Celtic FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2011/2012

Brewster

Again, if the level of debate is centered on what version of the IRA we are referring to, progress on this issue cannot be made.

KeithAFC

Brewster wrote: »

Again, if the level of debate is centered on what version of the IRA we are referring to, progress on this issue cannot be made.

Does it matter? Peter lawwell told celtic fans to stop it and they obviously didn't listen.

celticbest

KeithAFC wrote: »

Does it matter? Peter lawwell told celtic fans to stop it and they obviously didn't listen.

Peter Lawell agreed to put the Poppy of Murder on the Celtic jersey, neeed I say more. :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

celticbest wrote: »

Peter Lawell agreed to put the Poppy of Murder on the Celtic jersey, neeed I say more. :rolleyes:

I don't know about that but the man himself said most of the complaints he got about the IRA chanting was from celtic fans. So it seems some aren't listening to him.

PauloMN

Dempsey wrote: »

There lies the problem for me and I said it already said as much. The ignorant cannot make the distinction and the intolerant choose not to and Scotland are choosing to pander to these people rather than educate and breed tolerance of different cultures. What they are doing is a form of segregation rather than integration.

I disagree. It's like anything in life, you cannot accommodate 100% every single viewpoint all of the time, there has to be a compromise. Every rule, every guideline is a compromise, based on the idea of a common good.

What about "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA"? You ok with that? If not, why not? The unfortunate thing for republicans is that both the old IRA and the PIRA were (rightly or wrongly) referred to as the "IRA", hence people will take their own meaning from it when they hear "IRA".

I'm with BBE on this one in so far as I think the real issue here is the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chant, that I am certain of is the issue being reported here. There is no doubt in my mind that this chant refers to the PIRA, and this absolutely must be cut out. Otherwise the idiots who persist with it will cost our club money, bans for fans and maybe worse - points and places in competitions.

Dempsey

Brewster wrote: »

Again, if the level of debate is centered on what version of the IRA we are referring to, progress on this issue cannot be made.

I disagree, if you know the history of what is being referenced then you clearly will know. The idea that

KeithAFC wrote: »

Does it matter? Peter lawwell told celtic fans to stop it and they obviously didn't listen.

Lawwell referred to chants glorifying the PIRA, nothing else.

PauloMN wrote: »

I disagree. It's like anything in life, you cannot accommodate 100% every single viewpoint all of the time, there has to be a compromise. Every rule, every guideline is a compromise, based on the idea of a common good.

What about "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA"? You ok with that? If not, why not? The unfortunate thing for republicans is that both the old IRA and the PIRA were (rightly or wrongly) referred to as the "IRA", hence people will take their own meaning from it when they hear "IRA".

I'm with BBE on this one in so far as I think the real issue here is the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chant, that I am certain of is the issue being reported here. There is no doubt in my mind that this chant refers to the PIRA, and this absolutely must be cut out. Otherwise the idiots who persist with it will cost our club money, bans for fans and maybe worse - points and places in competitions.

What happened to freedom of speech?

I think people nowadays make the distinction by full titles as they do not see all these different versions as any form of a continuation from those who fought for Irish freedom, PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, OIRA etc.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Thanks Paul
Dempsey can I ask you a question do you go over to Glasgow a lot and when your there do you spend time out with the company of Celtic fans
And I know there are two questions in there

PauloMN

Dempsey wrote: »

I disagree, if you know the history of what is being referenced then you clearly will know. The idea that



Lawwell referred to chants glorifying the PIRA, nothing else.



What happened to freedom of speech?

I think people nowadays make the distinction by full titles as they do not see all these different versions as any form of a continuation from those who fought for Irish freedom, PIRA, RIRA, CIRA, OIRA etc.

So do you think the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chant is ok? Which flavour of IRA do you think it refers to? Are you happy for it to continue even if the club faces sanctions?

Freedom of speech isn't a catch-all to allow you to say what you want when you want.

Dempsey

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Thanks Paul
Dempsey can I ask you a question do you go over to Glasgow a lot and when your there do you spend time out with the company of Celtic fans
And I know there are two questions in there

I havent been over in recent times unfortunately but when I am over there I do be out amongst Celtic fans.

Whats your point?

KeithAFC

Lawwell referred to chants glorifying the PIRA, nothing else.

