Music Scene In Ireland

flyswatter

MilanPan!c wrote: »

What happens to any band whe there singer leaves?

That dynamic is more like a normal band. Lots of bands have singers that leave... We're hoping to avoid that... We basically are approaching the music as a pop thing (maybe a better way to say what I said before) but the group is much more like the band dynamic.

In other words, we write and produce more like a pop thing, but then recreate that as a band... Complex and maybe a bit unique, but... There you go...

Ah, I thought you meant something along the lines of this is our singer and we're just her backing band until she becomes a massive solo star!

MilanPan!c

flyswatter wrote: »

Ah, I thought you meant something along the lines of this is our singer and we're just her backing band until she becomes a massive solo star!

I'm stupid, but even I am not *that* stupid.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

It's funny, I often browse this forum on my phone, and it's hard to see who the posts are by, but every time I see one of yours I know, immediately. Ha!

I have style. ... What can I say.

One of the bands that tried to steal our gear is actually good friends with (their crap is produced by as a favour) one of Ireland's musical celebrities... I was VERY tempted to tell him (who I sometimes talk to on Twitter) about this guys behaviour, but figured, I'm the outsider here... don't rock the boat... probably wise considering the rest of your post...

You're better off to keep your mouth well shut. He's probably going around telling a reverse of the story to get a pre-emptive strike in.

Dirty trick number eleventy whatever: Lies and falsehoods. People spreading stories to get you into trouble.

I don't know if being a jerk makes your music any worse, but it certainly makes it harder once you get bigger than a local band.

It can seriously stop you from progressing from a small local band. Being an asshole may or may not catch up with you. There's no golden rule says it will or does.

I think people who screw around may screw themselves more often than they realise. Say for a completely hypothetical situation. A small band have an experience with a soundman where he's a real asshole. The small band gets bigger - who are they not going to call?

oh and btw: I feel (and maybe this is again, me being an idiot) that holding grudges really only hurts you... people act the the way they do for all sorts of reasons... you can really miss out on some cool opportunities in this biz if you hold grudges.. it's more about gathering info so you can make better and better decisions over time... IMO of course.

You really have to watch people. Not so much be paranoid - just watch. It's funny who will screw you and why.

flyswatter

krd wrote: »

MilanPan!c wrote: »

It's funny, I often browse this forum on my phone, and it's hard to see who the posts are by, but every time I see one of yours I know, immediately. Ha!

I have style. ... What can I say.

One of the bands that tried to steal our gear is actually good friends with (their crap is produced by as a favour) one of Ireland's musical celebrities... I was VERY tempted to tell him (who I sometimes talk to on Twitter) about this guys behaviour, but figured, I'm the outsider here... don't rock the boat... probably wise considering the rest of your post...

You're better off to keep your mouth well shut. He's probably going around telling a reverse of the story to get a pre-emptive strike in.

Dirty trick number eleventy whatever: Lies and falsehoods. People spreading stories to get you into trouble.

I don't know if being a jerk makes your music any worse, but it certainly makes it harder once you get bigger than a local band.

It can seriously stop you from progressing from a small local band. Being an asshole may or may not catch up with you. There's no golden rule says it will or does.

I think people who screw around may screw themselves more often than they realise. Say for a completely hypothetical situation. A small band have an experience with a soundman where he's a real asshole. The small band gets bigger - who are they not going to call?

oh and btw: I feel (and maybe this is again, me being an idiot) that holding grudges really only hurts you... people act the the way they do for all sorts of reasons... you can really miss out on some cool opportunities in this biz if you hold grudges.. it's more about gathering info so you can make better and better decisions over time... IMO of course.

You really have to watch people. Not so much be paranoid - just watch. It's funny who will screw you and why.

Christ, is this mainly the Dublin scene?

cerebis

krd wrote: »

They do it deliberately to give the finger. It's just cunnty behaviour.

One night I was at a singer songwriter night. And this girl had just finished up and the next was on. Anyway, the girl gets up and very loudly announces - over the singing of the girl who had just come on, that she was off to see such and such, and did anyone want to come with her. She deserves a solid punch in the face.

Whenever you see a band making an ostentatious show of leaving early, they're doing it deliberately. They're the same little pricks who'll pull all the other dirty tricks.

don't really agree with this..most of the time when we are supporting someone in Dublin (usually on a weeknight), we stay for as long as we can and then we gotta get back in the car and head home to Louth or Meath etc to get up for work the next day...I'd stay listening all night if i could

whiterob81

krd wrote: »

Probably one of the most common dirty tricks. A band invites you to support them (but they're not doing this out of friendship or a favour - they just want you to bring your friends to their gig - a common piece of "advice" you'll see to get your band going) Where the twist is, you turn up and they deliberately drag their sound check out, to make sure you won't have any time to do yours. They also treat you like **** with the hope of unnerving you and making you play badly. Then they push you on early before there's anyone in the room. If they have a friendly soundman - they'll get them to screw your sound up while you're playing.

