Bus Engine ordered to be turned off during Journey.

ssaye

UPDATE ON THIS

This has now occurred 2 times in the last week.

15 Minute delay at first stop, 25 Minute delay at first stop

Today the Bus Driver had an Inspector accompany him on the journey.

The passenger and baby and young child again get on and proceed to leave the buggy in the wheelchair/buggy spot unoccupied and blankly refused to fold it and the stand off continued from 8:10 to 8:37 before the bus left. There were tears and shouting but ultimately the passenger sat in the seat and placed the child in the buggy and held it.

She could not grasp you had to hold your child and fold the buggy or sit beside the occupied buggy. Her child cried because she had to stand beside her mother in that spot.

The inspector tried to explain that she must do this on her both journeys every single day.

I am sure Dublin Bus Drivers are probably aware of the hassle on the 65 Bus by now. You can hear them talk about it on their radio daily.


TBC....

ssaye wrote: »

I was on Dublin Bus yesterday and halfway through the journey an Inspector got on and asked a mother to fold her buggy for Health and Safety Reasons. Fair enough. The mother said she cannot fold the buggy. (Someone offered to do it for her and she said it would break if you tried)

However, the Inspector ordered the driver to shut down the engine and the bus stayed stationary for 10-15 minutes. Eventually another passenger sat beside the buggy unfolded and held it for the Journey which the Inspector agreed to. My question is how long can a Bus Inspector stop a bus for?


Whats the procedure if a passenger refuses to comply, Ejection, Guards called and what recourse do the passengers have, if any, for the Bus being stopped for a significant period of time.

schemingbohemia

I'd just refuse to let her on the bus, if she can't abide by the rules for carriage just don't let her on.

lil5

From the DB website -
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Accessibility/Passengers-with-buggies/

"Passengers With Buggies

Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.
Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.
If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side. "


>>

It doesn't say anywhere that the buggy has to be occupied to be placed in the wheelchair bay, or that an unoccupied buggy has to be folded and put away in the luggage area.

If the customer wants to place the buggy in the wheelchair bay and take her child out for the duration of the journey she should be allowed to do so.

schemingbohemia

lil5 wrote: »

From the DB website -
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Accessibility/Passengers-with-buggies/

"Passengers With Buggies

Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.
Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.
If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side. "


>>

It doesn't say anywhere that the buggy has to be occupied to be placed in the wheelchair bay, or that an unoccupied buggy has to be folded and put away in the luggage area.

If the customer wants to place the buggy in the wheelchair bay and take her child out for the duration of the journey she should be allowed to do so.

Even when she has been asked by the bus driver and inspector not to do so, and by arguing with them delay every other passenger for 20 minutes?

Yet another - I know my rights - idiot (i'm referring to the passenger not you) who forgets that with rights come responsibilities.

lil5

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why the passenger shouldn't be allowed to leave an empty buggy in the wheelchair bay if there is space. She abides buy the rules of carriage.


I still think that the driver and the inspector are in the wrong and shouldn't be allowed to hold up the bus journey for everyone else.

meanmachine3

ssaye wrote: »

UPDATE ON THIS

This has now occurred 2 times in the last week.

15 Minute delay at first stop, 25 Minute delay at first stop

Today the Bus Driver had an Inspector accompany him on the journey.

The passenger and baby and young child again get on and proceed to leave the buggy in the wheelchair/buggy spot unoccupied and blankly refused to fold it and the stand off continued from 8:10 to 8:37 before the bus left. There were tears and shouting but ultimately the passenger sat in the seat and placed the child in the buggy and held it.

She could not grasp you had to hold your child and fold the buggy or sit beside the occupied buggy. Her child cried because she had to stand beside her mother in that spot.

The inspector tried to explain that she must do this on her both journeys every single day.

I am sure Dublin Bus Drivers are probably aware of the hassle on the 65 Bus by now. You can hear them talk about it on their radio daily.


TBC....

says it all really. she must be a regular at this then for her to keep chancing her arm. i'm delighted they were ready for her. and if i was the driver i'd do exactly what he's doing. shes probably kicking up such a fuss that the driver will get fed up and let her win. not a chance. he stuck by his guns.

lil5 wrote: »

It doesn't say anywhere that the buggy has to be occupied to be placed in the wheelchair bay, or that an unoccupied buggy has to be folded and put away in the luggage area.