Yes and obviously it hasn't worked because celtic are now under investigation.

premierstone

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Do you really think I care what you think of me or Rangers
I am talking about your racist tendencies in general

An Irishman who supports Rangers, lecturing a fellow countryman about he's racist tendancies, christ on a bike you couldnt make this sh*t up

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Thanks Paul
Dempsey can I ask you a question do you go over to Glasgow a lot and when your there do you spend time out with the company of Celtic fans
And I know there are two questions in there

I havent been over in recent times unfortunately but when I am over there I do be out amongst Celtic fans.

Whats your point?

My point is you go on about people being ignorant but if you maybe spent time not among tic fans you would find they are far from ignorant
I am going over tonight and my time over there will be spent with tic fans thistle fans Motherwell fans one hibs fan oh and Rangers fans this song business will be discussed and in that lot not one thinks songs relating to the RA are acceptable anymore as to there ignorance once more there professions and there standing in there communities tells me they are articulate and intelligent the Celtic fans in thesis will all admit to singing these songs in the past but agree its time to stop as they have said sing about Ireland and sing about Celtic leave the other stuff at the gates

Dempsey

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes and obviously it hasn't worked because celtic are now under investigation.

True, I was just clarifying what he actually said is all.

What are you doing with the red hand of ulster in your signature? Niall of the Nine Hostages fan :rolleyes:

Broxi_Bear_Eire

premierstone wrote: »

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Do you really think I care what you think of me or Rangers
I am talking about your racist tendencies in general

An Irishman who supports Rangers, lecturing a fellow countryman about he's racist tendancies, christ on a bike you couldnt make this sh*t up

The difference I am not racist and I know he is you know supporting Rangers does not automatically make me a bigot only people with closedinds would think it does

KeithAFC

Dempsey wrote: »

True, I was just clarifying what he actually said is all.

What are you doing with the red hand of ulster in your signature? Niall of the Nine Hostages fan :rolleyes:

Lets hope it gets sorted soon then and Celtic can focus on the football. I like it, that is why.

Dempsey

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

My point is you go on about people being ignorant but if you maybe spent time not among tic fans you would find they are far from ignorant
I am going over tonight and my time over there will be spent with tic fans thistle fans Motherwell fans one hibs fan oh and Rangers fans this song business will be discussed and in that lot not one thinks songs relating to the RA are acceptable anymore as to there ignorance once more there professions and there standing in there communities tells me they are articulate and intelligent the Celtic fans in thesis will all admit to singing these songs in the past but agree its time to stop as they have said sing about Ireland and sing about Celtic leave the other stuff at the gates

What do you think of the upstanding people who are articulate and have highly reputable professions that dont agree with your point of view? Have you discussed your views with them or did you just seek out like minded people that follow different clubs.

PauloMN

Dempsey, are you going to answer my questions?

- Do you think the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chant is acceptable?
- If so, would you have a problem with fans singing it even if it means sanctions imposed on the club?
- Which IRA do you reckon it refers to?

RoryMac

Jesus I really thought all this was behind us, what kind of FAN continues to chant stuff knowing full well it will be the club and it's fans that will suffer?

Oh Ah up the Ra has NO place in a football ground simple as!

Madam

RoryMac wrote: »

Jesus I really thought all this was behind us, what kind of FAN continues to chant stuff knowing full well it will be the club and it's fans that will suffer?

Oh Ah up the Ra has NO place in a football ground simple as!

I would'nt mind 'Oh ah up the ?? - it's a good chant - why not just change the words?

premierstone

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

The difference I am not racist and I know he is you know supporting Rangers does not automatically make me a bigot only people with closedinds would think it does

So you are outing him as being racist on a public forum, are you familar with Libel laws by any chance??

And I have no idea what closedinds are, would they be the same thing that automatically makes you think of the PIRA when you hear IRA??:p

And I did not claim you were a bigot, I have had many dicussions with you on football here and in the Rangers thread, I was merely pointing out the irony in an Irishman who supports a club who openly discriminated against he's fellow countrymen for the great majority of their existance could then turn around and label celticbest as racist because he hates Rangers??

Dempsey

PauloMN wrote: »

Dempsey, are you going to answer my questions?

- Do you think the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chant is acceptable?
- If so, would you have a problem with fans singing it even if it means sanctions imposed on the club?
- Which IRA do you reckon it refers to?

No it shouldnt but I was never talking about the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chants.

My argument with you stemmed from these comments

Because of the association the IRA has with terrorism. It's pretty simple really. Stop singing IRA songs and getting our club into trouble. The IRA has nothing to do with our club or its foundation, and never will.

IRA had a significant role in Irish History and formation of the state. The idea of people getting pinged for celebrating that and their heritage with songs that reference the IRA would be a very wrong step.

