Hibernian pged. another nail in the coffin?

rahin man

Hi all. im a nui pgde graduate (science and biology) and im sick of going from job to job, half hours .. no hours..usual sh1te...interviewing for jobs that are gone to a good hurler anyway etc.

My heart leapt with joy yesterday to see that hibernian will be putting another 150 people a year into the workplace with unrealastic job expectations.

All that is keeping my head above water is that i drive trucks in my spare time. ( and ive a feeling i will be driving them full time soon!!)

Any views ...??

dambarude

It's pretty dire all right...

What I find really annoying is that in every paper I read that in it mentioned that the college seemed to think they'd be helping the situation, because of an expected rise in secondary school numbers.

As long as there's a profit they really don't care. And as overheads would appear to be pretty slim, they'll remain in profit until people truly cop on to the fact that there are no jobs. The amount of people that I hear or read on here saying that they want to go into teach really boggles. It's understandable, but totally unrealistic.

rahin man

ya it does seem to be a bit of a cash machine for them. Making a big deal of how "exclusive" their acceptance policy will be. only taking maths/irish teachers this year.

9000 euros fees x 150 is 1.35m euros a year in fees. Yes they are doing the country a favour all right.....

They flooded the country with primary teachers a few years back. Does anybody know how these people faired job wise?

rainbowtrout

rahin man wrote: »

ya it does seem to be a bit of a cash machine for them. Making a big deal of how "exclusive" their acceptance policy will be. only taking maths/irish teachers this year.

9000 euros fees x 150 is 1.35m euros a year in fees. Yes they are doing the country a favour all right.....

They flooded the country with primary teachers a few years back. Does anybody know how these people faired job wise?

I don't have a problem with Hibernia offering the PGDE if it is as good as the PGDE offered in any of the universities.

Sure, it's not helping the situation, but college graduates have to take some responsibility for themselves too. Plenty of graduates come on here on an almost weekly basis asking about getting into teaching. They are told over and over again that there are very few jobs in it at the moment and they will be lucky if they secure low hours in a school and overall their best bet will be subbing and maternity leaves for the first few years. Some have particularly poor subject combinations (eg. Classics, Latin, SPHE etc) which will be of little use to them when trying to secure a job.

They still go ahead and apply for the course and somehow think that they will be different and they will land the job on full hours.

Let me repeat: there are little or no jobs in teaching and it doesn't matter what PDGE course you do, that fact won't change. Also I wonder has anyone been watching the news for the last three years, public service is getting cut again and again and teaching jobs are being lost, not being created. How anyone thinks doing the PGDE will lead to a secure job in the near future is beyond me.

Being a qualified teacher does not mean that a job will be there for you when you graduate. Look at all our nurses that are heading for the UK and further afield because they can't get work here anymore.

We've had four retirements in our school this year, four teachers on full time hours. We still had two teachers redeployed at the end of the year for part of their hours. Another friend of mine was in a school where she and another teacher were let go at the end of the year and a further four permanent teachers were redeployed out of the school. The situation is not good.

rahin man

Well said rainbow trout.

I was supervising the leaving and talking to other supers every school is over quota. Between 3 supers in 3 city schools they were 20 to be redeployed. thats 20 jobs not going to be in next tuesdays indo!

860 pgde graduates this year from the nui/trinity system plus ul plus the IT's where the fcuk are the jobs??? (not to mention the hibernias!!)

The "myth" of all the jobs next feb??

gaeilgebeo

Completely agree with Rainbowtrout.
The situation is dire and we haven't even reached the tip of the ice-berg. There is a lot worse to come.
I have no problem with anyone doing a PGDE as long as they are fully aware that the chances of securing a job on full hours in the next 10 years will be near on impossible.
I teach in a very large school and we haven't had any fall in numbers yet we are still losing teachers this September.
Learning/Language Support hours have been cut, those teachers are going back into the classroom.
Teachers on secondment/ working for NBSS/SLSS all cut, they also are going back into the classroom.
Retirements are being absorbed into the timetables and not being replaced.
As for a stream of new jobs in February ; wake up!!! That was the beat on the street last year too, never happened.
The reality is, a lot of people retiring were A post holders on 18 hours which are easily absorbed into a schools timetable.
NQTs will be competing with very experienced teachers, who have lost their jobs due to cuts and redeployment, for what little hours will be going in schools.
A lot more cuts down the line. It is scary.

Boober Fraggle

Are there really that many jobs in Irish and Maths?

If hibernia just take in Irish and Maths teachers this year they will flood the system with those teachers.

UnLuckyAgain

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

Are there really that many jobs in Irish and Maths?

If hibernia just take in Irish and Maths teachers this year they will flood the system with those teachers.

Apparently Hibernia are particularly interested in those with Science/Maths degrees and backgrounds so it seems they are responding to market shortages in some way. Though I doubt they'll actively exclude those with other subjects.

As for whether the course is "as good as the PGDE offered in any of the universities", its been accredited by HETAC and the Teaching Council so there's no argument there.