If the customer wants to place the buggy in the wheelchair bay and take her child out for the duration of the journey she should be allowed to do so.

actually if memory serves me correct it does actually say one occupied wheelchair or buggy. theres a notice right under the autofare (where you pay cash fares) on the use of buggies and wheelchairs. most boarding passengers cant miss it and it does say occupied

lil5 wrote: »

From the DB website -
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Accessibility/Passengers-with-buggies/

"Passengers With Buggies

Wednesday, November 26, 2008

Low-floor buses are designed so that buggies can remain unfolded in the wheelchair space if it is free. Please make sure the buggy is safely positioned and the brake is on, unfolded buggies cannot travel in the gangway. You should be able to board any low-floor bus with a buggy. If the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to board safely, he may refuse you boarding. The driver will not ask anybody already travelling to get off the bus to make room.
Wheelchair users have priority over everyone else for use of the wheelchair space, since this is the only place in which they can travel safely.
If someone in a wheelchair wishes to board when there is an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space, the driver will ask you to fold the buggy and either put it in the luggage space or keep it by your side. "

i'm delighted to see that they've also made it quite clear on who actually has priority

meanmachine3

lil5 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why the passenger shouldn't be allowed to leave an empty buggy in the wheelchair bay if there is space. She abides buy the rules of carriage.


I still think that the driver and the inspector are in the wrong and shouldn't be allowed to hold up the bus journey for everyone else.

ahhh jasus what next dunnes stores shopping trollies. actually she didn't abide by the rules of carriage.if you read my post above it says just below the drivers autofare box. one occupied wheelchair or buggy just because shes is entitled to travel be it cash ,tickets, passes, it still doesn't give her the right to be a law unto herself. shes brought all this attention onto herself. and if shes not careful she could be refused future travel on the grounds that shes a troublesome passenger.

Cookie_Monster

meanmachine3 wrote: »

and if shes not careful she could be refused future travel on the grounds that shes a troublesome passenger.

"fold your buggy"
"no"
20 min stand off

next day

"get off the bus, you're banned as a troublesome passenger"
"no"

20 min stand off

doesn't really accomplish much though does it...

and more than likely then:

next day

"you were told yesterday, you are banned"
"but today I have Richard Boyd Barret here to stand up for me - you know how he loves his pointless causes that only serve to annoy the vast majority of people to benefit only a minority"

3 hour standoff and bus burnt down, students blamed for protest gone out of control

meanmachine3

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

"fold your buggy"
"no"
20 min stand off

next day

"get off the bus, you're banned as a troublesome passenger"
"no"

20 min stand off

doesn't really accomplish much though does it...

and more than likely then:

next day

"you were told yesterday, you are banned"
"but today I have Richard Boyd Barret here to stand up for me - you know how he loves his pointless causes that only serve to annoy the vast majority of people to benefit only a minority"

3 hour standoff and bus burnt down, students blamed for protest gone out of control

if driver backs down she wins and what next for buggy woman?. following week new driver same situation. the line has to be drawn somewhere.

foggy_lad

ssaye wrote: »

UPDATE ON THIS

This has now occurred 2 times in the last week.

15 Minute delay at first stop, 25 Minute delay at first stop

Today the Bus Driver had an Inspector accompany him on the journey.

The passenger and baby and young child again get on and proceed to leave the buggy in the wheelchair/buggy spot unoccupied and blankly refused to fold it and the stand off continued from 8:10 to 8:37 before the bus left. There were tears and shouting but ultimately the passenger sat in the seat and placed the child in the buggy and held it.

She could not grasp you had to hold your child and fold the buggy or sit beside the occupied buggy. Her child cried because she had to stand beside her mother in that spot.

The inspector tried to explain that she must do this on her both journeys every single day.

I am sure Dublin Bus Drivers are probably aware of the hassle on the 65 Bus by now. You can hear them talk about it on their radio daily.


TBC....

Obviously this particular person has been of some concern to Dublin Bus whether in connection to person injury claims or regularly preventing wheelchair users from using services they should otherwise be able to access. It has to be something though to justify the delaying of the bus on more than one occasion and the attendance of an inspector.

Also if it got to the stage where there were tears shed the inspector should have called for the assistance of the Guards and asked the woman to accompany him from the bus to wait for them.

I suspect there is a lot more to this story that we and the op as onlookers know nothing about.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'd just refuse to let her on the bus, if she can't abide by the rules for carriage just don't let her on.

Exactly the thing to do the next time she is waiting at a stop, Dont open the doors/let her on until the Buggy is folded.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Even when she has been asked by the bus driver and inspector not to do so, and by arguing with them delay every other passenger for 20 minutes?

Yet another - I know my rights - idiot (i'm referring to the passenger not you) who forgets that with rights come responsibilities.

She refused to follow the instructions of two authorised persons yet they still had compassion enough to allow her travel!

markpb

lil5 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why the passenger shouldn't be allowed to leave an empty buggy in the wheelchair bay if there is space. She abides buy the rules of carriage.

a) she didn't abide by the conditions of carriage

b) she's needlessly (and selfishly) blocking the bay so a wheelchair user can't board the bus.

parsi

It seems strange that DB have deployed an Inspector to work on this particular problem. As mentioned above this person must have some sort of prior history with the organisation as it would seem to me that generally Inspectors are loath to leave the luxury of their staff cars and support their staff.

January

lil5 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why the passenger shouldn't be allowed to leave an empty buggy in the wheelchair bay if there is space. She abides buy the rules of carriage.


I still think that the driver and the inspector are in the wrong and shouldn't be allowed to hold up the bus journey for everyone else.