You want to now boil it down to the ra chants and pira, I dont because the bigger picture of all this is where we have been debating all day.

KeithAFC

Dempsey wrote: »

No it shouldnt but I was never talking about the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chants.

My argument with you stemmed from these comments



IRA had a significant role in Irish History and formation of the state. The idea of people getting pinged for celebrating that with songs that reference the IRA would be a very wrong step.

You want to now boil it down to the ra chants, I dont because the bigger picture of all this is where we have been debating all day.

Dempsey it is the hypocrisy though which is now catching up with Celtic. Songs like the billy boys etc have been banned now. If songs involving the UVF got sung, Celtic fans would be in uproar about it.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

premierstone wrote: »

So you are outing him as being racist on a public forum, are you familar with Libel laws by any chance??

And I have no idea what closedinds are, would they be the same thing that automatically makes you think of the PIRA when you hear IRA??:p

And I did not claim you were a bigot, I have had many dicussions with you on football here and in the Rangers thread, I was merely pointing out the irony in an Irishman who supports a club who openly discriminated against he's fellow countrymen for the great majority of their existance could then turn around and label celticbest as racist because he hates Rangers??

No because of posts he made on a public forum the politics one on here which IMO showed him to be racist
What he thinks of Rangers or myself for that matter is of no importance to me I can assure I would hardly call him a racist for his dislike of either

Madam

Have the 'Billy Boys' been banned ? I'm sure I've heard it sung recently at Ibrox - with the 'up to our knees' part omitted

premierstone

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No because of posts he made on a public forum the politics one on here which IMO showed him to be racist
What he thinks of Rangers or myself for that matter is of no importance to me I can assure I would hardly call him a racist for his dislike of either

Fair enough I havent seen those because I dont post there, I'll let the man defend himself on that, I assumed it was in reference to him sayin he hated Rangers, my mistake.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Madam wrote: »

I would'nt mind 'Oh ah up the ?? - it's a good chant - why not just change the words?

Because fans don't think like that unfortunately Rangers fans could have changed two words in TBB and it would have been fine for a while then the idiots would refer to type the same thing would happen with Celtic fans

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Madam wrote: »

Have the 'Billy Boys' been banned ? I'm sure I've heard it sung recently at Ibrox - with the 'up to our knees' part omitted

No what you heard was EDU EDU edu edu edu do it in your head to TBB

PauloMN

Dempsey wrote: »

No it shouldnt but I was never talking about the "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" chants.

My argument with you stemmed from these comments



IRA had a significant role in Irish History and formation of the state. The idea of people getting pinged for celebrating that and their heritage with songs that reference the IRA would be a very wrong step.

You want to now boil it down to the ra chants and pira, I dont because the bigger picture of all this is where we have been debating all day.

So you don't want the "Ooh Ahh Up the 'RA" chants. Why not? What if it means the old IRA? What about your freedom of speech comment?

The point I am making is that you can rightly see that the "Ohh Ahh" chant is wrong and should not be sung. Obviously you can see why that is. And obviously you can see that there has to be compromise and understanding on all fronts if this is to be resolved.

I'm not changing my opinion on IRA songs in general, I don't think there's any place for them at the stadiums. My later post was agreeing with BBE in so far as I agree with him that specifically "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" is what is being reported here in both matches (Rennes and Hibs). I actually don't think anything could be done about "rebel" songs tbh, regardless of my view of them, and as far as that goes, if they are deemed acceptable I have no issue with them being sung.

Dempsey

KeithAFC wrote: »

Dempsey it is the hypocrisy though which is now catching up with Celtic. Songs like the billy boys etc have been banned now. If songs involving the UVF got sung, Celtic fans would be in uproar about it.

What I'm referring to isnt sectarian, doesn't glorify terrorism nor murder, its people fighting for their country, their freedom. So the British should be allowed to celebrate those who fought and died from their country but nobody else should because its offensive, sectarian and glorifying murders :rolleyes:

Dempsey

PauloMN wrote: »

So you don't want the "Ooh Ahh Up the 'RA" chants. Why not? What if it means the old IRA? What about your freedom of speech comment?

The point I am making is that you can rightly see that the "Ohh Ahh" chant is wrong and should not be sung. Obviously you can see why that is. And obviously you can see that there has to be compromise and understanding on all fronts if this is to be resolved.