.

A bunch of mates of mine supported Lupine Howl in Whelans a few years ago and they said this was exactly how it went. The fact that most people reading this post will now have to google Lupine Howl shows how well it worked for them.

madtheory

Same old story- that's just lack of business acumen. Use the tummy test to decide whether the other party is trustworthy or not, or lay it all out in a written agreement before hand. It's also called professionalism. "Ya man, let's do a gig together man" does not constitute an agreement.

whiterob81

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I don't disagree with this actually, in principal, but I would say that bands like The Script are actually a great example of what I think the Irish industry SHOULD be supporting. Bands that are commercial and can make money and feed that money back into the industry.

I don't actually *like* their music, but what's better for the Irish music industry, successful commercial bands or niche stuff like ASIWYFA... who I do kind of like... I know it seems kinda crazy to "vote" against my taste, but I think that if the music industry acted more like e.g. the software industry, it would have MORE money and clout which it could use to help "artistes".

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. I don't see how supporting a band you don't like will actually help a band that you do. I know the theory of a rising tide lifting all boats etc. but if a label has success with a band like the Script, they're probably going to pump a lot of money they make from that into the next band that sounds most like the script.

The seattle scene was established by Sub Pop signing bands like Mudhoney and Nirvana that were out of step with the mainstream at the time, not because they signed Heart.

It's true that bands like ASIWYFA and Adebisi Shank may never be hugely commercially successful but I do think the music they're creating is more interesting and exciting than what most american and UK indie bands are producing at the moment. I do agree with what a lot of people have said in this thread about Dublin, in the past, being full of bands too up their own hole and satisfied with playing to 10 of their friends in whelans once a month to create anything truly worthwhile. In the past I would have been the first to complain about the quality of local bands. I've bought enough badly produced albums and been to enough terrible gigs over the years. But I do think that's been changing a lot over the last while. It's been a wierd sensation over the last while seeing bands like Bats and being able to say "These guys are great." without having to add the disclaimer "For an Irish band".

I actually think one of the problems with the Irish music scene at the moment is that magazines like Hot Press support what they see as being very commercial sounding bands but a lot of them are just very generic sounding rock bands. So when you're reading 9 star reviews of very mediocre bands, it's easy for the reader to become jaded and it makes it harder for genuinely decent bands to get through the cracks.

Also, and I know this is going to be very unpopular here, but I don't see why the Government should give over any money to record labels. I definitely think give money to schools for music programmes, put money in to rehearsal rooms and make it so that learning music isn't just the preserve of people who are lucky enough to afford it. but i don't agree with handing tax money over to record labels

MilanPan!c

whiterob81 wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with this at all. I don't see how supporting a band you don't like will actually help a band that you do. I know the theory of a rising tide lifting all boats etc. but if a label has success with a band like the Script, they're probably going to pump a lot of money they make from that into the next band that sounds most like the script.

The seattle scene was established by Sub Pop signing bands like Mudhoney and Nirvana that were out of step with the mainstream at the time, not because they signed Heart.

It's true that bands like ASIWYFA and Adebisi Shank may never be hugely commercially successful but I do think the music they're creating is more interesting and exciting than what most american and UK indie bands are producing at the moment. I do agree with what a lot of people have said in this thread about Dublin, in the past, being full of bands too up their own hole and satisfied with playing to 10 of their friends in whelans once a month to create anything truly worthwhile. In the past I would have been the first to complain about the quality of local bands. I've bought enough badly produced albums and been to enough terrible gigs over the years. But I do think that's been changing a lot over the last while. It's been a wierd sensation over the last while seeing bands like Bats and being able to say "These guys are great." without having to add the disclaimer "For an Irish band".

I actually think one of the problems with the Irish music scene at the moment is that magazines like Hot Press support what they see as being very commercial sounding bands but a lot of them are just very generic sounding rock bands. So when you're reading 9 star reviews of very mediocre bands, it's easy for the reader to become jaded and it makes it harder for genuinely decent bands to get through the cracks.

