Cork GAA Discussion Thread

rebel girl 15

Injury news - Aidan Walsh was winded and Lehane has an inflammed knee tendon, but neither are expected to miss game time. Luke O Farrell's shoulder injury will require an MRI

ShamoBuc

That's good news, in particular Lehane and Walsh. Not surprised Walsh was 'winded' - could easily have been a red for that challenge. Both of them starting on the half forward line the next day would make a huge difference.

malascoile

will lehane be able to play fitz?

thinkstoomuch1

Great news,lehane is okay,and Walsh is also,when you consider for the football we need him against Dublin on March 1st.

O Farell,has an  awful injury i wish the lad the best with the MRI scan but its not as devasting to Cork  as the other two as we have other  options and he's replacable,lehane is not and walsh will if played at 12 will prove he is the same value to the team in time


I agree re the views on Maynooth in the Sigerson Cup, they are a very  strong team ,and its a huge huge ask  but with Morgan hes shrewd and cute as a fox.

Clancy ,I hope hes fit , a huge loss otherwise.
In fact i would ,put clancy in at full,as eoin o mahony is weak at 3,brophy  if he moves in from half forward a real danger or mcbreaty a real danger,with mcnichohlas.Clancy isnt a natural full back, but is much safer than Eoin O Mahony ,and is suited to Macbreaty,a strong physical player.


I would bring brian o driscoll back also and put him at 7,with  a job to track,the athlete and spinter wallace,as he has the pace for him.
I would take cronin out of 11 put him at corner back.

UCC have kelly,sub kerry keeper ,mcnanarma played with kerry,Clancy v Mcbreaty,Cronin,Shanahan,Dorman ,and O'Driscoll in defence.
Defence wins games.

Maguire at 8 with Nation to partner him.

Kiely at 10,similar role to o dricscoll but not as deep but as a third midfielder as with mccauley and Kelly,and Cribbin drift in,they need Kiely ,very good last week ,and also against dub u21s 4 weeks ago.


Connolly at 11,to play link role.Take Quinlan out and play him at 12.
Yes your taking out the danger man,but Maynooth are waiting and will target him.Bring him out,if needs be put him in ,during the game.

Replace him, with a new but just a lethal threat,Sam Oakes 7 goals in the Senior championship with Bishoptown in the run to the semi final.Direct ball he will get goals,he couldnt start such quailty ahead of him.Super Cox in the corner and Geaney make it a lethal unit.One goal could decide it,Oakes can get you a goal like Quinlan could.


They have to change things around as  with inertercounty lads in Conway at 6,Mcauley and Kelly at midfied,Cribbon,Brophy,Wallace,Macbreaty and Mac nicholas ,this is like a Inter County team .UCC expierence of 5 semi finals in a row should stand to them,but the team that played CIT won't beat a star studded Maynooth,who a point down late in the game ,showed great,resilence and grit to win a battle.


Crokes proved like i said after the Castleaven game,can win a game of football ,but are beatable as they cant win battles.Teams that win all irelands at any level can win both games of football and battles in dog fights,war of attrition.Maynooth arent all fur coat no knickers or all hair oil with no socks,with just talented players.There a real team,have substance,heart and grit ,resilent .
UCC are the same ,but they will have to evlove to beat maynooth who i believe there is more in them.


Paudie Sul is currently training ,JBM even said that thursday and i agree he is an option in championship ,but  I also share connorzee view also he has missed a lot in the time and injury he had,and for him,touch is everything,its he's greatest weapon but with such a huge absence from the game,he will struggle to get that back so fast,May is tough ask ,if were hurling in august may be okay,as he can get club games,challenge etc,as to sharpen hurling he needs game ,games games  at club.


Coughlan missed the league last year and it was July ,August before he got touch back to close to whats needed.Pebbles may be similar in that regard.

Super lad,super player ,13,14,15,not a half forward.Huge loss to Cork last year but we have more options this year if hes not ready straight away even with O Farell who may be out now for a bit.


I wouldn't be at all worried regards LEADERSHIP in the front 6.Horgan has taken a lead role now,the player when the need is greatestest he stands up and takes a score .I was he's harshest critic last year and said he must stand up .Couldnt fault him now,and that All star has given him a rebirth,real belief,he belongs on this stage.The complete player,attuide blessed by outrageous skill and poise and guile and elganece.He glides across the park.

.People say that movement isnt hughely important and at half forward isnt a problem,and that what said to me saturday night,and some one said Horgan is lightening fast either which is true and is the same as Cian mac in pace terms.He aint fast ,but he can move
Cian mac who has it all bar movement,watching Horgan move and Cian mac is worlds apart for example.What is the difference between movement in terms of gliding effortlessly across the ground,or feet being heavy on the ground???


In horse racing,its all about fleet of feet and speed.I will use this as an example to illustrate the difference and what movement is all about.

In horse racing watching Hurricane Fly cruise to victory time and time again ,compared to Thousand stars,that brave  admiradble,you can only love that Grey horse with great stamina , grinding ,and putting all he can in just to  competing with Hurricane fly ,and 9 times out of 10,all that effort is beaten by just sheer elgance,and fleet of foot.Yes he will finish every race ,against the elite,but he rarely wins them.He puts huge effort in but stuck to the ground in a sense.

Thousand stars is a super warrior gutso,great great heart,he can win  races at ease with other sub standard horses  etc.At the elite level  in Grade ones he lacks that bit of speed and rarely wins against the best,as like Hurricane Fly,there movement is they lift of the ground rather that be stuck to it with less effort..A Thousand Stars Effort can't be faulted.And he has won many fans for that and he's courage and bravery and never say die attuide.The harsh reality is he will never win a Champion Hurdle.Longer races,hes stamina wins the day.


Cian mac in hurling is brave,full of hurling ,and attuide ,but cant move at the pace,or fleet of feet required.Its a shame as he has it all bar that.The reports today say he had a good 1st half and was splendid.They failed to highlight ,thats what he does on occasions and has always done.What they fail to acknowlege,was he cant finish a game,or sustain any infuence on a game for full 70 minutes even on heavy going.He has to put such much effor in to moving ,he expends a lot of injury and is out on hes feet.

To illustrate hes movement,have a close look at the point he got,where Rob O Shea i think it was played in a ball ,it bypassed, the limerick defence ,he was the only man free.He had to run around 20 ydards or so.
Watch hes stlyle of running.He was struggling to get to the ball,and was slogging it out to even get there.Hes hurling or sharpness was never the problem,Mobilty was and still is.

When Moylan went through for the goal ,see how fast Walsh had turned and made up ground,in that he was level at the time of the strike of the sliothar by moylan,he wasnt even out of breath.

Yet he gets a great review ,when hes been around since 2010 but hasnt moved on.It wasnt fair to criticse him in 2010 in the All ireland Semifinal against Kilkenny in Croke Park,the Cauldron it is.That was a young lad making a debut against the greatest team ever in championship.

But now Its perfectly fair to question and criticise him and expect way MORE in that it was a player in a league game at home ,4 years on but couldnt do the LEAST EXPECTED in that game.Yet people say he was sharp,had a fine 1st half.He got 2 points,average when i expect more.Paudie o Brien got two points yet played a super 70 mintues.Alan Cadogan got two points in hes debut and dome much more than Cian in hes debut.
What was hard to fathom,noboddy said he faded ,or why he was taken of.Surley if you judge a player ?you must question,why he was taken of.

And by the same token were terribly unfair in comparison regards Debutant Rob O Shea,that he worked hard etc without any great success but he faded in a 70 minute match in hes debut .

What did Cian Mac do ???he faded thats what he done but oh no dont criticise him,or say what many Cork fans saw.
Rob O Shea has work to do,but he was Superb and contrary to the myth he wasnt a success he was a tremednous success in a poistion not suited to him at intercounty.
He won most ball that came hes way ,fought for every ball and won a lot around midfield which had 3 limerick men ,and could do no more.When he was moved back to half forward,he ran and chased and covered ground Cian mac in he's best poisition could not do.



He is not or won't be the 1st player with mobility issues.Ned Keane,tipp man,full back was tough and superb with Blackrock,but mobility and he couldnt turn was the reason he couldnt play intercounty with Cork.