I'm not changing my opinion on IRA songs in general, I don't think there's any place for them at the stadiums. My later post was agreeing with BBE in so far as I agree with him that specifically "Ohh Ahh Up the 'RA" is what is being reported here in both matches (Rennes and Hibs). I actually don't think anything could be done about "rebel" songs tbh, regardless of my view of them, and as far as that goes, if they are deemed acceptable I have no issue with them being sung.

I never said that my opinion should be forced on everyone. Did I? I feel that chant is ambiguous and I have no desire to sing it. Should that set a precedent for an entire country?

If the poppy is allowed into CP then why shouldnt the chants of those who fought for Irish freedom? There seems to be no give and take on the issue, certainly zero effort to understand Irish History & Culture. The British want it all one way.

You seem to want to conform to whatever the British decide. Who gets to decide whats 'acceptable'? Whats 'acceptable' can change, for better and for worse, in terms of integration.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

What do you think of the upstanding people who are articulate and have highly reputable professions that dont agree with your point of view? Have you discussed your views with them or did you just seek out like minded people that follow different clubs.

Well I have discussed it with a range of people including high ranking republicans thats the thing I am willing to talk to anyone

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

I never said that my opinion should be forced on everyone. Did I? I feel that chant is ambiguous and I have no desire to sing it. Should that set a precedent for an entire country?

If the poppy is allowed into CP then why shouldnt the chants of those who fought for Irish freedom? There seems to be no give and take on the issue, certainly zero effort to understand Irish History & Culture. The British want it all one way.

You seem to want to conform to whatever the British decide. Who gets to decide whats 'acceptable'? Whats 'acceptable' can change, for better and for worse, in terms of integration.

Of course Britain can decide whats acceptable within its own boundries as it should here as well
As long as no one is hurt or put down I don't really see the problem with following the laws of foreign lands

tommyhaas

KeithAFC wrote: »

Dempsey it is the hypocrisy though which is now catching up with Celtic. Songs like the billy boys etc have been banned now. If songs involving the UVF got sung, Celtic fans would be in uproar about it.

TBB is a sectarian song. Other songs being discussed aren't

Broxi_Bear_Eire

tommyhaas wrote: »

TBB is a sectarian song. Other songs being discussed aren't

I thought OB and Fenian weren't sectarian

PauloMN

Dempsey wrote: »

I never said that my opinion should be forced on everyone. Did I? I feel that chant is ambiguous and I have no desire to sing it. Should that set a precedent for an entire country?

If the poppy is allowed into CP then why shouldnt the chants of those who fought for Irish freedom? There seems to be no give and take on the issue, certainly zero effort to understand Irish History & Culture. The British want it all one way.

You seem to want to conform to whatever the British decide. Who gets to decide whats 'acceptable'? Whats 'acceptable' can change, for better and for worse, in terms of integration.

I want to conform with whatever isn't going to cost our club ultimately, and what will get our club out of the spotlight. I want to conform with basic rules and regulations set by our club for the benefit of all fans. This is not a "them" and "us" issue, this is not about the "British". It's about common decency and the realisation that "Up the 'RA" is something that the vast majority of our fans and others take issue with and needs to be stamped out.

As for educating people on Irish history, maybe Irish history is something that in general people in Britain do not properly understand. However, they (the general British public) are not going to take lessons from idiots shouting "Up the 'RA" - so again it's down to compromises. Unfortunately I don't feel there's much compromise from the fans who persist in getting us into trouble with UEFA and the SPL.

tommyhaas

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I thought OB and Fenian weren't sectarian

Isolated no, but when its in the context of TBB, I think it certainly is

Dempsey

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Well I have discussed it with a range of people including high ranking republicans thats the thing I am willing to talk to anyone

So you think that I havent talked to enough upstanding people that dont share my point of view on the issue?

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Of course Britain can decide whats acceptable within its own boundries as it should here as well
As long as no one is hurt or put down I don't really see the problem with following the laws of foreign lands

My point is more about changing what acceptable to appease the intolerant, the ignorant and the people that going for the +1 on both sides and those trying to keep the peace.

Alot of whats going on is people choosing to get offended because they know it will eventually get the law to ping the other side. In recent times, it has gotten fierce petty and people are going out of their way to be offended by things.

Do you see that getting better or worse? I can only see this getting worse and ingraining further intolerance and stupid pettiness. People are actually beginning to get very 'inventive' about the stuff that they want banned/criminalized because they dont like it.

