Aston Villa Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14

COYVB

Saab Ed wrote: »

Higuan deal looking off. Lot of people saying he's off to Arsenal.

Wenger won't pay the kind of money Villa will want. There's only one place he's going, and it's to Chelsea as Mourinho's new Drogba alongside Lukaku

Saab Ed

COYVB wrote: »

Wenger won't pay the kind of money Villa will want. There's only one place he's going, and it's to Chelsea as Mourinho's new Drogba alongside Lukaku

He won't have to. Lerner is hopeless at extracting teeth. If he was a Spurs or United player right now then he'd be worth a lot more simply because their boardroom know how to play this game better.

COYVB

Saab Ed wrote: »

He won't have to. Lerner is hopeless at extracting teeth. If he was a Spurs or United player right now then he'd be worth a lot more simply because their boardroom know how to play this game better.

Villa got the guts of 20m apiece for Downing and Young, both with 2 years left on their contracts and mid 20s. Benteke is early 20s with 3 years to go on his deal. I'd say Lerner has done quite well in terms of the value from sales. Young for 18m, Downing for 18-20m, milner for 24m (though 8m of that was Ireland), Barry for 12m after getting an extra year out of him...

Not sure where the idea we're not good at getting decent money has come from

matrim

Saab Ed wrote: »

He won't have to. Lerner is hopeless at extracting teeth. If he was a Spurs or United player right now then he'd be worth a lot more simply because their boardroom know how to play this game better.

The thing is that when it comes to selling our top players he hasn't done too badly. We got £15m for Young in the last year of his contract, 12m for Barry in the last year of his contract, 20m for Downing and 20m + Ireland (valued at 7m) for Milner.

The only really bad deal there was the Ireland part of the Milner deal, if it was a straight 27m for Milner it would have been a good deal.

The young deal could have been better but again last year of his contract, so hard to play hard ball.

The problem has been that he hasn't re-invested that money, because of the inflated wage bill and paying off some of the MON transfers. Hopefully this year because the wage bill is back in check, we can actually re-invest the money (although I'm still not holding my breath for that to happen)

Easy Rod

I'm absolutely gutted, I was adamant that he would 100% stay this season. More fool me.

Like the way the statement says 'within a suitable timeframe' meaning we will only sell him if we have time to replace.

CSF

This Saab Ed just comes across as plain not liking Villa.

COYVB

Easy Rod wrote: »

I'm absolutely gutted, I was adamant that he would 100% stay this season. More fool me.

Like the way the statement says 'within a suitable timeframe' meaning we will only sell him if we have time to replace.

The club did very well with that statement IMO. Whether they carry through on it remains to be seen

Raekwon

This was fairly predictable but I was still slightly shocked when I read the statement. I'm feeling very disappointed right now though.

Hopefully we can get around £20m+ for him or if Chelsea are in for him we should try and get Lukaku in an exchange deal, even though I can't see that happening, unless Jose has another striker lined up.

COYVB

Raekwon wrote: »

This was fairly predictable but I was still slightly shocked when I read the statement. I'm feeling very disappointed right now though.

Hopefully we can get around £20m+ for him or if Chelsea are in for him we should try and get Lukaku in an exchange deal, even though I can't see that happening, unless Jose has another striker lined up.

TBH, if we wanted Lukaku in a swap deal, we'd probably need to be giving them Benteke plus cash

Neil3030

I honestly thought we'd get a second season out of him, feck it anyway.

Kendrick must be bulling that the one scoop the club give him is the one thing Villa fans DIDN'T want to hear this year!

Corholio

Very disappointed, he he rots in the reserves wherever he goes now.

Should be asking a premium for him, not a realistic valuation. He'd be worth more to Villa than most teams.

£25m minimum.

Is it within the rules to get CSF banned for this :mad: :pac:

GavRedKing

Weve already spent decent money on the new drogba in lukaku theres no way I can see benteke ending up at stamford bridge this season.

Corholio

Where's John Gregory's gun when you need it?

Doodee

No chance this is a Rooney'esque tactic to get a better contract?
He's a smart lad and would know that he needs 1st team football to get to the WC.

jimmy the car

The thing is, IF he doesn't go this pre season, Lambert will still use him up front and if he plays like he did last year it will only increase his valuation come January time and we still hold all the cards, with 2 1/2 years left in his contract then can easily ask for 30 mil then.....can't see Lambert being that naive though and I'm sure he has had his sounts out for a while now eyeing up likely replacements

BUNK1982

We should be expecting 27/28m for Benteke at the very least. I really thought we would keep a hold of him given that it's coming up to the world cup but there you go.

