Music Scene In Ireland

flyswatter

Been asking around and it seems the only way to make money gigging in pubs/local venues is to do covers?

There are a lot of new up and coming bands and talent on the scene but does anyone feel that venues such as this should be paying musicians money for their original material and not carbon copy/inferior versions of other peoples songs?

Was watching a band doing Beatles covers in a good music pub there, decent enough musicians, good singers but there wasn't anything original or interesting about the interpretation of it. By the way, when they played an original song of theirs, it wasn't much cop.

Has this always been the case with the cover scene and is this detrimental to music here in the long run?

shayleon

trying to make a difference :
http://www.petitiononline.com/mlpmoir/

krd

You have to remember, Van Morrison started off in covers bands. The Beatles were originally a covers band. U2 never were -

The audience in Ireland for original material that's not that well known is really small.

I'd prefer a bad original band to a ropey pub covers band any day of the week. I like hearing music I've never heard before - or to hear stuff done differently.

Playing covers is not a bad way to get started - if you can make money out of it, that's not such a bad thing. And there's showmanship and musicianship things you can pick up along the way.

Welease

Their business is selling alcohol not music.. They will hire whatever band suits their customer, and the bulk of those customers would likely rather a decent covers band than an unfamiliar originals band..

dav nagle

shayleon wrote: »

trying to make a difference :
http://www.petitiononline.com/mlpmoir/

I just signed there, fair play Shay. I wonder if the people who run boards would sponsor a free advertisement for the petition if they had the resources and time. Something like this will need allot more than 45 signatures.

krd

Welease wrote: »

Their business is selling alcohol not music.. They will hire whatever band suits their customer, and the bulk of those customers would likely rather a decent covers band than an unfamiliar originals band..

There is a market for original music. Not that many bands are that original - covers or no covers.

I think ,,,, what causes things to break down is the "here is my crap.. now open wide as I shove it unmercifully down your throat" thing - if you know what I mean.

If a band is playing a pub - regardless of what kind of music they're playing the idea is to entertain the people.

ball ox

The "pay to play" culture that swamped Dublin in the 90's has a lot to answer for IMO. Get paid to play other peoples music or pay to play your own....

I think it comes down to the fact that Dublin is relatively small and the casual gig goer is a rare species.

maccored

My theory is that original bands should get paid when people want to pay to see them.

The problem is that there aren't enough people willing to put their hand in their pocket and support original music at the grassroot level. maybe in dublin there is, but in a non city environment its not worth a venues while to put on an original band. The band have the choice of renting a venue, but again, chances are the punter just wont bother their arses going and it ends up being an expensive choice. If more people where demanding original music in their local pubs things would change quickly enough.

madtheory

No, if the band is good enough and has done a decent advertising job, people will come to see them. To make a living from music it has to be sold like any other product. Painters and sculptors know this. It seems to be beyond most musicians though.

So expanding on krd's point, if no one wants to hear you play, take a good hard look at the quality of your product...

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

So expanding on krd's point, if no one wants to hear you play, take a good hard look at the quality of your product...

A point I've been making since joining this Forum a few years ago.

godfrey

A venue booker I know says he regularly gets emails and calls from completely unknown bands looking to play there, and willing to accept as little as €500 for a gig. Fair play to them hahaha!!!

Owning an instrument and being a musician are not necessarily the same thing.

Learn to play, using covers. That will stretch your ability and if you have it in you, make a decent musician of you. Writing and playing your own music, as a beginner, will not bring out the best of your abilities at such an early stage. Your playing and songs will each be limited to the standard of the other.

And drummers, learn to play your kit in balance, rather than playing each part of the kit to it's loudest!! Dynamics and tone don't exist this way

Once you've all these things coming together, you'll be in a position to then try and get gigs, and see if your efforts are worthy of the masses...

g (cranky old road dog)

maccored

madtheory wrote: »

No, if the band is good enough and has done a decent advertising job, people will come to see them. To make a living from music it has to be sold like any other product. Painters and sculptors know this. It seems to be beyond most musicians though.

So expanding on krd's point, if no one wants to hear you play, take a good hard look at the quality of your product...

the music should be fit to talk, and not the advertising. If people only go to a gig because advertising tells them, then thats not grassroot level support.

madtheory

Does that really need to be said? Not much point in trying to sell a product that isn't any good, unless you've an astronomical marketing budget like Coke or Gucci.

Like I said, it's twofold- the band must be good, and they must market the product.

You can't expect people to magically turn up at gigs/ buy your music if you haven't targeted your demographic, even at "grassroots" level. It pays to plan.

Here's a good example of how to do it:
http://www.mosesavalon.com/nadine.shtml

maccored

unfortauntely I think it does need to be said. There are too many original bands who believe that because they try to write their own material, that people should pay them money regardless.

krd

godfrey wrote: »

A venue booker I know says he regularly gets emails and calls from completely unknown bands looking to play there, and willing to accept as little as €500 for a gig. Fair play to them hahaha!!!

What do you mean?

That venues pay over €500 a gig to unknown bands?

I was under the assumption no one got a bean - even bands with a little exposure. Which may not quite be pay to play but it's not far off it.

A friend who had a band - they weren't that good - who did a mixture of covers and originals - their originals were pretty awful. They approached a pub in the city centre that was virtually empty on Saturday nights offering to play for free. After a few weeks they had a bigger and bigger crowd. The bar started paying them 80 quid - that's 20 quid a head. They asked for more money and were told to **** off which they did. The publican thought the crowd were coming to see him pull pints.

MilanPan!c

not sure why this is in MP, but ...

Anyway, there's almost no money in this or any scene for bands that don't have a booking agent or a (decent) record label.

If you wanna play in decent venues, rent them and expect to take a loss...

If you do this often enough, have decent material, put on a good show and are good at promo, people WILL notice.

But that's just noticing... if you want more you just have to invest more and try harder/be better than your peers.

There's absolutely no secret formula to success other than be good, make friends, work harder than your competition and keep trying.

Yes, some folks have special relationships with business folks, but unless the material is there... it means very little, other than help with exposure...

The main thing IMO, for mainstream success, is having a good vocalist. Followed by good material. In that order. People won't even pretend to give you money or help if your singer isn't special.

One final thing, some of the best scenes in the world are tiny... blaming the size of the scene for anything is a cop-out.

studiorat

I've plenty of friends out there with three or four albums made at this stage who play 3 or 4 nights a week doing original material. By the time you get a van, an engineer/roadie and drive to Ballywhatthe**** it's costing at the very least €500 to €600 before you even pay a musician. Half the time it's the CD's and t-shirts that make the profit. Then you can only visit one place every couple of months even if you are on permanent tour.

It's hardly surprising then that said musicians spend the rest of the week doing little covers gigs for lasting about 3 hours in crappy bars with crappy little PA systems.

How many "up and coming" originals bands can play for more than a hour?

drumdrum

Maybe I'm a bit skeptical on the whole Irish "scene" but sure here goes...


IMHO, Ireland has no scene. Period.
End discussion...


But why do I say this? Well lets look at the Irish "scene" for a second with an open mind to all angles and see what we find.

Firstly, ANY Irish musician(s) who has had any significant success from these shores has done so elsewhere first. U2, the Script....all the bands at their level of success got big first in England or America first. The simple reason is that thats where the big scenes are and in order to make a big enough splash you've got to go to the scene. No point being a big fish in a small pond.

Lets look at Irish radio stations for a second and the **** all support they give local Irish bands. If you actually look at the Top 30/40 for a second you will see that most of the music there is imported from England or America. The Top 40 is where most stations draw their playlists from. Any "support" they give Irish acts is at 3am for an hour at most on a Tuesday morning or some other **** slot where the listenership is low. Nova tend to play older Irish established rock acts such as Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher etc...not that there's anything wrong with that (2 great bands! ) but its not helping the Irish acts of today.


"Well, if the music was good enough, it would be on the charts!"
I've seen this "point" raised loads of times and its simply not true for a few reasons.

One - if you have a great song then good for you, but theres no point in getting radio play of it if its at 11pm where your target audience are not listening to the radio. You may get a few fans (talking in the tens here) if you're lucky, but very rarely is it enough. Peoples attention and memory is less these days and halfway through the next song they've already forgotten who sang the last song.

Two - Record companies spend lots of money on advertising and marketing campaigns that the humble local band can't ever compete with. Online, sure theres a great many resources to take advantage of, but again, its getting harder to muscle in on those with money to spend. Also, its an area that I find most bands don't fully utilise properly. I mean think realistically about it for a second. The band are musicians, not marketeers....which leads me on to my next point...


Bands need to be everything
The bands product (ie, their recording(s)) whether that be in CD or digital download format, is their most important asset. Period. Next to that is live performance followed very closely by image. Depending on the act, image often trumps live performance in importance.
Now, due to the relatively inexpensive cost of professional sounding recording equipment these days, more bands now have the potential to record and put out material at a faster rate. And if the band knows what they are doing, a lot of this material can compete with recordings made in a multimillion dollar studio if they know what they are doing.
People will disagree with this of course, but I've heard some amazing recordings done by people with little more than a €600 soundcard, a laptop and a few mics, which in my opinion sounded like they could of been done in Grouse Lodge!

Home recording is taking business away from the bigger studios as more and more people are thinking along the DIY route. There are also tons of online resources to help them use their gear properly (and incorrectly if you've seen some of the "advice" I've seen!)
Personally, I think that a big studio with a good engineer is invaluable as not only does it generally get you a great sound faster, but it lets you focus on the music and not who-ha experimenting with compressor settings etc. Plus the bigger studios generally have that edge where at the point where its a game of percentages in getting that "polished" sound, they definitely have that last hurdle over home recording. Then again, I've heard amazing stuff done with a lot less. Personally, I have a massive hobby recording my own stuff so theres good points for both sides. But thats another point for a different discussion.

My point is this. With more bands recording their own gear there is more and more music out there both good and bad. This makes it moe difficult for good bands to emerge from the ether either online or otherwise. Theres simply too much out there. And there are alot of good bands also, making it hard for the great ones to be obvious. It just dilutes the online scene so much that most people take it for granted nowadays.

Another point on this, is that with more bands going the DIY route for recording their products, often times the music or the performances can suffer. Musicians are 90% of the time musicians first, engineers second. This makes the production time longer for their record. Ok, they aren't paying for the time persay (save the initial gear cost) but the attitude of "I'll just fix it in the mix" means that sloppy drumming, flat singing etc, can be "fixed" (to some degree) to a modern standard. Often though, these erros get revealed at the live gigs.

Record companies wont look at bands anymore unless they have a product made. The days of "playing gigs, getting spotted, getting signed" are gone the way of the dinosaur. Record companies cant afford that risk. For every ten acts that are signed, one gets their CD released. So most bands have gone down the DIY route for this reason. Its cheaper, on their time and they can control how they sound...(for better or worse, mind...)

So lets recap fora second. Modern bands nowadays not only need to be musicians, but mix/recording engineers (to a certain degree) also. On TOP of this, they also need to be businessmen/women, marketeers, and even know their legal stuff. Thats a tall order for most bands now a days. This on top of constant touring etc takes its toll. Management can help quite a bit especially if the manager is good. But this can also bring problems, which is another issue for another day.


Where I'm going with this...
Irish bands need to be everything these days. Its not enough to just be musicians anymore, especially when other bands are aiming to be everything. Unfortunately, the first casualty of such an approach is often the music, and this isn't necessarily completely the bands fault. Its a problem generated by an industry which demands more from the modern musician than every before, and has become saturated beyond belief with mostly subpar music.
As a result, the Irish scene is generally regarded as "99% ****e" by most radio heads and those who control what gets played. Thats why they get their music from abroad as its safe, proven and less risky for them when selling ad space (which is their revenue). This in turn leads people here to buy this music which only feeds the downward spiral. I understand that the radio stations are a business and have to make money, but its a bit hypocritical and underhand when they sport the "we play Irish music!" banner, and their playlist contains U2 and the Script.

My advice, is that if you're really serious about giving your music a shot....and I mean REALLY serious, then you need to look beyond these shores. This is doubly prominent for niche genres such as non-indie rock (Foo Fighters, QOTSA etc) and metal. Popular genres such as pop and indie rock (vampire weekend etc <- sorry hipsters, they are popular now, but then again you probably dont like them anymore! :rolleyes:) have a better chance of standing out or at least be seen as less risk, but even if you are an indie rock band, you're chances are better off if you focus on other markets outside of Ireland.

Get your band tight live, get your CD made to a professional level either by yourself or hire out a studio. Get some t-shirts made, a good looking dedicated website made (ie, a www.yourbandname.com) and get the social networking site pages made and populated. Think outside the box with promotions, give away free stickers with your bands logo, give away free singles...whatever you can do.

On a smaller scale, while we have something that some may call a "scene", whatever we do have is not nearly enough. Maybe its our Irish nature, but we are too competitive and we don't support our own nearly enough. Inter band relationships are often very competitive. Other bands feck off after their slot at multi-band gigs. The attitude that "everyones **** but me" is rampant. Its something that we do to ourselves, but its something we can get out of by ourselves. It jus takes a change of thought though, which is something I doubt I'll see any day soon.

But for the big picture, with a view of really making it big, we as a nation can't compete. We are a tiny island of a few million whose entire population would be the fanbase of a decent American band. Honestly, how could we compete? The old saying comes to mind...

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

(Sorry for the long post, and thanks if you read it! )

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

not sure why this is in MP, but ...

Anyway, there's almost no money in this or any scene for bands that don't have a booking agent or a (decent) record label.

It's not just having the agent or the record label - marketing really helps though.

I've been at a few of your gigs. And it's not just family and friends going. I bumped into a few of my friends (who aren't even casual gig goers) at one of your gigs who went because they'd seen something on a blog somewhere.


Chris - you're band has a lot going for it. I think though - there is one or two niggling little things hold ye back. And it's not not having the agent/record/company etc. If you could over come these things I think you could become very big very fast.

Your band is head and shoulders above probably nearly all of the competition. But you're not packing them in at Whelans - there's a missing piece in puzzle.

I've been at nearly all your gigs and you've never even said hello.

If you wanna play in decent venues, rent them and expect to take a loss...

Which is pay to play. This actually destroys any scene. Venues get taken over only by people who can afford to pay for the venue. You get guys in well paying jobs and their mediocre hobby bands wrecking the nights. They wonder why people are not turning up. They have all the expensive gear, professional sounding demos - sorry, albums etc.

Then there's the shower with huge family and friends - bring ten cousins and their friends.

More mediocrity. The casual gig goers are put off - because it's very unpleasant to be blasted out of it (the worst bands are always that bit too loud) by bands who are just not that entertaining - who are just the opposite. Who suck.

It's like this - there are some people who can pick up a bashed up guitar with old strings at a party - and within a minute they'll have a crowd gathered around them asking for more -they may not be able to sing or play very well - they just have a thing. There are other people - who will pick up the guitar, and they may be able to play guitar solos for Norwegian death metal records - but they will clear the room faster than you can say flatulence.

A lot of bands - especially the pushy ones - are made up of the kind of people who clear rooms.

I've seen the same thing with DJs at parties - some just clear the fffing room - others have it banging.

If you do this often enough, have decent material, put on a good show and are good at promo, people WILL notice.

But that's just noticing...

No people noticing you do a good show and have good material is the end in itself. And it builds from there, if you're lucky. Outside of having good material and being able to put on a show there is absolutely nothing else to a band.

if you want more you just have to invest more and try harder/be better than your peers.

And it can become a money spending arms race. Whittling the field not down to the most talented entertainers but those in jobs that pay over 40 grand a year and the children of the rich.

And it gets to the point of ridiculousness - and this is the case for a well known Irish indie act (been in the English charts, NME etc) . Their bloody parents paid for the recording or their album and the videos etc (not the major record label it was released on). They play gigs around Europe, they get booked - people come to see them (after all they've been in the NME) But there is nothing really to love about their music, so they don't really sell any. Another well known Irish indie act paid for the entire recording of their album out of their paychecks and it was released on a major UK indie. I'm not going to name them - because I don't want it coming back on me.

It's a joke if it gets to the point where "Oh, mr record company, we've scraped together a 100 grand from our families. Will you hook us up with the production and publicity people and we'll pay for everything and ye can release it".

There's absolutely no secret formula to success other than be good, make friends, work harder than your competition and keep trying.

The secret formula is actually blind luck. I won't give a long explanation. Read the black swan by Nicholas Taleb.

People who work very hard and have talent fail all the time - just through luck.

It's luck if you run into someone who will help you. It's also luck if you hit a few bastards who cause you serious problems. It's good blind luck if you can get a great group of musics together. If you have rich parents.

It's luck if you record something great - but just by chance nearly everyone who hears it is not in a great mood when they do. That it slips through the cracks.

Yes, some folks have special relationships with business folks, but unless the material is there... it means very little, other than help with exposure...

Exposure exposes you to more luck.

The main thing IMO, for mainstream success, is having a good vocalist.

Or one people want to roid. Though she definitely can sing too.

Followed by good material. In that order. People won't even pretend to give you money or help if your singer isn't special.

It kind of goes without saying. If you don't have the songs or the singer - you really don't have a band.

One final thing, some of the best scenes in the world are tiny... blaming the size of the scene for anything is a cop-out.

It's hard to know if "scenes" ever really exist. I know you definitely have them in Techno. I would say there hasn't been a real Irish music "scene" since the 90s. The 80s also had a scene. Pre U2 the "scene" was dominated by horrible Irish show bands - the hits of the day with an agricultural twist.

There is a problem that pay to play gutted the music scene. The venues have to work at fostering people who are entertaining - and keep the room clearers out.

And the same can be said for a lot of the people involved in things like film in Ireland. They're room clearers who've had the money - and sometimes connections to set themselves up. Before the crash - more films were getting made in Ireland than ever before - but fewer films were getting distribution. The room clearers had taken over. Making drek no one wants to see. Destroying the industry for people who maybe have something to say.

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

Exposure exposes you to more luck.

.

Well put .....

There's also the question if no one cares after much exposure, what conclusion can we reasonably come to ?

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

It's not just having the agent or the record label - marketing really helps though.

I've been at a few of your gigs. And it's not just family and friends going. I bumped into a few of my friends (who aren't even casual gig goers) at one of your gigs who went because they'd seen something on a blog somewhere.


Chris - you're band has a lot going for it. I think though - there is one or two niggling little things hold ye back. And it's not not having the agent/record/company etc. If you could over come these things I think you could become very big very fast.

Your band is head and shoulders above probably nearly all of the competition. But you're not packing them in at Whelans - there's a missing piece in puzzle.

I've been at nearly all your gigs and you've never even said hello.


Which is pay to play. This actually destroys any scene. Venues get taken over only by people who can afford to pay for the venue. You get guys in well paying jobs and their mediocre hobby bands wrecking the nights. They wonder why people are not turning up. They have all the expensive gear, professional sounding demos - sorry, albums etc.

Then there's the shower with huge family and friends - bring ten cousins and their friends.

More mediocrity. The casual gig goers are put off - because it's very unpleasant to be blasted out of it (the worst bands are always that bit too loud) by bands who are just not that entertaining - who are just the opposite. Who suck.

It's like this - there are some people who can pick up a bashed up guitar with old strings at a party - and within a minute they'll have a crowd gathered around them asking for more -they may not be able to sing or play very well - they just have a thing. There are other people - who will pick up the guitar, and they may be able to play guitar solos for Norwegian death metal records - but they will clear the room faster than you can say flatulence.

A lot of bands - especially the pushy ones - are made up of the kind of people who clear rooms.

I've seen the same thing with DJs at parties - some just clear the fffing room - others have it banging.



No people noticing you do a good show and have good material is the end in itself. And it builds from there, if you're lucky. Outside of having good material and being able to put on a show there is absolutely nothing else to a band.



And it can become a money spending arms race. Whittling the field not down to the most talented entertainers but those in jobs that pay over 40 grand a year and the children of the rich.

And it gets to the point of ridiculousness - and this is the case for a well known Irish indie act (been in the English charts, NME etc) . Their bloody parents paid for the recording or their album and the videos etc (not the major record label it was released on). They play gigs around Europe, they get booked - people come to see them (after all they've been in the NME) But there is nothing really to love about their music, so they don't really sell any. Another well known Irish indie act paid for the entire recording of their album out of their paychecks and it was released on a major UK indie. I'm not going to name them - because I don't want it coming back on me.

It's a joke if it gets to the point where "Oh, mr record company, we've scraped together a 100 grand from our families. Will you hook us up with the production and publicity people and we'll pay for everything and ye can release it".



The secret formula is actually blind luck. I won't give a long explanation. Read the black swan by Nicholas Taleb.

People who work very hard and have talent fail all the time - just through luck.

It's luck if you run into someone who will help you. It's also luck if you hit a few bastards who cause you serious problems. It's good blind luck if you can get a great group of musics together. If you have rich parents.

It's luck if you record something great - but just by chance nearly everyone who hears it is not in a great mood when they do. That it slips through the cracks.



Exposure exposes you to more luck.





Or one people want to roid. Though she definitely can sing too.



It kind of goes without saying. If you don't have the songs or the singer - you really don't have a band.



It's hard to know if "scenes" ever really exist. I know you definitely have them in Techno. I would say there hasn't been a real Irish music "scene" since the 90s. The 80s also had a scene. Pre U2 the "scene" was dominated by horrible Irish show bands - the hits of the day with an agricultural twist.

There is a problem that pay to play gutted the music scene. The venues have to work at fostering people who are entertaining - and keep the room clearers out.

And the same can be said for a lot of the people involved in things like film in Ireland. They're room clearers who've had the money - and sometimes connections to set themselves up. Before the crash - more films were getting made in Ireland than ever before - but fewer films were getting distribution. The room clearers had taken over. Making drek no one wants to see. Destroying the industry for people who maybe have something to say.

Hey man,

Thanks for all of, I agree with most of it..

One thing: Come up and say hi man... There's almost nothing I'd like to do more than have a nice long chat with you.

Really.

MilanPan!c

@Drumdrum - 100% guaranteed with the "look elsewhere" thing. Almost all of our business stuff is aimed at the UK, and most of the serious enquiries we get are from the UK. The Irish scene does exist, but it's a niche/speciality scene. Hilariously, the Irish festivals are full of bands that sound very different to the Dublin club bands. In other words things like Richter bands are quite popular in venues, but mainstream stuff dominates the festivals. We're quite mainstream and the popular niche players don't really appeal to us and have no interest in us. Put another way, we had a well known DJ tell us he couldn't get behind our single because it sounded too mainstream, for a local radio show. [scratches head]


@KRD One thing I meant to say is this, most of the gigs bands get offered are pretty crap. We have decided we are better off playing in places with decent sound systems, places that allow us to best represent our sound, and this means, essentially, renting venues ourselves.

Its one thing to say pay-to-play is bad for a scene, but unless bands like us have meaningful alternatives it's a meaningless point.

By renting venues we can at least control the environment , the bands we play with and the aproximate date. I've spent ages being both at the mercy of booking agents and renting venues; I'd much rather rent venues and put on our own gigs then deal with venue booking agents for the reasons listed.

I don't like the fact that most bands have to pay to play, but...

Here's a story, one we've all heard, but anyway ... When I was first one the Boston scene my band was v young, two underage for drinking, we booked a gig at a v well known venue and brought a ton of folks, mostly 18+, and were psyched.

After the gig the booking agent said, "your crowd only spent 200 on beer; you can't play here again for 6 months".

No system is perfect.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well put .....

There's also the question if no one cares after much exposure, what conclusion can we reasonably come to ?

I don't think it's easy to reach a conclusion.

There are two things that can happen.

One:

It can be a fluke. The music can be good, the look can be good, everything is good. It simply does not catch. And this happens a lot with things in popular culture. Something just does not catch. And in the past at least, record companies used to realise this - and if they had something good, it might take several launches before it took. A&M had that problem with the Carpenters - it just wouldn't happen - and then suddenly it did.

It's actually the same peculiarity as makes a fluke like Mumford & Sons - I think they're good....but they're not that good. they're riding high in the Pirate Bay top one hundred music torrents (pirate bay only real chart that counts) They are a global phenomenon. They actually sound like they've ripped off Irish indie bands. The guy sounds like he's Irish - he looks like a fat Irish guy.

---

he might be one of the few people in England who was ever into Irish indie and cleverly ripped it off because he knew no one else had ever heard it. Over 24 million that's 000,000 naughts, views on youtube.

Mumford are a black swan.

Two:

I'm not going to name names but. Say the instance of people getting a lot exposure and going nowhere. Lets take a hypothetical act. All the members are from wealthy well connected families. So many people working in the Irish media are there because they were related to people etc.

They get on the radio, they get on the TV, they get written up in print, they get good gigs around town - they have flash gear - they have people buzzing around them - there seems to be a buzz. People even go to the gigs.

There seems to be a buzz. But it's not a real one.

Because the songs or the music is just not there. Not even near there.

This also happens to major label record companies - sometimes they spend an absolute fortune on something that just isn't there.

Now less - because they don't have the money. But there was a time they'd spend ludicrous amounts of money on flops. But they could afford it - one monster record could pull in hundreds of millions.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Hey man,

Thanks for all of, I agree with most of it..

One thing: Come up and say hi man... There's almost nothing I'd like to do more than have a nice long chat with you.

Really.

I get a perverse kick out of you not recognising me. And it's a lot of fun to watch the thing from the outside. Plus I think Rob wants to beat me up - he's sore after me calling him a monster on facebook. Every gig I've been to since that circus freak has been trying to sniff me out. He's come really close too - like that bit in Jurassic park where the T-Rex bends down and looks in the window of the car.

If Rob reads this and gets a little sore - I'll just say that he does actually look quite cool. There's a lot of visual potential there. Because, let's face it - if he was in the circus people would pay to come see him. Rob, not saying you're ugly - you're a sexy beast.

Elaine, has a lot of charisma too. Though I don't think she really knows it - or really knows how to use it. She's also very good looking. Though there have been bad photos or her - and She's also used make up that didn't work well with stage lights. In the flesh she's so good looking it's scary. At least she scares me sh1tless.

We're quite mainstream and the popular niche players don't really appeal to us and have no interest in us. Put another way, we had a well known DJ tell us he couldn't get behind our single because it sounded too mainstream, for a local radio show. [scratches head]

I actually know what he means. And not saying you should sound like Guided By Voices. I think it's a case that ye've played it too safe - even mainstream stuff needs an edginess to it.

I think you've got great songs - in that you can do earworms - but the what you're getting down on record doesn't do them justice. If I think about them and play them back in my head - I can hear great hooks - but it's not working as well as it should be on the recordings.

One thing I meant to say is this, most of the gigs bands get offered are pretty crap. We have decided we are better off playing in places with decent sound systems, places that allow us to best represent our sound, and this means, essentially, renting venues ourselves.

Chris, I have one massive advantage over you. I have been to most of your gigs. And You.......Where you have been performing..In a certain sense you haven't been at any of them.

As for sound systems, it's actually been quite patchy. Sometimes the has been great - some times it hasn't. You might be surprised to know where you sounded better and worse.

And I know it's a bit late to be saying this since your about to do a big bit of recording next month. But what ye should have done - and not for exposure - ye should have played every piss pot you could get a slot in, on the worst sound systems. To get a real feel for what you're doing. The worse the sound system the better. That way you have to work at it to make it sound better. The band could have gotten more into the feel of the songs - figured out how to make them work better. Elaine, could really learn how to tap into the magic. Because sometimes she is magic and sometimes she's not. I think if she'd had to battle against brutal sound systems a few times - really learn how to take control and make it happen all the time. And the same for the rest of the band.

I've been meaning to get in touch - but between one thing and another. If you want a word let me know - I can Skype.

But objectively and honestly - I think you really have something there. Something that hundreds or even thousands of Irish bands do just not have.

godfrey

krd wrote: »

What do you mean?

That venues pay over €500 a gig to unknown bands?

Sorry, I should have explained...
The point was that complete unknown's were expecting to get a €500 guarantee!!

They'd promise 'a great crowd like we get at all our gigs'... And so on...

g

Rockshamrover

KRD for president

You should be writing for a living man. Chris is right, you speak your mind and take no prisoners.

The truth can hurt sometimes, but it can also sweep away the bull ****. You can accept it and move on or ignore it and stand still.

Make that a room for 3

Malice

Some great posts in this thread. Sorry I don't have anything to add. I've agreed with pretty much everything that was written.

flyswatter

Just looking up something there on Wikipedia.

The population of Montreal isn't a whole lot more than Dublin yet it has an infinitely better music scene at the moment and has had for a good while.

Ireland has a strong tradition in pop/rock music but not anymore it seems.

What's the cause for this?

drumdrum

flyswatter wrote: »

Just looking up something there on Wikipedia.

The population of Montreal isn't a whole lot more than Dublin yet it has an infinitely better music scene at the moment and has had for a good while.

Ireland has a strong tradition in pop/rock music but not anymore it seems.

What's the cause for this?

Canada has a much larger population as a whole, so your overall target audience is a lot larger, in countrywide release terms. Hence, there is more money to be made in the grander scheme of things, and more money potential = less risk for the labels. Montreal also happens to be a major city where the opportunities to play and record are, not to mention where record labels have their outposts located too.

Its not that big of a mystery IMO.

Dublin has a much smaller potential countrywide audience, has generally bad attitudes among its younger bands and has feck all opportunities in it. Any opportunities that do arise often are subject to unfair nepotism and "friends of friends" scenarios.

Then again, its not much different where you go I suppose....sure isnt it all about "who you know"?

flyswatter

drumdrum wrote: »

flyswatter wrote: »

Just looking up something there on Wikipedia.

The population of Montreal isn't a whole lot more than Dublin yet it has an infinitely better music scene at the moment and has had for a good while.

Ireland has a strong tradition in pop/rock music but not anymore it seems.

What's the cause for this?

Canada has a much larger population as a whole, so your overall target audience is a lot larger, in countrywide release terms. Hence, there is more money to be made in the grander scheme of things, and more money potential = less risk for the labels. Montreal also happens to be a major city where the opportunities to play and record are, not to mention where record labels have their outposts located too.

Its not that big of a mystery IMO.

Dublin has a much smaller potential countrywide audience, has generally bad attitudes among its younger bands and has feck all opportunities in it. Any opportunities that do arise often are subject to unfair nepotism and "friends of friends" scenarios.

Then again, its not much different where you go I suppose....sure isnt it all about "who you know"?

What are these bad attitudes? I was really into The Immediate, then they split up. Last band from the republic I really liked. Best of luck to Chris also, hopefully will be at a Riot Tapes gig in the future! Liking their stuff so far!

drumdrum

flyswatter wrote: »

What are these bad attitudes?

Ah I just find that particularly with younger, less experienced bands, they tend to be very arrogant and consider most other unsigned bands crap. I get it that it can be competitive, but you get alot further with people in general if you support or at least TRY to support them and each other.

Just grinds my gears when other bands feck off after their set at gigs when others have given them the respect to listen to their set, even if they were amazing or amazingly ****e!


(Must...stay.....POSITIVE.... )

MilanPan!c

flyswatter wrote: »

What are these bad attitudes? I was really into The Immediate, then they split up. Last band from the republic I really liked. Best of luck to Chris also, hopefully will be at a Riot Tapes gig in the future! Liking their stuff so far!

Thanks a lot flyswatter! We're playing 29 July at the Workmans (headlining) ad will debuting a lot of new material and "ideas" so
it'll be a big show for us. Plus there will be lot of "industry" folks there so... If you do come please bring 150 of your closet friends.

seriously though, I'm glad you're liking the stuff! Yay!

Android 666

drumdrum wrote: »

Canada has a much larger population as a whole, so your overall target audience is a lot larger, in countrywide release terms. Hence, there is more money to be made in the grander scheme of things, and more money potential = less risk for the labels. Montreal also happens to be a major city where the opportunities to play and record are, not to mention where record labels have their outposts located too.

Its not that big of a mystery IMO.

Dublin has a much smaller potential countrywide audience, has generally bad attitudes among its younger bands and has feck all opportunities in it. Any opportunities that do arise often are subject to unfair nepotism and "friends of friends" scenarios.

Then again, its not much different where you go I suppose....sure isnt it all about "who you know"?

But the Montreal scene would seems to develop and encourage experimental bands creating ambitious music which Dublin or Ireland wouldn't really do. In the country you have ambitious bands whose only influence seems to be Green Day or Nickleback and you in Dublin you have experimental bands who would seem to baulk at the idea of being in anyway ambitious with the music they create or with how far they'd like to go.

Montreal would be quite insular but it has a thriving arts scene, Dublin's proximity to London has always seemed to rob the city of an arts scene with any real ambition or individualism imo. There's great artists out there but it's never really coalesced into a cohesive scene. A thriving art scene always has a knock on effect in terms of the music created in a city.

Also, all the art kids in Dublin seem to be into sh¡tty electrohouse.

MilanPan!c

Android 666 wrote: »

But the Montreal scene would seems to develop and encourage experimental bands creating ambitious music which Dublin or Ireland wouldn't really do. In the country you have ambitious bands whose only influence seems to be Green Day or Nickleback and you in Dublin you have experimental bands who would seem to baulk at the idea of being in anyway ambitious with the music they create or with how far they'd like to go.

Montreal would be quite insular but it has a thriving arts scene, Dublin's proximity to London has always seemed to rob the city of an arts scene with any real ambition or individualism imo. There's great artists out there but it's never really coalesced into a cohesive scene. A thriving art scene always has a knock on effect in terms of the music created in a city.

Also, all the art kids in Dublin seem to be into sh¡tty electrohouse.

welllllllll....

It's funny innit...

I see that most of the bands the local "scene" supports are either of the indie pop (as in VERRRY "indie" - e.g. Popical Island) or the indie prog variety (Richter Collective, et al).

There are some really commercial SOUNDING bands that DON'T sound like the above, but which get no help from he likes of IMRO... at least a couple... On the other hand a band like Sacred Animals, who I like well enough, are not really commercially viable and yet they get sent to Canadian Music Week on the taxpayers dime.

IMO the bands that get a LOT of the help (and media attention) are bands like ASIWYFA, Adebesi Shank, etc... instrumental proggy bands... they're good and all, but... any chance of these guys ever REALLY breaking into international mainstream radio??? No.

There are exceptions (Heathers leaps to mind), but they aren't really even close to the majority...

DISCLAIMER: That's obv just my opinion, based on my own experience... I like a lot of this stuff; my only point is about the mainstream viability of it and the focus of the scene on this sort of material... these guys deserve a lot of respect for working their buts off and being good musicians.

Rockshamrover

So which comes first, the scene or the bands?

Do the bands not make the scene?

There's an awful lot of talent in Canada, and apart from their own population, they are also sitting right next to the US of A.

One of my favourite Canadian bands, City and Color, wont be playing on your local radio station anytime soon but they/he are pretty impressive and have enough of a following to earn a living.

MilanPan!c

Rockshamrover wrote: »

So which comes first, the scene or the bands?

Do the bands not make the scene?

There's an awful lot of talent in Canada, and apart from their own population, they are also sitting right next to the US of A.

One of my favourite Canadian bands, City and Color, wont be playing on your local radio station anytime soon but they/he are pretty impressive and have enough of a following to earn a living.

Complex dynamic. If a town has a niche label, like Richter, then a town has a lot more bands that match that labels niche, because money slows a band's rate of collapse... So.. In that case the label, sustains some bands, those bands are around longer and become bigger players in the scene.

Scenes are after all a bunch of overlapping micro-scenes....

Another wildcard is things like gov funding. If the gov ONLY funded country music the scene would look quite different.

flyswatter

Rockshamrover wrote: »

So which comes first, the scene or the bands?

Do the bands not make the scene?

There's an awful lot of talent in Canada, and apart from their own population, they are also sitting right next to the US of A.

One of my favourite Canadian bands, City and Color, wont be playing on your local radio station anytime soon but they/he are pretty impressive and have enough of a following to earn a living.

Can't the same be argued for Ireland in that it lies next to the UK? I don't see why Ireland can't have a better music scene.

MilanPan!c

flyswatter wrote: »

Can't the same be argued for Ireland in that it lies next to the UK? I don't see why Ireland can't have a better music scene.

Welllll.... Americans and Brits are quite different and the relationship between candians and the Irish is also different. Is it analagous? I don't know.

Rockshamrover

flyswatter wrote: »

Can't the same be argued for Ireland in that it lies next to the UK? I don't see why Ireland can't have a better music scene.

We did have, or Dublin had, a scene back in the 1980s. The Liffey Beat it was called. I don't know if any of the bands that were a part of that scene made any major inroads.

I think it's just a numbers thing, we can't sustain a successful scene at home and the cream of the crop will move away weakening the scene.

It would be great though

flyswatter

Rockshamrover wrote: »

We did have, or Dublin had, a scene back in the 1980s. The Liffey Beat it was called. I don't know if any of the bands that were a part of that scene made any major inroads.

I think it's just a numbers thing, we can't sustain a successful scene at home and the cream of the crop will move away weakening the scene.

It would be great though

Does any kind of scene not need a few successful bands that are remembered in time?

I'd just like a few more of them to come along.

I don't think it's a numbers thing, must be an underlying issue that needs to be sorted.

dasdog

Has there ever been any really good or original Irish Metal, Electro, HipHop, Reggae, Classical etc let alone there being a scene? Jazz (Louis Stewart), Soul (Van), Blues/Rock (Rory Gallagher & Gary Moore) and those four (Lizzy too) have done their thing. Enya/Louis Walsh pop music/Mid Atlantic accent The Script and Eurovision winners have gotten "famous" but I doubt anyone wants to go down that road. The Chieftans, Dubliners (do The Pogues count?) played music which was unique internationally and at least honest. I doubt there is need to promote if there is not much worth promoting. Riot Tapes are good all the same but so were Fatima Mansions. It's like trying to raise above a parapet instead of really being honest.

SeanHurley

I think MilanPan!c hit the nail on the head. "Scenes" are dictated by indie labels working in the area. Would the Seattle scene have existed but for Subpop? the Portland scene if Kill Rock Stars weren't there? The Washington DC hardcore scene but for Dischord records?

MilanPan!c

dasdog wrote: »

Has there ever been any really good or original Irish Metal, Electro, HipHop, Reggae, Classical etc let alone there being a scene? Jazz (Louis Stewart), Soul (Van), Blues/Rock (Rory Gallagher & Gary Moore) and those four (Lizzy too) have done their thing. Enya/Louis Walsh pop music/Mid Atlantic accent The Script and Eurovision winners have gotten "famous" but I doubt anyone wants to go down that road. The Chieftans, Dubliners (do The Pogues count?) played music which was unique internationally and at least honest. I doubt there is need to promote if there is not much worth promoting. Riot Tapes are good all the same but so were Fatima Mansions. It's like trying to raise above a parapet instead of really being honest.

I don't disagree with this actually, in principal, but I would say that bands like The Script are actually a great example of what I think the Irish industry SHOULD be supporting. Bands that are commercial and can make money and feed that money back into the industry.

I don't actually *like* their music, but what's better for the Irish music industry, successful commercial bands or niche stuff like ASIWYFA... who I do kind of like... I know it seems kinda crazy to "vote" against my taste, but I think that if the music industry acted more like e.g. the software industry, it would have MORE money and clout which it could use to help "artistes".

Personally, my project isn't trying to be an indie band, we're trying to be a launching board for our singer, as I think she's a once-in-a-lifetime kind of find... so we're aiming at more of a pop approach... where the unifying element is the vocals... very commercial attempt, but understanding that we're all hugely passionate about songs and music AND the business.

I think, even discounting us, that the Irish "scene" could greatly benefit from some labels trying to be commercial, instead of niche... what you'll notice is that most of the commercial stuff is signed by labels outside of Ireland and then re-imported back in (e.g. The Script (UK), Two Door Cinema Club (FR), Royseven (GER/US)). If Ireland wants to be more than an incubator it needs a few VERY commercial labels, with government backing, to compete against foreign labels. That "Script money" could be in Ireland, not the UK, etc.

IMO of course

splitrmx

dasdog wrote: »

Has there ever been any really good or original Irish Metal, Electro, HipHop, Reggae, Classical etc let alone there being a scene?

My Bloody Valentine.

Malice

dasdog wrote: »

any really good or original Irish Metal

A band being "good" is subjective so assuming you mean "internationally-recognised" the likes of Cruachan, Mael Mórdha and Primordial spring to mind immediately and I'm sure there are a few more.

krd

drumdrum wrote: »

Just grinds my gears when other bands feck off after their set at gigs when others have given them the respect to listen to their set, even if they were amazing or amazingly ****e!

They do it deliberately to give the finger. It's just cunnty behaviour.

One night I was at a singer songwriter night. And this girl had just finished up and the next was on. Anyway, the girl gets up and very loudly announces - over the singing of the girl who had just come on, that she was off to see such and such, and did anyone want to come with her. She deserves a solid punch in the face.

Whenever you see a band making an ostentatious show of leaving early, they're doing it deliberately. They're the same little pricks who'll pull all the other dirty tricks.

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

They do it deliberately to give the finger. It's just cunnty behaviour.

One night I was at a singer songwriter night. And this girl had just finished up and the next was on. Anyway, the girl gets up and very loudly announces - over the singing of the girl who had just come on, that she was off to see such and such, and did anyone want to come with her. She deserves a solid punch in the face.

Whenever you see a band making an ostentatious show of leaving early, they're doing it deliberately. They're the same little pricks who'll pull all the other dirty tricks.

yes and no... I mean, as far as the leaving goes... we played a show where the headliner treated us like dirt and was so awful they cleared the room... there's a lot of mediocre I'll put up with for the band, but if another band is just awful, well, I revert back to "listener mode" and head out for a pint...

I've never, on the other hand, tried to deliberately sabotage another band... ever... prolly cause I'm too just too stupid to think of a good plan

I wouldn't be surprised though... I've played gigs in five countries at this point and a LOT of gigs in the US/UK and never EVER did someone try to steal gear from me/my band until I played gigs in Ireland... happened twice in 10 gigs here... do NOT get that at all.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

yes and no... I mean, as far as the leaving goes... we played a show where the headliner treated us like dirt and was so awful they cleared the room... there's a lot of mediocre I'll put up with for the band, but if another band is just awful, well, I revert back to "listener mode" and head out for a pint...

There's literally a handbook of dirty tricks Irish bands pull on each other. At one point they were called Geldof's dirty tricks TM. Supposedly because Bob Geldof was particularly bad for it back in the 70s.

Probably one of the most common dirty tricks. A band invites you to support them (but they're not doing this out of friendship or a favour - they just want you to bring your friends to their gig - a common piece of "advice" you'll see to get your band going) Where the twist is, you turn up and they deliberately drag their sound check out, to make sure you won't have any time to do yours. They also treat you like **** with the hope of unnerving you and making you play badly. Then they push you on early before there's anyone in the room. If they have a friendly soundman - they'll get them to screw your sound up while you're playing.

Then there is a whole host of other dirty tricks. From sabotaging your equipment - spilling drinks down your amp, knocking your instruments out of tune. Trying to distract you or make you nervous.

The upside of all this - if you can battle through and get used to the dirty tricks, it makes it very difficult to throw you off.

I've never, on the other hand, tried to deliberately sabotage another band... ever... prolly cause I'm too just too stupid to think of a good plan

There are two types of enemy: those you can't help making, and those you can. It doesn't pay to make enemies unnecessarily. The greasy little bsatardos playing the dirty tricks think they're being clever - but they're not. It's a case of making enemies unnecessarily. It's funny, they invite you to bring your friends, then they treat you like ****. You're going to tell your friends and the bad blood just spreads.

There are hundreds of dirty tricks. You've probably had them played on you many times without you noticing. There so so so many sneaky tricks.

I wouldn't be surprised though... I've played gigs in five countries at this point and a LOT of gigs in the US/UK and never EVER did someone try to steal gear from me/my band until I played gigs in Ireland... happened twice in 10 gigs here... do NOT get that at all.

Gear stealing here is rampant. It's probably just is Ireland. A lot of the people here are horrible and the music scene attracts some of the worst. And it does come out in their music and that's a reason I believe many of them have little or no success. They can't get anyone to a gig unless they're a cousin or they've tricked them.

Make a list of everyone who has screwed you over. You don't have to go stabbing them in the back, just make sure not to do anything to help them. And if you do feel like stabbing them in the back, they're fair game. Might teach them a lesson.

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

There's literally a handbook of dirty tricks Irish bands pull on each other. At one point they were called Geldof's dirty tricks TM. Supposedly because Bob Geldof was particularly bad for it back in the 70s.

Probably one of the most common dirty tricks. A band invites you to support them (but they're not doing this out of friendship or a favour - they just want you to bring your friends to their gig - a common piece of "advice" you'll see to get your band going) Where the twist is, you turn up and they deliberately drag their sound check out, to make sure you won't have any time to do yours. They also treat you like **** with the hope of unnerving you and making you play badly. Then they push you on early before there's anyone in the room. If they have a friendly soundman - they'll get them to screw your sound up while you're playing.

Then there is a whole host of other dirty tricks. From sabotaging your equipment - spilling drinks down your amp, knocking your instruments out of tune. Trying to distract you or make you nervous.

The upside of all this - if you can battle through and get used to the dirty tricks, it makes it very difficult to throw you off.



There are two types of enemy: those you can't help making, and those you can. It doesn't pay to make enemies unnecessarily. The greasy little bsatardos playing the dirty tricks think they're being clever - but they're not. It's a case of making enemies unnecessarily. It's funny, they invite you to bring your friends, then they treat you like ****. You're going to tell your friends and the bad blood just spreads.

There are hundreds of dirty tricks. You've probably had them played on you many times without you noticing. There so so so many sneaky tricks.



Gear stealing here is rampant. It's probably just is Ireland. A lot of the people here are horrible and the music scene attracts some of the worst. And it does come out in their music and that's a reason I believe many of them have little or no success. They can't get anyone to a gig unless they're a cousin or they've tricked them.

Make a list of everyone who has screwed you over. You don't have to go stabbing them in the back, just make sure not to do anything to help them. And if you do feel like stabbing them in the back, they're fair game. Might teach them a lesson.

It's funny, I often browse this forum on my phone, and it's hard to see who the posts are by, but every time I see one of yours I know, immediately. Ha!

One of the bands that tried to steal our gear is actually good friends with (their crap is produced by as a favour) one of Ireland's musical celebrities... I was VERY tempted to tell him (who I sometimes talk to on Twitter) about this guys behaviour, but figured, I'm the outsider here... don't rock the boat... probably wise considering the rest of your post...

I don't know if being a jerk makes your music any worse, but it certainly makes it harder once you get bigger than a local band.

oh and btw: I feel (and maybe this is again, me being an idiot) that holding grudges really only hurts you... people act the the way they do for all sorts of reasons... you can really miss out on some cool opportunities in this biz if you hold grudges.. it's more about gathering info so you can make better and better decisions over time... IMO of course.

flyswatter

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I don't disagree with this actually, in principal, but I would say that bands like The Script are actually a great example of what I think the Irish industry SHOULD be supporting. Bands that are commercial and can make money and feed that money back into the industry.

I don't actually *like* their music, but what's better for the Irish music industry, successful commercial bands or niche stuff like ASIWYFA... who I do kind of like... I know it seems kinda crazy to "vote" against my taste, but I think that if the music industry acted more like e.g. the software industry, it would have MORE money and clout which it could use to help "artistes".

Personally, my project isn't trying to be an indie band, we're trying to be a launching board for our singer, as I think she's a once-in-a-lifetime kind of find... so we're aiming at more of a pop approach... where the unifying element is the vocals... very commercial attempt, but understanding that we're all hugely passionate about songs and music AND the business.

I think, even discounting us, that the Irish "scene" could greatly benefit from some labels trying to be commercial, instead of niche... what you'll notice is that most of the commercial stuff is signed by labels outside of Ireland and then re-imported back in (e.g. The Script (UK), Two Door Cinema Club (FR), Royseven (GER/US)). If Ireland wants to be more than an incubator it needs a few VERY commercial labels, with government backing, to compete against foreign labels. That "Script money" could be in Ireland, not the UK, etc.

IMO of course

Did I read that right? You are trying to be a launching board for the singer?

So what happens to you and the rest of the band if she goes on to a solo career?

MilanPan!c

flyswatter wrote: »

Did I read that right? You are trying to be a launching board for the singer?

So what happens to you and the rest of the band if she goes on to a solo career?

What happens to any band whe there singer leaves?

That dynamic is more like a normal band. Lots of bands have singers that leave... We're hoping to avoid that... We basically are approaching the music as a pop thing (maybe a better way to say what I said before) but the group is much more like the band dynamic.

In other words, we write and produce more like a pop thing, but then recreate that as a band... Complex and maybe a bit unique, but... There you go...