ah now, how many more letters are they gonna add to this acronym?

Aoifums

Kinda sorry I started this now

wonderfulname

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think BDSM or anything else is wrong. Its an expression of sexuality. But what does it have to do with LGBT? Its not a sexual orienation or a gender identity.

As I've already said, one does not sit within the other, rather they are both a part of the same thing, normalisation of both derives from the sexual revolution, both are an aspect of a larger social shift.

wonderfulname

Aoifums wrote: »

Kinda sorry I started this now

You didn't, it was here already.

Platinum2010

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what does it have to do with LGBT?

Nothing , its just a relatively modern form of sexual expression.I never knew people associated it with LGBT

Platinum2010

wonderfulname wrote: »

normalisation of both derives from the sexual revolution, both are an aspect of a larger social shift.

Agreed

Asry

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Nothing , its just a relatively modern form of sexual expression.I never knew people associated it with LGBT

They do now, apparently.

Asry

Sharrow wrote: »

Someone disagreeing with you reminds you of your mother?
I some how doubt myself and your mother have the same opinions on sex and sexuality and not I am not of an age with your mother, I am only 10 years older then you and it's my birthday today. Hurrah for me on my 36th birthday being asked if I am irrationally hormonal due to being menopause, way to go with the having a swipe a woman you knew was old then you to say I am of less worth then you.

Awesome birthday present to be told in this forum of all places that I am of less value cos I am not in my 20s and one of those 'bad' bdsm people who happily consider themsevles as Queer.

I swear the rise of hetronormativity specifically on this site has reached sickening levels.

That post should really get over itself with it's whole "oh noes it's my birthday and you're being mean!". I suggest it's revised as it comes off as sounding like it was written by a child, which we all know you're not.

And no, just a suddenly retrograde reaction out of a thread of friendly banter reminded me of my mother's sudden freak moodswings that she has because of her going through the change.

Asry

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Unfortunately I may be misunderstood because I'm not that articulate but I'll try my best.

There are people out there who are very taboo about sexual stuff , and some people would rather not know , some people believe no one is born gay ,that it's just a sort of sexual experimentation without any emotional attachment .
The homophobes that believe we are just "disturbed" people who like to experiment often associate anything remotely strange sounding like a fetish to us .
My point is that It makes homophobes feel better to associate something they may feel threatened about with homosexuality

Ah, I getcha. I'm not the best with explaining my ideas or opinions myself. As is evident

Links234

crayolastereo wrote: »

I don't think BDSM or anything else is wrong. Its an expression of sexuality. But what does it have to do with LGBT? Its not a sexual orienation or a gender identity.

I think that how some people identify as sub or dom can be as much of an orientation or an identity as anything else.

PJelly

I don't see why BDSM would be included in LGBT, it's a kink, not an orientation.
Using that logic, you could say people who have a thing for hairy people should be included as a separate letter. Or people who have a kink for check shirts. Etc and so on.

wonderfulname

And next thing you know they'll be marrying dogs at the altar!!


What? Wrong thread?

Annasopra

Asry/Sparrow stop getting narky at each other. Take it to pm if you have any issues with each other.

Meesared

Asry wrote: »

That post should really get over itself with it's whole "oh noes it's my birthday and you're being mean!". I suggest it's revised as it comes off as sounding like it was written by a child, which we all know you're not.

And no, just a suddenly retrograde reaction out of a thread of friendly banter reminded me of my mother's sudden freak moodswings that she has because of her going through the change.

In fairness i have to agree with Asry here, what relevance is it that its your birthday?

Goodshape

Seriously now, BDSM and the like have nothing to do with LGBT. I think that's totally unfair.

Being gay is not a fetish. It's not just "what I'm into". And I'd say that goes double for Trans people.

Meesared

Goodshape wrote: »

Seriously now, BDSM and the like have nothing to do with LGBT. I think that's totally unfair.

Being gay is not a fetish. It's not just "what I'm into". And I'd say that goes double for Trans people.

Does for me anyway

*is trans*

Morag

It does, it's part and parcel of a persons sexuality.