No point in keeping him, I would be surprised however if Lambert hadn't countenanced and does not have some replacements lined up.

Neil3030

Only point in keeping him would be as a gamble, in order to discourage this sort of behaviour from players in the future, and also to send a message to clubs higher up than Villa that they can't just swan in as they like and poach anyone that takes their fancy.

However this may also discourage young players from joining outright, if they feel as though they may never leave!

jimmy the car

Who know's maybe this spin over to Germany could unearth someone he's been keeping an eye on from afar and could be our Benteke v.2....

Paulegend

BUNK1982 wrote: »

We should be expecting 27/28m for Benteke at the very least. I really thought we would keep a hold of him given that it's coming up to the world cup but there you go.

No point in keeping him, I would be surprised however if Lambert hadn't countenanced and does not have some replacements lined up.

not a hope

sturridge scored 11 in 16 for liverpool does that mean he is worth 30 million all of a sudden??

id say that ye will make double the profit on him and the fee might go up as high as 19 or 20 million but i think ye will recieve offers of around the 15 mark. purely because he handed in a transfer request. hense rooney is up for sale for about 20 million(even though moyes would publicly disagree.

even with a great season behind him i cant see teams willing to take a huge chance on him and now im getting the feeling that all the speculation up to now has been drummed up by his agent.

Various links
Liverpool - just sold andy carroll because rogers doesnt want or like target men or strong strikers that arent versatile ala sturridge, suarez, aspas. just think milan baros or gabby compared to dwight york or juan pablo angel. benteke is not a rogers type player.

arsenal - already have a benteke type striker in giroud. they are looking at more versatile strikers that they lost from van persie moving. they have podolski but he isnt scoring enough. thats why they are after rooney suarez and higguain. benteke is not going to arsenal.

chelsea - they have they exact player in lukaku. he is 2 years younger and scored 2 less premier league goals. he is the drogba mould that jose likes and is shortly going to be a "homegrown" player for the club. no team in teh world would have 2 target men type players so i cant see why chelsea would go for him.

city - they will be looking for a striker but i dont think they will leave the window pass without moving for someone like suarez, higg, torres, rooney. i just think they wouldnt think of benteke in the same class.

spurs - i see as a real option. a replacement for adeboyour. the only question is leonardo damiao??

i just cant see how the fee will get about 20 million

listermint

Its all about hype and perception, Of course the fee will be a minimum 20 Million. Thats the way of football regardless of the sturridge comparison you made.

Patser

Maybe it'll all play out like when Barry left us - we got him to stay another season on the promise to let him move with minimal fuss if we didn't get champions league place. I'd say it's Benteke's agent trying to see what offer is out there, with an eye on a move next season and this is just to soften Villa up.

Paulegend

well i think its kinda about his attitude also

if its true that he is putting down tools and refusing to train when he is back from his "holiday" then it would be harder to take a stand and hold out for the price wanted. but if its all rumour and he wants to leave but has no problem being proffessional then villa can hold out for the 25 million aparant price tag they have set.

when masherano left liverpool he refused to play in a champions league qualifier. he forced liverpools hand by refusing to play. therefore we lost a world class defensive mid for 17 million. the same player who at 29 right now could easily fetch that fee if he left barca. he didnt get better at barca. its just that if a player forces a move then the club wont get as much.

if suarez puts in a transfer request he will go for about 30-40 million. if he doenst put in a request then liverpool might get the 50+ mark that they are looking for.


either way its a joke how some players treat their clubs. rooney twice handing in a transfer request. van persie leaving a club that stood by him through all his injured career to go to their rivals. torres leaving liverpool to go to at the time direct rivals. tevez leaving united for city. sol cambell havign a london merry go round with just about every club in the city. ashley cole from arsenal to chelsea. barry milner downing all forcing moves from villa. loyalty is getting very thin these days in football. there are less and less gearrards, nevills and gabbys out there right now.

thats why i think its important that while clubs are bringing in loads of foreign youths they should try to nurture local talent also. its the locals that will have the most loyalty