Also, and I know this is going to be very unpopular here, but I don't see why the Government should give over any money to record labels. I definitely think give money to schools for music programmes, put money in to rehearsal rooms and make it so that learning music isn't just the preserve of people who are lucky enough to afford it. but i don't agree with handing tax money over to record labels

Basically, I wasn't hugely clear, so let me rectify that.

I meant government money should be used to support commercial stuff, which would result in the government having more money, some of which it could use o support more arty stuff.

Right now the government supports mostly arty stuff, which offers no return on investment, and in turn that means that government funded bodies like IMRO are begging artists for financial support.

That's just creating a money pit ...

As far as government support of labels, that could be either through low interest loans, or a million other ways... it doesn't have to be through direct investment, but it should be wit the attitude that the labels try and return that investment in money or time... create expectations of success...

Re: ASIWYFA... I think that niche bands are grand; I love mostly niche bands, but my love needs to be separate from what I want for the Irish music scene, which is for it to be something more than an incubator that other countries reap the rewards from.

Hope that's more clear.

Android 666

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Basically, I wasn't hugely clear, so let me rectify that.

I meant government money should be used to support commercial stuff, which would result in the government having more money, some of which it could use o support more arty stuff.

Being more commercial sounding is not a guarantee of commercial success.

If it can be a commercial hit why would it need support from the government?

The role of government in arts funding should be more altruistic and like whiterob said support of music programmes and such would be a better way to spend the money.

I'd prefer arts funding going towards something that might not necessarily be made otherwise rather than something that is made with the intention of racking back in the moolah. It's not a perfect system and a lot of wilfully obtuse can be produced in the process but I'd rather the Irish government was funding up and coming playwrights then Riverdance.

DamagedTrax

Android 666 wrote: »

Being more commercial sounding is not a guarantee of commercial success.

If it can be a commercial hit why would it need support from the government?

The role of government in arts funding should be more altruistic and like whiterob said support of music programmes and such would be a better way to spend the money.

I'd prefer arts funding going towards something that might not necessarily be made otherwise rather than something that is made with the intention of racking back in the moolah. It's not a perfect system and a lot of wilfully obtuse can be produced in the process but I'd rather the Irish government was funding up and coming playwrights then Riverdance.

i agree. i dont think there is currently any reason for government funding on commercial ventures. funding should be kept for non-commercial entities such as theatre groups and schools music programs. its hard enough for them to get funding as it is without stretching that funding even thinner on the ground.

but i do agree the commercial industry here needs help. if you want to run a band/studio/label to a commercial level then i think there should be some sort of start-up package in place geared towards the industry by a body like the IDA or similiar. currently if you go to them they look at you like you have some sort of mental illness for even considering a start-up business let alone one in the creative arts industry.. and yes, ive been there and gotten laughed at

whiterob81

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Basically, I wasn't hugely clear, so let me rectify that.

I meant government money should be used to support commercial stuff, which would result in the government having more money, some of which it could use o support more arty stuff.

Right now the government supports mostly arty stuff, which offers no return on investment, and in turn that means that government funded bodies like IMRO are begging artists for financial support.

That's just creating a money pit ...

As far as government support of labels, that could be either through low interest loans, or a million other ways... it doesn't have to be through direct investment, but it should be wit the attitude that the labels try and return that investment in money or time... create expectations of success...

Re: ASIWYFA... I think that niche bands are grand; I love mostly niche bands, but my love needs to be separate from what I want for the Irish music scene, which is for it to be something more than an incubator that other countries reap the rewards from.

Hope that's more clear.

that makes more sense. I definitely agree with the part about the government loaning the money and expecting a return as opposed to just handing over a huge chunk of cash.

But then isn't that what banks are(were?) for. And I know this is going to sound incredibly harsh but wouldn't a bank be more effective at ensuring a return on investment than a Government department?

I suppose what makes me slightly cynical about the idea is that it's something I've heard put out there by really awful bands trying to prolong their career. For example, I saw a documentary recently about the government funding the music scene and Humanzi were on saying "Our work is as important to society as doctor's so I think the Government should give us 5,000 to record our album in New York". This is near enough verbatim.

Let's deconstuct this statement:

"Our work is as important to society as doctor's" - No, it's not. There's a vital difference in that doctors are needed and wanted. I'm sorry but if your album only sells 500 copies after your band has been given support slots with every major band that plays dublin and your album is the subject of a massive marketing campaign and you're featured regularly in the NME, maybe it's time to rethink a few things. If the product isn't good enough it won't sell and maybe that's not the government's fault. Maybe they should look closer to home

"I think the Government should give us 5,000" - They did, it's called Social Welfare

"to record our album in New York" - Right, so you think the government should show faith in the Irish Music scene by handing tax money over to you but you clearly don't have enough faith in it yourself to invest in an Irish Producer.