Ian Mcdonnell Na piarsaigh,a protoype of Cian,but faster hands,but is an  ace free taker , has strong,hurling and powerful etc0but Mobilty is the reason he is not Intercounty .If he had mobilty he would be.They have tried spinning,sprints you name it ,the antrim ,top strength and conditiong coaches worked with him ,just can't get it with him.It is the same with Cian Mac,and when an athlete,and irish record holder to this day ,can't increase Cians mobilty ,what more can you do.If the management keep playing him and asking the lad do a job he can't do for 70 minutes,there at fault for starting him time after time.

Dan Mac Eoin in a similar predic ament,but has improved a lot and continues to do so.That lad got up at 6 in the morning ,cycling and constanly doing various other training to get where he is.He is 21,and will continue to improve.

Maybee ,full forward is the last option , for Cian that he could do a job,as a sub maybee.Having said that ,The problem is though he is hardly better than horgan or cronin if it comes down to it or Michael Cahalane or pa callaghan in time or if O Farell when he gets over he's injury ,gets back to hes 2012 form.It sounds harsh,to drop him,but it must be done.And can you have a player on a panel just as a sub role??


Davy took of Tony kelly ,a player of hes calibre,he was having a poor game,see my point.You must be RUTHLESS.A huge difference in not just the manager,but a welcoming acceptance in Clare fans also ,that reputations count for nothing,your only as good as your last game ,in that they welcomed that attuide and call by Davy.It was Even in evidence in the Clare thread,where a poster said he was delighted,Davy made the call ,and it showed you must be better than last year to play for clare.I posted here in January,i was at there 1st training UL North Campus with the 1st training session of 2014.
Three things he made clear

(A)The players there starting had to be better to keep there place.
(B)the subs much better than those starting to dislodge them.
(C)And the panel members better than the subs to make the final cut.

Also he spelled it out clearly ,No drink ,stay away from it or sanctions would be imposed.
And stay away from twitter.Everything i said regards what i saw myself with Clare training,was said and much more in a brillant piece in the SundayTimes by Denis Walsh,and he emhphasised regards pace,that every drill is at pace,and Faster,Faster,Faster.

The night I saw them Davy said there Season started there.
Cork's season should of started Saturday night.People want to use Cork training since the 16th would want to look at Clare,similar to us ,had a holiday in January yet they beat a Kilkenny team training hard since December ,8 weeks in and much better than limerick .
Clare picked a team to win,we did not and to blame training,injuries,missing players ,referee which jbm and the media have blamed is wrong in that ,noboddy fails to say what i said Thursday night was a poor team and would struggle.At half time i said changes must be made.One was made.gmore were needed then.Also don't forget Michael Sullivan came on because O '
Farrell got injured.
We lost this game on the sideline.


If i hadn't witnessed it myself,you would always wonder what Claqge training is like .Honest to God,its unreal to watch and anyone in to hurling or any sport should watch it .You would pay good money to see matches with no intensity etc in some instances.Here you get to watch a team with more intensity in Just a training session for free,just petrol in a car.


Cahalane done good as a sub Saturday night ,brave,worked hard but it was a baptisim of fire in that Limerick had crowded the middle third ,had a huge head of steam and momentum up.Hes day will come,have no doubt.The lad has it all.He struggled as its understandable ,he would win ball when Ard Scoil crowded him out in the Harty Cup two weeks ago.
At senior level,in a game of savagae  intensity he never had a chance,be fair to the lad.

A wise head on young shoulders,in that gave up u21 football as with u21 hurling ,senior ,and club and the leaving cert he know he had to give up something.
Back to the point of LEADERSHIP
Cronin is a super captain and led the side on hes own for years.
Harnedy became a leader,from hes ist game against Clare to the interview after ,remincsent and if you couldnt see harnedy you would think it was Paul o connell or Peter o  Mahony.He spoke about what it meant to him,honest values,club,who reperesents etc.

I said it then and I say it now a Future Captain of Cork,shy ,quiet unnassuming of the field,a warrior once he crosses the lind.Brave,commanding,watch him clenching the fists after scores or roaring at others around him.


50 minutes gone Cork 4 down in the  1st half  in the drawn game, and we could not even buy a score.Clare were dominating.He won the next puckout against 3 clare men and got a great score .In the 1st 10 minutes in  that game ,got our ist with a  point to settle the team.Then he put hes head in the line where many wouldnt a put a boot in the ist day ,got the ball on the ground,and offloaded it superb reminicsent of joe Deane in similar scenario in the same aera ,out by the same sideline and made Naughton match winning goal against waterford in 2006 all ireland semi final.Cork got a point from that offload.

Cork needed a goal in the replay he got that goal. Then the Game was nearly over before honan got the  last goal,high ball in to the square ,and Cometh the man-cometh the hour,he stood up plucked an outrageously diffcult ball only for naughton to make a hames of it.
Thats leadership by Harnedy he inspires those around him.Only injury can deprive Cork of that.
Aidan Walsh has won All irelands,munster,leagues in football etc,two All Stars,young player of the year,brings huge leadership to the team .Thats four up front with read leadership,last year we had none at this same time.Leahane is on the way and will become a leader.


Paudie has leadership ,and hes commitment and bravery re injury is similar to colm o neill,hes still involved with the team,and great for morale etc,but without him we wont lack leaders up front.No fear,we have them in the half forward and full forward line.


Problem is defence.Shane o neill and Nash have it in abundance,real leaders.
Murphy if he stays has it in spades.


The huge worry is leadership at half back,and Joyce who has potential is being severly comprimsed by being a midfield/centre back,and then when he is in there a one man show with no protection like saturday night.


Joyce is a leader,but like Munster done with Peter o mahony ,in dropping o connell as captain ,allowed him grow and become a leader.
Joyce needs time to grow.
Mcloughlin,super hands.intelligence and good delieviries would be ideal beside him.He has tenacity,presence and leadership.

Watch Munster u21 2012 loss to tipp by woeful decisons on the sideline by ger fitz.
Joyce's one man show at centre back was superb.But watch right at the end of the game.A lot of lads were waking of,ah  were beaten it happens ,unlucky etc.


Joyce stood still and was absoultely gutted ,he was frustrated you could see it in hes eyes,he was furious Cork lost a game ,should have won ,4 up in the last ten,beaten when outscored by points.
I walked over on the ptich and said thanks joycey you did all you could lad,the man nodded ,but it meant nothing to him,as he was a broken man,winning Means everything,i watched Ronan O Gara documentary ,and hes state of mind and expression when Toulon beat them in 2012,to fail to make the knockouts,he was in tears,it meant so much to him,at that time,Nothing else mattered ,we lost.
Joyce that night was the same.

Fast forward 2013,against Kilkenny,beaten by a point,a lot of cork people would have settled for that,as a real fear of hiding existed.Joyce lead with mcloughlin all day long a wall of restiance to wave after wave of attack.He thundered and blew larkin of the ball with a shoulder as electric as a thuderbolt of lightening,it pierced right through its victim and the ground shook beneath larkin.Larkin was winded ,but such is the great man he is,he  never complained.You could see he had respect for Joyce.Here was a young boy ,showing a man he meant buisness.Like keane v overmars in 2001,that shuddering tackle early in the game,a  REAL statement of intent.
Those tackles inspire a team.


Game over,and i said it then,cork with  some lads had a moral victory expression.Joyce was shaking hes head,clearly seen giving out.Again he knew it was the one that  got away.
Leaders,dont settle for second best.Its not in there DNA.There Winners.They have a huge WIll to win.

Im a in no doubt Joyce is up to it,but he must be given time,if he had a constant run of games at 6,he would be there now.He has hurling intelligence,brave,loves the hard stuff ,and has hurling ,for there.

Lacks yard of pace ,but not slow,faster than keane,ellis etc.He has a boxers background ,it shows,he has feet nimble and quick,balance and agailty,he has no fear.

That lack of midfield pace would and has been at club exposed,jerry o connor ,with the legs gone destroyed him newtown v na piarsaigh 2012 in mallow.