Neil3030

Paulegend wrote: »

well i think its kinda about his attitude also

if its true that he is putting down tools and refusing to train when he is back from his "holiday" then it would be harder to take a stand and hold out for the price wanted. but if its all rumour and he wants to leave but has no problem being proffessional then villa can hold out for the 25 million aparant price tag they have set.

when masherano left liverpool he refused to play in a champions league qualifier. he forced liverpools hand by refusing to play. therefore we lost a world class defensive mid for 17 million. the same player who at 29 right now could easily fetch that fee if he left barca. he didnt get better at barca. its just that if a player forces a move then the club wont get as much.

if suarez puts in a transfer request he will go for about 30-40 million. if he doenst put in a request then liverpool might get the 50+ mark that they are looking for.


either way its a joke how some players treat their clubs. rooney twice handing in a transfer request. van persie leaving a club that stood by him through all his injured career to go to their rivals. torres leaving liverpool to go to at the time direct rivals. tevez leaving united for city. sol cambell havign a london merry go round with just about every club in the city. ashley cole from arsenal to chelsea. barry milner downing all forcing moves from villa. loyalty is getting very thin these days in football. there are less and less gearrards, nevills and gabbys out there right now.

thats why i think its important that while clubs are bringing in loads of foreign youths they should try to nurture local talent also. its the locals that will have the most loyalty

I completely agree with your point that loyalty doesn't seem to matter a jot these days, but I'm not sure going local is the solution. Three of your examples (Rooney, Campbell and Cole) were all at one point local talent who cast their loyalty aside pretty quick when a bigger club / payday came a-knocking. It's unavoidable, really - the game has evolved to the point where players have complete control and zero sentimentality, once they reach a certain level and possibly even before that.

BUNK1982

Liverpool paid 35m for Andy Carroll - I know he's moved on since for less but it's still set the market for big target men that have had 1 successful season in the EPL. Also Villa are under not under huge pressure to sell given that he has 3 years left on his current contract.

We've done well in selling marquee players recently so I expect to extract the maximum value out of this as well.

Doodee

We don't have to sell, and I would expect PL to call his bluff if he really has threatened to down tools. That won't get you into the national team for a WC.
I'd prefer to keep him at the club until a reasonable fee is reached, and if not then maybe he will reconsidered his agents wisdom. He can look at Bent playing with the youth to see proof that no one player is bigger than the club.
We've strengthened in other area's of the team, and I'm sure Helenius would love the same opportunity to play that Benteke had in his first season.

Neil3030

I'm expecting huge things from Helenius. Though probably it's just because his name sounds like a Greek God.

"HELENIUS - GOD OF DECENT TOUCH FOR A BIG MAN"

GavRedKing

BUNK1982 wrote: »

Liverpool paid 35m for Andy Carroll - I know he's moved on since for less but it's still set the market for big target men that have had 1 successful season in the EPL. Also Villa are under not under huge pressure to sell given that he has 3 years left on his current contract.

We've done well in selling marquee players recently so I expect to extract the maximum value out of this as well.

You wont get 35 million for Benteke though.

Newcastle got 35 million for Carroll becasue, A) it was the last few hours of the transfer window & Liverpool were getting 50million for Torres off Chelsea for the exact same reason Newcastle were getting 35 for Carroll.

Its true Villa dont have to sell Benteke, but its better to cash in now and early in the window to give yereselfs more time to replace him withthe money you've got for him.

Doodee

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its true Villa dont have to sell Benteke, but its better to cash in now and early in the window to give yereselfs more time to replace him withthe money you've got for him.

A replacement can be gotten before he leaves. Net spend so far is still very low, probably the same as last years yet we also got more money for staying up.
Pardew has also declared interest in Bent so if he is just removed from the wage bill that's a month of Benteke's per week saved.
It's not something that should be done out of spite, rather out of principal. I think the message it sends to the other young players who remain loyal such as Weimann that they can come and play for the club and know that it will be rewarded.
Don't get me wrong, its not the transfer request that I'm suggesting this over, but rather the unprofessional downing of tools if its true. Those kind of actions need to be shown as not welcome or entertained by the club.

