymium

Hi everyone,

I'm just wondering what would be the best computer science degree here in Ireland. I have heard of alot of mixed reviews about
the computer science degrees from the colleges here and I'm not sure which one to pick while trying to narrow my degree choices down.

I am 16 at the moment and going into sixth year next year. I love programming having taught myself XHTML, CSS and Javascript
through books and online tutorials and I am learning PHP and MySQL at the moment
(I'm in the middle of building my own website working all hours into the night.)

I know alot of people choose to do computer science because of the low points level or they think that they would like the course
because they spend alot of time on facebook or playing games which is why alot of people fail and drop out of computer science.
This is not me I am genuinely interested in computers, I know it will be tough at times but I would be extremely willing to work at it
and would love to work in the IT industry some day.

I'm from cork myself and have been to the new UCC computer science building and it looks amazing. I have heard some mixed reviews
of UCC's computer science degree some people seem to love it while others say that it is unorganised and currently badly funded.
It seems that java is the main language that is thought in the Irish colleges but is there much C++ or C considering they are both
widely used programming languages. Also is there much web development in these computer science courses. I know UCC have some
web-development but their website is very poor and they don't give away too much information.

Basically what I am asking is there anyone that has done or is doing a Computer Science degree in any Irish college or university
that could share their thoughts about what they think of their degree.
especially:
• What programming languages are taught and to what extent.
• How good are the facilities
• How good are the lecturers
• How up to date the degree is
• How is the degree recognised both domestically and internationally.

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lemon_remon

I'm in CS first year UCC and it's pretty good. Some modules are a bit shíte but you'll find that with any course. In regards to the languages thought, in first year the only programming language we learned was PHP along with some low level assembly code (not actual real assembly code it was for a microprocessor simulator). You learn PHP (leaving out object orientated php) and there is also a module in MySQL which you eventually end up using as a database back end for your PHP scripts. The programming module in first year also teaches you XHTML (the lecture said he would teach HTML5 instead next year) and CSS. There is no JavaScript in first year. I thought first year was great and I learned a lot but I imagine already knowing most of these languages might make first year a bit dull for you.

In regards to later years, I believe, as you said, the focus is on Java. I don't think C++ is formally thought, if you want that then I believe they have a module on it in the maths degree. I don't think this is really any great loss though because Java is the programming language of today with C++ only remaining dominant in things like games development (even though some major games like Minecraft were written in Java) and system admin stuff. If you want to learn C++ I'm sure you wouldn't have too many problems with having known Java already.

I couldn't fault the facilities at all, as I'm sure you know after seeing it. The computer rooms are spectacular. All machines are equipped with a 22" monitor which is lovely for the HTML/CSS stuff you'll be doing. Software is mostly open source stuff, you won't find any Photoshop, Dreamweaver etc. All the web development we did in first was done on Notepad++.

No idea how prestigious the degree is. I imagine most degrees in Ireland are treated pretty much the same. I've heard some criticism that our degrees are a bit easier than what is expected internationally (blame the CAO).

When deciding colleges the main factor for me would be social. You don't want to have a shítty time in college, it's supposed to be the best time of your life! Choose a college where you'll have friends (because you're from Cork I assume UCC). I'm not saying you couldn't make friends if you went to a college somewhere else but why go to the hassle of that with the money problems and stuff associated. You'll meet new people doing the degree anyway.

That's my 2 cents anyway, hope it helps as I was in the same situation last year. You have plenty of time to decide anyway so don't rush into a decision.

aidan_walsh

Moved.

Joneser

Just finished my BSc. in Computer Science at UCD and I loved the place. Great course and was recently voted the number 1 college for computer science in Ireland and top 30 in Europe. They are in the middle of re-vamping and improving everything, the year just gone was the first run of a new 1st year structure, this year will be the first of the new second year and so on. The only downside is that you need to have your own laptop which can be a struggle for some people on a tight budget. Here is a link to some more concise information: http://www.csi.ucd.ie/content/prospective-students

The programming language being used most during my degree was Java but with the changes to the course it looks like there is more of a focus being placed on C. There are modules that involve different langauges too, it just depends on whether you want to pick them or not

Also you can propose your own project in final year and this can encompase anything you like and any programming languages you think are suitable.

Most of the lecturers are really nice, and are easily approachable either after lectures as well as if you want to just drop up to their office they are able to make time for you and help you with any issues you are having.

Outside of the course the college is huge with tons of societies and social events and they are in the middle of building the new student centre which will have a full size swimming pool, gym, cinema and a number of others.