I've said this all before several several times and now I'm going to leave it there so I can go laugh at Rangers/Hearts and their tax bill issues :P

Broxi_Bear_Eire

tommyhaas wrote: »

Isolated no, but when its in the context of TBB, I think it certainly is

We would disagree but the law says it is so it is

tommyhaas

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

We would disagree but the law says it is so it is

Its similar in how its used to the term 'Paki', in that isolated it can be claimed to simply be an abbreviation of Pakistani, but when proceeded by ''Those fooking.....'' it's certainly racial

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

So you think that I havent talked to enough upstanding people that dont share my point of view on the issue?



My point is more about changing what acceptable to appease the intolerant, the ignorant and the people that going for the +1 on both sides and those trying to keep the peace.

Alot of whats going on is people choosing to get offended because they know it will eventually get the law to ping the other side. In recent times, it has gotten fierce petty and people are going out of their way to be offended by things.

Do you see that getting better or worse? I can only see this getting worse and ingraining further intolerance and stupid pettiness. People are actually beginning to get very 'inventive' about the stuff that they want banned/criminalized because they dont like it.

I've said this all before several several times and now I'm going to leave it there so I can go laugh at Rangers/Hearts and their tax bill issues :P

Of course it is going to get worse the minute a group of Celtic fans started running to various people about the big bad Rangers it was going to happen or do you think Rangers supporters should have just sat back and said fine because that was never going to happen

I don;t know have you talked to people on all sides if you have and came to your conclusion fine but we will never agree on it

KeithAFC

tommyhaas wrote: »

TBB is a sectarian song. Other songs being discussed aren't

Some people might not agree with you. Some people could find those songs offensive and sectarian.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

tommyhaas wrote: »

Its similar in how its used to the term 'Paki', in that isolated it can be claimed to simply be an abbreviation of Pakistani, but when proceeded by ''Those fooking.....'' it's certainly racial

I am well aware of the whole context thing but in my mind Fenian's were a republican group that consisted of both RC's and Protestants so I fail to see how it can be sectarian but Scots law found it to be so along with the word Hun so thats that

tommyhaas

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people might not agree with you. Some people could find those songs offensive and sectarian.

I fully understand how some could find them offensive, I've never disputed that. Care to give an example of how they're sectarian though?

premierstone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people might not agree with you. Some people could find those songs offensive and sectarian.

Then some people need to buy a dictionary and actually look up the meaning of the word 'sectarian' :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

premierstone wrote: »

Then some people need to buy a dictionary and actually look up the meaning of the word 'sectarian' :rolleyes:

It isn't Rangers fans complaining about it. It is Celtic fans complaining to the club about IRA chants. It is Celtic fans who are getting offended by it.

premierstone

KeithAFC wrote: »

It isn't Rangers fans complaining about it. It is Celtic fans complaining to the club about IRA chants. It is Celtic fans who are getting offended by it.

Wrong, we are talking here about songs, songs such as BOTOB not the chants which were reported.

tommyhaas

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am well aware of the whole context thing but in my mind Fenian's were a republican group that consisted of both RC's and Protestants so I fail to see how it can be sectarian but Scots law found it to be so along with the word Hun so thats that

Yea I'm not disputing that that's where it comes from, but it is nowadays commonly used to describe Catholics

Broxi_Bear_Eire

premierstone wrote: »

Wrong, we are talking here about songs, songs such as BOTOB not the chants which were reported.

I am not talking about BOTOB I don't have a problem with that the problems arise with songs like roll of honour which in no way can be taken for the Old IRA

Brewster

tommyhaas wrote: »

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am well aware of the whole context thing but in my mind Fenian's were a republican group that consisted of both RC's and Protestants so I fail to see how it can be sectarian but Scots law found it to be so along with the word Hun so thats that

Yea I'm not disputing that that's where it comes from, but it is nowadays commonly used to describe Catholics

You are spot on Tommy. It's exactly the same for the IRA though. Nowadays, people associate these three letters with terrorism. There is absolutely no place in football for the glorification of terrorism and it has to stop. Rangers fans have cleaned up their act immeasurably and the challenge is there for Celtic fans to now follow.

Madam

Brewster wrote: »

You are spot on Tommy. It's exactly the same for the IRA though. Nowadays, people associate these three letters with terrorism. There is absolutely no place in football for the glorification of terrorism and it has to stop. Rangers fans have cleaned up their act immeasurably and the challenge is there for Celtic fans to now follow.

*splutter* Do we live on the same planet Mr Brewster The word 'immeasurably' is a bit strong

Yes Rangers have cleaned up their act a little but to my mind no more than Celtic have(It's just Celtics turn in the media at the moment - next week we'll be back with Rangers)!