Intermittent electrical fault

Blowheads

Hi All,
Hopefully some expert here could help me isolate an intermittent electrical fault in the house. Here is the current situation

• At least once per week the sockets in the house cut
• Only sockets, so lights etc are ok
• It can happen at any time, morning, afternoon, night
• Sometimes it will trip the switch, othertimes not
• Nothing extraordinary is connected only the usual stuff (fridge, clocks, skybox, telephone, baby monitor)
• The issue has occured since we moved in so I could not attribute it to anything in particular
• ESB states there are breakers on the line which cut out and in again if something disrupts it, our neighbours have not complained about this issue and ESB sent out a monitor and it came back that everything was within the guidelines

If anyone has any ideas how to locate the source of this once and for all i would appreciate it. It would be impossible to leave something unplugged for the periods involved as they are the basic necessities.

Appreciate your advice.
Mr. P

2011

Just to be clear, all sockets (and nothing else) switch off and then switch themselves back on after a short period of time?? Please confirm.

If this is the case, the problem is within the distribution board. It may be a loose connection.

muff03

Did you try swapping out the RCD or whatever it is that is governing the sockets? Or at least, like the previous post check the wiring for poor connections? That's where I'd start

hohojojo

could be something as simple as a loose connection in your board or the rcd could be on the way out

i presume it is the rcd tripping never just a mcb?

could be you immersion

there is lots around the house it could even just your a tv thats starting to give

does it reset first time every time you try to reset it?

has this happen since you moved or did it start a while after ?

if the problem persists i would suggest getting an electrician to look at it as if you have no experience with electrical stuff i would like to hear something bad happen ie. fire, shock or worse electricution

2011

ESB states there are breakers on the line which cut out and in again

This is the part I am not clear on. Does it switch back on by itself???

Bruthal

Its an internal problem within the house if the lights are staying on which is stated in the OP.

If all sockets are going off then its a connection problem within the board most likely. This could be a problem within the sockets RCD itself.

It could also be a problem on one circuit, as it would be hard to say every socket in the house is gone off unless you have went around testing them all.

Maybe someone has done something bizare like putting a timer controlling the sockets:D

Take a photo of the board and put it up anyway, and tell us which switch trips sometimes.

Blowheads

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Here are the answers.
1. It's rcd switch that trips, though only sometimes
2. ESB breakers are designed to flip on/off immediately in case a bird or branch touches tge line, that's what I'm told
3. There is no timer used anywhere
4. Power returns immediately, unless the switch is tripped
5. Flipping up the switch always works first time
6. My current sparked says this might never be fixed so am not too confident there
7. I have no clue about wiring
8. Issue started as soon as we moved in
9. All electrical appliances work correctly
10. Attached is pictures of board, top left is the one that might trip



Thanks again

M cebee

he thinks it might never be fixed does he:mad:

i hope he's interested in fixing it

Blowheads

and now the pictures

meercat

try leaving your immersion switched off for a week
also unplug any appliances you are not using(even if they are switched off)
also see if you can switch off central heating at fused spur unit(near timeclock)

muff03

Another quick question: can you think of anything that may have been turned on around the time of tripping, like a kettle or something? Like the above post, process of elimination time now. Also I'm not too convinced by your 'sparks'

meercat

agree muff03
a competent sparks should be able to get to the bottom of this
it might take a bit of time though but an insulation test would be a good start

M cebee

for the self resetting fault (already said)- maybe check connections anyhow

if it's a random rcd trip?

there's quite a few final circuits on rcd!

-if you have the gadgets (which i don't)
-you can ramp test and check leakage

-do the IR test at 250v with L-N bridged

- or even rcbo suspect 'final circuits'

saturday night :Dso i stand to be corrected

meercat

friday
corrected;)

muff03

M cebee wrote: »

saturday night :Dso i stand to be corrected

Hah. you must be in a right way, cause it's only Friday!:D

M cebee

yes it's friday:D

2011

M cebee wrote: »

for the self resetting fault (already said)- maybe check connections anyhow

+1

There is no harm in checking connections. This is quick and easy.

if it's a random rcd trip?

there's quite a few final circuits on rcd!

Exactly.

Split the circuits up across at least 2 RCDs. This alone may solve your problem!

If not, see which RCD trips then you can work out which circuits are OK.

Then further divide the suspect circuits with another RCD. By process of elimination you will work out which circuit is the problem circuit. Once this is identified it should not be too hard to find the problem.

As others have suggested the RCD may also be faulty. This can be tested quickly and easily with an RCD tester.

M cebee

the 'f' key is very close to the 's' key

easily done:pac:

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

saturday night :Dso i stand to be corrected

Right no more advice from this fella today, he has had a few scoops already:D:D:D

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

the 'f' key is very close to the 's' key

easily done:pac:

A that must be it, you meant to say sriday:pac:

Blowheads

thanks lads, will get onto it, anyone know a really good sparks in galway?

some further clarification,
1. Nothing is plugged in or switched on at the time of the fault, it could happen at any time even when we away from house
2. We dont use immersion
3. Heating turned off last few weeks, still tripping

2011

finneranpaul wrote: »

thanks lads, will get onto it, anyone know a really good sparks in galway?

No, but this would not be considered a difficult job for (almost) any electrician.

some further clarification,
1. Nothing is plugged in or switched on at the time of the fault, it could happen at any time even when we away from house

I would be very surprised if you have nothing plugged in. What about your fridge, dish washer, washing machine, microwave?? Even if they are not switched on a fault could still be introduced.

Permanently connected devices may also be the issue, such as:
Alarm
Oven
Hob
Boiler
Motorized valve

Also the fault may be related to the wiring of the house and not what you have plugged in/connected. This is where your electrician can assist.

2. We dont use immersion

Fair enough, but a neutral to earth fault within this could still be causing the RCD to operate. In theory the immersion switch should not permit this to happen when in the off position (as the switch should be double pole). In practice this may be different.

3. Heating turned off last few weeks, still tripping

See immersion.

I have found that this type of fault is often caused by water. So I would suggest that you check to see if for example there is a wet socket (behind your washing machine/dish washer).

Failing that as suggested before, install an additional RCD.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

No, but this would not be considered a difficult job for (almost) any electrician.

Intermittent faults can be hard to find, but with this one, it would seem simple enough to track it down alright.

I would be very surprised if you have nothing plugged in. What about your fridge, dish washer, washing machine, microwave?? Even if they are not switched on a fault could still be introduced.

Yes especially if there is now nothing visual to show the sockets have in fact gone off and the RCD has not tripped.

Permanently connected devices may also be the issue, such as:
Alarm
Oven
Hob
Boiler
Motorized valve

Also the fault may be related to the wiring of the house and not what you have plugged in/connected. This is where your electrician can assist.

Yea, it would be good to check for instance of the immersion is not working during this power off fault but the RCD has remained on. In other words, confirm everything on the top row of MCB`s has gone off, when the RCD has remained on, but the power has been interrupted on sockets.

Sometimes RCD`s, or MCB`s can trip but the outside switch stays up, but in these cases the fault wont reset. But the RCD could have contact problems.

Fair enough, but a neutral to earth fault within this could still be causing the RCD to operate. In theory the immersion switch should not permit this to happen when in the off position (as the switch should be double pole). In practice this may be different.

It shouldnt if its within the immersion itself and if the immersion switch is a proper isolating one and is off though.
EDIT: Just noticed you said that:D

I have found that this type of fault is often caused by water. So I would suggest that you check to see if for example there is a wet socket (behind your washing machine/dish washer).

A good possibility when the RCD is tripping alright.

This fault seems do be like a double fault, a loose connection, and an earth fault. Both could be indications of a problem with the RCD. Or else a loose connection and an earth fault too. Or too many circuits with slight earth leakage adding up as suggested, combined with a loose connection.

Failing that as suggested before, install an additional RCD.

Yes a great idea that one to help find the problem if there is an earth fault, if not, the second RCD might solve that part of the problem anyway. The board could do with a second RCD anyway even with no problems on it.

2011

It shouldnt if its within the immersion itself and if the immersion switch is a proper isolating one and is off though

+1

It shouldn't if wired correctly!

Buford T Justice

I've come across a few cases where the water inlet pipe on a washing machine perishes and has a tiny leak. The water leaks to the electric motor on the machine and every so often it trips...


Worth inspecting.

Bruthal

Thats always possible for an earth fault, but this seems to also have an intermittent off, then back on itself- sort of problem.

Possible a seperate earth fault and a connection problem which could include something like your suggestion. It might well be an earth fault and also a loose connection. Or a faulty RCD.

Or just a loose connection and too many circuits on the single RCD. This loose connection could be the RCD contacts themselves, but will likely be somewhere on/in the RCD or its 4 main flex wires if all sockets are going off and back on themselves. All slight earth leakages will add up on any circuits controlled by an RCD, so a lot of circuits on the single RCD can cause problems.

THENORTHSIDER

poor connection would eventually start burning and would be visable. If your correct when saying nothing is plugged in then it could be a faulty RCD. You could try and change that yourself if you felt competent enough

THENORTHSIDER

possible that you may be inheriting fault from outside your board. Your neighbour isn't doing any type of commercial work in his shed

Bruthal

THENORTHSIDER wrote: »

poor connection would eventually start burning and would be visable. If your correct when saying nothing is plugged in then it could be a faulty RCD. You could try and change that yourself if you felt competent enough

If not much is plugged in, a loose connection could go a fair while without too much burning. It would not be too visible inside an MCB board either.

Intermittent on off problems are often caused by loose connections, whether its a connection in a breaker terminal, or bad contacts in the RCD which is not unheard of. What else would cause the power on sockets to go off, and back on by itself besides a connection problem?

THENORTHSIDER

robbie7730 wrote: »

If not much is plugged in, a loose connection could go a fair while without too much burning. It would not be too visible inside an MCB board either.

Intermittent on off problems are often caused by loose connections, whether its a connection in a breaker terminal, or bad contacts in the RCD which is not unheard of. What else would cause the power on sockets to go off, and back on by itself besides a connection problem?

Changing the RCD would rule out any problem with that both internally and externally. As its on a socket circuit the load should be big enough to generate some level of heat which will discolour the insulation and become visable.

Bruthal

THENORTHSIDER wrote: »

Changing the RCD would rule out any problem with that both internally and externally. As its on a socket circuit the load should be big enough to generate some level of heat which will discolour the insulation and become visable.

Changing the RCD will rule out a loose connection onto itself, and an internal contact problem, as well as a possible tripping fault in it. But a possible loose connection could be on the other ends of any of the 4 wires coming from the RCD to cause all sockets to go from a connection problem.

There are 2 problems apparently. Random power off and back on on sockets, and sometimes the RCD trips. There are too many circuits on that one RCD really.

Also, the loose connection if obvious, may not be visible until the board cover is removed.

Again i would ask, what other problem can cause the power in the sockets to go off, and return by itself, if you suggest it cant be a loose connection or contact problem?