What is a female point of view/perspective?

donfers

ok I know the last thing you want is another TLL debate but please hear me out, I'd just like to clarify it once and for all so the issue doesn't keep cropping up again. Please don't feel threatened or besieged, I don't in any way question tll's right to exist, I just want to re-examine the wording in the charter which is fundamentally flawed in my view and if tidied up will hopefully bring these endless debates to an end.

I had a look at the looked thread about the ladies lounge and a few posters were questioning the ethos of the forum and a lot of the replies were "what's so hard to understand?, guys are welcome but the charter says the forum is for posts from a female point of view/perspective".

I don't understand that. It sounds as if females have a uniform view/perspective on things which couldn't be further from the truth. For discussions of physiological stuff that are uniquely female then fair enough, I'm not demanding the right to wade in there to offer advice on bra choices and the like.

Let me say, before I continue, that I have no problem with the ladies lounge right to exist or having for example, a forum that is for the discussion of women's issues or feminist issues (still a general term but at least more specific than the mindboggling "female perspective"). I posted there many times in the past, didn't run into any more trouble there than I have in other fora (usually due to my, at times admittedly abrasive, opinionated, one-eyed and blunt posting style). Indeed I have to say whenever any issues did arise there or if I was unhappy about something - Silverfish dealt with in an even-handed manner so fair play to her. I have to say I enjoyed posting there although it usually ended up with me arguing with the same 10-12 block of posters who dominate in there (not being critical of that phenomenon, it is a reality of most internet fora) so in the end I decided to stop posting there as there is only so many times one can have the same argument.

I think another poster mentioned that women in general prefer a more sharing, non-argumentative, empathetic discourse and men tend to be more aggressive and competitive debaters. To be honest I think that's horse**** and the tone and force of one's debate is usually to be measured by how much you agree with the argument. Thus, if everybody is, more or less of the same political viewpoint then naturally things will be gentle and calm. Some in the ladies lounge might perceive me to be a pain in the hole because I used to get involved there when I thought men (yes and unfortunately by implication that means me as I belong to that subgroup) were being unfairly represented. However put me in the Liverpool thread with my like-minded Liverpool fans or in the indie/music thread with my fellow hipsters and I'm a teddy bear (most of the time:)). The point being that it's not our gender that determines the ferocity of our debate, it's how much the debate provokes us. I think the ladies have the right to vent about whatever they please but all I would say is that if they vent about men in a generalised way then I reserve the right to jump in if I feel something unfair has been said. It's not personal, say something nasty about Munster or Liverpool or Ireland or Radiohead or whatever and no doubt I'll jump in too. Usually the debate was allowed to take place in tll which was great but often I see posters complaining that they don't want their views questioned (they'll use terms like dismissed, ridiculed, torn to shreds, mocked) which I think is dangerous and can lead to a groupthink siege mentality - possibly this has already occurred and the men who genuinely ridicule the ladies lounge and those posters within tll who pander to the whole "safe place" nonsense which is insulting to women in my view, are both to blame - have the discussion and expose the idiots, simple as that. I'd also disagree with those that say Tll and Tgc operate on a similar basis. I think Tgc is generally more welcoming of female posters and tolerant of views that differ from the prevailing view. For example I don't recall even one example of a poster being told in tgc "tgc is for issues from a male perspective, please read the charter etc etc". However Tgc doesn't have the same feeling of being under siege in a male-dominated enviroment as tll does so i can understand tll's position without necessarily always agreeing with the action they take.

Anyway whatever about the rights and wrongs of it, I mean I am sure tllers are tired of debates about the rationale behind the forum (reason why you guys are questioned more than most is simply because gender issues apply to a far greater number of us than say golf or christianity), the only question I am really asking here relates to the whole "female perspective/point of view thing".

I have many female friends and lovers and each of them, delightfully and not extraordinarily at all usually has a different perspective and point of view to whatever issue/point/argument is being discussed.

What's my point? To narrow down one's point of view perspective to be based on gender is, in my view, a quite reductionist, lazy, close-minded and foolish thing to do.