GavRedKing

Doodee wrote: »

A replacement can be gotten before he leaves. Net spend so far is still very low, probably the same as last years yet we also got more money for staying up.
Pardew has also declared interest in Bent so if he is just removed from the wage bill that's a month of Benteke's per week saved.
It's not something that should be done out of spite, rather out of principal. I think the message it sends to the other young players who remain loyal such as Weimann that they can come and play for the club and know that it will be rewarded.
Don't get me wrong, its not the transfer request that I'm suggesting this over, but rather the unprofessional downing of tools if its true. Those kind of actions need to be shown as not welcome or entertained by the club.

If it is the same situation like his move from Genk then it doesnt show a great attitude from him or his agent TBH.

If Villa spend on the power of the money they'll get for Benteke it could be a good move, a few CF's have moved on recently so getting business done early is vital.

Doodee

GavRedKing wrote: »

If it is the same situation like his move from Genk then it doesnt show a great attitude from him or his agent TBH.

If Villa spend on the power of the money they'll get for Benteke it could be a good move, a few CF's have moved on recently so getting business done early is vital.

Aye, I would hope that is the plan. As some have said we can all hope that PL had foreseen this happen and has suitable replacement already chosen.

GavRedKing

How much money do ya reckonye have to spend on his replacement, will Lerner give the full amount ye get for Benteke to be reinvested?

I'd assume its important to spend the full amount as a quality repalcement who'll score goals wont come cheap.

Corholio

GavRedKing wrote: »

How much money do ya reckonye have to spend on his replacement, will Lerner give the full amount ye get for Benteke to be reinvested?

I'd assume its important to spend the full amount as a quality repalcement who'll score goals wont come cheap.

Won't get the full amount to spend, definitely not. Lerner will wanna clawback some money, even with all the wage cutting.

If Swansea havent wrapped it up yet, I'd throw in a bid for Bony.

jimmy the car

GavRedKing wrote: »

How much money do ya reckonye have to spend on his replacement, will Lerner give the full amount ye get for Benteke to be reinvested?

I'd assume its important to spend the full amount as a quality repalcement who'll score goals wont come cheap.

I don't think he'll spend anything over 10-12 mill going by the way he's spent so far, hopefully whatever funds they get in if he even goes it'll bankroll another striker and maybe playmaker/creative midfielder....

GavRedKing

Corholio wrote: »

Won't get the full amount to spend, definitely not. Lerner will wanna clawback some money, even with all the wage cutting.

Lets say you get 20 million for himand Lerner takes at least 10-12 to cover the transfer and his wages and a bit of profit, do ya reckon you'll get a replacement for the same money ye signed Benteke for?

Theres a decent market there if ye act fast.

Neil3030

GavRedKing wrote: »

How much money do ya reckonye have to spend on his replacement, will Lerner give the full amount ye get for Benteke to be reinvested?

I'd assume its important to spend the full amount as a quality repalcement who'll score goals wont come cheap.

I'd say the wage-bill will be the deciding factor. There aren't too many strikers commanding a transfer fee of £20m-25m, who would also be willing to trouser only 30-40k per week. Most likely it will fund 2-3 players of similar price-range and stage of development as Benteke.

Another thing to consider is the Carroll effect. If clubs know Villa have just netted a large amount of money from the Benteke sale, they will play hardball for an inflated fee. So Villa need to agree a fee for Benteke, source a replacement(s), then let him go and let the fee be known publicly, imo.

Corholio

GavRedKing wrote: »

Lets say you get 20 million for himand Lerner takes at least 10-12 to cover the transfer and his wages and a bit of profit, do ya reckon you'll get a replacement for the same money ye signed Benteke for?

Theres a decent market there if ye act fast.

Always harder second time round to find a gem for 7-8m, especially a striker. What encourages me though is that Lamberts net is cast wide, as shown by the signings this summer.

matrim

If we used to money to get 2 players, a playmaker /ACM and a CF then it could work out better as we would hopefully be less reliant on a single player performing and it would fill a gap that we are currently missing

mectavba

It's disappointing that he put in a transfer request, but I don't think he owes us anything. He pretty much kept us up last year. If we go, we will make, roughly, a 20 million profit on him.

I think the fee will be between 25-30 million. Villa still hold all the aces, he has 3 years left on his contract. Lambert won't let Benteke put a gun to his head. He put Bent on the bench for most of last season who is on about 3 times the money Benteke is.

I don't see Arsenal or Spurs coming in with a big enough offer. Also, I think it would be a joke moving to Spurs. Why go to this trouble to go to a Europa League team, when you could play another year and definitely get a move to a genuinely big team.

Chelsea are the only ones I see coming in with a big enough fee, although City obviously have the funds too.

I think he has been poorly advised by his agent, who is clearly hungry for his big pay day. This transfer request is definitely more money motivated than football.

Feidhlim

mectavba wrote: »

It's disappointing that he put in a transfer request, but I don't think he owes us anything. He pretty much kept us up last year. If we go, we will make, roughly, a 20 million profit on him.

I think the fee will be between 25-30 million. Villa still hold all the aces, he has 3 years left on his contract. Lambert won't let Benteke put a gun to his head. He put Bent on the bench for most of last season who is on about 3 times the money Benteke is.

I don't see Arsenal or Spurs coming in with a big enough offer. Also, I think it would be a joke moving to Spurs. Why go to this trouble to go to a Europa League team, when you could play another year and definitely get a move to a genuinely big team.

Chelsea are the only ones I see coming in with a big enough fee, although City obviously have the funds too.

I think he has been poorly advised by his agent, who is clearly hungry for his big pay day. This transfer request is definitely more money motivated than football.

Spot on, though I think the fee is now between £22 and £26 million

JPA

I'm sure his agent is motivated by money but Benteke could simply want the London life and to play with a couple of Belgian buddies.
Not that he wouldn't enjoy a fatter wallet of course.

CSF

To all those saying that teams won't pay 20 million plus, well that's kind of ideal for us. If his valuation isn't met and he is still with us in September that is fantastic IMO.

GavRedKing

CSF wrote: »

To all those saying that teams won't pay 20 million plus, well that's kind of ideal for us. If his valuation isn't met and he is still with us in September that is fantastic IMO.

Ye'll get about 20-22 I reckon but the suggestings of closer to 30m
and above would be hoping 2 or 3 clubs want him and the push the price up between them.

Best case scenario is he doesnt pull a stroppy and go on strike and stays and plays and pushes ye up the league.

Worse case scenario, he leaves with days to go in the window leaving ye up a creak without a paddle and then yell be forced to overpay for a replacement.

CSF

GavRedKing wrote: »

Ye'll get about 20-22 I reckon but the suggestings of closer to 30m
and above would be hoping 2 or 3 clubs want him and the push the price up between them.

Best case scenario is he doesnt pull a stroppy and go on strike and stays and plays and pushes ye up the league.

Worse case scenario, he leaves with days to go in the window leaving ye up a creak without a paddle and then yell be forced to overpay for a replacement.

20+ mil would be fine with me. Btw that worst case scenario doesn't happen unless Villa agree to sell him with days to go in the window, which they shouldn't.

Neil3030

Is it too late for Villa to sabotage the Neymar deal?

Doodee

CSF wrote: »

20+ mil would be fine with me. Btw that worst case scenario doesn't happen unless Villa agree to sell him with days to go in the window, which they shouldn't.

With the exclusion of Bent, will our striking options be that bad?
The question I'm asking myself is can Weimann step up as the finisher he is proclaimed to be?

If we strengthen the mid and defence then his goals will not be as big of a requirement (not saying that I wouldn't want them still).
What about the young chap at Brugge?

Paulegend

GavRedKing wrote: »

You wont get 35 million for Benteke though.

Newcastle got 35 million for Carroll becasue, A) it was the last few hours of the transfer window & Liverpool were getting 50million for Torres off Chelsea for the exact same reason Newcastle were getting 35 for Carroll.

Its true Villa dont have to sell Benteke, but its better to cash in now and early in the window to give yereselfs more time to replace him withthe money you've got for him.