No matter where you decide to go though, make sure you try and do everything you can to get the most out of it. Join a couple of societies, go to events, and later in your degree I recommend trying to become a student amabassador or doing some work for the college in a way that's related to the degree such as web design or any internships.

Sparks

I'm not sure that anyone can answer the question definitively. People will have done a degree in one institute or another, and some will have had good experiences with a particular institute while others will have had bad experiences with the same institute - no matter what institute it is. You'd have to find someone who'd studied at all of them (or taught in all of them) to get an objective answer.

Perhaps the most pragmatic question is which will help you get a job most easily after graduation - in which case UL has an excellent record, UCD has a good reputation and TCD has a reputation of producing more academically minded graduates than industrially minded ones. All of which is horse biscuits anyway, but that's reputations for you.

To be honest, it only matters for the first job or two anyway; after that, your portfolio is the real reference point.

And joneser's point is very, very, very correct - if you go to any college and assiduously follow the curriculum strictly, odds are that you'll get a high level degree, and have utterly wasted the opportunity and crippled your job chances all in one go. Employers have enough cop-on (the good ones at least) to know that someone who's aced all the courses in college is still not fully trained; so while "1st in your class" is still going to impress, "1st in your class and did absolutely nothing that wasn't on the cirriculum" is not going to impress as much as "got an honours degree and ran a sports club, did extra-cirricular projects like X, Y and Z, won this competition, built this project in spare time". Employers want someone who's demonstrated that they can do the core stuff but who will also do extra stuff, who shows that they're not just a one-skill graduate.

stevenmu

I'd also suggest that you don't take the language into consideration**. A good course will be focused on teaching you good principles and practices and giving you a solid grounding in the theory, as well as giving you the tools you need to learn yourself independantly.

(within reason, you don't want to do everything in some out of date language and then be pigeon holed into it)

amen

I know alot of people choose to do computer science because of the low points level

when I was in college a long time ago the points for computer science were actually very high.

You should really go along to the open days for colleges you thinking of and meet the faculty and students. Best way to get a feel.

Computer Science isn't about learning the current languages that are in favour but about learning the core concepts and ideas. These can then be applied to any language which after all is just syntax and convention.

Be prepared for a lot of maths (but no more then other science/physics/engineering courses).

If you want to learn C++ I'm sure you wouldn't have too many problems with having known Java already

you would be surprised. You need to deal with memory allocation, garbage collection etc all thinks that Java handles automatically.

Of course you just do a degree in Electronic Engineering or maybe Physics(I did) and we did a fair bit of programming, assembly, C, C++, some basic html etc and I've been working in the IT industry for nearly 20 years.

I'll get flammed for this but Programming is really just an ability to use a tool such as soldering iron, shovel etc to make something that someone else can use.

You may be better have a degree in Engineering/Science which allows you to be employed in a variety of fields and maybe do a Master in Comp Sci.

Stuxnet

I'm just finished first year in UL doing LM051 Comp Sys its called, Computer Science & Information Systems. I'm 31 and didn't do a leaving cert but have a passion for computers like yourself, always did, from your age and younger !! Im sorry I didnt do it when I was younger ! but i became a chippy instead !!

Anyhow as far as UL goes, awesome spot, the lecturer's are as sound as you'll meet, lots of maths involved, scared me at first as I'd no LC, but I got into the swing of it after a while. The maths I found actually got easier as the year progressed. We did computer maths in sem 1 and discrete maths in sem 2. Java language was the main focus of our software development and comp sci modules, did some LISP and other stuff, just to touch the bases. Did alot of computer org aswell, digital circuitry, assembly and machine code etc..

If your hardcore computer nerd this is the degree for you !! and in third year from May - December you get to do a paid co-op in a software development company somewhere......

http://www.ul.ie/courses/ComputerSystems.shtml

Neodymium

Thanks to everyone for the very detailed responses.

scotty_irish

as amen said, you may be better off doing eng/science and then doing a masters. an eng/science course will equip you with many skills that pure computer science won't. like proper maths. get good at maths/logic and writing complicated algorithms becomes a lot easier. the engineers were running rings around the computer science people in my MSc! I originally studied civil eng in galway, did an MSc in High Performance Computing in Edinburgh. programming is easy enough to pick up, as you know yourself. however, being a good programmer is not so easy. the fact that you're showing such an interest so young is brilliant, making it very likely that you'll succeed whichever road you go down!good luck!