It boils down to privilege and the hierarchy of what is acceptable.
Top of that is the hetro vanilla model and then how much a person deviates away from that pushes them further down the hierarchy.

Yes what a lot of 20 something don't seem to understand that homosexuality was considered for the majority of western civilisation to be a deviancy.
Yes social mores have changed but for those who have gained some measure of mainstream acceptance to turn around and look down their noses at others who were also considered sexual deviants by Victorian standards is hypercritical to say the least.

People have been shunned, ostracised, lost jobs and children for coming out,
be it as gay or kink people. Homosexual acts were decriminalised, many other consensual acts between adults have not been, be those adults gay/straight/bi/trans or queer.

In the scramble to become respectable may 'gay' people are trampling on others who have been part of the struggles for acceptability for all types of queer sexuality.

It's ok to be gay but being kink or poly is letting the side down, fúck that.

Meesared

Sharrow wrote: »

It does, it's part and parcel of a persons sexuality.

It boils down to privilege and the hierarchy of what is acceptable.
Top of that is the hetro vanilla model and then how much a person deviates away from that pushes them further down the hierarchy.

Yes what a lot of 20 something don't seem to understand that homosexuality was considered for the majority of western civilisation to be a deviancy.
Yes social mores have changed but for those who have gained some measure of mainstream acceptance to turn around and look down their noses at others who were also considered sexual deviants by Victorian standards is hypercritical to say the least.

People have been shunned, ostracised, lost jobs and children for coming out,
be it as gay or kink people. Homosexual acts were decriminalised, many other consensual acts between adults have not been, be those adults gay/straight/bi/trans or queer.

In the scramble to become respectable may 'gay' people are trampling on others who have been part of the struggles for acceptability for all types of queer sexuality.

Noone here is saying its a deviancy, were just saying that being into BDSM doesnt affect a person in their day to day life to the same extent being gay or trans does.

Chuchoter

No it doesn't. LGBT is about sexual orientation and gender identity. To expand on that one, sexual orientation isn't just about sex, its about emotion too. To liken fetishes to who you love is just a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with being into BDSM or whatever else, its just not the same thing as orientation. You mention people losing jobs and such for 'coming out' as kink. Why in the name of god would you go round telling people what you actually do in bed with your significant other? TMI seriously. You come out as gay because people are interested in who you're going out with and its annoying tripping up on yourself with the wrong pronouns all the time. You come out so you can get married with all your friends and family.

Morag

Meesared wrote: »

Noone here is saying its a deviancy, were just saying that being into BDSM doesnt affect a person in their day to day life to the same extent being gay or trans does.

There is such a thing as the kink closet, many people who are into bdsm do have to live double lives like what 'gay' people have to due to people's bigotry. The same rejection, questioning, regrets, revulsion and self revulsion happens. There are many people who struggle with being into bdsm/kink and that is made all the harder by ignorance and intolerance.

Morag

crayolastereo wrote: »

No it doesn't. LGBT is about sexual orientation and gender identity. To expand on that one, sexual orientation isn't just about sex, its about emotion too. To liken fetishes to who you love is just a ridiculous comparison. Nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with being into BDSM or whatever else, its just not the same thing as orientation. You mention people losing jobs and such for 'coming out' as kink. Why in the name of god would you go round telling people what you actually do in bed with your significant other? TMI seriously. You come out as gay because people are interested in who you're going out with and its annoying tripping up on yourself with the wrong pronouns all the time. You come out so you can get married with all your friends and family.

Many don't, but often things slip out or nosy people pry.

bodice ripper

I have to say I am a bit nauseated by the attitude to poly and bdsm going on here. If people feel it describes them, they have every right to call themselves Queer.

And screw the notion that there is an amount of influence/suffering that must be brought into daily life before you can have the badge. That's petty and childish.

Meesared

Sharrow wrote: »

There is such a thing as the kink closet, many people who are into bdsm do have to live double lives like what 'gay' people have to due to people's bigotry. The same rejection, questioning, regrets, revulsion and self revulsion happens. There are many people who struggle with being into bdsm/kink and that is made all the harder by ignorance and intolerance.

But its nowhere near to the same extent though! Claiming it is, is nonsensical IMO

Asry

Sharrow wrote: »

There is such a thing as the kink closet, many people who are into bdsm do have to live double lives like what 'gay' people have to due to people's bigotry. The same rejection, questioning, regrets, revulsion and self revulsion happens. There are many people who struggle with being into bdsm/kink and that is made all the harder by ignorance and intolerance.

Over a fetish. I'd hardly say that compares to getting married to your boyfriend if you're a man, or introducing your girlfriend to your work friends for the first time and have them change their perspective of you.

And just because homosexuality was seen as a deviancy in the past doesn't equate to saying that BDSM or whatever is the same as a sexual orientation.

Chuchoter

Thats still not the same as the organized coming out you have to do if you're gay or trans. I can't imagine people telling their mam and dad anyway.

Morag

Meesared wrote: »

But its nowhere near to the same extent though! Claiming it is, is nonsensical IMO

And you know this how?

I see it in the many kink/bdsm communities I have been a member of over the years.

Asry

bodice ripper wrote: »

I have to say I am a bit nauseated by the attitude to poly and bdsm going on here. If people feel it describes them, they have every right to call themselves Queer.

And screw the notion that there is an amount of influence/suffering that must be brought into daily life before you can have the badge. That's petty and childish.

we're not arguing that they shouldn't call themselves queer, we're arguing that queer shouldn't be shoehorned into the LGBT movement.

rainbow kirby

Asry wrote: »

we're arguing that queer shouldn't be shoehorned into the LGBT movement.

...that's because it was always there.

Meesared

bodice ripper wrote: »

I have to say I am a bit nauseated by the attitude to poly and bdsm going on here. If people feel it describes them, they have every right to call themselves Queer.

And screw the notion that there is an amount of influence/suffering that must be brought into daily life before you can have the badge. That's petty and childish.

The point im trying to make is that its not a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, which is what Sharrow seems to be saying. I personally have no problem with people putting themselves in whatever bracket they want. Like for example i have few friends who are in poly relationships, and they are happy, cant say it would work for me but horses for courses and whatnot!

bodice ripper

Asry wrote: »

we're not arguing that they shouldn't call themselves queer, we're arguing that queer shouldn't be shoehorned into the LGBT movement.

I was aware of queer before I was aware of bisexual or trans. the horse has bolted...

Morag

Asry wrote: »

Over a fetish. I'd hardly say that compares to getting married to your boyfriend if you're a man, or introducing your girlfriend to your work friends for the first time and have them change their perspective of you.

And just because homosexuality was seen as a deviancy in the past doesn't equate to saying that BDSM or whatever is the same as a sexual orientation.

BDSMDs is as much part of a person's sexuality as thier attraction to a person due to gender.

If your a sub missive person and a dominant man is what does it for you then
that is as much part of a person's sexuality then it is if your just into men.

crayolastereo wrote: »

Thats still not the same as the organized coming out you have to do if you're gay or trans. I can't imagine people telling their mam and dad anyway.

Many people do, ti family and friends so that they do not have to hide their relationship and it's dynamics or have people get too concerned over bruises or rope marks, because living that sort of double live takes a lot and is draining.

Chuchoter

Meesared wrote: »

The point im trying to make is that its not a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, which is what Sharrow seems to be saying. I personally have no problem with people putting themselves in whatever bracket they want. Like for example i have few friends who are in poly relationships, and they are happy, cant say it would work for me but horses for courses and whatnot!

Thats kind of what I'm getting at too. Call yourself whatever you like, but don't pretend its the same as being gay.

Platinum2010

Why do I feel as though this has turned into a b*tch fight??

PJelly

Sharrow wrote: »

It does, it's part and parcel of a persons sexuality.

Everyone has specific way's they like their sex. It's not part of their orientation.