The reason she's not allowed just leave the empty buggy in the space is, the bus has to jam on the brakes and the buggy topples over and hits someone standing up, or god forbid the person sitting the the seat behind the stairs, or the bus turns a sharp corner and the buggy topples again... OR and here's the clincher, buggy topples over and gets damaged, you could be damn well sure she'd try to claim for damages for it!

meanmachine3

lil5 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I still don't see why the passenger shouldn't be allowed to leave an empty buggy in the wheelchair bay if there is space. She abides buy the rules of carriage.
.

well lil it would appear that you dont have any young children. ok i'll put to you this way, i'm dealing with this woman and i cave in, she can leave her buggy there after doing a song and dance and getting people you like to turn against the nasty rude bus driver. next stop your waiting to get on my bus with your month old baby in a buggy. my words to you would be " sorry lil only have room for one open buggy you'll have to wait 30 mins in the lashing rain for the next bus as this woman refuses to fold her buggy". it's all grand and dandy kicking up a stick in defense of buggy lady until it directly involves you. then i'm sure you'd be one of the first to kick up a stink about being left in the lashings of rain.

lil5 wrote: »

I still think that the driver and the inspector are in the wrong and shouldn't be allowed to hold up the bus journey for everyone else.

i wonder where you got that idea from :rolleyes:. as far as everyone else can see buggy lady held up the bus, not the driver or inspector.all it takes is two minutes to fold and store a buggy. isn't it amazing that she happened to be there the following morning getting the same bus, ohhh but wait this time there was a inspector waiting.. coincidence or what?. as the saying goes once bitten twice shy.

dowlingm

Typical CIE do the right thing the wrong way. A second bus load of passengers were held up 27 minutes because this person was allowed to board and place her buggy rather than being refused boarding unless she committed to respecting the bylaw.

Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

Another week of this and a wheelchair passenger will get on and marvel not just at the empty space for his/her wheelchair but rows and rows of empty standard seats.

thanks for the update ssaye by the way

meanmachine3

lil5 wrote: »

It doesn't say anywhere that the buggy has to be occupied to be placed in the wheelchair bay, or that an unoccupied buggy has to be folded and put away in the luggage area.

If the customer wants to place the buggy in the wheelchair bay and take her child out for the duration of the journey she should be allowed to do so.

this is for all you that have took buggy lady's side. it's there for every boarding passenger to see. what more do u want.

monument

I also looked at one of those notices the other day, that's not what they all say. They may be getting somewhat better, but sadly our state transport companies don't do uniformity in generally or signs very well.

And, to be clear: I do not agree with leaving prams unattended.

January

I'm afraid I'm going to be an ignorant mother today :rolleyes:... I have to take the two kids to the city centre with me today and the only way to do that is the double buggy, there's just no possible way to fold it while holding a one year old toddler who doesn't walk so if someone else needs the space I won't be able to move. Thankfully I won't be travelling in rush hour traffic and my route is quiet enough during the day...

AlekSmart

January : I'm afraid I'm going to be an ignorant mother today ... I have to take the two kids to the city centre with me today and the only way to do that is the double buggy, there's just no possible way to fold it while holding a one year old toddler who doesn't walk so if someone else needs the space I won't be able to move.

January,your situation today should'nt be regarded as a "Problem".

The current situation makes it quite cut n'dried in that if you have possession of the reserved space then you retain it.

The problems only arise when people fail to accept that,currently, there is only a single space available per bus so once it's gone...it's gone.

As some posters have alluded to in this thread,much of the problem can arise when the second or subsequent claimants actually manage to board the Bus.

The key to dealing effectively with the situation is to ensure that the debating is kept to a minimum and that the debater remains off-the-bus...once that second device is placed on the platform the entire issue tends to magnify in intensity.

This can only be short-circuited by Busdrivers maintaining control over their vehicle and being aware of the distribution of their load at all times as well as scanning approaching stops for likely claimants

January

Ah no I know that I just like to be able to move for people if they have a younger child with them, I knew how hard it was in the early days trying to travel with a newborn and potentially having to wait for another bus when there was someone with a child who was older and could have sat on a seat/lap but wouldn't give it up to be courteous...

Thankfully we didn't encounter any problems today, apart from my 2.5 year old talking the ears off anyone who dared sit in the seat in front of the bay!!

AlekSmart

January wrote: »

........
Thankfully we didn't encounter any problems today, apart from my 2.5 year old talking the ears off anyone who dared sit in the seat in front of the bay!!

And that,believe it or not,is the norm....for most Bus Users,including those with disabilities and/or buggies etc.

The vast majority manage to interact with the system just fine,thank you.

I constantly return to the need to focus the Public Transport system upon these folks,the silent majority who just turn up,travel and never have any difficulty.

However,there is a modern tendency to focus instead upon the negative appraisals of a relatively small but highly visible (and audible) customer grouping,whose observations,requirements and demands are often totally unfulfillable and made far more in the spirit of selfishness than the "greater good".