Another thing that strikes me, and this may sound pretty cynical, is that seeing as how the most commercially successful Irish act doesn't actually pay tax here, it might not seem worth the government's while to invest in helping a band achieve huge success

jtsuited

whiterob81 wrote: »

"Our work is as important to society as doctor's"

Was that really said?

If anything like that is ever said it's a sign of delusion of gargantuan proportions.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

Was that really said?

If anything like that is ever said it's a sign of delusion of gargantuan proportions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IE&hl=en-GB&v=EoMAgpJABK0

A sentiment echoed by the Arts council as well. Makes them look very idiotic…

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Basically, I wasn't hugely clear, so let me rectify that.

I meant government money should be used to support commercial stuff, which would result in the government having more money, some of which it could use o support more arty stuff.

Right now the government supports mostly arty stuff, which offers no return on investment, and in turn that means that government funded bodies like IMRO are begging artists for financial support.

That's just creating a money pit ...

As far as government support of labels, that could be either through low interest loans, or a million other ways... it doesn't have to be through direct investment, but it should be wit the attitude that the labels try and return that investment in money or time... create expectations of success...

Re: ASIWYFA... I think that niche bands are grand; I love mostly niche bands, but my love needs to be separate from what I want for the Irish music scene, which is for it to be something more than an incubator that other countries reap the rewards from.

Hope that's more clear.

A bit like a 'Record Company' ....

Android 666

- Oh god, the pain is too much…

- Doctor, can't you see this man is dying!?!! Give him 10 tracks of Humanzi stat!!!

- No, no, please, just let me die…

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IE&hl=en-GB&v=EoMAgpJABK0

A sentiment echoed by the Arts council as well. Makes them look very idiotic…

Jesus FUKKING Christ....I cannot get over the level of nonsensical bullsh1t being spouted in that video.

No wonder the 'scene' in Ireland is fcuked if it's populated by the detestable gimps in that video.

Unbelievable.

flyswatter

If Humanzi only managed to sell 500 albums, how did they manage to get that kind of exposure and high level support gigs in the first place?

Connections I'm guessing?

jtsuited

I remember being around that 'scene' when them and Mainline were breaking through. There was a torrent of bullsh1t hype flooding the city.

krd

jtsuited wrote: »

Jesus FUKKING Christ....I cannot get over the level of nonsensical bullsh1t being spouted in that video.

No wonder the 'scene' in Ireland is fcuked if it's populated by the detestable gimps in that video.

Unbelievable.

If you didn't know otherwise - the video would look like very dry, very clever comedy.

MilanPan!c

I think, at this point in my "career"/"life"/"whatever" that a government can barely function as a bank, much less an arbiter of what "art" is "valuable" to an "industry".

I think, as a bank, at least, there's a bit of a concept of how to value potential return on a loan... assets, track record, etc. This all sounds very cynical, but I think it's much worse to have tax money thrown at artists, in an attempt to make them commercially successful, when their art is very niche, by almost all accounts.

I l.o.v.e niche stuff... most of the stuff I listen to is not in any way commercially successful, but... I don't think my tax dollars should support it. That's just my opinion.

Oh and to whomever said, sounding commercial != commercial success.. agreed, but what's a better bet at succeeding commercially: sounding commercial or making music that's niche...?

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

If you didn't know otherwise - the video would look like very dry, very clever comedy.

We recently interacted with someone in that video and let's just say it adds a whole other level of hilarity when you know some of them...

MilanPan!c

whiterob81 wrote: »

Another thing that strikes me, and this may sound pretty cynical, is that seeing as how the most commercially successful Irish act doesn't actually pay tax here, it might not seem worth the government's while to invest in helping a band achieve huge success

I think you'd need to change the system to protect from exactly this sort of thing... that being said, part of this is about an Irish label or labels, not just about the artists... as businesses in Ireland have discovered, a chunk of something is better than nought... right now, when Royseven makes money it goes to a US company, when the Script make money it goes to the UK, etc., etc.

And, if there was a label here that could actually compete artists would have an incentive to stay here (maybe not enough of an incentive, but more than they have now...)

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

We recently interacted with someone in that video and let's just say it adds a whole other level of hilarity when you know some of them...

I've actually "interacted" with someone in that video too.

I bought some second hand equipment off them.

And They Were An Absolute Prick. A smarmy rude condescending prick.


