Aston Villa Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14

Clanket

Hope you're right lads. Like I said, QPR are our greatest hope for survival.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

Hope you're right lads. Like I said, QPR are our greatest hope for survival.

not the fact that we've only lost 5 times away from home, to city, united, arsenal, spurs and newcastle, all season? you're talking about form, how's that for away form then? only city have lost less on the road, and you genuinely reckon we have no chance of getting anything from norwich?

qpr arent our best hope for survival, our best hope for survival is the fact that we're 3 places off the relegation zone, have a solid away record in terms of not losing, and are most likely safe without so much as picking up another point

Clanket

Helix wrote: »

not the fact that we've only lost 5 times away from home, to city, united, arsenal, spurs and newcastle, all season? you're talking about form, how's that for away form then? only city have lost less on the road, and you genuinely reckon we have no chance of getting anything from norwich?

You make it sound like we're a decent side at the moment Helix. Our league position says otherwise.

Helix wrote: »

qpr arent our best hope for survival, our best hope for survival is the fact that we're 3 places off the relegation zone, have a solid away record in terms of not losing, and are most likely safe without so much as picking up another point

Like I said, I hope you're right.

Raekwon

I'd say QPR will beat Stoke at home to put them level on points with us but I can't see them beating City away even if they do have a genuine goal threat in Djibril Cissé (when he stays on the pitch that is).

But stranger things have happened, remember West Ham beat Man Utd 1-0 at Old Trafford on the last day of the season a few years ago to stay up. I can't see the same sort of thing happening this season but you never know in football.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

You make it sound like we're a decent side at the moment Helix. Our league position says otherwise.

yet you're saying that the teams who have LESS points than us will manage to do better, sure their overall form this season has been even worse than ours. and despite us being absolutely awful, we very rarely lose away from home. based on form alone, you'd probably have to say qpr and stoke will draw, spurs will beat us at home, we'll draw with norwich, and city will beat qpr. that's even without factoring bolton in, who will also likely lose to spurs

Clanket

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/form-guide.html

The current Form table. It says a lot to me. Pretty much what most of us already know. We're on a crap run and only for the teams around us having a low points score prior to the last 2 months, we'd be going down.

I can't see our form improving. So if there's a few results in the next 2 weeks that go against us, we're going down. I applaud a number of posters certainty that we're not. However, I'll not be counting any chickens yet!

Neil3030

Lerner had £100m on every league game involving Villa to end 0-0. 6 games from 36 means at average odds of 7/1 he has netted £600m. Sadly, however, this money will be spent giving Heskey a new 12 year deal and expanding our scouting network in Newfoundland.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/form-guide.html

The current Form table. It says a lot to me. Pretty much what most of us already know. We're on a crap run and only for the teams around us having a low points score prior to the last 2 months, we'd be going down.

I can't see our form improving. So if there's a few results in the next 2 weeks that go against us, we're going down. I applaud a number of posters certainty that we're not. However, I'll not be counting any chickens yet!

sure we're above norwich in the form table, by your logic we're bound to win that one

Clanket

Helix I admire your stubborness. But seriously, cop the fúck on.

OneColdHand

Clanket wrote: »

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/form-guide.html

The current Form table. It says a lot to me. Pretty much what most of us already know. We're on a crap run and only for the teams around us having a low points score prior to the last 2 months, we'd be going down.

I can't see our form improving. So if there's a few results in the next 2 weeks that go against us, we're going down. I applaud a number of posters certainty that we're not. However, I'll not be counting any chickens yet!

QPR's form in that table isn't good enough to catch us though?!? (They've won 3 and lost 3 of their last 6). So by that (ie. your) logic we're safe! That's not even considering Bolton.

Obviously it's still mathematically possible, but you've got to admit it's extreemly unlikey.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

Helix I admire your stubborness. But seriously, cop the fúck on.

im not the one who needs to cop on. on the one hand you're saying our recent form isn't good, so that means it'll be a surprise if we stay up - completely discounting the fact that we're 3 points and more than enough goal difference for another point ahead of 2 of the teams below us who need to pass us out

despite using OUR form as a barometer for us potentially going down, you're completely disregarding man city's home form. a team who have dropped only 2 points at home all season. and you're saying that you reckon qpr will get something from them on the last day. this is qpr with the worst away form in the league

so basically, you're using villas form (oh, apart from our away record which has the 2nd least defeats in the league, you're ignoring that completely despite our last game being away) to say that we'll probably go down, and completely ignoring both qpr and man city's form as the basis of saying qpr will get the point they needed there

all the while ALSO completely ignoring the fact that despite saying man city might have nothing to play for on the last day, norwich will DEFINITELY have nothing to play for on the last day

it's the most ridiculous attempt at an argument ive ever come across

Corholio

Petrov named Player's Player of the Year tonight.