Stuxnet

^ + 1

also as mentioned above extra curricular stuff is a bonus, will look the shizz on your cv, eg, join an open-source project, be it just testing builds at your level now, it all looks good, and get into linux as early as you can, I know i'm alot older then the lads in my class, but when i mentioned linux and open source they looked at me like Id ten heads, learn ubuntu, join the ubuntu community, it'll fast become a hobby and not a chore ! i do bug triaging for ubuntu in my spare time, its very rewarding to be part of a large community,

censuspro

I was also considering doing an this evening degree at night in Trinity. Instead, I decided to do this FAS course before I jumping into a a four year degree. More details on the FAS diploma here

Does anyone have any experience on either theFAS diploma or the degree in Trinity???

Neodymium

scotty_irish wrote: »

as amen said, you may be better off doing eng/science and then doing a masters. an eng/science course will equip you with many skills that pure computer science won't. like proper maths. get good at maths/logic and writing complicated algorithms becomes a lot easier. the engineers were running rings around the computer science people in my MSc! I originally studied civil eng in galway, did an MSc in High Performance Computing in Edinburgh. programming is easy enough to pick up, as you know yourself. however, being a good programmer is not so easy. the fact that you're showing such an interest so young is brilliant, making it very likely that you'll succeed whichever road you go down!good luck!

I had considered doing an engineering degree aswell but lately I've been interested in doing a computer science degree. Would engineering give you a better rounding in the core maths and logic which you can then apply to other things later on? Do you think it would be a good idea to do something like Electronic engineering or Computer engineering from what I have heard these have quite alot of maths, maybe then later on doing a masters in computer science?

Thanks again to everyone.

fasty

I did an Engineering degree and ended up working in software development. I originally wanted to be a structural engineer but ended up focussing on computing. I didn't do a masters or PHD, it was never an issue applying for jobs other than having to study a lot of computer science stuff in my own time.

Engineering is quite maths heavy but for me, that was always a good thing!

retalivity

i done computer science in trinity, graduated in the mid 00's. there was lots of theory and and it touched on everything within computers, without specifying really in one. By the end of it, i had experience of java, c++, and a ****load more without really being proficient in any. ended up getting a job without much from the degree at all and doing something completely different that I rarely encountered during uni....c'est la vie I suppose

Civilian_Target

Thats cool OP. When I was going through transition year in 2000, I took part in the .com boom - in a similar way to you, producing websites for local businesses - I learnt HTML and Javascript in a time when tools were much simpler. I think my situation is similar to yours.

After the LC I did Physics and Computer Science in Queens University Belfast for my undergraduate degree and found the computer science aspect tedious, unchallenging (too much emphaisis on nonsense regurgitation, not enough on creative programming) and shallow. On the other hand, I really enjoyed the experimental and mathematical side of physics... we also covered VB and Fortran in Physics but never touched them in Computer Science!

After I finished, I got a specialist masters in computing in the UK to put me on a good foot in the IT industry, but the analysis, experimental and street-fighting mathematical skills I picked up in physics class is a major differentiating factor between myself and many of my colleagues.

Naikon

Civilian_Target wrote: »

Thats cool OP. When I was going through transition year in 2000, I took part in the .com boom - in a similar way to you, producing websites for local businesses - I learnt HTML and Javascript in a time when tools were much simpler. I think my situation is similar to yours.

After the LC I did Physics and Computer Science in Queens University Belfast for my undergraduate degree and found the computer science aspect tedious, unchallenging (too much emphaisis on nonsense regurgitation, not enough on creative programming) and shallow. On the other hand, I really enjoyed the experimental and mathematical side of physics... we also covered VB and Fortran in Physics but never touched them in Computer Science!

After I finished, I got a specialist masters in computing in the UK to put me on a good foot in the IT industry, but the analysis, experimental and street-fighting mathematical skills I picked up in physics class is a major differentiating factor between myself and many of my colleagues.

This. I regret not choosing Applied Physics when I had the chance. I liked the computing bits and subjects like Maths. Software "Engineering" and the like are mostly pure crap. Computing/Computer Science as a 4 year course is overkill. You can program without a CS degree. DON'T DO IT!

ITguy2

amen wrote: »

You may be better have a degree in Engineering/Science which allows you to be employed in a variety of fields and maybe do a Master in Comp Sci.

Many Engineering Departments also allow CS undergrad students to do Masters in Engineering degrees, so it is no big deal really. The OP should choose Computer Science if he/ she likes the course, and forget about jobs/ industry.

BostonB

If I was looking at college again, I wouldn't restrict myself to just Ireland.

Find out what the best graduates are doing internationally and find the college thats closest to achieving that standard, that you can get to.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Neodymium wrote: »

I know alot of people choose to do computer science because of the low points level or they think that they would like the course
because they spend alot of time on facebook or playing games which is why alot of people fail and drop out of computer science

Nail on the head, its mainly because of the latter. 10 years ago points were high

some colleges tend to cover the "science" end of computer science, as in some Universities cover electronics, which is pretty cool. Where as some other colleges, mainly (but not only) the Institute of Technologies are more Industry minded when setting the syllabus for their courses. I studied at Sligo IT, in 2004 they revamped their computing courses to focus on Microsoft technologies, and Athlone IT have close links with ericsson in athlone. A lot of graduates of AIT get their first job in ericsson.
I dont think there is an answer to your question OP about the best course. Each one has pros and cons!

@Sparks
Great post

lemon_remon wrote: »

If you want to learn C++ I'm sure you wouldn't have too many problems with having known Java already.

Disagree, learning about pointers and memroy mgmt is tricky after having the garbage collector do it all for you! Going from C++ to Java is a breeze

tehjimmeh

Naikon wrote: »

This. I regret not choosing Applied Physics when I had the chance. I liked the computing bits and subjects like Maths. Software "Engineering" and the like are mostly pure crap. Computing/Computer Science as a 4 year course is overkill. You can program without a CS degree. DON'T DO IT!

I disagree. CS is more than just programming. And programming is a multi-faceted skill.

Granted, there were a number of crappy, useless and far too slow moving classes I had to take, but certainly I don't feel that 4 years were overkill.

It probably depends on the course, and how well you apply yourself to the good bits of it. I imagine a 4 year course grooming you for industry would be awful.

Naikon

tehjimmeh wrote: »

I disagree. CS is more than just programming. And programming is a multi-faceted skill.

Granted, there were a number of crappy, useless and far too slow moving classes I had to take, but certainly I don't feel that 4 years were overkill.

It probably depends on the course, and how well you apply yourself to the good bits of it. I imagine a 4 year course grooming you for industry would be awful.

You could argue CS is just a branch of Applied Maths. The problem is that today you can get a degree in "Cloud Computing". Mixing practical stuff with little theory is a recipe for disaster. It's my own opinion, but I would not have chosen a CS course if I had the knowledge I had back then. Too many winger courses imo. Someone doing a Physics course is more than qualified to pick up the computing bits in no time. I still think 4 years of nothing but CS is overkill. Very boring too.

tehjimmeh

Naikon wrote: »

You could argue CS is just a branch of Applied Maths.

It is in some ways and isn't in others. Massively broad discipline.

Naikon wrote: »

The problem is that today you can get a degree in "Cloud Computing". Mixing practical stuff with little theory is a recipe for disaster.

Well yeah, but not all courses are like that. I'll be the first to agree that there exists a huge amount of complete bullshít which falls under the umbrella of "Computer Science"

Naikon wrote: »

Someone doing a Physics course is more than qualified to pick up the computing bits in no time. I still think 4 years of nothing but CS is overkill. Very boring too.

Again, I disagree.

If by "computing bits" you mean bog standard programming skills that might get you an average job, then sure.

But for me, CS was about so much more than that. In my 4 years I studied various aspects of CS including maths (logic, graph theory, number theory, stats etc.) digital logic (involving wiring up simple digital circuits), hardware (assembly code, memory mapping, design of ALUs, simple CPUs, pipelines, caches, cache coherency, MMUs, novel architectures (data flow + graph reduction machines etc.), virtualization, transactional memory...), OS concepts, concurrent programming (basic Java threads, pthreads, openmp, vectorization/SSE, instruction level parallelism, static and dynamic instruction scheduling, locking algorithms, lockless data structures), compiler design (top down + bottom up parsing, code generation, SSA, optimizations etc.), functional programming, telecommunications, and other stuff I've forgotten.

Not that I don't have any complaints about my course, I have quite a few, but at the same time in no way would I say that 4 years were overkill or that I didn't learn much.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Naikon wrote: »

Someone doing a Physics course is more than qualified to pick up the computing bits in no time. I still think 4 years of nothing but CS is overkill. Very boring too.

I have to aggree with the physics part, on my masters corse, one of my mates had a degree in maths and did a h dip in IT before doing the masters. was one of the best programmers in the class. However, being a good programmer doesnt mean you will be a good software engineer, and that is why CS courses are 4 years. for my under grad, we had 2 subjects a year for the 4 years that were not programming related, such as web design, human computer interaction, systems analysis, software engineering, and the one most courses have, Organisational behaviour. A 4 year course with just programming would indeed be over kill, and would make it tough finding a job too!
In my opinion, the best subject on my undergrad was my 6 month placement. Got proper hands on experience developing an app from gathering requirments from the users to tesing!

YourNameForMe

I did a degree in Computing with Games Development. Most people going into this course think that they will be qualified to work in the games industry when they finish but you quickly learn that's not going to happen. We did a bit of games development and it was interesting but nothing that you wouldn't learn from doing a simple games project.

I think my course had too little focus on software development. I mean, we had two semesters configuring Cisco routers and switches. I've completely forgotten everything I learned in that class, I really can't understand why that was important for a software engineering degree. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about where you go to college or which flavor of CS you do because its what you are willing to learn on your own time that really matters.

Can I make a recommendation, If you want to move to the next level of web development, try learning Python (its fairly similar to JavaScript) and use it to create an application or website on Google App Engine. Its completely free and a great way to experiment with web technologies. It would be a bit of a challenge but I'm sure you'll be able for it :-)

Naikon

tehjimmeh wrote: »

But for me, CS was about so much more than that. In my 4 years I studied various aspects of CS including maths (logic, graph theory, number theory, stats etc.) digital logic (involving wiring up simple digital circuits), hardware (assembly code, memory mapping, design of ALUs, simple CPUs, pipelines, caches, cache coherency, MMUs, novel architectures (data flow + graph reduction machines etc.), virtualization, transactional memory...), OS concepts, concurrent programming (basic Java threads, pthreads, openmp, vectorization/SSE, instruction level parallelism, static and dynamic instruction scheduling, locking algorithms, lockless data structures), compiler design (top down + bottom up parsing, code generation, SSA, optimizations etc.), functional programming, telecommunications, and other stuff I've forgotten.

Alot of the above topics don't fall under the definition of traditional Computer Science. Initially, CS was merely treated as a subset of Applied Maths. Computer Science is to Computers as Astronomy is to Telescopes.

tehjimmeh

Well, by "CS" I meant, the CS course which I did. And anyway, what Dijkstra said isn't gospel, what the term "Computer Science" in fact refers to isn't widely agreed upon.

But this is besides the point, I'm not really sure what your point is...

Naikon

tehjimmeh wrote: »

Well, by "CS" I meant, the CS course which I did. And anyway, what Dijkstra said isn't gospel, what the term "Computer Science" in fact refers to isn't widely agreed upon.

But this is besides the point, I'm not really sure what your point is...

I wont argue with ya. You are right that Computer Science as a discipline is not well defined. Especially when you consider these new fangled web technologies. it's whatever the people who run the course decide:)

stevenmu

Reading this thread I think there's a lot of confusion about computing related degrees, and more specifically what they are actually for.

Computer Science is oddly enough exactly what it says on the tin, the science of computing. As already mentioned, it's a very broad area that can cover a lot. What isn't though is 'how to be a programmer'. It's normal for a CS course to include programming modules because it's usefull to gain and demonstrate an deeper understanding of the theory, but you could probably do a pretty comprehensive CS course without any code.

Software Engineering is again exactly what it says on the tin. It's an engineering discipline, the engineering of software to be exact. Again it's not 'how to program', you don't do a civil engineering degree if you want to build a garden wall. It's how to correctly engineer software, how to design and architect software correctly, how to manage software projects etc. Programming helps to gain and demonstrate a deeper understanding of the theory.

Computing degrees, including a 'Cloud Computing' degree (which is blatant buzzword band-hopping) are a bit of a mixed bag and will vary based on the modules.

Physics is clearly a whole different ballpark. Sure someone who does a physics degree can pick learn to program as well, but equally someone who does CS/SE can learn to do physics as well.

But there's a lot more to being a good software developer than just being able to write a program. There's a lot of extra theory in a CS/SE that helps make someone a good developer. There's nothing in a CS/SE degree that someon who did a physics degree can't learn on their own. But you can spend your 4 years doing CS/SE, learn how to program and learn many other topics that help be a good developer, or you can spend 4 years doing physics and spend many more years learning to program and all the rest.

If someone wants to be a developer, then a CS/SE degree is the obvious choice, and researching the different modules in each would be the way to decide between them. Some form of 'Computing' degree may also be good, but would be very dependant on the specific course and modules. Unless someone specifically wants to write physics software, in which case a physics degree might be an option. But then a CS/SE grad could just google whatever equations are needed and implement those

Naikon

Funny how the majority of Lecturers in the CS dept at my college dont't actually posess a CS degree. Physics, Science, Engineering, Maths - but very few with CS degrees. Says alot imo. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel the course I sat had enough emphasis on theory. I am actually worried how little the course covered when it comes to the hard theory. A degree in Software Engineering hardly qualifies as an Engineering degree imo.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Naikon wrote: »

A degree in Software Engineering hardly qualifies as an Engineering degree imo.

true, Software Engineering is still a very new field, so its still being defined what a software engineer should do! I think maynooth is the only college that offers a proper "Software Engineering" course.