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes what a lot of 20 something don't seem to understand

Why are you bringing age into this?
And I'm not "20 something" thank you very much.

Sharrow wrote: »

that homosexuality was considered for the majority of western civilisation to be a deviancy.

And it still is to an extent.

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes social mores have changed but for those who have gained some measure of mainstream acceptance to turn around and look down their noses at others who were also considered sexual deviants by Victorian standards is hypercritical to say the least.

Not to be rude, gay people are kind of "looked down upon" I suppose, a little more. Like gay bashers who wait outside a gay bar, or people who insult someone because they're camp. But you can't exactly "look down" on someone who's BDSM in the same way as you can't exacly have "BDSM bashers" (there's a joke there somewhere) hanging outside BDSM clubs.

Suppose what I'm trying to say is, in these cases, you're mostly persecuted (if you are at all) for your orientation, not your kinks. Not like you'll get someone going "He clearly has a thing for tall people! Get him!"

Sharrow wrote: »

In the scramble to become respectable may 'gay' people are trampling on others who have been part of the struggles for acceptability for all types of queer sexuality.

... What?
Are you saying that people are "masking" their kinks to become respectable gays?
I just don't know where to start to be honest.

Sharrow wrote: »

It's ok to be gay but being kink or poly is letting the side down, fúck that.

Poly? When was that brought in to this?
And I don't see a problem with people liking BDSM. I just don't think it's WHAT your sexuality actually is. Which is what I think LGBT, or QUILTBAGPIPE or whatever you use tries to encapsulate.
Again, I repeat. Using this logic. I could say I like men my own height. And demand that LGBT is changed to LGBTMMOH.

bodice ripper

crayolastereo wrote: »

Thats kind of what I'm getting at too. Call yourself whatever you like, but don't pretend its the same as being gay.

neither is being bisexual or trans. yet here we are.

Chuchoter

bodice ripper wrote: »

neither is being bisexual or trans. yet here we are.

You know what I'm getting at if you had read all my other posts. I mean orientations and gender identities

Links234

Goodshape wrote: »

And I'd say that goes double for Trans people.

I'd be double disappointed in any trans person who thought that way, considering we often suffer transphobia from within the larger gay community, from people who wish to distance themselves from us.

Asry wrote: »

we're arguing that queer shouldn't be shoehorned into the LGBT movement.

you know what? I'm happier attending fetish events than I am at gay bars or gay events. I think at least the fetish events make a better effort of being all inclusive.

wonderfulname

Platinum2010 wrote: »

Why do I feel as though this has turned into a b*tch fight??

Because it has?

PJelly

Sharrow wrote: »

BDSMDs is as much part of a person's sexuality as thier attraction to a person due to gender.

So... You find someone who's the right gender. Looks cute. But you pass on the opportunity because of some BDSM act (Very ignorant of me I know, I don't exactly know what different acts there are) that you think they wouldn't be suited to?
Or how would BDSM change your attraction to someone?

Sounds very rude I know. But I'm genuinely curious.

Meesared

wonderfulname wrote: »

Because it has?

Thread has run its course IMO, Lock time?

bodice ripper

crayolastereo wrote: »

You know what I'm getting at if you had read all my other posts. I mean orientations and gender identities

I know exactly what you are getting at. But your point is weakened by the fact that you are happy to have included trans (with which I take no issue btw...) which is not a sexual orientation.

So you can't say T is part of LGBT even though it is not a sexual orientation, it is a different thing - and follow it up with Q is not, becuase it is not the same as a sexual orientation or being trans, it is a different thing.

that makes no sense

Why are you/we/whoever so tied up in trying to keep people out of the club? Seems insecure to me.

"We're normal human beings, just like everyone else!" *everyone else starts to arrive* "Oh, crap. Well, no, not like these guys. Because they don't have to suffer in public like I do."

Speaking as a bisexual, I have heard that crap before.

PJelly

Meesared wrote: »

Thread has run its course IMO, Lock time?