They put him centre back he was a colouss.The biggest concern in leadership is at half back.We have two leaders,maybe 3 in the full back line ,and 4 up front,two half forwards ,2 full forward line ,and one in kearney at 9.My biggest fear is he will be made scape goat for Saturday.I hope to sweet Jesus they dont a role reversal of Pa cronin and try Walsh at 6.Yes we need leadership,but Walsh is no centre back and hasnt played there for kanturk.He is good under the high ball,has physhique but lacks the reading and astute anticpication a Centre back must have .
He played minor for cork at half back but wasnt stand out ,like he was at a forward.Also why in the name of jesus would you deprive yourself of another All star in the making half forward ,ball winner and scoring threat and sacfrice that for a job he cant do

Centre back issuses we musnt overcomplicate an issue that doesnt need to be.I have no problem when people say we need changes,but some of the stupid suggestions said to me after the game,begs belief.


One lad said time to bring back cusack ,as sub keeper ,and Darren Mccathy at half forward in place of trying walsh at 12,I didnt want to be rude,i said ah sure ,a lot of hurling to be played yet .
Jesus ch**st ,it begs all logic.We have an abundance of half forwards with aerial prowess ,pace,strength,agailty ,and if want fast light hurlers we have them in abvndance,so why would we use Mccarthy who is a terrific forward,cork club team last two years in a row ,but not better than Lehane,harnedy,sullivan(in he can do a role ,mccarthy cant ,too many hurlers wont do,got to have the right balance)coughlan,walsh ,lawton,cahalane ,much better options at 10,11,12.

Is he a better inside man than,moylan,cadogan,horgao,cronin,paudie when fit etc,pa callaghan etc,no hes not.People must be realistic.


Kearney led Sars in the county final 3 points,was very good in a one man show saturday .He has leadership qualites at midfield.

Half back line we have no leadership as were picking the wrong lads and not allowing them grow .Thats the aera of concern regards leadership.


In regards the match reports from yesterday,Everything i expected,the failure to say what needed to be said.All this no panic ,who were missing lark,cronin,harnedy etc.

No real hard painfully blunt ,but  constructive questions asked.
Look who limerick had missing,Hannon ,David Breen,Hickey.
Downes didnt play a full game.In fairness to one very good reporter he mention that fact.

Cork had  14 men ,home advantage and were well oves 1/20 to win the game after 20 minutes with 15 men in live betting.
No real questions why we failed to win a game ,crucial to the mindset and believe of this team and why that twice ,in the management term,we have failed again to use the extra man correctly.We lost to Tipp,in Cork 2012,with an extra man.That was excusable ,in that we were a team in development mode.No excuse regards Saturday night.People question the loss of cunningham.Too early to say.
The wrong team was picked,plain and simple.


Ellis got a played okay comment ,steady than anything spectular rating,but he hit 3 Great side lines balls.Im sorry folks what good is that,he can hit a sideline ,and yes there were perfectly excecuted ,but he cant do the basics of winning ball,on the ground or being miles of your man or the failure to get in the game.Egan,Joyce,o Neill,Kearney,Lehane,Michalane Cahalane(40 yards a sublime point in horrible conditions in the Harty Cup Quater Final v Dungarvan etc can all hit sidelines but more Importantly they can Hurl at this level.This is not American Football,or Basketball where you whip a guy on or off at will to perform a defined role.

This is Hurling  and it is an Absoulute Must  to perform in much more duties as a half back.If were going to give rave reviews on player's just for Sideline cuts alone,lets bring David Drake on to the panel,the best man in the County to take a sideline ball.Itdoes not work like that in Hurling.

They say Ellis has a bit to go yet,but will benefit from that game.
He has a Long long way to go and i doubt he can get there.This lad struggled at U21 ,level couldnt impose himself ,and has done nothing of note in club or college gamer bar being good to average to say he is our best option.He has had two years on the panel.Should of made an impression in that game.Harnedy,o shea,cadogan ,sullivan took there chance ,thrown in at the deep end .There was nothing in that game to show he has what it takes .


He ,has always been great strength wise,i believe bench press ,weights etc,he is the best in the Cork squad.Thats great,but you must have hurling also.
Tom kenny said naughton was the fastest man in the cork squad.I dont doubt that,i have seen him train at club and with cork.As proven he lacks that something for intercounty.Ellis is the same.
Compare him to Nagle ,Spillane ,they have what he has in strength to a point but so much more to there game.JBM,said he wanted hurlers first and foremost.White and ellis are a contradiction to those believes .


Cody done bleep tests this year it was said in the paper ,yesterday,all got over 20,the highest was 22.8.
That had to be sto standard to make the panel ,fitness.

The difference with Cody ,and it should not be lost in translation ,is every player he picks ,has Hurling.Yes there big ,and physical ,but they must be hurlers at the end of day .If they are not they wont make it.White and ellis are big physical units like Keane but either lack the speed of mind,speed of legs or the hurling for half back.Limericks,raw possesion ,short passing game exposed white and ellis numerous time in a tight confines of pairc u rinn.


Imagine  a refined Clare ,smooth and finise,with real intelligance and pace in kelly ,ryan ,conlon etc,who would just pick them off one by one like stephen hendry pocketing balls at ease ,which one next on the table, the way to a Century break in snooker.


John Conlon would have the strength like Hannon ,or John Conlan ,for Ellis or white but more importanty the pace and hurling to do real damage.Players of even less quailty in hurling wise,like Breen or Prenergast would still have too much for them.


White failed to get any mention ,in most reports.It certainly wasnt a case of watch the quiet one ,a shut mouth catches no flies.
The harsh truth is he simply done nothing to be worth mentioning.He wasnt quietly effective but outshone by Ryan  and others ,who isnt a half forward and had a quiet game by he's own standards.
So do you give him another chance and say he may get there some day and be hopeful.Or do you be realis ic,look at the hard and bare facts,he is a player that has been under different Cork managers and failed to make an impact.Got more chances than most last year,ruthlessy exposed by Kilkenny in Knowlan park.
Spillane as a sub that day showed more potential in hes legaue debut that day than Ellis or white have shown in more games.
Start them against Laois ,and they will be fine ,physical team ,lovely jubbly, that lacks at this stage the players with the hurling to expose them.And people will try and convince you like the football ,this is the best we got in the county.Rubbish,i could name five players in a heartbeat ,better than them.

I dont buy the glass half full lark,yes we will improve by picking the best team,but my main thoughts on Saturday is A GOLDEN CHANCE WAS LOST.

ShamoBuc

Anyone know if there is a larger post on boards.ie than the above?:)

I enjoy your posts, when I have the time to read them.
I presume you are not on Twitter?:pac:


Cronin, Horgan, Lehane and Walsh 4 forwards that can and will cause damage to any team. Throw in Paudie and that's 5/6 of our starting championship forwards I think - bring on the next few games and hopefully big winning margins, anything else and it will be a poor start to the year.

thinkstoomuch1

Walsh and cadogan are unavaible for next week hurling,and the antrim game ,but availble for offaly march 9th double header 12.45 ,but wont be ready for Derry game at 2.3o in football.


Will be availble for the wexford game,last game in the group.
The big question is when we have a quaterfinal in hurling ,if it clashes with kerry away in football,what happens.



In cadogans case it makes Saturday night look worse again as he now has 3 weeks before he gets game time.And he needs hurling.Walsh does but not as much.

There with the footballers this weekend for a challenge match.


Lehane is fine for tommorrow v ucd ,at least i expect him to make the bench.

Cronin likey to be fit for saturday.


Ucc should win it ,saw ucd and were poor against ul ist game.Depends on the Ucc team ,to decide the winning margin.

Buckley a senior with kilkenny will have a field day against roche or murray who are not at hes level.Rob o shea could be and must be at midfield to counter him.


Barry coughlan waterford is full back,and they have patrick murphy,sinnott of wexford,Walter walsh,and david tracey if fit and jack guiney dangerous if they get space.

Willan egan is at 7.Ucc could struggle and win,but if they pick the strongest team and play lehane in the halforwards could win in a canter.


John griffin of Cork is on the UCD panel,unlikey to start i would think.

Archer3083

I think at this stage it really is almost impossible to be a dual star. It's very difficult to serve two masters. Ultimately, it will probably backfire and hurt both football and hurling for both players.

sean mac

We now have a situation where cadogan will 'possibly' play his first game of the year in hurling on 9th of march vs offaly!!!! Considering he will only meet up again with the hurling squad a few days beforehand how in the name of **** is this meant to work lads? his last HURLING game was with douglas in September and his next will be in march vs offaly if he gets game time.
I cannot understand how he or walsh are supposed to develop their touch, get their eye in, quicken/improve their striking all the areas they need to come up to speed with to work this 'arrangement'. Aas witnessed by wlash the other night he needs loads of hurling at this level and besides his own personal ball work will not play hurling again for a month..........
I was sceptical before this happened, after hearing comments from people like gavin, griffin and chin in recent months and seeing walsh on Saturday night I now don't believe this can benefit either squad or the players themselves, the elephant in the room which no one is willing to mention of course except liam griffin recently -what do the other players think???? as he stated don't for one minute think all of them are happy with this arrangement, only meeting dual players occasionally, getting selected over a fella who is totally committed etc

Archer3083

Great post. I completely agree!

thinkstoomuch1

Seanie lad,excellent post,i have been against dualisn practially a one man show here since october, and said many times its a farcial lark and a joke it is.


I was told by one poster,that managment knew what they what they were doing and give it time ,and it worth a try.I was told more or less stop harping on about i.Yes i sounded like a broken record but as a cork supporter who wants nothing but the best for us and want to hear "we are the champions" or simply the best,better than all the rest" rather than "whats another year".The way some people go on we should accept things as they are.Cork gaa ,shouldnt be a case of ,dont question whats wrong.
And theres people out there that must love Ronan keating,as there view is" you say it best when you say nothing at all.


No point in getting Bruce in the pairc last year ,we should have got johnny logan ,"whats another year"
In that has been the case for a long time with minor hurling,football,u21 hurling,senior hurling etc.

I gave a very detailed post explaing why it wouldnt work with every challaenge,league ,hurling and football ,in hurling and football.


Walsh i said was the best and only option ,hes lifestyle gives him a chance.
Cadogan and cahalane are a waste of time trying it.
Great to see someone else speak the hard truth and not go with the status quo.

keane2097

Lehane missed the Fitzgibbon game this afternoon. Alan Cadogan played instead of him and got three points.

lukin

Surely JBM, Cuthbert and Walsh will see sense and recognise that playing for both Cork teams this year simply will not work out? He's only played one game for the hurlers and he is already injured.

Archer3083

lukin wrote: »

Surely JBM, Cuthbert and Walsh will see sense and recognise that playing for both Cork teams this year simply will not work out? He's only played one game for the hurlers and he is already injured.

It's not all down to the coaches. It's the player's personal choice afterall.

sean mac

Archer3083 wrote: »

It's not all down to the coaches. It's the player's personal choice afterall.

Only to a certain extent archer, the players have to be selected first!

Archer3083

I think it's a little more orchestrated than that. I think there would have been discussions between JBM and Walsh/Cadogan before being named in the squad. No manager would realistically allow a player to snub a call up to the squad. It would be embarrassing. I think Cuthbert had a private word in the ear of all the players that retired this year before they announced their decision to retire. It had all the hall marks of being choreographed.

It's hard to blame both mangers wanting both players. Anthony Daly would love to have Ciaran Kilkenny and Cormac Costelloe line out for the hurlers but that won't happen.

thinkstoomuch1

Its 100 per cent a managers call in that you spell it out one or the other like gavin did with kilkeeny.Up to them which one they go for.

thinkstoomuch1

That sickening feeling of real disappointment is still with me today,when I think of Saturday.
The laois game is of huge relvance in terms of a huge scoring difference ,but i wouldn't be regarding it as any sort of conoslation or blow out the cowbebs from last week in that ,i won't be jumping from the rooftops or blowing a huge win out of proportion if we do that  , but have no doubt the eternal optimists  in Cork  wont see any huge win at face value,like last weeks defeat didnt get the crticism it deserved,a win will get overblown.


No disrespect to laois but the mininum standard of Cork to regard Saturday as acceptable is at least a 15 point win in my view.Thats not me being ignorant to Laois or dissrespectful,im saying this in terms where Cork are at now and Laois and our expectations for the season,we want to be all ireland winners,top this div, where in contrast Laois want to beat westmeath,a challenge for them,and stay up in div 1b,and continue the excellent progress under Cheddar plunkett.


They have the last few years made huge progress at underage,doing trojian work at u14 level up in deveopment squads,u16 and making progess at minor and u21 is expected to challenge dublin in there 1st game.

Liam O Neill with the "Hurling for Laois initive" and the Setanta progamme ,introduced in 2006 is starting to reap benefits ,first Minor final in leinster since 1991 this year ,won a few  of the last Sony walsh  u14 B tournments the last few years ,have taken on wexford,offaly and beat them,played kilkenny club teams,competed and beat them as well as in tournaments and beat tipp teams,galway and limerick etc in development games.


They haven went down and played limerick deveolpment squads in limerick and they Beat Galway in u16 in Arabawn tournament last year first time won a A game grade and ran Tipp close also.


There u15 beat Cork u15 developement team(we have lads there and will make the minor grade and play dean ryan and harty cup games in the future)4-18 to 2-16 in laois last year and got 4-14 from play.They won an u15 tournament later on in the year.
There making progress and its great to see.

Pat Crithlchey and Plunkett like many voluneeters are fighting the good fight.It would be great if they got money like Carlow,westmeath ,antrim ,etc to invest ,as whats amazing in all those counties the will of the people at ground level ,but by there county boards (after the Teddy mac shambles of course)in the game up their.


Wille hyland is there marquee player ,and played wit LIT, under Davy in two fitzgibbon cup finals.Once there developed they have talent to play at the top level .

I would genuinely love them to do well as Cork and laois always had a good hurling relationship ,and i was there at the game when we got 10-20 in 2010,and no cork man wanted that scorline,in fact i like many clapped laois scores ,as it wasnt good for the game and also it was a false dawn under walsh reigme,it done us no favours.

I geuinely felt for them ,Teddy Mac became manager,i like many knew he would be a dissaster up there,record in management is awful,shouldnt be with any intercounty team  ,and I admire Hyland for hes brave interview to say what needed to be said for  the good of a Laois  Hurling,and say that hes management was a shambles ,no game plan,no plan and players wouldnt play under him in 2012.
As a young hurler to come out against Teddy mac,a great gaa man ,was commendabe and brave,but he had the courage to do it.

Teddy Mac is the Greateastet Dual player ever,one of the greatest midfielders ever,still hughely passionate in that and credit due he was i saw at the Hamilton harty cup quater and semfinal games ,and i wouldnt be suprised to see him in cloughduv for the Munster B final .He owes Cork nothing as a player in either code .Remember hes goal apainst Meath in the ist minute in 1988.


What he isnt ,and many in Corks Top table and some of our media fail to acknowlege he isnt suited ,hasnt the skillset for management.
Hes with chriost ri u15 doing work and with North mon.Thats fine hes a good man to teach the basic skills etc.


Manage an intercounty team,astue management,modern management he aint suited to I'm afraid .He was with Newcastlewest and he left.No success there.


Now before people get  this Do Not criticise A Great ,im critising him soley as a manager,not a player or a person.

John fitzgibbn ,cork two time All star,super player in 1990,played senior in 1986 at 19 for Cork and a Glen rovers man,a real goal machine(we have yet to find someone as good and as consistent  in big games in open play ,he gave open opinions not clouded with emotion regarding hes club mate ,hes team mate in 1990,Captain of Cork , All ireland winner at minor,u21,two time all star Tomas Mulchay when in 1995, and he said that the hurling standard back then in Cork was poor ,in such the Carbery won a  county in 94 beating teams ,that old glen teams would of beat other teams out the gate,but the Standard in general in the Current game wasnt great either,and said that and more regards Mulchay.

But he had the Honesty and courage to Say that as great as Tomas Mul was, he wasnt a Dj Carey(remember DJ had not even scaled hes true peak yet in 95 so it was a brave but fully justified opinion as time went on to prove) or a Michael Cleary.

He's  quote in the book the History of Hurling  Second Edition(p312)was as follows:

"I'm very pessimstic about hurling.Look at Cork .The main city clubs are not producing the hurlers.Carbery won the championship last year.Yet the clubs teams of the 60's and 70's -the Rockies ,the Barr's and the Glen-would hammer any of the present teams by fifteen points or more.In my humble opinion ,only DJ Carey  and Michael Cleary have Real star quality .The rest are all hurlers at intercounty level,but nothing compared to the past.I'm talking now strictly about skill factor.There are other fellows like Tomas Mulchay who are great hurlers,inspirational but in a different way..."


You see my point here was a Glen man putting in to real perspective what another Glen man and friend of he's, talents were and were not.He was right ,Mulchay one of the greatest captains ever,two time All star was a great player ,but he had he limits compared to others.



And see he's openess and raw honesty, 18 years ago to say real problems existed in Cork hurling with city clubs in particular..He saw them then,the ones that existed,and the problems the future had lying await.He was honest and humble just like Hyland was to say the home truths that had to be said for the greater good of hes County.


Unlike Cork ,where many of the problems still exist in the city ,Glen or the Barrs  havent won a county since that quote(by the skin of their teeth last year escaped relegation) ,Blackrock won a few titles since 95 but no county in over 10 years ,where no action was taken ,and some of those problems still remain etc and its no wonder Cork have just 3 senior all irelands,two U21 hurling,3 minor in the last 18 years as a follow on from the problems he highlighted in Cork hurling:My point is one of our own there was short and sweet regards Cork hurling and he said what needed to be said.Its a shame they did not act on it.Credit due ,the Rockies and the Glen have started to put the work in and get there house in order and shouldnt be too far away in the ftuie.The barrs have started that rebirth with a good new manager but they have a lot of work to do and have to start like the rest ,and Douglas who are flying,bulid from the bottom up.There is no quick fix for real sustainable success in any sport at any level,it takes time and you must put the work in and evolve with moderns time.Evoultion has and always will be the key to survival.Those that snooze,loose out.

Laois learned from the failure of Teddy Mac and appointed Cheddar who got them promoted last year.


There is the posibilty Teddy Mac could again be invloved with a Cork team ,as the top table are clearly a fan ,and hes a high profile name.
They and rightfully so gave him huge support to the launch of he's book.
Its just a pity though the same support was not given to Sean Og this year,when he like Teddy was a Dual star and came close to winning both in 99,but he Captained Cork in 2005 to the All ireland .
That would not be in Cork Hurling interest if he was to be an intercounty manager down the line.
He had hes time with teams and it did not work out.

Laois are making huge progress and i do hope Liam O Neill when he leaves hes office in the President ,that he gets in to a main role with them and drive on there development in leading from board level,as they have a lot done but more to do.


The problem for them is it wont happen for them by Saturday and you would be expecting it to take a few years ,and staying up would be there main target and a u21 leinster in that half of there senior team if not more are in that team.


They ran  galway close and beat offaly in tullamore for the 1st time in over 60 years without a good few of there regular lads,Hyland was just a sub.


But Cork are completey different to Offaly,touch wise,speed wise ,skill wise etc,and offaly who are yet to win a game,Cork are at an advanced stage to them .

Hyland should start againt us.
Campion at full back played fitzibbon with ucd,whelan the centreback when he was at ul,and Foyle and Maher at  Carlow It,so they have like hyland got top level exposure at colledge level .But  it is a young team ,like last years minors Joe Campion and Dwane Palmer may start against us and are potential stars but we have a strong team,so we should have too much expierence.


Brendan cummins has been up with them,with Eoin Reilly the goalkeeper and also working with the team so they are getting the best coaching.
But if Cronin starts,o neill ,egan,joyce,kearney,lehane,horgan,moylan,lorchan etc ,we should be winning this with a bit to spare.


A month ago in ul in the North campus Limerick beat laois in a challenge , in hurling 3-17 to 2- 8.


Quaid,o loughlin,mcarthy,carmody,o brien,o mahony,cathal mcnamara,o grady ,tom ryan,reidy,hickey,james ryan, michael ryan,tommy quaid,ghrame mulchay was the limerick team that started.
A strong team 2-9 with only two main forwards from there main team in mulchay and james ryan yet they got 3-17.Mulchay got 2-1.Offaly missed goal chances sunday apparenty, so we must go for goal.

I'm not expecting 10 like in the match 2011,or Pat horgan or Lehane  to break the Record for A cork senior hurler scoring 8-7 in a league game like Jack O Donoughe of BallyClough was meant to have done against Antrim in a league game(that what the story is,not sure is that confirmed),but im realistic to expect at least 4(we got 3 each in two all irelands finals) and i expect Horgan such is the talent to go for goals,like moylan and cadogan at every chance availble.Goals must be the order of the day,score as many as you can,and concede none.I fancy Limerick to put up a big score at home to antrim ,and o grady will have it drilled in to them goals .

Yes it was a month ago and a challenge match for Laois but looking at our team we have no excuse if we dont get a big win ,in that limerick forward line was poor overall and Laois are missing zane keenan and gearoid burke arent with the panel, ,  john brophy,brian dunne,james walsh are injured .
We are missing a few but we have players to replace them unlike laois.


Harnedy came on as a sub for Ucc today,i would have him as a sub.

Mcdonell is meant to be fit,and coughlan also.We on paper are a bit further down the road than laois.The mindset of Cork must be right ,but you can help them greatly by picking the best team for the job saturday ,on thursday night.

With walsh out,cronin now being fit my team now would be
nash,o neill,keane,(played football with the barrs the weekend)killan murphy,lorchan,joyce,egan,kearney ,o shea(great game today when he went in at 9)lehane,sullivan,cronin ,cadogan(superb today)horgan,moylan

Subs

Mccarthy
Spillane
Mcdonnell
Haughney
Coughlan
Cahalane
Lawton
Harnedy



Ucc were poor enough today by there own standards in the Fitzgibbon and like i said if they picked the wrong team they would struggle in fact,were haunted to win ,when mccarthy brought of a super save to walter walsh ,and literally after that james barry got a soft lucky goal,similar to both goals in the harty cup semifinal with Ard scoil and Hamilton.It dropped through the goalies hand,and should have been a six pointer but for the brillance of one keeper and the mistake of another.


Buckley destroyed the midfield like i said he would ,roche and murray will struggle against intercounty lads ,but O' shea made a huge difference when he went  around there.
That half forward line of mccormack or o shea at 12 wont do against dan morrisey or tom ryan of ul should they meet and padraic walsh would clean up at midfied.


Spillane was excellent when he came on ,harnedy too,barry super captain at the back ,and alan cadogan was also brillant with wille griffin of limerick super,has been all season and will surely push Tobin hard for a place on the limerick senior team in time.


Spillane must go to 3,fives if fit at 5,with barry and prendgerast at half back,lester may need to be tried at corner back and o shea with lawton or murphy(poor today,but a good season) at midfield.

Sugrue ,harnedy ,lehane ,griffin,o donnell and aherne/barron the front 6.

They have played poorly in two games i saw ,but today were in real danger of loosing it ,as the team wasnt the strongest today.


If they play Ul,they have to field a strong team.Yes in the weekend you got to play the panel so lads are fresh but they have get the team right cause better teams than ucd will put them away.The changes and expierence and brillance of mccarthy combined with a luck goal got them through,i would imagine that is there get out of jail card used.They can win it outright and beat ul (be close but i expect them to beat LIT  tommorrow)should they meet.


Walsh will be a huge loss for the Dublin game if he is out.Brian hurley got 2-2 from play for Munster the weekend v connaught and while they conceded a lot in defence kevin  o driscoll an unlikey starter for Championship played,it was an all kerry defence that conceded the scores.


It was encouraging to see from the match report all five cork forwards,kerrigan(2)collins point ,Walsh kerry taken off,Goulding 5(1f , 1 ,45)hurley 2-2 and Donnach o connor got 2 points.The forwards all played the full game and got 2-12 of Munsters 2-16 ,and 2-9 was all from play.


Munster lost but it was meant to have been a great game,it shows Cork forwards can score and is positive  that there flying in form for the  Dublin game.Brian O dricoll came on as a sub.Rory Deane was taken of at half time ,i hope he was not injured.


If we pick the right team and walsh is fit we have a great chance to push them all the way.
Cuthbhert holds the key to a point,next tuesday the best availble team must be picked,full of pace against a fast team in Croker park.

Archer3083

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Its 100 per cent a managers call in that you spell it out one or the other like gavin did with kilkeeny.Up to them which one they go for.

That's not practical and you know it. Cuthbert doesn't have the authority this year to force the hand of Walsh or Cadogan. Both Walsh and Cadogan are effectively getting on the bandwagon with JBM. They now think they have a better chance of major honours with the hurlers. They're prob right when you consider the strength of Dublin. Last year, both players went solely with the footballers. I think that's because they both thought the hurlers had no chance. In fact no one though the hurlers would do anywhere near as good as they did last year. Counihan for all his faults had that authority to demand players pick one side and one side only. Cuthbert needs time to develop and assert his authority.

And although I don't agree with dual players. I don't think that Cadogan would be a major loss to either the footballers or the hurlers. But I do think that if Walsh had to pick one over the other. I think Walsh would be a major loss to the footballers, and I'm sad to say, but I don't think he'd be that much of an asset to the hurlers. I might be wrong, and it might be a bit harsh, but I don't think Walsh is up to the standard of inter county hurling. Intercounty hurling is played at a much higher tempo and pace. Walsh is playing against players that only play hurling, and in the case of some players, he's playing against guys that only play hurling at club level too. Even with all the natural ability in the world, I don't think you can dedicate half your time to a sport and be as good or as reliable as a guy who dedicates 100% of his time.

thinkstoomuch1

Its 100 per cent practical ,and i wouldnt have said if i didnt believe it.When a player isnt picked for a team,he wants to play ,despite hes indivudal wants he doesnt or isnt in the best place to make a call.Every player on a panel ,wants to play and believes there good enough to do that.

A manager steps in,buck stops with him.End of .


If something is clearly hindering a team,the manager must step in and say enough is enough,fitness, discipline,attutide etc.He drops him.

Same here,dualisms is hindering the football ,cuthbhert calls ,it should be,we all know it isn ,too many other stakeholders want dualism.


He should say i want 100 per cent commitment and avaible when i want you,i demand rather than negoiate your availbilty.


Davy told a few of hes players were meant to go on holidays to put it back a day around two weeks ago as he hadnt seen enough of them training and made it clear ,had to train that day,.They did.

Call it unpractial,unioly,intolherant,not inclusive ,what ever you want,its simple Davy is ruthless and thats why Clare are all ireland champions and will win another oneThey do what there told to do and when to do it.


Jim gavin did he or he did not spell it Out that kilkenny plays football only or not at all,he made it clear,such daly said he didnt get a chance to really talk to kilkenny.To answer your point,its practial for thdm manager to make that call.Now you may not know that ,but if you check it ,you will know ,thats what happened ,and what i do now ,and not what your trying to tell me that its a players choice mainly ,is just nonense.


A manager sets a house of rules at the start of the season .One is no dual code .Players decides then.



You see players injured in spor,like rubgy bang in the head,bod v all blacks.Did that legend want to come of?no he said he would have played on.For hes safety and benfit team ,he wasnt allowed and correc ly so allowed to make the final call.Nor was joel scgmidt.Doc had to ,as he had no conflict of interest.


Here dualism ,manager rays you cant do both codes at elite level.Pick one.Extremely realistic and practial for a manager to make that call.

Archer3083

You've been heavily critical of Cuthbert. What do you think Walsh and Cadogan would do if Cuthbert gave them an ultimatum. My opinion is that he doesn't have the authority yet to deliver an ultimatum to a player. I think they'd go hurling only, and then he could be left with neither of them. He would have taken your advice, made the call and be left with a generous helping of egg on his face! He's not stupid. Do you not think that he's already thought about this. Do you not think he's already discussed it with both players. Do you seriously think Cuthbert wants either player to play hurling. It's obvious he's got to put up with it whether he likes it or not. If I were manager of the Cork footballers I'd put a stop to dualism if I could. So would you! So would any manager!

thinkstoomuch1

I have been like many critical where its been deserved.
Lets summarise where i have been critcal,be crsytal clear.I said at the start on records alone cleary was better choice ,and unlike some dint have unrealistc nonense that Jason ryan shoul manage Cork or Jack o connor when that was never going to happen ,and was a waste of time suggesting an outsider manager,never on the agenda has stated and rightly so by the Cork county boardg

I critcised hes lack of a proven management around him.Time will tell.
I criticised hes selection of sheehan,keane ,canty etc who hadnt any hope of starting for cork in the orignal panel.I was right,never made the cut.
I have critcised,i dont sit on the fence with he selection at corner back and midfield,was the only one to say cleary they were concerns and deane and galvin were better options.I was correct and justifed and well you know it gkad ,if you dont you didnt watch cork v kildare or see what many said here regarding what i said,the same.

I criticised hes leauving cadogan out of the panel for kildare as we had no natural full backs,and also hes failure to giuje galvin a chance,when injury to clancy ,he got it and proved what i said he had class.


And i havent and have no intention of lauding a man with praise for the sake of it ,after two games at home where tougher tests lie await and hes up against all ireland manager.If you want to be excited work away.
Im not an optismist or pessimist,judge whats in front of and well you know am more right than wrong,say my views before a game like i did with jbm a legend,he picked a poor team,i said it .I dont do one rule for jbm etc.

I have more faith yes in jbm ,he earned that.Cuthbhert unproven yet.


I gave credit where due ,game plan,intent to move the ball at pace,and the picking young lads .I questioned the players in some aeras picked to execute that role ,that had several chances with previous managers and failed.


I say what many others see.


A manager must make a statement of intent.If the boys walked no one would blame cuthbhert as many feel he would be right to make them choose .And the rest of the panel would know he meant buisness.

Egg on hes face you said,if they walked.
What do you think as liam griffin said other panel players feel with dualism.They arent surely at ease as he said with it.


If cahalane joins both after injury it aint good.Players respect hard calls if he said has to be 100 per cent commitment.
Jbm came calling.Cuthbhert should of said no.If cadogan doesnt make the hurling team and misses football ,what does it look like them,in fairness.

Cadogan didnt play one minute of hurling yet and him and cahalane have no chance of making starting team.


Walsh has the best chance of all of them,and hes lifestyle,age injury record showed that.

He should of said walsh we try it out ,the rest no.

And by the way walsh was by hes own admission a better hurler than footballer up to a fews years ago,but footballers called him up first.

Archer3083

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I have been like many critical where its been deserved.
Lets summarise where i have been critcal,be crsytal clear.I said at the start on records alone cleary was better choice ,and unlike some dint have unrealistc nonense that Jason ryan shoul manage Cork or Jack o connor when that was never going to happen ,and was a waste of time suggesting an outsider manager,never on the agenda has stated and rightly so by the Cork county boardg

I critcised hes lack of a proven management around him.Time will tell.
I criticised hes selection of sheehan,keane ,canty etc who hadnt any hope of starting for cork in the orignal panel.I was right,never made the cut.
I have critcised,i dont sit on the fence with he selection at corner back and midfield,was the only one to say cleary they were concerns and deane and galvin were better options.I was correct and justifed and well you know it gkad ,if you dont you didnt watch cork v kildare or see what many said here regarding what i said,the same.

I criticised hes leauving cadogan out of the panel for kildare as we had no natural full backs,and also hes failure to giuje galvin a chance,when injury to clancy ,he got it and proved what i said he had class.


And i havent and have no intention of lauding a man with praise for the sake of it ,after two games at home where tougher tests lie await and hes up against all ireland manager.If you want to be excited work away.
Im not an optismist or pessimist,judge whats in front of and well you know am more right than wrong,say my views before a game like i did with jbm a legend,he picked a poor team,i said it .I dont do one rule for jbm etc.

I have more faith yes in jbm ,he earned that.Cuthbhert unproven yet.


I gave credit where due ,game plan,intent to move the ball at pace,and the picking young lads .I questioned the players in some aeras picked to execute that role ,that had several chances with previous managers and failed.


I say what many others see.


A manager must make a statement of intent.If the boys walked no one would blame cuthbhert as many feel he would be right to make them choose .And the rest of the panel would know he meant buisness.

Egg on hes face you said,if they walked.
What do you think as liam griffin said other panel players feel with dualism.They arent surely at ease as he said with it.


If cahalane joins both after injury it aint good.Players respect hard calls if he said has to be 100 per cent commitment.
Jbm came calling.Cuthbhert should of said no.If cadogan doesnt make the hurling team and misses football ,what does it look like them,in fairness.

Cadogan didnt play one minute of hurling yet and him and cahalane have no chance of making starting team.


Walsh has the best chance of all of them,and hes lifestyle,age injury record showed that.

He should of said walsh we try it out ,the rest no.

And by the way walsh was by hes own admission a better hurler than footballer up to a fews years ago,but footballers called him up first.

I'm well aware of yours. Didn't need another post concerning your views on Cuthbert in general. I agree. I would have preferred Cleary. I think you're overly critical cos it's early days yet. Give it a full year of league and championship and if he's still making mistakes that are obvious at that stage then I'll be critical of him too, but he at least deserves time. Not everything can be done over night. I think he's started as he means to continue. I like the style he's bringing to Cork. He said in interviews what he was going to try to do. So far, he's sticking to his word which is impressive. But forget about all that for now and focus on dualism.

Do you think he should have given an ultimatum? If that ultimatum was given who do you think the players would have chose? And, finally, if he did give an ultimatum and the players chose hurling, would you agree that that would damage Cuthbert's reputation?

My answer is clear. He can't give an ultimatum because Walsh, Cadogan and possibly Cahalane would choose hurling, or at least 2 of the 3 mentioned would choose hurling. I think Cuthbert knows he doesn't have that power/authority. He hasn't earned that trust from the players yet. I also think that if the players chose hurling, it would be detrimental to his reputation and his position.

I don't think it's fair to criticise Cuthbert or JBM for players choosing both football and hurling because it's obvious neither can put a stop to it. No one in their right mind would allow it unless they genuinely couldn't put a stop to it. And it's not fair to use the example of Davy in Clare. Players haven't a chance in hell winning anything with the footballers. So, it's not much of a choice, stick with Davy and win medals hurling or go off with the Clare footballers and win nothing. Dublin is a good example. It's obvious that Jim Gavin is more respected by the players than Anthony Daly. And it's obvious that players feel they have a better chance with the football team than the hurlers. The only contradiction I can think of is Conall Keaney. He won 5 Leinsters with Dublin in football and chose to go with the hurlers. He may have missed out on 1 or 2 All-Ireland football medals but I suppose the guy is more passionate about hurling.

Connorzee

Big shock in the Fitz with UL being dumped out by LIT. Jack Sheehan of Erins Own at FB for UL, replaced after 50 mins however. Tony Kelly with 1-10, 6 of which were frees. UCC are surely favourites now.

thinkstoomuch1

Lit v ul ptich 1 grass ptich in excellent condition despite all the heavy rain,shock of the round in the margin of victory as Lit won 2-16 to ul 1-13 truth be told ,lit work every point of there win ,as they a fine hurlers in key aeras,no where near ul strength of team or panel wise yet they won as they had Hugnger,raw f**cking hunger that does Davy well known cliche but cant be underestimated*fight like dogs and they had a direction and purope and abilty but Real intent all over the ptich.


Ul,eoin brislane is a fine coach,i think he is the main man and not lohan as again like two other ul games i saw  ,is the man up and down the sideline ,roaring instructinns.Lohan is the manager on paper,id love to be a fly on the wall ,know what hes role is .Either way ,the clare man and tipp man were outfoxed and outhought by Davy(a genuis ).

Davy of often gets unwarranted abuse thats .ges a dictator ,what a stupid myth,lads that say that wouldnt know a sliother from a tennis ball,if hit them in the nose,bounced back up and them hit them in the eyes again .

Hes the man commander but he surrounds hes teams with lietantants better than most managers at intercouy teams.
He was in the middle of the ptich today,eyes glazed,across the ptich,fixated on hes team,every breath he took,hes mind constantly watching every play,like a computer running various programs at the same time.
Two weeks ago even before lit were set to get to a q final davy was at ul ist group game v ucd,i posted here he was at it.He had belief ,lit would get that far,but knew ul were the main danger,he always sees the bigger picture and had hes homework well and truly done.Have no doubt he has hes homework done on wit ,and is planning how to beat them no.He wont wait.


Whats makes davy stand out unlike some spoofers he can read a game,adapt to its everchanging flow.

He had jimmy browne ,clare u21 teams ,minor etc,ard scoil fame(a man huge input in Ard scoil success and sure to be gaelic grounds saturday harty cup final)
Was up on one side of the ptich roaring at forwards .


Cyril farell bottom left corner doing the same with foswards ,keeping shape,encouraging and give a bolloking when approriate.Cyril is a gentleman,loves cork hurling,on the field ruthless and shrewd.
Saoirse buffin and fraggie murphy stood by davy ,ready to do what he said to do.What a management set up.Fraggie is the pretender,the raw recruit,learning from the masters,what a set up to in ,2 intercounty all ireland winning men and browne an astute man with bags of expierence.

This is great for fragggie and for Cork,as he will improve under davy ,and hopefully can addd to Cork with coaching sars or maybee an intercounty minor team etc,and hes tranisiton like paudi kissane should be monitored by the County board.

You see coaches can go to all the seminars ,get all degrees in sport science but not worth the paper its written on ,if they dont get real expierence of the best.It is only he who wears the shoe knows exactly how it fits.This expierence fraggie is getting,money couldnt buy.



Davy had lit ,playing the clare system,two man full forward line,half forwards,dropping back to midfied and the he half back line having a sweeper.Lohan as a clare many very naive never countered it ,hit long ball after ball down to lit ,who it was meat and drink to them.as ul had all the star players ,but couldnt do anything as they got no ball for any long periods with a huge wind 2ndt half .went in 10 to 6 down at half time ,and in the 1st half it was the same.


Ul had the all star players,lit had the all star management team.

Lit from the 1st minute the ball was thrown in were intense hunted in a packs,like wolves,any ball they had was short crisp passing.


Jack sheehan had a good game,but in truth wasnt tested today as jamie shanahan who started instead of hickex droped to half forward.The odd time he stayed at 14.He picked up a lot of loose ball,had good cleasances ,but clare wanted him to do that.Half back line of flaherty,dempsey of limerick,and boyce ,clare hurled ball after ball.O connell played super at midfield,just beyond half back,with kelly dropping deep and picking of long range points ,at ease ,and walsh got two of kikenny ,but was allowed space  as he couldnt get through that half back line ,congested middle third.Again not afraid to hit hard,and had to be warned by the referee once,wasnt poor,everything he done he was composed and assured,id like to see more of him,but what i have seen so far i rate him better than ellis and white,playing out of poistion,he looks at home at this level.
Was replaced but that was due to ,carmody pushing up and with the two ryans run at lit .gand trying to get ball beyond that half back fortress of lit ,when they needed to get ball in to forde and glynn who had more than the beating of lit unit



Podge collins knows now why clare win matches as today at 11 he was victim of that style,had no space or ball,as seanie o brien man of the match,in a sweeper bulger role,from half forward.ryan of limerck and ryan of clare were surerb bv again any ball down to heffaranen or glynn who had a crucial  miss at a time down by 5 one one win murphy the limerick keeper he kicked wide,twas easier put in it.Murphy was injured for 5 mintues in the challenge much to every fans relief he rose again and was fine.
Seanda morey and carmody two intercounty lads came on ,but morey did make an improvement,in the congested middle third,but too little too late.carmody came on for sheeahan and pushed up further,too late again as lit had a lead that they could allow ul get points,just dont let them get goals and they swamped the full back line,no way through.


Forde got a super goal out by the right corner ,start second half ,a blistering bullet, then a super sideline ball to level i .ghad o gorman in in real trouble ,but didnt get enough ball,as o connell dropped deeped as a buffer and intercepted ball afer ball,if o brien hadnt done it before him ,and fed kelly who was like a sniper ready to kill ul of at any chance.He fed shanahan when the need arose and they fed ivors for a splendid pile driver to bury ul.


Kelly moments earlier ran in from deep took a pass by the sideline and lobbed a glorious deft lob,hasset hadnt a chance.Kelly had a poor game sunday,like all great players wont have two in a row .Awesome,a beautfiul ,such a sweet goal it was covered in poise and elgancey ,like Jiselle strutting herself on the stage ,every man in awe.Today it was kelly stage ,four wonderful poins and a wonderful goal from play and So Much More,every man,woman and child,that were blessed to be here  in the crowd of around 600 or so,had the grace to watch hurler of the year by 2,and all for just cost of 1 euro magnificent.Thank you lord for giving us hurlers of kelly artistry and sheer intelligence and skill.Amen.

O BRIENwas stupid,to slap the hurley in to the ul lad stomach ,as lit had the game well and truly won at that stage ,and now is out for a month for lit and limerick,and a huge huge blow to lit,if they play ucc in the final.Complete madness ,lit fans even said it.Theres controlled aggression ,and then theres that .Kirwan the Cork referee had no choice but to send him off.


Dan morrisey ul cb destroyed begley hes fellow county man,and ryan of clare was good,problem was that half back line stood still in that it never moved deep with their memd and lit played short tappy hurleyand played around them rather than through them,davy way in a nutshell.


Browne and flanagen played well but when lit played the short game ,and had overlaps it created two brillant goals by ivers and kelly.


Uls indivaulds didnt play as well as they could or simply allowed to play ,and had a lot of wides but lit with less talent won with a better system of play that suffocated the life out of ul ,and it was system shut down for them .


Lit should beat wit ,o brien a huge loss and ucc who i expect to beat cit would have more talent and a bench than lit but it will be won and lost on the sideline if they meet.Study old clare games as that exactly lit way to play.Unlike Clare they  dont have the players for a plan A and B.Today the sweeper system is there only system.


Lit i feel would have a system to beat wit.
If they get to final,it will play right in to davy hands if its ucc,as noboddy gives them a hope.A ul member to day said they might as well hand ucc the cup,as they will walk it now and lit if they make it wont have a chance.Lit were 6 to 1 to win and a 9 poing handpicap.I thought ul would win but said it would be very close.

If you play 15 v 15 or all hurlers and lads that arent up or willing to fight or have intensity against lit youre in big big trouble.Also like Clare,and Donegal you cant let them start well,and chase a lead,as there system is set up to blitz you with the 1st 20 minutes ,then defend in numbers and counter at pace.If a team gets a lead,the whole dynamcis change ,as you can play there game,protect the lead,force them to come out and play an orthdox game they just dont have the forwards or players to play.
Brian o reilly ,cork shanballymore is on the paneal and a fine club player but thats it.Hes on the lit panel,like others show they dont have a panel of real depth.


You must have a system as lit swarm like bees around honey the middle third,and Kelly is the main man to link that defence system in to attack as he has the skill ,intellgence to create,but the artillery to score.Lit are very like clare,easier to beat the right play,system as unlike Clare Lit just have kelly,they have very good players but none like collins,ryan,o donnell,galvin ,bulger,donellan etc and that
.You must double mark Kelly.Put your best man marker on him but another lad in midfield and hes only role is if kelly breaks hes marker,you there to stop him.Yes you leave space for other lit lads but there not proflic scorers from distance kelly is.

Full back line of o gorman,minehan,nolan are exposable one on one.



I named the ucc team on the cork thread picked to beat ul should they win,i would stick with that team,but would start cormac murphy at 9,but get him to play a sweeper at half back ,and he has played there.


O shea needs to play deep just ahead of half back with harnedy and lehane rotating and going to midfield to get the ball and either run at the clare defence ,create the off load,or keep the full forward line of o donnell and cadogan as far up as they can be to the lit goal,and fast long deliveries as there is goals there ,but you can only get goals if you have possesion.
O donneall ,davys most potent weapon could be hes biggest enemy.

To beat Lit ,you wont out hurl them ,ul tried that today ,you must breat down that system ,and it takes not tappy fast wrist hurlers,it takes resilent,strong,brave,and warriors that will win the hard ball .Ucc do that and they would win if ucc and wit  as they have forwards that can score and should be fresher in that they can play a lot of guys that should have enough to beat cit,but keep there big men fresh for the final.Lit dont have that luxury,as they dont have big panel ,and play at such an intensitys it is very hard to replicate that within a 24 hour turnaround.


I said today would be close ,thought ul would win,but the sideline froze.

Enright,cody,casey have to be sharper.Was gutted had to miss cit game,but wanted to check out the enemy in wait .glad i went here,as it was a great game.

Another College game tommorrow,ul v ucc qater final fresher A 1.30 ul north campus, it should be a classic and Ul be up to atone for today with the younger stars.If i make it up from cork may go.two corkmen with that ul team tommorrow as far as im aware.


I wasnt the only cork man that would have liked to be in cit game,i see john cronin of lisgold and cit,who played for cit today, father at ul game,putting up the scoreboard.Real hurling men.


Great day for hurling.Arent we blessed as people to have Hurling such a wonderful,truly wonderful game.
i posted a picture of both panels in the fitzgibbon cup hread,with updates i posted throughout the game.

Horse84

I have a good bit of respect for Davy, but I'm not sure I'd call the man a genius now. He has a serious crop of players brought through underage at Clare and is getting the most out of em no doubt but to say he can read the flow of a game and adapt, I'm not too sure. Some Clare supporters would have issue with that.
You need only look at the Munster final in PUC 3 or 4 years ago when tipp literally dragged wford asunder with Davy in charge with wford backs not holding their positions. He wasn't a genius that day.
Like I said I'm not knocking him but geniuses are hard to come by.

Archer3083

Horse84 wrote: »

I have a good bit of respect for Davy, but I'm not sure I'd call the man a genius now. He has a serious crop of players brought through underage at Clare and is getting the most out of em no doubt but to say he can read the flow of a game and adapt, I'm not too sure. Some Clare supporters would have issue with that.
You need only look at the Munster final in PUC 3 or 4 years ago when tipp literally dragged wford asunder with Davy in charge with wford backs not holding their positions. He wasn't a genius that day.
Like I said I'm not knocking him but geniuses are hard to come by.

I agree. It's a bit early to call him a genius, but he's certainly well on his way to deserving that title. He hasn't won enough yet to be considered a great manager, but one thing I'm hugely impressed by is his ability to make a difference and win titles with different teams. He's done massive work with Waterford, LIT, Clare. I wonder how big an influence Cyril Farrell has been on him. He had that ability to win with different teams in a way. He won an All-Ireland with Galway in 1980, and came back a second time in 1987 and 1988.

thinkstoomuch1

Horse84 wrote: »

I have a good bit of respect for Davy, but I'm not sure I'd call the man a genius now. He has a serious crop of players brought through underage at Clare and is getting the most out of em no doubt but to say he can read the flow of a game and adapt, I'm not too sure. Some Clare supporters would have issue with that.
You need only look at the Munster final in PUC 3 or 4 years ago when tipp literally dragged wford asunder with Davy in charge with wford backs not holding their positions. He wasn't a genius that day.
Like I said I'm not knocking him but geniuses are hard to come by.

Thats a vaild point in fairness.one allireand,must win another one.

Id say he learned a lot from cyril alright.

Horse84

He's young yet, he's nearly certain to win another one or two. He has learned a lot from the mistakes of wford too it has to be said. At the time I remember talking to one or wford players and even lads in college teams under him who wouldn't have rated him at all. Thinking back they were that bit older too and had their own ideas. I think Davy does have that pull over younger lads whether he could be a success with more mature players is yet to be seen.
Now this is a cork discussion thread so enough about him lol

Archer3083

Horse84 wrote: »

He's young yet, he's nearly certain to win another one or two. He has learned a lot from the mistakes of wford too it has to be said. At the time I remember talking to one or wford players and even lads in college teams under him who wouldn't have rated him at all. Thinking back they were that bit older too and had their own ideas. I think Davy does have that pull over younger lads whether he could be a success with more mature players is yet to be seen.
Now this is a cork discussion thread so enough about him lol

I'm not a big fan of Davy's personality but you can't fault him as a manager. You can't allow your personal feelings to cloud your judgement of a person. And If I was every a county board I'd have no problems appointing Davy, but he'd drive you mad. Ditto. We can't talk anymore about Davy cos it's a Cork discussion board and our messages would be deleted by the mod anyway

thinkstoomuch1

We could thank davy yet,fraggie our wonderful player ,captain ,underrated super in the 2004 final coul learn a lot under hes wing.:|