The government are obviously delighted to allow the course to go ahead, as the figures show that Hibernia trains teachers with zero cost to the government, while the traditional training colleges cost nearly 40 million in supports.

jonseyblub

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Completely agree with Rainbowtrout.
The situation is dire and we haven't even reached the tip of the ice-berg. There is a lot worse to come.
I have no problem with anyone doing a PGDE as long as they are fully aware that the chances of securing a job on full hours in the next 10 years will be near on impossible.
I teach in a very large school and we haven't had any fall in numbers yet we are still losing teachers this September.
Learning/Language Support hours have been cut, those teachers are going back into the classroom.
Teachers on secondment/ working for NBSS/SLSS all cut, they also are going back into the classroom.
Retirements are being absorbed into the timetables and not being replaced.
As for a stream of new jobs in February ; wake up!!! That was the beat on the street last year too, never happened.
The reality is, a lot of people retiring were A post holders on 18 hours which are easily absorbed into a schools timetable.
NQTs will be competing with very experienced teachers, who have lost their jobs due to cuts and redeployment, for what little hours will be going in schools.
A lot more cuts down the line. It is scary.

Fully agree with this. To add to all this principals are being asked (no told) to put teachers who dont have experience teaching certain subjects into them. In my school there is a teacher teaching Irish, Geography, CSPE, SPHE, History and Religion where he is only qualified to teach History and Spanish. It's madness. Then down the line they quote these surveys saying that kids have a low level of Irish, maths etc. Is it any wonder when there are unqualified (as in subjects not in degree) teachers teaching them. I have a massive bee in my bonnet about this:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Kimmy-XxX

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't have a problem with Hibernia offering the PGDE if it is as good as the PGDE offered in any of the universities.

Sure, it's not helping the situation, but college graduates have to take some responsibility for themselves too. Plenty of graduates come on here on an almost weekly basis asking about getting into teaching. They are told over and over again that there are very few jobs in it at the moment and they will be lucky if they secure low hours in a school and overall their best bet will be subbing and maternity leaves for the first few years. Some have particularly poor subject combinations (eg. Classics, Latin, SPHE etc) which will be of little use to them when trying to secure a job.

They still go ahead and apply for the course and somehow think that they will be different and they will land the job on full hours.

Let me repeat: there are little or no jobs in teaching and it doesn't matter what PDGE course you do, that fact won't change. Also I wonder has anyone been watching the news for the last three years, public service is getting cut again and again and teaching jobs are being lost, not being created. How anyone thinks doing the PGDE will lead to a secure job in the near future is beyond me.

Being a qualified teacher does not mean that a job will be there for you when you graduate. Look at all our nurses that are heading for the UK and further afield because they can't get work here anymore.

We've had four retirements in our school this year, four teachers on full time hours. We still had two teachers redeployed at the end of the year for part of their hours. Another friend of mine was in a school where she and another
teacher were let go at the end of the year and a further four permanent teachers were redeployed out of the school. The situation is not good.

I have to admit that I find these remarks realistic yet also pessimistic, derogatory and somewhat patronising. I'm planning on doing my PGDE in two years and frankly, teaching is all I've ever wanted to do. I'm absolutely sick of the economy we live in and the limitations it has put on me and others I know but that doesn't mean I'm not going to apply for the PGDE and seek out what I want to do. The only thing that irritates me more than the current state of affairs is people's attitudes toward it.
Here, you are suggesting that it is foolish for a graduate to want to go into teaching and the manner in which you suggest it fosters a notion of superiority and an elitist attitude as, clearly, you are already in a teaching post yourself. Your comments reek of the suggestion - we got in and there's no room for you. It's very easy for educators who have already obtained a job to speak in such a manner. Everybody is accutely aware of the current jobs market but it shouldn't warrant graduates such as myself to decide to give up, emigrate or look for a different profession in which they may not excel or even be remotely good at.
It is not my intention to offend you personally but to help you understand what it feels like to be on the other end of the scale - working incredibly hard for a job you know you would be bloody brilliant at and having people tell you that there is no point in your hard work. It is infuriating to read an attitude that scorns the graduates who want to teach. A PGDE is one of the most difficult, time consuming postgraduate courses you can undertake and nobody expects to walk out of it and into a full time teaching position. However, for those of us who try I would request that you exhibit a little more respect and a little less contempt.

gaeilgebeo

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

I have to admit that I find these remarks realistic yet also pessimistic, derogatory and somewhat patronising. I'm planning on doing my PGDE in two years and frankly, teaching is all I've ever wanted to do. I'm absolutely sick of the economy we live in and the limitations it has put on me and others I know but that doesn't mean I'm not going to apply for the PGDE and seek out what I want to do. The only thing that irritates me more than the current state of affairs is people's attitudes toward it.
Here, you are suggesting that it is foolish for a graduate to want to go into teaching and the manner in which you suggest it fosters a notion of superiority and an elitist attitude as, clearly, you are already in a teaching post yourself. Your comments reek of the suggestion - we got in and there's no room for you. It's very easy for educators who have already obtained a job to speak in such a manner. Everybody is accutely aware of the current jobs market but it shouldn't warrant graduates such as myself to decide to give up, emigrate or look for a different profession in which they may not excel or even be remotely good at.
It is not my intention to offend you personally but to help you understand what it feels like to be on the other end of the scale - working incredibly hard for a job you know you would be bloody brilliant at and having people tell you that there is no point in your hard work. It is infuriating to read an attitude that scorns the graduates who want to teach. A PGDE is one of the most difficult, time consuming postgraduate courses you can undertake and nobody expects to walk out of it and into a full time teaching position. However, for those of us who try I would request that you exhibit a little more respect and a little less contempt.