It's just turned into...
"Yes it is"
"No it isn't"
"Yes it is"
"No it isn't"

wonderfulname

Ah don't lock, mod, there's still a few genuine loose ends here

Meesared

PJelly wrote: »

It's just turned int
"Yes it is"
"No it isn't"
"Yes it is"
"No it isn't"

Yep its done!

Links234

wonderfulname wrote: »

Ah don't lock, mod, there's still a few genuine loose ends here

I'd agree

and it's seriously disappointing to see people invalidate other people's experiences

Chuchoter

bodice ripper wrote: »

I know exactly what you are getting at. But your point is weakened by the fact that you are happy to have included trans (with which I take no issue btw...) which is not a sexual orientation.

So you can't say T is part of LGBT even though it is not a sexual orientation, it is a different thing - and follow it up with Q is not, becuase it is not the same as a sexual orientation or being trans, it is a different thing.

that makes no sense

Why are you/we/whoever so tied up in trying to keep people out of the club? Seems insecure to me.

"We're normal human beings, just like everyone else!" *everyone else starts to arrive* "Oh, crap. Well, no, not like these guys. Because they don't have to suffer in public like I do."

Speaking as a bisexual, I have heard that crap before.

I was actually just sick of writing out sexual orientation and gender identities every time. It was laziness, nothing more. I've stated that the two things are different but since they share similar prejudices, they're linked. My issue with queer is that I'm failing to see how parts of it are linked to us at all.

rainbow kirby

Leaving it open for now as long as discussion stays on-topic.

Meesared

Links234 wrote: »

I'd agree

and it's seriously disappointing to see people invalidate other people's experiences

Noone is trying to invalidate anyone i dont think, but the fact is this has devolved into an argument that hasnt moved on in 4 pages.

Links234

Meesared wrote: »

Noone is trying to invalidate anyone i dont think, but the fact is this has devolved into an argument that hasnt moved on in 4 pages.

I think people saying "you don't suffer XYZ the same as I do!" is invalidating.

Morag

PJelly wrote: »

Not to be rude, gay people are kind of "looked down upon" I suppose, a little more. Like gay bashers who wait outside a gay bar, or people who insult someone because they're camp. But you can't exactly "look down" on someone who's BDSM in the same way as you can't exacly have "BDSM bashers" (there's a joke there somewhere) hanging outside BDSM clubs.

Suppose what I'm trying to say is, in these cases, you're mostly persecuted (if you are at all) for your orientation, not your kinks. Not like you'll get someone going "He clearly has a thing for tall people! Get him!"

Yes.
Yes this does happen.

I know one submissive guy who was beaten up for being just that and one dominant woman who was attacked and attempted rape to teach her her place.

Most kink events/meet ups are invite only and you only get told where and when after you have been meet and vetted due to this, and arsholes and reporters.

PJelly wrote: »

... What?
Are you saying that people are "masking" their kinks to become respectable gays?
I just don't know where to start to be honest.

I have been at 'gay community' events and the collective opinion has been that bdsmers are lower on the food chain I have seen remarks made and those who are also bdsmers say nothing rather then be cast out or targeted.

PJelly wrote: »

And I don't see a problem with people liking BDSM. I just don't think it's WHAT your sexuality actually is. Which is what I think LGBT, or QUILTBAGPIPE or whatever you use tries to encapsulate.
Again, I repeat. Using this logic. I could say I like men my own height. And demand that LGBT is changed to LGBTMMOH.

It is part of a person's sexuality and as intrinsic as someone being the wrong gender when people's sexual wants and needs do not match up.

PJelly wrote: »

So... You find someone who's the right gender. Looks cute. But you pass on the opportunity because of some BDSM act (Very ignorant of me I know, I don't exactly know what different acts there are) that you think they wouldn't be suited to?
Or how would BDSM change your attraction to someone?

Sounds very rude I know. But I'm genuinely curious.

Yes people pass, they are fun, cute, attractive but they are a top/bottom or their sexuality and what they are into does not match with mine so it's not going to happen.

Platinum2010

I think there are 2 people who are turning what could be a good insightful thread into a battle ground and it's not air for the others involved