And they did prove my theory: if you're a prick, it comes across in your music. If you suck, so does your music.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I think you'd need to change the system to protect from exactly this sort of thing... that being said, part of this is about an Irish label or labels, not just about the artists... as businesses in Ireland have discovered, a chunk of something is better than nought... right now, when Royseven makes money it goes to a US company, when the Script make money it goes to the UK, etc., etc.

I think something really interesting is about to happen.

HMV have announced a new business strategy. They're getting out of selling CD's and into buying more music venues - getting into stuff like that.

I think it could be a really great thing for music. Since the business of HMV is selling music and not bolloxes selling beer.

drumdrum

This post may seem a little harsh, and I'm sure it could rub people up the wrong way, but here I go....


Ireland doesnt have the potential in its borders to let any band "make it" so to peak. This is true to popular-genre bands and even more so for niche bands. We just dont have a population or a market size thats big enough to get a band famous enough.

The most you may get is on the levels of ASIWYFA and Villagers and their ilk where you are big here, but nowhere else. Not to knock these bands, I think that they are both great! But unless you focus your efforts elsewhere (as these bands do) you are doomed to be a big fish in a small pond, making less than the guy at your gig who works in an office from 9-5.

If you arent big here then fine. But even if you are, dont bitch and whine about the music industry if you've not given yourself a decent shot at a bigger market first. Could be that your music just isnt "in" at the moment, or that you simply arent good enough on a large scale. There are tons of factors any of which could be a reason you never know of as to why you don't "make it".
I personally, get sick and tired of hearing bands with a semi-success here in Ireland who bitch and moan about the scene when they aren't even willing to give their own music a shot where their market really is. Music is not something that is held in by geographical borders. Its is universal, as too are its markets and unfortunately for us, due to socio-geographic reasons, the markets just aren't in Ireland (exception being Irish Trad music...maybe...)

If you can get overseas, then great. Get over to your markets and do us Irish proud! If you can't, then thats life, deal with the fact that your semi-success state WILL die out as you get older and that you're not destined to be a rock star. You certainly wont be the first or the last person to realise this or that this happens to. And its not always fair....people have lives and with lives come mortgages, jobs, women/men, babies etc etc... all stuff that tie people down which can prove problematic for truly ambitious bands. And in the grand scheme of things, you can't knock people for wanting lives outside of an industry where there is a TINY chance of getting any return in it. People need and deserve to be happy in any band, and if that means a job and kids then who are you to deny them this. It may mean parting ways, but you're better off deciding this now before you take a serious punt overseas for all parties involved.



On a different note, artists like ASIWYFA and Villagers are annomalies in the Irish scene. Out of the thousands of bands around Ireland, these guys are the "one in a million" guys, and not just out of sheer luck, though that does have a part (read on! ).

Hard work and practice, in combination with luck, have gotten these guys to where they are today, which in the grander scheme of things is not that far when you think about it, but further than most bands will get. And fair play to them! "Luck" is a funny business as its the word we attach to the "xfactor" or whatever you want to call it thats missing in the band with great players, but is there in other bands with lesser members. Its not something to be knocked, its something to be grateful for as nearly everything in the music biz is "who you know", instead of "what you know". A bands "luck" could be that the bassist is related to a record executive or an established producer or something. Could be any number of things.

Sure that band "Fox Avenue"... one of the band members or their manager ir something is a DJ on a major Irish radio station. I think its Spin 103.8 or something...I'm not 100% sure which one. Hes gotten them support act slots in the O2 as well as air time on Irish radio stations. Its completely "who you know"...
Obviously, this is a major asset for any band to have and they would be STUPID (as would most bands!) to ignore this asset in lieu of trying to be taken with fellow-musicians-credibility as a "serious band". Its easy to knock em...I sure as hell aint a fan, but I dont begrduge them to taking an easier way to getting noticed.
Should it be this way? Maybe, maybe not, but it is and to think otherwise is naive...

This is getting too long for even me to bear, and I can feel the beer-sleeps setting in, so I'll rap this up. Bands here bickering about the Irish scene have to realise that the scene left Ireland years ago to fields more lucrative. Simple as that. If you are content with being a big fish in a tiny pond (and some people are...nothing wrong with that!) then fine, but you cant moan about it. If you gave it a shot, and it didnt happen for you, then great, but I doubt you would be vocalising your opinions on boards.ie for all to see. Its the ones that can't or won't take the punt that are the most vocal ones. I understand that its a very tough thing to do to just "up-and-go" from (potentially) a job and loved ones, but its sacrifice that has to be taken if you REALLY intend to make it.