What is a female perspective? For god's sake that's a contradiction in terms, a perspective is by it's very definition, an individual thing

Women A might think he should pay the restaurant bill

Women B might think they should pay halves

Women C might think she should pay it all

Women D might think they should run away before the bill arrive and spend the money on booze instead

Any man might agree with any of women a, b, c or d

Where is the female perspective there? How do I know if I am agreeing or disagreeing with it ffs? Or if I am respecting the charter or somehow breaking it? Ludicrous stuff

My advice would be to come clean and say

1. females only (hard to enforce but make the ruling anyway)

or

2. change female perspective to feminist perspective (two completely different things by the way)

By doing this, all misunderstanding will be done away with. I hope I've helped.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Jesus, a thousand words. Seems to me that you're really being pedantic if you insist on a charter preferring a "feminine" perspective rather than a "female" perspective.

Beruthiel

tl:dr

Honestly, what in Thors name is wrong with a forum for the female population?
Seriously, what?

I've no interest in the forum, I rarely read or comment in there, it doesn't interest me.
But, if the women of this site, would like a forum to discuss female issues, why the hell not?

And furthmore, in all the complaints I see about that forum, they never come from the women. You know, the women, for whom the forum was set up?
If the women who use that forum are happy with it, then it's working well.
If you don't like how it's run, or what's discussed there, then don't read there.

stovelid

It would be pretty hard to imagine most women spending so much time agonizing over - and trying to insinuate themselves into - their place in a forum primarily set up for men to discuss issues that they felt were important to them.

Wibbs

FFS. That is all.

Logical Fallacy

Look, it's an easy forum to post in, just don't be a ****ing bell end and you'll be grand.

Don't interject "yeah well, this happens to men" and "yeah, but women do that too" into every thread and it's smooth sailing.

Silverfish

donfers, I want you to know that I have given your thread serious thought, and I disagree.

It's not about whether men agree with the opinions, or that if men do agree with them then they aren't "feminine" opinions.

The forum is for females, that incorporates a feminine point of view, to steal a phrase from McLusky, including, but not exclusive to.

I see what you're trying to get at, and once again, I'll say that I think you're missing the actual point and purpose of the forum.

Nodin

Beruthiel wrote: »

tl:dr

Honestly, what in Thors name is wrong with a forum for the female population?
Seriously, what?
......................

They're in league with Satan?

Beruthiel

Nodin wrote: »

They're in league with Satan?

If that were truly the case, I'd be Commander and Chief....

OutlawPete

Beruthiel wrote: »

If you don't like how it's run, or what's discussed there, then don't read there.

Point missed by a country mile.

Wibbs wrote: »

FFS. That is all.

Great contribution.

So you're still sticking your head in the sand on the issue then and being needlessly surly while you do it.

According to the Charter of TLL, the forum welcomes "male input" and from my own experience( and on witnessing many other user's frustration with this aspect of the forum) just what that "male input" is, needs to be more defined. The issue keeps being strawmanned to death by moderators and the inference keeps being made that users 'don't like' the forum's 'ethos' or that they don't except that forum is there primarily for female Boardsies to express their views from a female perspective.

This is all a fallacy, not a morsel of truth in it. Perhaps there are trollish type users who want to start trollish type threads daily or want to jump on most other threads and start discussing things from a more male perspective or constantly wish to divert threads off in a totally different direction as a consequence of that but I see no evidence that the genuine users that have made queries regarding just what it is that qualifies as "male input" in TLL believe any of the crap that is thrown back in their face when this issue is raised.

First of all, the notion that men and women have different "styles" of debating is illogical and sexist. What complete tosh. I have been involved in many debates on this forum over the years and there is no way that I could tell the sex of a user just based on their "style" of debating. Some men are timid and some women cutting and vice versa. Nor do I feel that men want to "win" discussions, whereas women are more about not having a winner and what? Just learning from one another? Honestly.

'Male input' is welcomed in TLL, define it or remove it from the Charter. Enough of this crap comparing the way TGC is moderated to the way TLL is. They are NO WHERE NEAR moderated the same. TGC does not walk on men that ask on-topic questions or that start threads that have a slight criticism of women. I don't care if you get the whole of the TGC moderation team in here to disagree with me, they will never convince me black is white, which is what they would need to do in order for them to convince of the nonsense opinion the two forums moderate the opposite sex with the same level of moderation. I realise that when those views were made on the other thread it was done with the best intention, but it couldn't be any further from the truth.

Beruthiel

I have to ask, if the forum bothers you that much, why do you spend so much time in there?

Oh, and I haven't missed the point.

There are a handful of people using that forum, who have nothing good to say about the place.
Why use it then?

The vast majority have no problem using the forum, can work within it's charter and enjoy the place.

Personally, I have no great interest in talking about female stuff, hence, I don't go there.
How is it, you can't do the same if it bothers you that much?

K-9

I have seen female posters warned or banned for "whataboutery" type posts on the tGC.

tGC is there for men to say, have a discussion on feminism and Germaine Greer without having whataboutery posts that turn threads into battles of the sexes and vice versa for the tLL. AH or Humanities is there for those type of threads.

There always seems to be objections about tLL, from when it was set up to not having a male POV board to not having a certain type of male board to not having a tLL that a few male posters want. I can understand the mods being fed up with it.

OutlawPete

Beruthiel wrote: »

I have to ask, if the forum bothers you that much, why do you spend so much time in there?

I addressed that question and similar ones in the HD thread (which I knew you hadn't read all that much by what you posted in it). Your post in that thread (acting as Admin which I requested) addressed none of what I had said and when I replied to your post you never returned to the thread. Thread ended up being locked by a TLL mod who was there in her capacity as moderator of TLL, yet she then took that hat off, stuck an Admin hat on and locked the thread (which I have reported but got no reply on). I suggest you go back and read the thread if you want an answer to your question, maybe then you will realise how ridiculous it is.

Beruthiel wrote: »

Oh, and I haven't missed the point.

There are a handful of people using that forum, who have nothing good to say about the place. Don't know what their real agenda is for that, don't care. The vast majority have no problem using the forum, can work within it's charter and enjoy the place.

Did it ever occur to you that they DO like the forum and the fact that they are complaining is because they are overly restricted in what they can post? A restriction that seems to fly in the face of the charter might I add.

Beruthiel wrote: »

Personally, I have no great interest in talking about female stuff, hence, I don't go there. How is it, you can't do the same if it bothers you that much?

Again, all answered in the HD thread that you were supposed to be acting as Admin on.

Beruthiel

OutlawPete wrote: »

Again, all answered in the HD thread that you were supposed to be acting as Admin on.

I gave my opinion in the HD thread.
I have no interest in getting into writing a short book on the subject with you.
Nor have I any intention in going round in circles with you.

You don't like how the forum is run. That's clear.
However, the vast majority do.
That is what we aim for.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
If you can please most of the people all of the time though, that's acceptable.

Wolfe Tone

Wibbs wrote: »

FFS. That is all.

The lad wrote a well thought out post, least you could do is give it a decent response rather than "FFS".

OutlawPete

Beruthiel wrote: »

I gave my opinion in the HD thread.

As I said, it's clear you didn't fully read the thread, so your "opinion" was not an informed one.

Beruthiel wrote: »

I have no interest in getting into writing a short book on the subject with you.

You don't have to get into "writing a short book on the subject" with me, as you so eloquently out it. You just had to reply to ONE post, as I put a question to you and had you addressed it, you would have seen my point in starting the thread. Admin should not be dismissing threads the way you clearly dismissed mine and when someone reports a post in that forum after there thread is locked and untruths posted, they should not be ignored either.

Beruthiel wrote: »

Nor have I any intention in going round in circles with you.

Nor do I. Straight on dealing with the points I raised would have been nice though.

Beruthiel wrote: »

You don't like how the forum is run. That's clear.

Crystal.

Beruthiel wrote: »

However, the vast majority do.

I question whether the vast majority of female Boardsies would approve of the TLL's approach to how they moderate men in that forum. I don't believe for a second they do. It is my contention that they would like to see the forum moderated in the same manner that TGC is.

Beruthiel wrote: »

That is what we aim for.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
If you can please most of the people all of the time though, that's acceptable.

Nah, that's not true. For many years Football was not allowed to be discussed in AH and we were told the same. Many threads on the topic and we were shouted down from the same heights as is shouting down users now on this issue. 'You want to discuss Soccer, go to the Soccer forum, it's simple' they cried as they were backslapped off threads. However, a few of us (maybe four or five max!) knew we were right and URL started a thread, the forum was Polled and low and behold, we had a World Cup thread last year for Soccer banter and Ireland hadn't even qualified.

Things change, men are tired of being walked on in that forum and we want the same level of respect if TLL, which is affored to women in TGC. We like the forum, know many of it's patrons from the rest of Boards and would like to engage with them on different topics. Nothing needs to change with regards to the 'ethos'. In fact, if anything - tis the ethos we want following through on.

K-9

What are the differences with tGC? I don't see any big differences myself. Maybe if you can outline the differences people might get an idea of what the complaint is actually about, it just seems very vague atm.

OutlawPete

K-9 wrote: »

What are the differences with tGC? I don't see any big differences myself. Maybe if you can outline the differences people might get an idea of what the complaint is actually about, it just seems very vague atm.

I did mate, in that HD thread and if I post it here again I will just be accused of hijacking this thread, surprised I haven't been already. Only a matter of time before a few users are referred to as "disgruntled" users with a grudge against the forum.

Dudess

Donfers, if men were being unfairly spoken of in The Ladies' Lounge (the way it constantly happens re women in After Hours, to the point of some folks even imagining a group of man-hating feminazis having a presence there) it would be perfectly reasonable for you to go in there and defend men, but it doesn't happen. And it's assumed too that men who make what's deemed inappropriate comments are reprimanded because they're men, not because of the comments.

K-9

OutlawPete wrote: »

I did mate, in that HD thread and if I post it here again I will just be accused of hijacking this thread, surprised I haven't been already. Only a matter of time before a few users are referred to as "disgruntled" users with a grudge against the forum.

Right, commenting on particular threads is frowned upon in Feedback. I was thinking more of examples of existing threads in tGC that you think wouldn't get the time of day in tLL.

stovelid

What's with all the We stuff in relation to the menfolk of boards?

OutlawPete

K-9 wrote: »

Right, commenting on particular threads is frowned upon in Feedback. I was thinking more of examples of existing threads in tGC that you think wouldn't get the time of day in tLL.

Well, here's one thread (I have no problem with by the way) which was started in TGC that if a man had started in TLL and complained of women making equivalent arguments would never have been allowed. The OP would have been accused of trolling within minutes and the thread locked:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71560810

However, this isn't just about 'threads started' it's more about 'input' on threads. Again I said all this in my HD thread, but I have no problem with the moderators there moderating users that have said their piece (happened me here and not one complaint did I make) nor do I have an issue with men being asked not to genuinely derail threads, if in fact that is what they are doing. This is about users being moderated for very little, sometimes women also, for asking relevant questions and being told that what they are doing is going against the ethos of the forum, when it is anything but.

Dudess

That "Sexism on the internet" thread was a discussion of a particular phenomenon, and a very prevalent one, which crops up regularly on this site. It was NOT an attack on men in general, it was frustration vented at the way some men (and probably a few women too - it wouldn't surprise me) behave.

Gunsfortoys

There are many posters that are feminists on boards. there is no question about it.

I have no problem with it as long as it is within the confines of a feminist sub forum as such.

When you bring it into forums such as After Hours then I think people have every right to kick up a stink about it, but there are a lot of authoritative figures on boards with feminist views that make it hard for any poster to put across their opinion of it and if they speak ill of feminism in any way, they are banned or deemed sexist.

As for the difference between TGC and TLL, if you don't see the huge difference in the style of moderation you are blinder than a Bat.

IvyTheTerrible

My understanding of the Ladies Lounge was that woman post in a "safe" place without worrying about people coming on to them, or posting "get back in the kitchen"-type posts that happen in other forums, and that men are welcome to post once they bear that in mind.