Doodee wrote: »

A replacement can be gotten before he leaves. Net spend so far is still very low, probably the same as last years yet we also got more money for staying up.
Pardew has also declared interest in Bent so if he is just removed from the wage bill that's a month of Benteke's per week saved.
It's not something that should be done out of spite, rather out of principal. I think the message it sends to the other young players who remain loyal such as Weimann that they can come and play for the club and know that it will be rewarded.
Don't get me wrong, its not the transfer request that I'm suggesting this over, but rather the unprofessional downing of tools if its true. Those kind of actions need to be shown as not welcome or entertained by the club.

the problem is that villa cant afford to replace benteke before he leaves. if they had the cash to spend they would spend it regardless of benteke leaving or staying.

if villa sell now they might get 20 million. they might get a replacement or two for 15.

if villa waited until the last moment they might get 25-30 million depending on who actually is in for him. if they got athletico, spurs, city and either milan or napoli then they might get the cash. but it will be late in the transfer window and the same replacement or two that cost 15 will now cost 20+.

the other scenario is they take a chance and sign a replacement first. they could spend the 15 million on one or two guys and hope to get the cash back through benteke. the problem is what if a deal falls through for benteke and ye end up with benteke and two new guys all wanting to play up front. sure as supporters we want that for our teams but for the management thats a nightmare between having players picking up huge wages sitting on the bench and strikers trying to get form or stay happy with playing time etc.

we all think it is so easy to just replace players or bring players in but its a massive juggling job. villa just need to weigh up the options and as fans ye got to thrust and hope for the best outcome. best thing about football there is always a new season

CSF

Doodee wrote: »

With the exclusion of Bent, will our striking options be that bad?
The question I'm asking myself is can Weimann step up as the finisher he is proclaimed to be?

If we strengthen the mid and defence then his goals will not be as big of a requirement (not saying that I wouldn't want them still).
What about the young chap at Brugge?

I'm not a big fan of Gabby as a player, so I think a replacement would have to be signed yeah.

Neil3030

Paulegend wrote: »

....as fans ye got to thrust and hope for the best outcome....

:pac:

Doodee

Paulegend wrote: »

the problem is that villa cant afford to replace benteke before he leaves. if they had the cash to spend they would spend it regardless of benteke leaving or staying.

if villa sell now they might get 20 million. they might get a replacement or two for 15.

if villa waited until the last moment they might get 25-30 million depending on who actually is in for him. if they got athletico, spurs, city and either milan or napoli then they might get the cash. but it will be late in the transfer window and the same replacement or two that cost 15 will now cost 20+.

the other scenario is they take a chance and sign a replacement first. they could spend the 15 million on one or two guys and hope to get the cash back through benteke. the problem is what if a deal falls through for benteke and ye end up with benteke and two new guys all wanting to play up front. sure as supporters we want that for our teams but for the management thats a nightmare between having players picking up huge wages sitting on the bench and strikers trying to get form or stay happy with playing time etc.

we all think it is so easy to just replace players or bring players in but its a massive juggling job. villa just need to weigh up the options and as fans ye got to thrust and hope for the best outcome. best thing about football there is always a new season

Of course the funds are there. The club isn't going to splash out 20mill on a replacement but the 8.5 that's been touted for Kiyotake could be used.
And the club can afford to not play Benteke if he wasn't shipped out. He is on 20k p/w. the club has carried Ireland, Given, Bent, Hutton and Warnock for longer on higher wages.

And I would think it is easy for PL to replace Benteke, cause if he wasn't prepared for his departure with all the nonsense since the end of last season then he shouldn't be in charge of the team.

Villa hold all the aces here. The only question is if Randy will sanction those actions or not.

jimmy the car

Paulegend wrote: »

the problem is that villa cant afford to replace benteke before he leaves. if they had the cash to spend they would spend it regardless of benteke leaving or staying.

if villa sell now they might get 20 million. they might get a replacement or two for 15.

if villa waited until the last moment they might get 25-30 million depending on who actually is in for him. if they got athletico, spurs, city and either milan or napoli then they might get the cash. but it will be late in the transfer window and the same replacement or two that cost 15 will now cost 20+.

the other scenario is they take a chance and sign a replacement first. they could spend the 15 million on one or two guys and hope to get the cash back through benteke. the problem is what if a deal falls through for benteke and ye end up with benteke and two new guys all wanting to play up front. sure as supporters we want that for our teams but for the management thats a nightmare between having players picking up huge wages sitting on the bench and strikers trying to get form or stay happy with playing time etc.

we all think it is so easy to just replace players or bring players in but its a massive juggling job. villa just need to weigh up the options and as fans ye got to thrust and hope for the best outcome. best thing about football there is always a new season

Maybe I misread it but did Lambert not say if anyone wants Benteke they have a specific timeframe in order to do it otherwise it's no go, presumably to avoid the whole last day madness....