Most of us won't in our lives. Some of us will and will return with or tail between our legs, but with their heads held high with a sense of pride of having given it a "proper go". The RARE ones of these will actually make it somewhat big.....but these people are so rare that they come from these shores once every few decades.

Still...after all this ranting etc.....its definitely a dream worth chasing!

PaulBrewer

If it's just 'who you know' then all you'd have to do is get to know 'them' and you're sucessful ... yes ?

PaulBrewer

Lads have ye been robbing from this ?

http://10k.aneventapart.com/Uploads/262/#

dasdog

Sex and drugs and rock and roll
Are very good indeed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvyrAEXT-E

MilanPan!c

I def feel an artist in Ireland today needs to be focusing 90% on the UK/US/etc., but... I also am part of the Irish scene so wish it'd be better for those coming after me...

PaulBrewer

All of that is incidental ...

You just need to be good and lucky - and one begets the other.
What anyone else on 'the scene' is doing is immaterial.

But it all starts with being good.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

have to agree - being good is everything

its pretty obvious that if you put it out , stick with it , and if you are good ,
cream rises to the top .

if you put it out and you dont get any where - you have to face the facts .

personally i am prepared to accept those odds, and whatever happens enjoy the journey cos that is a large part of it all.

one last thing is that if it is going to happen ,
it will happen when fate says so - not you
it only happens when you are ready , and fate is ready.

the main thing though if you really want it - is to commit 100% to it in what ever way possible and NEVER GIVE UP .

fate likes commitment.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

All of that is incidental ...

You just need to be good and lucky - and one begets the other.
What anyone else on 'the scene' is doing is immaterial.

But it all starts with being good.

Well, and I don't really have an answer for this, but at different times and different places there have been "scenes" capable of sustaining musicians. There hasn't been a music scene capable of sustaining Irish rock bands for years. If you had a bit of a name you could tour around the country and make enough money to live on. People were able to go professional long before they had a record deal. Now even with a record deal, they might not give you a bean to live on.

If you go back all the way to the showband period, it was possible to make a very good living and not be that good at all.

Back in the 90s, guys I knew, formed a band - and without playing a gig anywhere or playing together. Whelan's paid them an advance for a residency. I think a Wednesday night over a few months. I can't remember the amount of money, but it was enough to buy equipment. They really couldn't play. They did this freeform jazz/funk that was atrocious. There was some "connections" element in all this. They disbanded shortly afterwards because they hadn't had any "success". They were awful.

There was another band in the 90s, I can't remember their name, they were friends of a friend. They were actually making a living gigging. But they were a very small band, and it was noisy punk indie. But there were enough venues paying them a few quid here and there for them to live on. Then they signed a 360 with an English label. And the label actually stopped them from playing gigs. The label gave them no money to live on. I saw them play at secret gig - they were paranoid about getting caught. They might never have been huge. But had they not signed the 360 they would have been able to keep going. Funnily, I think they're "connections" help get them that disastrous deal.


Scenes really get going when you have a few good bands around and people get into the habit of going to see these bands. It's like the showband days. Pubs and dance halls weren't paying bands out the goodness of their hearts. They knew if they didn't, they wouldn't have a crowd.

I don't know what the answer is - all I know is the country is completely fffk'd on so many levels the least of anyone's worries is a vibrant local music scene.


I've heard something recently - about England. Record companies are signing people BUT they're only letting 1 out of ten of the bands they've signed make records. Does anyone know if this is true?

MilanPan!c

@krd it's not just the uk, a huge number of labels don't release a lot of the records the label makes.

There's a well-funded, but essentially unknown Irish label that I know for a fact has recorded many records, maybe two dozen, an only two or three have come out.

One of the big "tricks" discussed earlier in this thread is recording a killer record before you talk to labels seriosuly. One of the many reasons a lot of musicians benefit from this is that is increases the odds that their record will see the light of day.

Sad but true.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

All of that is incidental ...

You just need to be good and lucky - and one begets the other.
What anyone else on 'the scene' is doing is immaterial.

But it all starts with being good.

This is good *general* advice, but ask Jedward how they made it. Or, say, "Collective Soul". Sometimes, luck is all you need, being good is almost never enough for success. Being good can open doors, but... So many things can close them.... Hard work generates opportunities and creates an artist that can take advantage of opportunities, but without good luck, even hard work can be meaningless.

I've told you guys the story about the guy whose career was ended by pickles, right? No amount of talent or hardwork can stop shi like that from happening, and no lack of talent stopped Jedward.

krd

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I've told you guys the story about the guy whose career was ended by pickles, right? No amount of talent or hardwork can stop shi like that from happening, and no lack of talent stopped Jedward.