Ireland named Fan's Player of the Year.

Must have been one of the least celebratory Villa awards in recent years I imagine.

death1234567

Corholio wrote: »

Ireland named Fan's Player of the Year.

I wonder how many games he started/played in this season? Not that anyone else was a standout candidate...

Raekwon

Ireland has played 22 games so far this season (5 as a sub) and has got 1 goal and 3 assists.

He has been head and shoulders above anyone else in a Villa shirt this season in terms of his overall play and passing. I'd obviously like to see him get a few more goals and assists under his belt but that would obviously come under different management and style of play.

Corholio

Raekwon wrote: »

Ireland has played 22 games so far this season (5 as a sub) and has got 1 goal and 3 assists.

He has been head and shoulders above anyone else in a Villa shirt this season in terms of his overall play and passing. I'd obviously like to see him get a few more goals and assists under his belt but that would obviously come under different management and style of play.

I liked Ireland this season, but I think his performances have been exaggerated too. He's scored 1 goal, had 3 assists and only had 15 shots at goal in the entire season. That's poor for an attacking midfielder. He is the only Villa player who can pick out passes like that definitely. But he still needs to do more, and influence games directly, not just by being the only player who 'looks' like he can do something.

Raekwon

I agree, but it's a team game and Ireland is on a completely different wave length to his teammates, that's not exactly his fault. Plus of course his performances are being effected by the extremely negative tactics of the manager, again there isn't much he can do about that.

I think if we had a manager like Martinez, who likes his players to pass the ball and to attack the opposition, then we'd really see the best out of Ireland.

death1234567

Raekwon wrote: »

He has been head and shoulders above anyone else in a Villa shirt this season in terms of his overall play and passing.

but he only started 17 games...are we that bad?

Actually don't answer that...:p

Helix

Corholio wrote: »

That's poor for an attacking midfielder

he's been adding so much more to his game though. he tracks back more than any other midfielder we have and makes more important blocks than most in thee team

Corholio

Helix wrote: »

he's been adding so much more to his game though. he tracks back more than any other midfielder we have and makes more important blocks than most in thee team

He has improved that side of his game, but not sure if you were including Petrov in our midfielders or not there. Wouldnt say he makes more than most either, that's a little much, he gets the good odd block in but he can do more IMO. Also the reason he has had to track back is because of the way we play. I wasn't complaining about Ireland at all, but he hasn't had anything like a great season, he's just been our most creative thinking, without actually having done all that much.

Hopefully we can get a new manager in to allow Ireland to play his best football.

Helix

james nursey reporting that mcleish has cancelled all planned talks with prospective summer signings, and there are other reports that we've cancelled the holman deal

if thats true then mcleish is definitely getting his papers at the end of the season

Paully D

Helix wrote: »

james nursey reporting that mcleish has cancelled all planned talks with prospective summer signings, and there are other reports that we've cancelled the holman deal

if thats true then mcleish is definitely getting his papers at the end of the season

Then there's only one man for the job:



:pac:

I could only imagine the reaction on here if McLeish was replaced by Stevie :pac:

Any idea of managerial targets or who you would realistically like yourself lads?

JPA

Paully D wrote: »

Any idea of managerial targets or who you would realistically like yourself lads?

Wouldn't mind Lambert or Martinez although both are kind of gambles. They would be very attainable targets I think.

1mcampo1

JPA wrote: »

Wouldn't mind Lambert or Martinez although both are kind of gambles. They would be very attainable targets I think.

Not 100% sure, but isn't Martinez mean't to be leaving Wigan at the end of the season, regardless of what happens to
Wigan...

G.K.

I thought it was Martinez wouldn't leave whatever happens.

BUNK1982

Mick McCarthy or Alan Curnishley??

Patser

Part of me wouldn't say no to McCarthy - but taking another manager from a rival team that just got relegated, too close to the bone following on from McLeish.

I just see Lambert's (of Norwich) name being mentioned.

I also have a feeling ot could be an interesting summer at VP. There were rumours around Christmas of a big buy out or maybe Lerner will realise it's time to open the cheque book again (especially if we get rid of the last true deadwood)

Helix

ive said it plenty of times on here, but i think mccarthy is a far better manager than many give him credit for. but that's based off the stuff he had the irish national team playing. as patser says, it's all a bit familiar if we were to go for him

i think we might go for moyes again. apparently he was the main target last year and it just wouldnt happen, so i assume he'll be the first port of call again

Patser

I think any manager currrently in a job will take a long, hard look at what Lerner is offering him before jumping to Villa. The team needs rebuilding but if Lerner tries to do it on a shoestring, why would you jump ship.

As for Moyes, would love him at Villa, but when he's being mentioned as possible successor to Fergie why would he want to come here now.

BBC Today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17925203

Edit:
Just as a bit of good news, Bolton lost tonight so still 3 behind us with same games played. Bad thing is Spurs (who beat them) come to Villa Park Sunday chasing Champions League.

matrim

Whatever happens we need to get the new manager in as soon as possible. Hopefully before the Euros start.

That way he will have time to access the squad from previous years. We don't want another year where we get a manager too late to make proper changes and are stuck with a similar squad as now.

Helix

have we all seen this? http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/01052012/58/liga-barcelona-world-best-paid-players.html

last season we were the 41st best paying sports team in the entire world, across every team sport, with an average wage of £47,401 per professional. absolutely sickening stuff (we were still paying more than spurs on average then too)

Doodee

most of those other teams play champions league!

Raekwon

So Villa are the 13th highest paying football club in the world (6th in the EPL) with the 20th highest paid manger in the world yet we have been flirting with relegation for two seasons running and can never seem to attract truly world class players

Randy Lerner really hasn't got a clue what he's doing, does he?

Helix

the wages are from last season

but yeah the point is relevant, though i wouldn't blame lerner as much as you would

Raekwon

Well then who's to blame then? MON? Yeah he requested the signatures of all of those players but he did so with Lerner's authorization and blessing plus Richard Fitzgerald/Paul Faulkner negotiated their astronomical wages & transfer fees so the blame can't be laid squarely at MON's feet.

Plus couldn't somebody within the club should have twigged alot earlier then the summer of 2010 that the wages and transfer fees that we were paying were totally unattainable? We had a net spent of £67m during the 08/09 & 09/10 seasons alone and the players that were added in that period were mostly high earners on an average of £47k per week/£2.4m per year. For a team not competing in the Champions League that was ridiculous amounts of money to be shelling out, unless we had wealthy Middle Eastern owners, which we obviously don't.

IMO the buck stops with Lerner. He came in and splashed the cash and promised the world (well CL qualification within 5 years). Things turned sour and he pulled the plug on his finances and sold off our best players. In doing this his team went from Champions League contenders to relegation battlers in record time. His managerial appoints have been shockingly poor and his decision making overall has been questionable.

So if Lerner is not to blame then who is?

Helix

MON is. lerner trusted him to be a knowledgeable football man, and took his word on things like wages and values, because that's the reason he was hired (by ellis). it was a stupid thing to do, yes, but the only real issue is that lerner trusted his manager to manage

also, faulkner wouldnt have had anything to do with 99% of mon signings, and mon negotiated contracts and fees up until the last 6 months of his tenure

Clanket

Trusted his manager to manage the football side of things. But he should have been trusting his Financial controller to manage the finances.

The ultimate responsibility rests with Lerner.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

Trusted his manager to manage the football side of things. But he should have been trusting his Financial controller to manage the finances.

The ultimate responsibility rests with Lerner.

doug gave mon that control when he gave him the contract. lerner tried to change things in that respect and o'neill walked out

Corholio

I don't think there's any scenario with figures with like that that Lerner can be absolved from blame. O'Neill had too much free reign with very little to show for it except a trail of high wages and free transfers, with the odd sell on profit. Lerner's next move will be the most important he's ever had, McLeish going looks a certainty at this stage, unless Lerner wants to start next season with maybe even less support than even Ellis had. Who would have thought that.

OneColdHand

Corholio wrote: »

I don't think there's any scenario with figures with like that that Lerner can be absolved from blame. O'Neill had too much free reign with very little to show for it except a trail of high wages and free transfers, with the odd sell on profit. Lerner's next move will be the most important he's ever had, McLeish going looks a certainty at this stage, unless Lerner wants to start next season with maybe even less support than even Ellis had. Who would have thought that.