K-9

OutlawPete wrote: »

Well, here's one thread (I have no problem with by the way) which was started in TGC that if a man had started in TLL and complained of women making equivalent arguments would never have been allowed. The OP would have been accused of trolling within minutes and the thread locked:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71560810

However, this isn't just about 'threads started' it's more about 'input' on threads. Again I said all this in my HD thread, but I have no problem with the moderators there moderating users that have said their piece (happened me here and not one complaint did I make) nor do I have an issue with men being asked not to genuinely derail threads, if in fact that is what they are doing. This is about users being moderated for very little, sometimes women also, for asking relevant questions and being told that what they are doing is going against the ethos of the forum, when it is anything but.

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

There are many posters that are feminists on boards. there is no question about it.

I have no problem with it as long as it is within the confines of a feminist sub forum as such.

When you bring it into forums such as After Hours then I think people have every right to kick up a stink about it, but there are a lot of authoritative figures on boards with feminist views that make it hard for any poster to put across their opinion of it and if they speak ill of feminism in any way, they are banned or deemed sexist.

As for the difference between TGC and TLL, if you don't see the huge difference in the style of moderation you are blinder than a Bat.

And here's a recent thread that a tGC mod did act on:

Germaine Greer urged to apologise for "all soldiers rape" comment - boards.ie

Gunsfortoys

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

My understanding of the Ladies Lounge was that woman post in a "safe" place without worrying about people coming on to them, or posting "get back in the kitchen"-type posts that happen in other forums, and that men are welcome to post once they bear that in mind.

There are a lot of female posters in The Gentlemen's Club that ask a mans opinions of a variety of subjects. I am more of a lurker in The Gentleman's Club and find the debates interesting. Although I feel the moderation again is a bit heavy handed.

I have seen many a thread started by a man looking for an opinion from women(nothing out of the ordinary) in The Ladies Lounge, the thread was locked and the OP told "this isn't an advice forum" or some such. That is one difference in the flow of the forums.

If The Ladies Lounge welcomes the male point of view (without being obtuse or abusive of course), then they should clarify this if they hand out an infraction or an on thread warning.

Ticktactoe

Can someone please sum up what the above is about - i have read it but am confused

Dudess

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

There are many posters that are feminists on boards. there is no question about it.

I have no problem with it as long as it is within the confines of a feminist sub forum as such.

When you bring it into forums such as After Hours then I think people have every right to kick up a stink about it, but there are a lot of authoritative figures on boards with feminist views that make it hard for any poster to put across their opinion of it and if they speak ill of feminism in any way, they are banned or deemed sexist.

What is your definition of "feminist"? I get the impression it's merely man-hater/woman who thinks women are better than men - in which case, no, there are NOT a lot of feminists on Boards. Extremely few actually. The odd one who posts is usually exposed for the crackpot she is, pretty quickly. Even - shock horror! - on the Ladies' Lounge!
As for objections to speaking ill of feminism? Absolutely - when the definition given of it is "man-hating" and nothing else, and zero accounting for the fact that there are many different types of feminism and many variations of extremity. E.g. a woman, who believes women should have the right to give up work when she becomes a mother, can be a feminist.
On AH though, a feminist can ONLY be a woman who hates anyone that supports women giving up work to raise kids - and it's unfair, and no wonder many of us are ****ing sick of it.
Thread the other day on chivalry was, once again, horrible btw - the implication that, yeah, all these crazy bitches had posted "Chivalry is sexist!!! :mad:" when... eh... NONE had...

Delirium

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I have seen many a thread started by a man looking for an opinion from women(nothing out of the ordinary), in TLL, being locked and being told "this isn't an advice forum" or some such. That is but one difference in the flow of the forums.

The charter of tLL actually states the following regarding that point:

9) The Ladies Lounge is not a place for men to come and start threads requesting opinions on X, Y and Z from women. Women aren't of a single mind or opinion.

So it's seems reasonable to me that the mods act upon the charter.

Gunsfortoys

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Can someone please sum up what the above is about - i have read it but am confused

Someone get me a piece of chalk...