Passive resistance against the Nazis

Morlar

I am not seeing any evidence for the effectiveness of passive resistance during or after WW2 . Neither in the context of Germany/German occuppied, or in the context of Soviet Russia/Soviet occuppied countries (which would be the example capable of studying).

I think the assertion that they would have ran out of steam in 20 yrs does not seem based on anything. I also think this is veering into the 'alternative history' zone.

It is possible that it could have lasted just 20 yrs, but in a scenario where Germany won the 2nd world war, or, came to an agreement with either America/Britain or came to an agreement with Russia (or both) to somehow hold on to the territories in the East then I can see no evidence of the new reich lasting just 20 yrs before dissolving through passive resistance.

I think comparisons to the British Empire and India are not valid in Europe.

The Soviet empire took a lot more than 2 decades to fall and even then it was economic, absolutely not in any way shape or form as a result of passive resistance. That included 50 yrs of Cold War from the West and internal resistance crushed.

I think ideologically the nsdap were not in it for the short haul. The economic principles behind it delivered the majority of pre-war German citizens a quality of life they were not used to. I could see them exporting that ideology forcefully to west europe given peacetime (in the above scenario). I could also see them eventually give west europe more self governance, even a form of independence in those conditions but that would be heavily conditional and a different thihng to the reich crumbling.

Within 20 yrs passive resisters would have sons of conscription age, indoctrinated from primary school in a climate of total media & cultural control, with an ideology villified by victory (of some sort) suddenly it would be a lot more complicated to passively resist what would in that instance be a proven victorious ideology.

Given peace their economy could well have blossomed, industry and resources were possibly enough to sustain the new map. Wartime led research & technical innovation could also have solidified their position. They were on the verge of guided missiles, reliable jet fighters and so on. With a couple of decades of breathing room they could well have become too much militarily even for the combined allied/soviet forces. It is also not unimaginable that in the above scenario the west would have gone through some kind of normalisation of relations and eventually shifted to a more anti-communist tone. So it's not a foregone conclusion that they would have lasted just 20 yrs.

Morlar

I am still curious about what passive resistance in this instance actually amounts to ?

Dannyboy83

Morlar wrote: »

I am still curious about what passive resistance in this instance actually amounts to ?

See: The White Rose protest

Morlar

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

See: The White Rose protest

I am aware of the White Rose movement. In fact I was in the Scholl/White Rose Museum about a month ago. I was told that the senior curator there was originally the youngest member of the white rose to escape captivity, (though he was not present the day I arrived). Here are some pics I took there in case anyone is interested;

This is a pic of the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität they were students at :



the public space monument and the tribute flowers :




Fact is they sent anonymous letters, went a stage further and attempted to distribute leaflets directly and were caught, had a lightning trial and were guillotined for their troubles.

I read, or heard, (can't remember which) that there was a study done which came to the conclusion that 90% of the letters they anonymously sent were immediately handed into the Gestapo. The recipients simply thought this was a trap or a test and that they had better cover themselves by reporting them. Perhaps they thought it was not a trap but that they would be traced back to them eventually.

When I was asking for examples of passive resistance I meant meaningful, effective examples, which could possibly have an effect in a way that could lead to the downfall of the respective (Soviet/Nsdap) regimes. The White rose movement make for a nice movie, and is a very sad story but in reality achieved nothing.

Dannyboy83

Thanks for the photos.

Fact is they sent anonymous letters, went a stage further and attempted to distribute leaflets directly and were caught, had a lightning trial and were guillotined for their troubles.

Yes, this is passive resistance.
Simply it was in the face of an authoritarian regime.
Which quite clearly proves that the idea that passive resistance would have averted Nazi dominance is illogical.


If you're looking for successful campaigns of Passive Resistance, then Ghandi is of course the best known example.
Martin Luther King is another good choice, but he was fighting for civil rights, not for the human right to exist!

The Belfast Boycott is an example of one closer to home, but arguably was more damaging in the long run, as it helped created a border.

I'm not sure if the actions of Romas Kalanta could be considered passive. While he didn't attack the enemy, he did violently kill himself.

Morlar

I think pretty much everyone agrees there are no examples of passive resistance which could have had a meaningful effect on either regime.

I really don't think comparisons to India/British empire are applicable here.

Mass public protests would not have been permitted to happen, organisers would be in gulags/camps or shot outright, people who tried to attend in support would also be in serious trouble.

The whole notion seems logistically impossible. If you went to a printers to print a poster to advertise a protest - you would be arrested. If you printed it yourself and hung up posters on the street - you'd be arrested. If you did it at night they'd be gone in the morning. If you tried it the following night you'd find them waiting for you etc,.

marcsignal

riffmongous wrote: »

How does passive resistance work against a group that is trying to exterminate you?

Fair question. There were many acts of what may be called 'passive resistance' used against the nazis. Some could also be interpreted as commoner-garden 'sabotague' I guess. One example that comes to mind, is when Polish women prisoners, working on V2s, urinated onto/into sensitive guidance components, causing the missile to fail on launch, and on occasion, the consequent explosion killing the launch crews.

Another example, is the main firm contracted to supply concrete for the Atlantic Wall. I saw a documentary a while ago about this. Resistors high up in the firm ensured that the concrete was mixed in such a way that made it sub standard in many cases, and made it so difficult to work with, that it slowed down construction considerably.

I'm sure there are many similar examples, but whether these acts alone could have defeated the Nazis ?

No, I don't believe so at all. It's just not feasible.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Good post.

+1

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's worth noting that Guensche & Linge among others are on record as stating that Goering and a few others on the cabinet were opposed to the invasion of Poland as they felt Germany was insufficiently armed.

Quite true, the book 'The Devils Deciples' by Anthony Read is a 'must study' in this regard. Very well written, and goes into Goerings efforts in great detail.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Hitler certainly wanted the war.

If he could have achieved his lebensraum by getting Poland to roll over, my guess was that he was banking that a swift defeat of the Soviet union would soon follow. Without any western intervention, this could have been achived, imo. WW2 would have been done in 12 months, had it been confined to these parameters.

Whatever might have happened to the population of these occupied territories, we may never have known anything about, had Hitler won. However, I think it's safe to say, any resistance would have been met with brutal force, as Nodin has already said.

In short, I believe he was certainly prepared to use force to get what he wanted, but would have prefered to achieve his goals using threats, intimidation, etc. Who wouldn't ?

anymore

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

But that wasn't until early 1943, several years after the invasion of Poland in September 1939. So it's not really a valid point to use the concept of 'total war' as indicative that Germany wanted war when talking about the outbreak of the second world war.

Well then we may as well look to Hitler's words to d.ivine his intentions;
( Of course, of course, it could be said his preference was to swallow up Nations whole without the necessity of going to war, I suppose we could say that if we wanted to be pedantic.)
Lebensraum

[W]ithout consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
examples of the British and French empires.

In an era when the earth is gradually being divided up among states, some of which embrace almost entire continents, we cannot speak of a world power in connection with a formation whose political mother country is limited to the absurd area of five hundred thousand square kilometers.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 2

jonniebgood1

marcsignal wrote: »

Fair question. There were many acts of what may be called 'passive resistance' used against the nazis. Some could also be interpreted as commoner-garden 'sabotague' I guess. One example that comes to mind, is when Polish women prisoners, working on V2s, urinated onto/into sensitive guidance components, causing the missile to fail on launch, and on occasion, the consequent explosion killing the launch crews.

Another example, is the main firm contracted to supply concrete for the Atlantic Wall. I saw a documentary a while ago about this. Resistors high up in the firm ensured that the concrete was mixed in such a way that made it sub standard in many cases, and made it so difficult to work with, that it slowed down construction considerably.

I'm sure there are many similar examples, but whether these acts alone could have defeated the Nazis ?

The Danes move to deny the exportation of their jewish community to death camps was the most known passive resistance of WWII that I can think of. One factor that I can never fully understand is just how passive some of the victims of WWII actually were. When people are stripped of their clothes and lined up in front of open pits in front of a machine gun they might have little chance of escaping but I guess there are reasons for this to.

I think also in relation to the OP that the notion of passive resistence against blitzkreig is a bit fanciful.

marcsignal

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The Danes move to deny the exportation of their jewish community to death camps was the most known passive resistance of WWII that I can think of.

excellent example, and a quite spectacular move on the part of the Danes. It's also interesting to note that it would have never happened had it not been for a discreet tip off from the German commander in Denmark (his name escapes me atm). He made a remark something to the effect of, and this is an attempt to quote him...

'if only there were a bridge over which this issue could be resolved'

.. meaning 'if somehow they (the jews) could get to Sweden, by some means, this would save me a lot of work'

citizen_p

passive resistance only works against an ethically correct "opressor" or "enemy".

it works in the modern age in westren countries as, if anyone was to be assaulted or beaten by the police it would be frontpage news and possibly on a worldwide scale if a death was to occur. In Egypt passive resisitance worked, where as in Lybia and syria, which has much more draconian laws (no groups of 3 or more allowed to congregate etc...), where passive resistance failed, open coflict was needed.

passive resistance will not work in any contry where they use real bullets to stop riots...