No, what's the pickles story.


But Jedward aren't really musicians. They're television performers.

PaulBrewer

Define 'Making it'

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I think you'd need to change the system to protect from exactly this sort of thing... that being said, part of this is about an Irish label or labels, not just about the artists... as businesses in Ireland have discovered, a chunk of something is better than nought... right now, when Royseven makes money it goes to a US company, when the Script make money it goes to the UK, etc., etc.

I think something really interesting is about to happen.

HMV have announced a new business strategy. They're getting out of selling CD's and into buying more music venues - getting into stuff like that.

I think it could be a really great thing for music. Since the business of HMV is selling music and not bolloxes selling beer.

HMVs business is surviving - they've 2 year stay of execution.

If that involves selling beer you can be sure they will.


Royseven, I predict, will not be money makers !

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

PaulBrewer wrote: »

All of that is incidental ...

You just need to be good and lucky - and one begets the other.
What anyone else on 'the scene' is doing is immaterial.


I've heard something recently - about England. Record companies are signing people BUT they're only letting 1 out of ten of the bands they've signed make records. Does anyone know if this is true?

Nothing particularly new there - the development deal has been a mainstay of the industry for years.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Define 'Making it'

Where your work pays off and you can make a living from your music.

To do something with your life you enjoy?


Just looking at this blog of 90s Irish music - was listening to some of the tracks. Some of these bands were really awful. On every level. They even make some of the worst stuff around now look like genius.

http://boxsetgo.blogspot.com/2008/01/alternative-ireland-reason-god-invented_26.html

Some of those bands never deserved anything like the attention they got. And I do remember seeing tiny little bands that were around that were far more interesting, better musicians etc. listening to some of the guitar and drums, everything actually on some of those 90s records - they sound brutal. How did these people ever get any attention?

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Royseven, I predict, will not be money makers !

Their sound is 5 years ago, if they had been around when The Killers were doing the business they might have had a chance.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

HMVs business is surviving - they've 2 year stay of execution.

If that involves selling beer you can be sure they will.

Or like Mccullough Pigott sell clothes.

I think HMV will think of something. There's always been money in music

Royseven, I predict, will not be money makers !

I think your prediction could come true - but there's no accounting for taste.

Nothing particularly new there - the development deal has been a mainstay of the industry for years.

Is it full production or just demos? Are bands locked up? Do they get a bean out of it? How much are they spending on these things?

I have heard of bands and albums being locked up for years - even with the constant promise of a release. And then being dropped. I think Emmett Tinley/the prayer boat could have had a much better career if they'd just released his records instead of just sitting on them. Maybe he's doing okay.


What is the pickle story?

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Royseven, I predict, will not be money makers !

Actually, I think you're wrong - I didn't know We Should Be Lovers was their song. That's not actually a bad song. Hints of MGMT and The Killers - but for what it is I think it's a really good song.

It's a good song.

150,000 views on Youtube - that is not a bad figure at all.

They've got an Ex-Brillant Trees guitar player.

And a bunch of Pulse recording graduates.

MilanPan!c

The Pickle Story

When I first moved to Boston I worked at a three story Tower Records... I worked on the rock floor.... I am originally from a pretty small town in the deep south and moved to Boston to be a musician... the staff were mostly musicians and artists and what not; it was a pretty, scenester-y kinda place... at any rate, one of the first guys I met was a rocker, don't ask me his name, this was a LONG time ago... he was all piercings and leather jacket and greasy hair... I shouldn't have been unnerved by kinda druggy types, but I was and this guy was a total druggy spaceshot... or so I thought... after a few months I was at a party (trying to hook up with this girl I worked with) and I mentioned he creeped me out...

that's when I heard the pickle story.

This guy was in the biggest band in Boston about a year earlier, signed to a major label... had been sent on little tiny tours around New England and literally weeks away from a major support slot, national tour, yada yada... had a video shot, record recorded... the whole package...

However, as many musicians do, he wasn't making a cent off it yet and was still working a night job in a restaurant... one night he went to the stock room to get a giant glass jar of pickles from a top shelf... somehow the jar fell... or he fell or the shelf broke and the jar landed, at full force on his head... and gave him permanent brain damage.

End of career.

****ing pickles.

****.

So a year later, he shelved CDs at tower records....

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

Actually, I think you're wrong - I didn't know We Should Be Lovers was their song. That's not actually a bad song. Hints of MGMT and The Killers - but for what it is I think it's a really good song.

It's a good song.

150,000 views on Youtube - that is not a bad figure at all.