Completely disagree. When villa were doing well with MON (ie around 2nd season in charge, finishing 6th) everyone was saying 'It's great Randy is giving MON such control of the team'. Now that it's gone pear shaped the blame is suddenly with Lerner? Lerner isn't a football man, he knew that, so he trusted someone who was, MON to have control.

IMO, Lerner did the right thing. It's just unfortunate that MON didn't work out.

invinciblePRSTV

Christ that's a depressing stat.

death1234567

Clanket wrote: »

The ultimate responsibility rests with Lerner.

+1. Its his business (club) and regardless of anything else it should be up to him put people/policies/whatever in place to ensure the club was run in the way he wanted.

Clanket

To give anyone full control over everything, including finances, is utter madness. He has to be held responsible for this, along with the financial controller of the time. I know he inherited MON from Ellis but he could easily have changed things as he seen fit.

There must have been warning signs at least 2 years before O'Neill quit that the finances of the club were getting out of control. And to not address them at the time was foolish on his part.

A manager is always going to pay anything to get players they want. I don't think O'Neill can be blamed at all here. What he can be blamed for though, is buying awful shíte.

Helix

Lerner didn't give him that control, doug Ellis did when he agreed terms with him and signed him as manager

People keep forgetting that

They also forget that had mon not been backed the way he was he'd have walked long before he did and people wouldve been moaning about Lerner not backing the manager

Lerner backed mon to the hilt, and received plaudits across the board for letting his manager get on with the job. The manager was trusted to know the game, to know the players and to know how best to make use if the funds available to him

However he didn't know these things in the end and signed a distressing amount of players who left the club on free transfers, three who left for a profit, and 2 who left for cash equal to or less than the fee paid

The first thing Lerner did wrong at villa IMO, was hire mcleish

Clanket

If as you say MON was given total control by Ellis, Lerner could have changed a few things as soon as he took the club over. Namely, make sure the finances of the club are controlled not by the manager, but by the financial controller.

How does everyone know that MON was in total control? I'd be very suprised if there was nobody else who had to eventually sign off on wage deals/transfers.

Helix

Clanket wrote: »

If as you say MON was given total control by Ellis, Lerner could have changed a few things as soon as he took the club over. Namely, make sure the finances of the club are controlled not by the manager, but by the financial controller.

that would likely have led to mon walking out about 2 weeks after getting the job ffs

Clanket

He had feck all at Leicester and Celtic. Why would he have left?

We still don't know everything about why he walked. Hopefully more will come out in the future.

Helix

he had feck all control at leicester and celtic?

what?!

Dr. Greenthumb

I find it hard to believe someone as tight as Doug Ellis would have given anyone, even MON, full control over spending his / the clubs money. Considering Ellis's history it doesn't stack up.

If someone had some actual proof to contradict this then ok but that's not the case.

If you owned a business and hired someone, gave them free reign and their actions ended up putting that business under, who ultimately is at fault? The owner of course and to say he inherited MON and couldn't do anything etc. is just making excuses for Lerner and his support staff.

I'm not absolving MON from blame on our financial situation but he's not responsible for all our problems and I still look back on his reign as an enjoyable one to be a Villa supporter for.

Lerners first mistake based on hindsight was being too weak / clueless to manage the spending at the club. IMO his second was appointing Houllier (lucky for us that didn't last) and obviously McLeish is a massive one.

Helix

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

I find it hard to believe someone as tight as Doug Ellis would have given anyone, even MON, full control over spending his / the clubs money

doug knew he was leaving, the last thing he did was sign mon

Corholio

OneColdHand wrote: »

Completely disagree. When villa were doing well with MON (ie around 2nd season in charge, finishing 6th) everyone was saying 'It's great Randy is giving MON such control of the team'. Now that it's gone pear shaped the blame is suddenly with Lerner? Lerner isn't a football man, he knew that, so he trusted someone who was, MON to have control.

IMO, Lerner did the right thing. It's just unfortunate that MON didn't work out.

Who do you think would have known the finances more, O'Neill or Lerner? Don't get me wrong, i'm glad O'Neill walked considering the state he left us in, could have been even worse, the buck still stops with Lerner. He owns the club, O'Neill just played with it for a while and didn't like how Lerner suddenly didnt want him playing with it as much.

I'm very much on the Lerner side of things when it comes to the O'Neill thing, but on overall responsibility of our current predictament, he has to take a lot of blame for it.