I think your own post is a little harsh on Rainbowtrout, who is an excellent well-informed contributor to this forum.
I posted something similar and it is in no way intended to be disrespectful,pessimistic, derogatory or patronising.
I too am a permanent teacher, we are on the front-line seeing all of the cuts not just to jobs, but to all aspects of second level education.
Good for you that is accutely aware of the current situation, but many posters aren't.
Every week there are more and more people requesting information on how to transfer into teaching/become a teacher/switch careers into teaching, not realising how tough things really are.
Also, you have NQTs who haven't managed to secure interviews let alone any hours, frustrated and disillusioned at the current situation.
If teaching is what you want to do, and you know you would be "bloody brilliant" at it(don't know how you know this unless you have good experience teaching teenagers!) go for it, fair play to you, but you shouldn't vent your frustrations on genuine posters who are only trying to help. Best of luck with your PGDE.

rahin man

or like me kimmy you could get a truck license and never be out of work:D

rainbowtrout

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

I have to admit that I find these remarks realistic yet also pessimistic, derogatory and somewhat patronising. I'm planning on doing my PGDE in two years and frankly, teaching is all I've ever wanted to do. I'm absolutely sick of the economy we live in and the limitations it has put on me and others I know but that doesn't mean I'm not going to apply for the PGDE and seek out what I want to do. The only thing that irritates me more than the current state of affairs is people's attitudes toward it.
Here, you are suggesting that it is foolish for a graduate to want to go into teaching and the manner in which you suggest it fosters a notion of superiority and an elitist attitude as, clearly, you are already in a teaching post yourself. Your comments reek of the suggestion - we got in and there's no room for you. It's very easy for educators who have already obtained a job to speak in such a manner. Everybody is accutely aware of the current jobs market but it shouldn't warrant graduates such as myself to decide to give up, emigrate or look for a different profession in which they may not excel or even be remotely good at.
It is not my intention to offend you personally but to help you understand what it feels like to be on the other end of the scale - working incredibly hard for a job you know you would be bloody brilliant at and having people tell you that there is no point in your hard work. It is infuriating to read an attitude that scorns the graduates who want to teach. A PGDE is one of the most difficult, time consuming postgraduate courses you can undertake and nobody expects to walk out of it and into a full time teaching position. However, for those of us who try I would request that you exhibit a little more respect and a little less contempt.

But you just have offended me. You suggest my comments are elitist, derogatory, patronising and that I have notions of superiority. Maybe you'll read some of my other contributions to the forum and have a rethink.

There are some people who have always wanted to teach and go to college with the notion of doing a degree and becoming a teacher. That's fair enough. I'm assuming you fall into this category.

However there are tons of graduates who finish college or are in final year and go 'I have no idea what I'll do next year, oh I know I'll do the PGDE, teaching looks like a handy number' and come on here looking for information. There are those who are enraged because their degree is not recognised by the Teaching Council, and seem to think automatically because they have a degree they should be allowed to teach. There are those who seem to be under the impression because they have a degree in say English and History, but they did French for their Leaving Cert that somehow they are entitled to teach French in school. There are those who come on here having being accepted onto the PGDE with a combination something like Spanish (minority subject) and Classics (even more minor) and then complain that they can't get enough hours in a school for their teaching practice and somehow it's everyone elses fault that they have a crap subject combination.

I'm not being elitist and saying the door should close because I've got a job, I've had a job for the last 10 years. One of my friends (the one I referred to in my previous post) graduated with me 10 years ago, and this year, yet again finds herself unemployed. So if she's having difficulty securing work despite a wealth of experience, graduates should be well aware how tough the job market is in teaching at the moment.

If anyone wants to go and do the PGDE at the moment, they are free to do so. I'm just saying that they shouldn't have high expectations at the end because there is very little work out there at the moment.

I would being giving the same advice to anyone considering enrolling in a course in architecture.

And just to add to the point that plenty of others have made about jobs being freed up in 2012 with a rash of retirements. The retirements will come but the hours will be absorbed for the most part by teachers that are already in the school on part time hours. Few jobs will be created as a result, and those that are created will be on low hours as hours are dished out to existing teachers.

If you are willing to accept all of this as reality Kimia, by all means do the PGDE, I hope you get a job. I'm just saying it's going to be very tough.

Come back here in September or October, there will be a few threads created by newly qualified teachers who have just finished the PGDE. They will be of the type 'I've applied for every job I've seen in the paper and online. I've sent my CV to 200 schools and I haven't even got one reply, I'm getting really disheartened and I'm wondering if I wasted my time doing the PGDE last year'

It's horrible to see, but it's reality.

I'm saying all of these things because I've seen 5 teachers lose their jobs through cut backs in my school in the last 3 years. Four (including this year) have been redeployed for part of their hours and despite a rake of retirements we are still losing staff. They are not being replaced at the same rate as we are losing them. I've been on this forum for four years and I've seen these threads come up on this forum like clockwork year in year out every year. From Jan- May it's all about waiting for PDGE offers and the rest of the year it's about applying for the PGDE for the following year. Jobs in teaching were starting to dry up before the arse fell out of the economy. Now it's just getting worse and worse.



EDIT: I've just gone to the first page of the forum to have a look at a sample of the threads that are there and see was there any asking questions about doing PGDE etc. I've just spotted one by yourself Kimia, so I'm just wondering if it was you that took my post personally rather than anything else. I notice your subject combination is English and Classics. I've said my bit on Classics. If you are going to do the PGDE, the best thing you could do for yourself in the next year or two is get a qualification in another more mainstream subject. I've seen your comments that you want to get more recognition for the subject. But as you said yourself, with only 11 schools offering it, that is going to be very difficult. Realistically you will be marketing yourself currently as an English teacher. There is a huge surplus of English teachers so if you can get yourself another subject that is probably your best course of action currently.

rainbowtrout

UnLuckyAgain wrote: »

Apparently Hibernia are particularly interested in those with Science/Maths degrees and backgrounds so it seems they are responding to market shortages in some way. Though I doubt they'll actively exclude those with other subjects.

As for whether the course is "as good as the PGDE offered in any of the universities", its been accredited by HETAC and the Teaching Council so there's no argument there.

The government are obviously delighted to allow the course to go ahead, as the figures show that Hibernia trains teachers with zero cost to the government, while the traditional training colleges cost nearly 40 million in supports.

Ya, I wasn't really suggesting that Hibernia wasn't up to scratch, just saying if it's accredited then it should be allowed to run.

I don't actually have a huge issue with Hibernia, if teachers are coming out with the same qualification as the other colleges, it's great because it offers people that bit more flexibility in gaining a qualification. I'm living in Roscommon and have been looking for a suitable masters course for the last couple of years (I've found one now). I've been very restricted in terms of location and the mode of study and the types of course on offer. My nearest college is Sligo IT and they have nothing part-time/evening/distance that would suit or interest me. Plenty of courses in Dublin that I would be interested in but not suitable because of location etc. So Hibernia is good on that end of things for people that can't uproot and move to Galway/Cork/Dublin/Maynooth to do the PGDE and perhaps have a family to support etc.

I suspect also that Hibernia are targeting the subjects where there are perceived shortages because come next year or whenever their first class graduate, they might possibly have a higher percentage of students engaged in teaching posts in comparison to the universities. It would look good for them and perhaps lend some weight to their qualification. 'Doing the Hibernia PGDE gives you a better chance of getting a job' or 'Hibernia graduates are more likely to gain employment in the teaching sector in their first year out than students from other colleges' Statistics can be used to prove anything.

lellskells

rainbowtrout, you say there are perceived shortages, but in your opinion are there shortages in the sciences? my eyes are wide open to the miserable career propects for new teachers. I am circa 12 months from jumping into a PGDE (with 3 kids under 6:eek:) but desperately wanting to teach. Have clocked up 12 -13 years in industry, bored to tears but also need to pay the bills. My subjects are Ag science and Biology. Have read alot of your posts since joining and do think you have alot of valid points/experience. I also think you got a hard time for the earlier poster:( tks

gaeilgebeo

lellskells wrote: »

rainbowtrout, you say there are perceived shortages, but in your opinion are there shortages in the sciences? my eyes are wide open to the miserable career propects for new teachers. I am circa 12 months from jumping into a PGDE (with 3 kids under 6:eek:) but desperately wanting to teach. Have clocked up 12 -13 years in industry, bored to tears but also need to pay the bills. My subjects are Ag science and Biology. Have read alot of your posts since joining and do think you have alot of valid points/experience. I also think you got a hard time for the earlier poster:( tks

I am not a science teacher but I think the days of shortages in any subject are coming to an end.
Irish was always said to be a great subject to have, but I have a sister and a friend both looking for Irish positions this year and things are not good. .
It's partly to do with the cuts and redeployment.
With regard to science, I know several schools, my own included who are dropping science subjects at Leaving Cert level, ie only offering Biology as opposed to Biology, Chemistry and Physics.
Ag Science is also not offered in many schools.

rainbowtrout

lellskells wrote: »

rainbowtrout, you say there are perceived shortages, but in your opinion are there shortages in the sciences? my eyes are wide open to the miserable career propects for new teachers. I am circa 12 months from jumping into a PGDE (with 3 kids under 6:eek:) but desperately wanting to teach. Have clocked up 12 -13 years in industry, bored to tears but also need to pay the bills. My subjects are Ag science and Biology. Have read alot of your posts since joining and do think you have alot of valid points/experience. I also think you got a hard time for the earlier poster:( tks

Hard to say. We found it difficult to get a sub for a physics maternity leave on two occasions. I'm not sure if it would be so hard now.

Ag Science is a subject growing in numbers. There's nearly 7000 doing the subject now, in comparison with just over 3000 seven or eight years ago. So there may be jobs in that area. However, there are plenty of people qualified in Ag Science. Anyone coming out of UL with the Science Education degree (which is what I have) has Ag Science, Biology and either Chemistry or Physics. More and more schools are bringing it in, but - and this is only anecdotal - from what I've seen and heard from other teachers that I'm friends with, a lot of the time the biology teachers in the school are getting landed with the subject whether they are qualified or not, simply because the school is not in a position to hire another teacher and if they do, they will have to let one of their current staff go.


It may also be the case that schools are choosing to bring in the subject because of it's increase in popularity and they happen to have a teacher on staff who is qualified in the subject. There are also more UCD Ag Science graduates starting to apply for the PGDE. We had one of them for her teaching practice this year and she said there were 7 of them doing the PDGE in Ag Science in NUIG this year and it was the first time NUIG had anyone doing the PGDE in Ag. So it appears that people have cottoned on to it becoming more popular.

Looking at the jobs on educationcareers.ie just now would suggest that there are science jobs out there, but there are lots of graduates. Also I imagine you will be fairly confined to one area if you have children.

So it's really hard to say.

Kimmy-XxX

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But you just have offended me. You suggest my comments are elitist, derogatory, patronising and that I have notions of superiority. Maybe you'll read some of my other contributions to the forum and have a rethink.

There are some people who have always wanted to teach and go to college with the notion of doing a degree and becoming a teacher. That's fair enough. I'm assuming you fall into this category.

However there are tons of graduates who finish college or are in final year and go 'I have no idea what I'll do next year, oh I know I'll do the PGDE, teaching looks like a handy number' and come on here looking for information. There are those who are enraged because their degree is not recognised by the Teaching Council, and seem to think automatically because they have a degree they should be allowed to teach. There are those who seem to be under the impression because they have a degree in say English and History, but they did French for their Leaving Cert that somehow they are entitled to teach French in school. There are those who come on here having being accepted onto the PGDE with a combination something like Spanish (minority subject) and Classics (even more minor) and then complain that they can't get enough hours in a school for their teaching practice and somehow it's everyone elses fault that they have a crap subject combination.

I'm not being elitist and saying the door should close because I've got a job, I've had a job for the last 10 years. One of my friends (the one I referred to in my previous post) graduated with me 10 years ago, and this year, yet again finds herself unemployed. So if she's having difficulty securing work despite a wealth of experience, graduates should be well aware how tough the job market is in teaching at the moment.

If anyone wants to go and do the PGDE at the moment, they are free to do so. I'm just saying that they shouldn't have high expectations at the end because there is very little work out there at the moment.

I would being giving the same advice to anyone considering enrolling in a course in architecture.

And just to add to the point that plenty of others have made about jobs being freed up in 2012 with a rash of retirements. The retirements will come but the hours will be absorbed for the most part by teachers that are already in the school on part time hours. Few jobs will be created as a result, and those that are created will be on low hours as hours are dished out to existing teachers.

If you are willing to accept all of this as reality Kimia, by all means do the PGDE, I hope you get a job. I'm just saying it's going to be very tough.

Come back here in September or October, there will be a few threads created by newly qualified teachers who have just finished the PGDE. They will be of the type 'I've applied for every job I've seen in the paper and online. I've sent my CV to 200 schools and I haven't even got one reply, I'm getting really disheartened and I'm wondering if I wasted my time doing the PGDE last year'

It's horrible to see, but it's reality.

I'm saying all of these things because I've seen 5 teachers lose their jobs through cut backs in my school in the last 3 years. Four (including this year) have been redeployed for part of their hours and despite a rake of retirements we are still losing staff. They are not being replaced at the same rate as we are losing them. I've been on this forum for four years and I've seen these threads come up on this forum like clockwork year in year out every year. From Jan- May it's all about waiting for PDGE offers and the rest of the year it's about applying for the PGDE for the following year. Jobs in teaching were starting to dry up before the arse fell out of the economy. Now it's just getting worse and worse.



EDIT: I've just gone to the first page of the forum to have a look at a sample of the threads that are there and see was there any asking questions about doing PGDE etc. I've just spotted one by yourself Kimia, so I'm just wondering if it was you that took my post personally rather than anything else. I notice your subject combination is English and Classics. I've said my bit on Classics. If you are going to do the PGDE, the best thing you could do for yourself in the next year or two is get a qualification in another more mainstream subject. I've seen your comments that you want to get more recognition for the subject. But as you said yourself, with only 11 schools offering it, that is going to be very difficult. Realistically you will be marketing yourself currently as an English teacher. There is a huge surplus of English teachers so if you can get yourself another subject that is probably your best course of action currently.

Fist of all, I have to start with an apology if I have offended you. I don't personally know you and thus have no right to make assumptions about the sort of person you are or to attack you based on those assumptions.
In hindsight, replying after immediately reading your original post probably fuelled an angry response but I do feel that a teacher commenting on how undergrads shouldn't do the PGDE because of employment prospects is a little hard to take. Your comments did come across as elitist but, as I've said, I don't know you personally and would never assume to claim that you as a person are elitist or derogatory. From the position of someone fighting to get into a very small job market, being told by someone who's already in that you shouldn't bother does make me feel like I'm bring patronised.

I completely agree with your remarks about the 'tons of graduates' who find themselves with an undergrad degree and decide to undertake teaching, thinking it'll be an easy job. I volunteer extensively in this sector and am fully aware of how extremely difficult it is. The idea of an undergrad who does the PGDE because they conceive of it as an easy option drives me mad. It's flooding the sector with individuals who aren't really bothered and deprives passionate teachers of good positions simply because there are so many candidates for each job. So yes, I completely see where you're coming from here and it is infuriating that people think of teaching as a handy number - it isn't, it's extremely difficult and takes a very specific type of person. I've seen this, I've worked with teenagers in an educational capacity and good teachers are absolute heroes. I reckon if undergrads knew this and put in time volunteering in schools, they would think again about doing the PGDE and becoming a teacher because (and I'm quoting people I personally know here) "the hours are so handy!"

Having said all that, your original post annoyed me so much because you seemed to tar all undergrads wanting to teach with the same brush: "They still go ahead and apply for the course and somehow think that they will be different and they will land the job on full hours." Having read that you understand there are people who genuinely want to teach and are consistently willing to do what it takes to come out as a fantastic teacher, I know you don't actually conceive of us all as doing the PGDE because it's handy.

Like I said, I just wanted to make you understand what it's like being the person trying to get into the business and being constantly told that there's no room. It was never my intention to start an argument or insult you personally, I wanted you to understand how some of your comments sounded elitist and patronising to a person who is working very hard to become a teacher.

What I know of you from boards fosters an idea of a very intelligent person and that you are a teacher only heightens my respect for you. Who knows, some day (if I'm very lucky and these shortages eventually go away) we may meet in a professional capacity! I do hope that we can leave our disagreements here and as I have admitted being a little too hot headed when replying I hope you can concede that your comments are very difficult for someone in my position to take. I understand the climate, I know how difficult it will be but all I ask is that you and others understand that some of us want to teach because of a sincere respect for the profession, a desire to educate young people and an accute passion for our subjects.

Thank you for your advice about my subject combination. It is genuinely appreciated and is something I will give considerable thought. Again and most importantly, apologies for any personal offence, it was not intentional.

rainbowtrout

Kimmy-XxX wrote: »

Having said all that, your original post annoyed me so much because you seemed to tar all undergrads wanting to teach with the same brush: "They still go ahead and apply for the course and somehow think that they will be different and they will land the job on full hours." Having read that you understand there are people who genuinely want to teach and are consistently willing to do what it takes to come out as a fantastic teacher, I know you don't actually conceive of us all as doing the PGDE because it's handy.

Fair enough. The people I was referring to are the people who think teaching is a handy number.

I understand that there are people who genuinely want to teach. I've read your posts about your extensive voluntary work. You want to teach, there's no doubt about that.

I would be looking at it in a more realistic fashion. There's following your dream and there's a need to put food on the table. I'm lucky, I have a permanent job, but if I didn't and I had been let go this summer, I wouldn't think twice about heading over to the MBNA call centre (biggest employer in this area) and asking for a job. I would still be applying for teaching jobs but I have bills to pay and I'd be doing whatever it takes to pay the mortgage etc. I wouldn't be holding out for regular hours which would be enough for me to live on.

khan86

jonseyblub wrote: »

Fully agree with this. To add to all this principals are being asked (no told) to put teachers who dont have experience teaching certain subjects into them. In my school there is a teacher teaching Irish, Geography, CSPE, SPHE, History and Religion where he is only qualified to teach History and Spanish. It's madness. Then down the line they quote these surveys saying that kids have a low level of Irish, maths etc. Is it any wonder when there are unqualified (as in subjects not in degree) teachers teaching them. I have a massive bee in my bonnet about this:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Have to agree with you on this one. This practice of teachers teaching subjects they are not qualified in calls into question the whole professionalism and quality assurance of teaching in the same way that the principals unqualified son/daughter/niece/99th cousin getting subbing hours over a qualified teacher does. Plenty of schools in the country have religion teachers who have no clue about teaching religious education apart from being avid mass/church-goers while the gobsh1tes like me who did a 4 year theology degree and want to educate people on the facts and fiction rather than indoctrinate (as has been the age old method in this country) won't be able to get R.E. hours. But if I'd done only English, History, Geography, Irish or practically any other subject as my undergrad they'd be practically forcing me to take R.E. hours aswell regardless of whether I did it in my degree or not. I understand what has been said about certain subjects being a bad combination like Latin and Spanish etc. as they are not in high demand but Religion is taught (practically forced, whether rightly or wrongly) in almost every school in the country yet the majority of R.E. teachers are not qualified in the subject. Yet another flaw in the system.

Posting at 03:20 in the morning = not being able to sleep with anxiety about the Trinity PGDE results being out tomorrow :eek:

Tigerbaby

just browsing here. I feel your pain. try not to worry. I've a bad back and cant sleep, hence my presence. I'm old too.

I have found in life, that open doors and chances are all around you. No matter what a piece of paper says.

Best of luck to you.

rainbowtrout

khan86 wrote: »

Have to agree with you on this one. This practice of teachers teaching subjects they are not qualified in calls into question the whole professionalism and quality assurance of teaching in the same way that the principals unqualified son/daughter/niece/99th cousin getting subbing hours over a qualified teacher does. Plenty of schools in the country have religion teachers who have no clue about teaching religious education apart from being avid mass/church-goers while the gobsh1tes like me who did a 4 year theology degree and want to educate people on the facts and fiction rather than indoctrinate (as has been the age old method in this country) won't be able to get R.E. hours. But if I'd done only English, History, Geography, Irish or practically any other subject as my undergrad they'd be practically forcing me to take R.E. hours aswell regardless of whether I did it in my degree or not. I understand what has been said about certain subjects being a bad combination like Latin and Spanish etc. as they are not in high demand but Religion is taught (practically forced, whether rightly or wrongly) in almost every school in the country yet the majority of R.E. teachers are not qualified in the subject. Yet another flaw in the system.

Posting at 03:20 in the morning = not being able to sleep with anxiety about the Trinity PGDE results being out tomorrow :eek:

Ya practically everyone in my school (slight exaggeration but maybe half to two-thirds) has had religion on their timetable at some stage. I'm in the minority that haven't. One of the few teachers that was qualified in religion was let go two years ago.

It's not fair, but principals are always going to keep on teachers with exam subjects ( I know religion is now an exam subject, but it is still very much in the minority) above religion teachers.

khan86

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya practically everyone in my school (slight exaggeration but maybe half to two-thirds) has had religion on their timetable at some stage. I'm in the minority that haven't. One of the few teachers that was qualified in religion was let go two years ago.

It's not fair, but principals are always going to keep on teachers with exam subjects ( I know religion is now an exam subject, but it is still very much in the minority) above religion teachers.

Yeah and you're school is one of many that does that. It is very unfair, and while it is not a senior exam subject in every school all students in almost all schools are timetabled for 2/3 classes a week anyway so I find it hard to understand why the demand for suitably qualified teachers in the subject area is so low. We all know that there are many teachers teaching subjects they are not qualified in, none of us would be particularly happy if our kids were being taught English, Irish, Maths etc by someone who is not qualified so why do we work alongside it? Its always being debated about certain teachers who are permanent and can't be touched being sub-standard giving the rest of the good, hard-working teachers a bad name but what about the teachers who are forced to take subjects they are not qualified in and are struggling with it and this is reflected in the students results and progress. I think this needs to be addressed.

rahin man

Rainbowtrout.

im actually an ag science graduate and did the pgde in nuig a few years back and i had to take geography as my second subject as they did not have an elective.

There is a bit of tension building between ucd ag graduates and the ul people as regards teaching ag science!!!. In the past 2 years the leaving cert had "new" questions on it and you would actually need an ag degree to understand/teach it.

Am i starting a new "row" on this thread??

rainbowtrout

rahin man wrote: »

Rainbowtrout.

im actually an ag science graduate and did the pgde in nuig a few years back and i had to take geography as my second subject as they did not have an elective.

There is a bit of tension building between ucd ag graduates and the ul people as regards teaching ag science!!!. In the past 2 years the leaving cert had "new" questions on it and you would actually need an ag degree to understand/teach it.

Am i starting a new "row" on this thread??

Possibly. And I'll keep it short so as not to derail the thread. I'm a UL graduate and teach ag science. I've seen the new questions cropping up on the papers and I think really it's an insult to the UL graduates to suggest that they couldn't teach the course without having done the UCD degree, let alone understand the questions.

For what it's worth, I'm one of the authors of the new ag science textbook that most schools will be using next year. The other author is also a UL graduate. We've had a great response all over.

rahin man

fair play.

poor old georges book was a bit out of date.

did ye put meat and bonemeal as a good source of protein on this new book?

would you say if a non maths graduate wrote the new leaving cert project maths book there would be no problems either?

rainbowtrout

rahin man wrote: »

fair play.

poor old georges book was a bit out of date.

did ye put meat and bonemeal as a good source of protein on this new book?

would you say if a non maths graduate wrote the new leaving cert project maths book there would be no problems either?

I don't appreciate the sly digs. I'm qualified in ag science, that's all you need to know. I'm guessing by your post that you don't think I'm suitably qualified or that I haven't done any research and that all our information came from the back of a cornflakes box. You'd be very much mistaken there. Perhaps you are just bitter because you don't have a job at the moment and you feel that those UL graduates are stealing jobs which belong to you.

Perhaps you've also missed the point that not only does a person have to have a suitable background in the subject to be able to write a book, but they also have to write it in such a way that makes it user friendly both for teachers and students. And I think we've done that.

You're not going to make yourself any friends in the ag science world any time soon if you continue to slag off UL graduates.

In all the time I've posted on here I've never seen anything so childish in the Teaching forum. Your post is basically summed up by 'My degree is better than yours'. Cop on.

I'm qualified in Maths as well. Maybe I'll write a project maths book and send it you for your approval. Will that satisfy you?

Toto Wolfcastle

rainbowtrout and rahin man, if you have a problem with a post please report it.

rahin man, snide comments are not appreciated here.

This thread is about Hibernia, not whether or not someone is qualified to teach Ag Science or not.

Any further off-topic posting will result in an infraction or a ban. This includes replying to this warning. Any problems, PM me but do not reply to this warning on-thread.

gaeilgebeo

rahin man wrote: »

fair play.

poor old georges book was a bit out of date.

did ye put meat and bonemeal as a good source of protein on this new book?

would you say if a non maths graduate wrote the new leaving cert project maths book there would be no problems either?

Thankfully you are not teaching teenagers at the moment.
You've a lot of growing up to do.

On topic, If Hibernia want to make money on the PGDE, then so be it, as long as the applicants are aware of the current job situation and aren't entering it with any false hopes.

Lockstep

rainbowtrout wrote: »

However there are tons of graduates who finish college or are in final year and go 'I have no idea what I'll do next year, oh I know I'll do the PGDE, teaching looks like a handy number' and come on here looking for information. There are those who are enraged because their degree is not recognised by the Teaching Council, and seem to think automatically because they have a degree they should be allowed to teach. There are those who seem to be under the impression because they have a degree in say English and History, but they did French for their Leaving Cert that somehow they are entitled to teach French in school. There are those who come on here having being accepted onto the PGDE with a combination something like Spanish (minority subject) and Classics (even more minor) and then complain that they can't get enough hours in a school for their teaching practice and somehow it's everyone elses fault that they have a crap subject combination.

I recently graduated (although I have no desire to become a teacher myself) and can +1 the mentality you describe above. It's a bit worrying how many people see teaching as a fall back rather than a vocation.

rahin man

I will accept my beating and crawl back under my rock. only to emerge every 4 or 5 years to use my senate vote.

Im sorry for questioning any body...

rainbowtrout

Lockstep wrote: »

I recently graduated (although I have no desire to become a teacher myself) and can +1 the mentality you describe above. It's a bit worrying how many people see teaching as a fall back rather than a vocation.

Ya, I'm not so sure there is any other profession in the country that is used as a fall back quite so much. I never hear people going 'I haven't a clue what to do with my life, oh I know, I'll be a nurse/solicitor/accountant/whatever'

Maybe it harks back to the fact that everyone has been through the education system so they all think because they've been a student that they know what is involved in teaching....

looksee

I am a bit bemused that an experienced teacher, in the system, should be accused of elitism apparently because she has a job. What is (s)he supposed to say? 'Yes, its a wonderful job, do the qualification and you will be sure to get work?' How would that help anyone?

If there are no jobs it is not the fault of anyone already teaching, but they would have a good idea of how many people are being redeployed, who is teaching what, and so on. It is great to have a vision and a genuine desire to teach, but sadly that will not create jobs where there are none.

rainbowtrout

looksee wrote: »

I am a bit bemused that an experienced teacher, in the system, should be accused of elitism apparently because she has a job. What is (s)he supposed to say? 'Yes, its a wonderful job, do the qualification and you will be sure to get work?' How would that help anyone?

If there are no jobs it is not the fault of anyone already teaching, but they would have a good idea of how many people are being redeployed, who is teaching what, and so on. It is great to have a vision and a genuine desire to teach, but sadly that will not create jobs where there are none.

Again only just opinion, but I suspect that if all PGDE/teacher training degrees were suspended for one year that there would still be enough teachers in the country to fill any vacancies that arise this summer from currently unemployed qualified teachers and qualified teachers who are currently working in other areas of employment through lack of choice.

mimmi

I'm not a teacher, I work in adult guidance area and while I could say 'good on Hibernia' for offering a part-time pathway to a teaching qualification, I share the concerns expressed on this thread.

I am constantly amazed at graduates who have the vaguest notion of the teaching job market, let alone the demands of teaching as a profession. I am sure Hibernia will have people happy to part with €8.5K, but the timing couldn't be worse in terms of job potential, not that it's ever been great.

Rosita

mimmi wrote: »

I'm not a teacher, I work in adult guidance area and while I could say 'good on Hibernia' for offering a part-time pathway to a teaching qualification, I share the concerns expressed on this thread.

Just for the record, DCU offers a 'part-time pathway to a teaching qualification' and has done for some years. While it will facilitate higher numbers to qualify, Hibernia is offering nothing new on any level.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Just for the record, DCU offers a 'part-time pathway to a teaching qualification' and has done for some years. While it will facilitate higher numbers to qualify, Hibernia is offering nothing new on any level.

But to be fair, while DCU offers the course part time, it runs the lectures a couple of evenings midweek (just had a look at the course ) from 5-8pm. Unless you have flexible working hours or live in Dublin or in the surrounding areas it's not of much use.

You can live anywhere in the country and do the Hibernia course.

I've mentioned something similar already. If you live in a rural part of the country, access to courses in a part time basis is very limited based on what you are interested in, travel time to colleges and when courses are run.

mimmi

Rosita wrote: »

Just for the record, DCU offers a 'part-time pathway to a teaching qualification' and has done for some years. While it will facilitate higher numbers to qualify, Hibernia is offering nothing new on any level.

Initially DCU marketed that course to those working 'unqualified' in secondary and also in other areas like Youthreach, VECs etc.

Hibernia is going to be attractive to the mature career changer, you dont need experience or need to clock up the points required by the PAC application system...and you can do it from any location in Ireland.

So from my perspective it's a different offer.

keithmiketom

I have been an Art teacher for 7 year between different school. My job first went with cutbacks, and in the second school I was in I was cut because of panel redeployment. I would be lucky to get 10 hours this year anywhere and I wold be happy enough with that. However, with 85 graduates coming online, as well as about 20 people I know personally myself who have lost their jobs because their subject was cut or absorption of hours, when as I have counted so far there have been about 10 art jobs advertised, 2 with as little as 4 hours, and realistically half of them are already gone, I am more than a little annoyed to hear LSAD and CCAD have upped their numbers on the HDip. There are no art jobs so why are they training more and more Art Teachers?

rainbowtrout

keithmiketom wrote: »

I have been an Art teacher for 7 year between different school. My job first went with cutbacks, and in the second school I was in I was cut because of panel redeployment. I would be lucky to get 10 hours this year anywhere and I wold be happy enough with that. However, with 85 graduates coming online, as well as about 20 people I know personally myself who have lost their jobs because their subject was cut or absorption of hours, when as I have counted so far there have been about 10 art jobs advertised, 2 with as little as 4 hours, and realistically half of them are already gone, I am more than a little annoyed to hear LSAD and CCAD have upped their numbers on the HDip. There are no art jobs so why are they training more and more Art Teachers?

Easy money. Graduates pay in the region of 6k for a course with little overheads for the colleges. It's of little consequence to the college if you get a job or not afterwards.

keithmiketom

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Easy money. Graduates pay in the region of 6k for a course with little overheads for the colleges. It's of little consequence to the college if you get a job or not afterwards.

I guess. its still morally wrong.