They've got an Ex-Brillant Trees guitar player.

And a bunch of Pulse recording graduates.

Being signed on a sub of WB and selling a bunch of record in Germany and Europe is a LOT further than most bands get... I don't know if they'll be HUGE, but... they're a lot further down the road than 99.9999999999999999% of bands get.

PaulBrewer

You make money after you pay back what you've spent. There's the problem.

RadioHead owed a fortune after The Bends touring / selling was complete, for example.

I knew a couple of the RS guys from the factory days, lovely chaps. I think the singer is distinctive too.

However, making money is an entirely different proposition.

You don't get any from YouTube... I know country and Irish artists with half a million views.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You make money after you pay back what you've spent. There's the problem.

RadioHead owed a fortune after The Bends touring / selling was complete, for example.

I knew a couple of the RS guys from the factory days, lovely chaps. I think the singer is distinctive too.

However, making money is an entirely different proposition.

You don't get any from YouTube... I know country and Irish artists with half a million views.

No doubt, but that's more an issue for all labels, band, artists, countries...

In other words that's unrelated to the Irish scene... If they do make money, it won't be for an Irish label... that's my larger point.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You make money after you pay back what you've spent. There's the problem.

Very hard to pay back a loan, when the interest rate is on average 1,000%

RadioHead owed a fortune after The Bends touring / selling was complete, for example.

And Radiohead after their tour returned to their cold bedsits and the dole.

Just searching for sales figures on The Bends. One figure I found is 8 million soundscan. That's 8 million sales in the US alone. I know technically Radiohead could still be in debt to their record company after sales like that. But there's no way in hell the record company sat them down after the tour and said sorry lads, we haven't broken even - better look next time, hurry up to the dole office before it closes.

You have to be wary of when some people say they're broke. Technically they may owe the record company or whoever a lot of money. But they may have a nice house, nice car, money in the bank.

The published accounts of Riverdance always show the company just about breaking even. This of course is bull****.

I knew a couple of the RS guys from the factory days, lovely chaps. I think the singer is distinctive too.

Shouldn't all singers be distinctive? It's an open secret - mediocre sounding vocalists do not sell. They'll even get beaten by distinctive sounding singers who can't sing in tune.

And look at all the people who come on these boards saying the lyrics etc are not important. As if the star attraction on their productions is the snare sound, or the two note indie rock solo.

What could be paying off for Royseven in the end of the day might not be their musical talent, might not be any magical gift, but an attitude to what they're doing.

However, making money is an entirely different proposition.

Obviously, if you spend more money than you make, you will be broke. It's funny what makes money and what doesn't. And for some people, they don't make money at the height of their flame but afterwards. You have American rappers who try to get into to films - because a little bad acting will pay off massively more than their records - the records; which after the record company takes their cut, there is SFA left.

In fact you may never make a penny from your music. Even if you reach the billboard top 10. You may literally make all your money by not singing or playing a note. Collecting appearance fees for turning up at nightclubs, supper market opening etc. "DJ'ing" . Coolio - remember Coolio Gangstas Paradise. He was in Dublin recently - at a night club. He was paid just to be at the night club. He hasn't made a record in a very long time. It's most likely not worth his while. Maybe he's in contract where he can't sing or play a note. But he can turn up places.

You don't get any from YouTube... I know country and Irish artists with half a million views.

You don't get any money from Youtube. But that's not the thing. You have to monetise what you get from it. If you're getting a few hundred thousand hits on Youtube, it means a few hundred thousand people have sought your thing out. Not everyone has the same audience. A country and Irish act with a million hits are not going to get a gig at Glastonbury - but it means there is an audience out there for them. And it's a case of getting to that audience.

Brendan Shine still tours - he's not doing it in the vain hope of one of his records taking off like O.K. Computer. I bet he makes far more money than NMEs flavour of the month. I don't know Brendan Shine. But I have know Irish trad musicians less famous than even the great Brendan. And they make very decent music touring the US. If you can play jigs and reels, and polkas - even if you're completely unknown. With a few phone calls you can book a US tour, that will last a few weeks, where you will be paid very well to play very small gigs - all your expenses will be paid and you will come away with money in your pocket. If you know how to do that.



I was talking to someone a while back who was involved in running a very small, unknown Irish trad revue, that tours Europe. They said they couldn't even figure out how or why they were doing so well. Every time they went back there were more people.

PaulBrewer

I do know Brendan Shine .

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I do know Brendan Shine .

Yeah.........thought you would.

Bet you knew the great Joe Dolan too. And joking aside. People like Joe knew how to make money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqfeqYjqms8