Gay Pride - Embarrassing or Empowering?

Zillah

efb wrote: »

Is 'Straight acting' something gay people should aspire to?

You're missing the point. Partly due to the camp theatrics of pride, people have gotten it into their heads that that is how gay people behave, and if you do otherwise you are "straight acting". Apparently I am supposed to prance around looking fabulous or I'm just imitating straight people.

I dislike it because I'm being misrepresented.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they should be stopped, and I think other events are a great idea (gay film/theatre festival etc), but I don't like how it warped people's perceptions.

voz es wrote: »

Straight people are treated as second class citizens in many other areas of life. A man's legal right to decide the right to life of his unborn child and the likelyhood of looseing custody if a relationship breaks up.

Not because they're straight though. It's not like they would let that man make the decision if it turned out he was gay.

silverspoon

Just on the issue of 'pride': not sure why people are objecting to its being called 'gay pride' (as opposed to straight pride blah blah disingenuous rabble) since I've always taken it to mean, as opposed to being ashamed of one's sexuality. That gay people shouldn't be ashamed of themselves, or hide their true sexuality away, but be openly gay and comfortable with that, be proud to stand up for the rights and equality that gay people deserve.

I do think that dressing up outlandishly and being over the top possibly doesn't further the agenda - I just think that a bigot or homophobe, far from being able to see past sexuality and identify with the people behind that one aspect of their genetic make-up, it would further alienate them and therefore make it less likely to be able to identify with the needs and rights of gay people. I mean, if I were marching for women's equality, I wouldn't dress up in an apron, or dress up in a bikini or anything that would distract from my message or give the exact kind of people against whom I am struggling any excuse take me less seriously. That said, I know that that's a separate issue, and if some people do want to dress up etc etc then who's to stop them? I just question how that furthers their cause.

efb

voz es wrote: »

Straight people are treated as second class citizens in many other areas of life. A man's legal right to decide the right to life of his unborn child and the likelyhood of looseing custody if a relationship breaks up.

But let them march if they want to march, democratic right and I hope they enjoy the day out.

There you are talking about fathers' rights moreso than straight persons rights. And I do believe fathers rights are being denied in this country and would support their claim to them

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

voz es wrote: »

Straight people are treated as second class citizens in many other areas of life. A man's legal right to decide the right to life of his unborn child and the likelyhood of looseing custody if a relationship breaks up.

But let them march if they want to march, democratic right and I hope they enjoy the day out.

Unless the mother of the child is always a lesbian, that's not a dscrimiation based on sexual orientation and your argument falls apart.

rochey84

voz es wrote: »

Straight people are treated as second class citizens in many other areas of life. A man's legal right to decide the right to life of his unborn child and the likelyhood of looseing custody if a relationship breaks up.

But let them march if they want to march, democratic right and I hope they enjoy the day out.

What you're talking about there is totally different, the "gay agenda" as it being known as is to achieve the equal status in terms of Marriage and Adoption. A father's right to custody of a child should a relationship break up is also a gay issue should we ever get the right to adopt a child!

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

What you're talking about there is totally different, the "gay agenda" as it being known as is to achieve the equal status in terms of Marriage and Adoption. A father's right to custody of a child should a relationship break up is also a gay issue should we ever get the right to adopt a child!

rochey84 - the Gay Pride parade acheives nothing in this respect. What does achieve something?

Contributing by political lobbying using groups such as GLEN and Marriage Equality and listening to those who disagree with you without hurling ad-homine ms and taking seriously any objections that others may have and thinking constructively about how to resolve these objections.

The second any LGBT campaigner chucks in the "homophobe" card instead of listening and contributing valid argument it is akin to shooting onesself in the foot with a shotgun as far as I see it.

MitchKoobski

ellloisa wrote: »

y durante la siesta del bebé, la casa Ropa interior Calvin Klein necesita recogió y la ropa se acumula alta. Al final del día, "Jane" se siente como una sirvienta, un chofer, una cocinera y una nodriza. Nada se asemeja a una mujer dinámica y Calzoncillos Calvin Klein sexy está en la descripción de su trabajo diario. Por lo tanto, es un excelente ejemplo de por qué las mujeres compran lencería. Cuando "Jane" se desliza sobre el traje de seda, ella es una mujer, en primer lugar.

From Google Translate:

and during the baby's nap, the house needs to Calvin Klein underwear and clothes picked accumulates high. At the end of the day, "Jane" feels like a maid, a chauffeur, a cook and a nurse. Nothing resembles a dynamic woman and sexy Calvin Klein Underwear is a description of their daily work. Therefore, it is an excellent example of why women buy lingerie. When "Jane" is slipped over the silk dress, she is a woman first.

A woman first indeed....

Chairman Meow

There are many ways to earn respect. Mincing down the street on a float shaped like a giant penis while wearing ill fitting hotpants and blaring Kylie tunes is not one of them.

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

rochey84 - the Gay Pride parade acheives nothing in this respect. What does achieve something?

Contributing by political lobbying using groups such as GLEN and Marriage Equality and listening to those who disagree with you without hurling ad-homine ms and taking seriously any objections that others may have and thinking constructively about how to resolve these objections.

The second any LGBT campaigner chucks in the "homophobe" card instead of listening and contributing valid argument it is akin to shooting onesself in the foot with a shotgun as far as I see it.

I'm inferring a hostile tone there where I'm sure there isn't but I'll respond accordingly.

I responding to the post made about straight people being treated as 2nd class citizens, what does gay pride achieve you ask? I agree it has very little political influence if any, but as a previous poster suggested it is about empowering the people who do feel like they have to hide, its about showing those that are scared, lonely, suicidal directly because of their sexuality, that there is light at the end of that tunnell (I should know I was one of these people) it is about celebrating those that up until 1993 had to hide in dark ally's, parks, and couldn't be themselves and take pride in themselves for fear of the Law, to be PROUD of the achievements so far!

Any other questions?

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

I'm inferring a hostile tone there where I'm sure there isn't but I'll respond accordingly.

I responding to the post made about straight people being treated as 2nd class citizens, what does gay pride achieve you ask? I agree it has very little political influence if any, but as a previous poster suggested it is about empowering the people who do feel like they have to hide, its about showing those that are scared, lonely, suicidal directly because of their sexuality, that there is light at the end of that tunnell (I should know I was one of these people) it is about celebrating those that up until 1993 had to hide in dark ally's, parks, and couldn't be themselves and take pride in themselves for fear of the Law, to be PROUD of the achievements so far!

Any other questions?

So would you suggest that the Government and the city should facilitate marches for all demographics that feel the need to be empowered and demonstrate this publically? Or are there limits, and if so why are there limits?

I don't see why one should be proud of a sexual orientation. It's always confused me as to the idea that people can derive an identity from sexuality.

Ultimately I don't mind as I can just ignore the Pride Week events but there's a lot about it that I'm not sure of.

I don't know how you got a hostile tone out of that post by the by.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Chairman Meow wrote: »

There are many ways to earn respect. Mincing down the street on a float shaped like a giant penis while wearing ill fitting hotpants and blaring Kylie tunes is not one of them.

Earns mine. Rather a bit of free expression than some self-important twat wearing a pinstripe suit driving a BMW.

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

So would you suggest that the Government and the city should facilitate marches for all demographics that feel the need to be empowered and demonstrate this publically? Or are there limits, and if so why are there limits?

I don't see why one should be proud of a sexual orientation. It's always confused me as to the idea that people can derive an identity from sexuality.

Ultimately I don't mind as I can just ignore the Pride Week events but there's a lot about it that I'm not sure of.

I don't know how you got a hostile tone out of that post by the by.

I'm sorry for inferring the hostile tone, however can I ask where you have proof the the government or city don't allow other parades/protests/ marches in the city/country? Every demograph as you state it is fully entitled to this I believe provided they organise it and pay for it themselves. Again I ask that you read my previous post, its not a pride of sexual orientation as such its pride in the steps toward equality that we have acheived in less than 20 years, its pride in the fact that people can truly and fully be themselves. I can understand how the language of my previous post may have led you the belief that we are proud of our sexuality.

Do you understand the concept of pride now?

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

I'm sorry for inferring the hostile tone, however can I ask where you have proof the the government or city don't allow other parades/protests/ marches in the city/country? Every demograph as you state it is fully entitled to this I believe provided they organise it and pay for it themselves. Again I ask that you read my previous post, its not a pride of sexual orientation as such its pride in the steps toward equality that we have acheived in less than 20 years, its pride in the fact that people can truly and fully be themselves. I can understand how the language of my previous post may have led you the belief that we are proud of our sexuality.

Do you understand the concept of pride now?

I don't say that they don't. I'm asking if lines should be drawn or should every group be able to march wherever and whenever they want?

I don't think that is entitled, there has to be some merit in it in order to close streets and so on. By the by, the Pride Parade is funded by Dublin City Council / The Government I'm fairly sure.

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

I don't say that they don't. I'm asking if lines should be drawn or should every group be able to march wherever and whenever they want?

I don't think that is entitled, there has to be some merit in it in order to close streets and so on. By the by, the Pride Parade is funded by Dublin City Council / The Government I'm fairly sure.

But every group can march whenever and whereever they want provided they sumbit the neccessary paperwork in time for the required date. If the government do fund Pride (I couldn't be sure of that) I'm sure the organisers of Pride would be happier with that money going to achieve the equal status. Also on side note, Pride is no longer JUST about LGBT community although it is primarily it is a festival that is open to ANYONE, hence it being known as Pride and not "Gay Pride"

I accept all your argument against Pride however I will ask you to show me another group of Irish Citizens that are refused the right to a family with the partner they love? or another group of Irish citizen that in the last 18years have only achieved a legitimate stance in the eyes of the law, or a group that had to bring the Irish Government to court in Europe to achieve that legitimacy?

philologos

I accept all your argument against Pride however I will ask you to show me another group of Irish Citizens that are refused the right to a family with the partner they love? or another group of Irish citizen that in the last 18years have only achieved a legitimate stance in the eyes of the law, or a group that had to bring the Irish Government to court in Europe to achieve that legitimacy?

That s nothing to do with the Pride parade really. It has to do with how the State deals with family units. I don't believe that it is a "right" to adopt. It is a right to be considered for adoption.

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

That s nothing to do with the Pride parade really. It has to do with how the State deals with family units. I don't believe that it is a "right" to adopt. It is a right to be considered for adoption.

Fair point on the adoption thing I had assumed that it would be inferred. But The Parade and Pride is to celebrate how far we've come to reward those that have fought for those rights and to remind others that we aren't done yet.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

Fair point on the adoption thing I had assumed that it would be inferred. But The Parade and Pride is to celebrate how far we've come to reward those that have fought for those rights and to remind others that we aren't done yet.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I do, but I think we could do with a more subtle reminder really :pac:

Wompa1

rochey84 wrote: »

I accept all your argument against Pride however I will ask you to show me another group of Irish Citizens that are refused the right to a family with the partner they love? or another group of Irish citizen that in the last 18years have only achieved a legitimate stance in the eyes of the law, or a group that had to bring the Irish Government to court in Europe to achieve that legitimacy?

polygamysts...as far as I know they haven't actually achieved any legitimate stance as of yet. Should they though?

Never really thought about it before. Hmmm...

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

I do, but I think we could do with a more subtle reminder really :pac:

Maybe but you have to remember that as stated previously it is not just reminder but a celebration, people party as a way of celebrating hence the big party. If Dublin won the All Ireland and had a parade down O'Connell Street, would you complain because we as Dubs don't need the party or the reminder?

rochey84

Wompa1 wrote: »

polygamysts...as far as I know they haven't actually achieved any legitimate stance as of yet. Should they though?

Never really thought about it before. Hmmm...

Really weak argument and I'm hoping it was actually a joke, considering to the best of my knowledge pologomy isn't a human right or something you're born with, its something you choose and its against the constitution and they have yet to bring the government to the European courts to attempt gaining legitimacy here.

whiteboy

why can't we have a pride parade for conservatives?

rochey84

whiteboy wrote: »

why can't we have a pride parade for conservatives?

See my previous posts, apply for the permit pick a date and fill in the neccessary paperwork, get a committee to organise it, but wouldn't any kind of parade for conservatives be against the very nature of being conservative?

Morag

Pride.

What is the opposite of pride? Shame.

For years people were "Gay"(LGBT) were told they should be ashamed of who and what they were, their sexuality, the people they loved. If they were public about their sexuality they faced jail, to shunning, to being attacked, burned out of their homes.

Many people forget the grip the RCC had on society and dictated how people behaved and how they mistreated other people. Still to this day there are people who will say that they don't know a 'gay' person, to this day we have people beaten up due to being 'gay' and we have 'gay' couples who can't hold hands walking down the street or do any of the normal acts of affection which couples do in public due to ignorance and intolerance.

It would be great some day that there was no longer a need for a Pride festival.
That young people growing up would know that being 'gay' is not wrong or shameful.
But we are not there yet.

Yes it would be nice if the media would report the events over the whole week instead of 90 seconds of footage which picks out the most 'colourful' parade participants but that is not the parades fault or that of those in it.

Anyone who says that Pride based on that 90secs does not represent them is just as ignorant. I suggest you go and have a look and see all the normal ordinary people who will be there taking part. The point of the Parade is to let people know there are a hell of a lot more LGBT people out there then they know.
We are not the tiny minority people think and invisible people have invisible rights.

whiteboy

rochey84 wrote: »

See my previous posts, apply for the permit pick a date and fill in the neccessary paperwork, get a committee to organise it, but wouldn't any kind of parade for conservatives be against the very nature of being conservative?

It could be more of a rally

Wompa1

rochey84 wrote: »

Really weak argument and I'm hoping it was actually a joke, considering to the best of my knowledge pologomy isn't a human right or something you're born with, its something you choose and its against the constitution and they have yet to bring the government to the European courts to attempt gaining legitimacy here.

It wasn't a joke. You asked for an example. I'm sure some of them feel like it's their right to have as many partners as they so choose.

Also on that whole born with it thing, my ex g/f left me for a woman. She did a psychology Phd and left me because she was a lesbian...she had sent me artciles about fluidity in sexuality which claimed for some people it's not something you are born with. Who do I listen to!?!?

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

Maybe but you have to remember that as stated previously it is not just reminder but a celebration, people party as a way of celebrating hence the big party. If Dublin won the All Ireland and had a parade down O'Connell Street, would you complain because we as Dubs don't need the party or the reminder?

The example you have provided represents a much larger subset of the population. Again this is more an argument for arguments sake because I don't really mind it, I just don't see the point.

Wompa1

Sharrow wrote: »

For years people were "Gay"(LGBT) were told they should be ashamed of who and what they were, their sexuality, the people they loved. If they were public about their sexuality they faced jail, to shunning, to being attacked, burned out of their homes.

Any links on gay people being jailed because of their sexuality in Ireland? never saw anything about that happening here. Had heard about it in England

Morag

I am not going trawling for links, the law was on the books here and it was only removed in 1993 so not even 13 years ago. if you want to go digging for case law do it yourself.

rochey84

philologos wrote: »

The example you have provided represents a much larger subset of the population. Again this is more an argument for arguments sake because I don't really mind it, I just don't see the point.

Either way the argument is valid, it doesn't matter the size of the subset, it is still a celebration, would you object to it then? ask for a more subtle celebration or reminder?

rochey84

Wompa1 wrote: »

It wasn't a joke. You asked for an example. I'm sure some of them feel like it's their right to have as many partners as they so choose.

Also on that whole born with it thing, my ex g/f left me for a woman. She did a psychology Phd and left me because she was a lesbian...she had sent me artciles about fluidity in sexuality which claimed for some people it's not something you are born with. Who do I listen to!?!?

Well for me personally and most gay people I know it was something they were aware of from puberty. I'm sorry to hear about your ex leaving ya for a woman, however I would say bisexuality is fluid, maybe asexuality. And they may feel its a right but they are not repressed the same way LGBT people were, you're arguments are really weak man!

rochey84

Sharrow wrote: »

Pride.

What is the opposite of pride? Shame.

For years people were "Gay"(LGBT) were told they should be ashamed of who and what they were, their sexuality, the people they loved. If they were public about their sexuality they faced jail, to shunning, to being attacked, burned out of their homes.

Many people forget the grip the RCC had on society and dictated how people behaved and how they mistreated other people. Still to this day there are people who will say that they don't know a 'gay' person, to this day we have people beaten up due to being 'gay' and we have 'gay' couples who can't hold hands walking down the street or do any of the normal acts of affection which couples do in public due to ignorance and intolerance.

It would be great some day that there was no longer a need for a Pride festival.
That young people growing up would know that being 'gay' is not wrong or shameful.
But we are not there yet.

Yes it would be nice if the media would report the events over the whole week instead of 90 seconds of footage which picks out the most 'colourful' parade participants but that is not the parades fault or that of those in it.

Anyone who says that Pride based on that 90secs does not represent them is just as ignorant. I suggest you go and have a look and see all the normal ordinary people who will be there taking part. The point of the Parade is to let people know there are a hell of a lot more LGBT people out there then they know.
We are not the tiny minority people think and invisible people have invisible rights.

+1 A great post and very well composed!

philologos

rochey84 wrote: »

Either way the argument is valid, it doesn't matter the size of the subset, it is still a celebration, would you object to it then? ask for a more subtle celebration or reminder?

Jews celebrate Yom Kippur. Muslims celebrate Ramadhan. Yet we don't see anything on the scale of the LGBT pride parade.

Wompa1

Sharrow wrote: »

I am not going trawling for links, the law was on the books here and it was only removed in 1993 so not even 13 years ago. if you want to go digging for case law do it yourself.

fair enough, I just asked. I don't give much of a toss anyway, was just asking for you to back up your statement. I've heard that volleyed around previously and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the law being upheld in Ireland. I'd take on the whole point of the hold of the Catholic Church but statements about being imprisoned..I haven't actually seen any names, figures or facts for that in Ireland. So if anyone has it, post it.

Wompa1

rochey84 wrote: »

Well for me personally and most gay people I know it was something they were aware of from puberty. I'm sorry to hear about your ex leaving ya for a woman, however I would say bisexuality is fluid, maybe asexuality. And they may feel its a right but they are not repressed the same way LGBT people were, you're arguments are really weak man!

she's not bi. She's lesbian according to herself. I got an education in Sexuality when I was with her as that was the study of her topic and right or wrong I help her with her study. I'm not coming out against gay people. You seem to have a very defensive manner about your posts. You are calling my arguments weak when they aren't weak and it's not really an argument. You are trying to stand up for your believes with weak proposals and ideas yourself that are open ended and up for debate. If that wasn't true, people wouldn't be posting in the way they are.

It's not an attack on you, it's not an attack on LGBT. It's a statement of opinion, which is based on experiences and fact from other people. I've been to gay pride days, I don't agree with them based on my own experience. You are trying to champion a cause valiantly but there's things you say which I disagree with and I'm entitled too, so is everyone else. It doesn't make anybody weak, close minded or bigotted. You haven't thrown those terms around but from my experience a lot of gay people who are passionate about it, do throw the terms around for anyone who in anyway tries to counter argue.

efb

Oh, Happy Pride Everyone!!!

Eric Cartman

gay pride brings out the worst elements of the gay community and just re-enforces the stereotype of over the top in your face queens.

Mike 1972

plein de force wrote: »

I just find playing up to negative stereotypes that you try to banish is counterproductive at the very least.

.

par·o·dy   /ˈpærədi/
[par-uh-dee]
noun, plural -dies, verb, -died, -dy·ing.
–noun
1. a humorous or satirical imitation of a serious piece of literature or writing: his hilarious parody of Hamlet's soliloquy.
2. the genre of literary composition represented by such imitations.
3. a burlesque imitation of a musical composition.
4. any humorous, satirical, or burlesque imitation, as of a person, event, etc.
5. the use in the 16th century of borrowed material in a musical setting of the mass (parody Mass).
6. a poor or feeble imitation or semblance; travesty: His acting is a parody of his past greatness.
–verb (used with object)
7. to imitate (a composition, author, etc.) for purposes of ridicule or satire.
8. to imitate poorly or feebly; travesty.

Morag

Eric Cartman wrote: »

gay pride brings out the worst elements of the gay community and just re-enforces the stereotype of over the top in your face queens.

Bullshít.

People who don't take part in any of the events running the full week and only look at what rte show on the news for 90secs think/say that.

Eric Cartman

Sharrow wrote: »

Bullshít.

People who don't take part in any of the events running the full week and only look at what rte show on the news for 90secs think/say that.

but your not trying to stop people who take part discriminating , your trying to stop the antos and decos sitting on walls from kicking the sh*t out of some gay lad on his way home from the george and trying to get all the old fogie politicians to recognise the right to marry etc....

these people will be the ones watching the 90 second clip on the news or seeing the photos in the papers, and all theyll see is another f*cking queen running round in rainbows and hotpants

I have no problem with gay people, I f*cking hate queens, you can be born gay, nobody is born a fagg*t

PHB

man.about.town wrote: »

why cant we have a straight pride parade???

i dont see why they must have a gay pride parade, there is not much anti homosexuality left in ireland anymore as far as i can, we are a very accepting bunch.

Tell that to Norris

holystungun9

PHB wrote: »

Tell that to Norris

Chuck Norris is gay???

Spread

holystungun9 wrote: »

Chuck Norris is gay???

This little doggie asked him the same question :eek:

Morag

Eric Cartman wrote: »

but your not trying to stop people who take part discriminating , your trying to stop the antos and decos sitting on walls from kicking the sh*t out of some gay lad on his way home from the george and trying to get all the old fogie politicians to recognise the right to marry etc....

It's also about the people who will on the jury putting anto or deco down for comitting a hate crime.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

these people will be the ones watching the 90 second clip on the news or seeing the photos in the papers, and all theyll see is another f*cking queen running round in rainbows and hotpants

If the ignorant which to remain so then nothing can be done about them.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have no problem with gay people, I f*cking hate queens, you can be born gay, nobody is born a fagg*t

Charming, so you have issues with effeminate men. Ever stop to ask yourself why?

Eric Cartman

Sharrow wrote: »

Charming, so you have issues with effeminate men. Ever stop to ask yourself why?

yes , for the same reason that you mightnt be friends with a drug addict, or like hanging around with racists

its not some bull**** underlying homosexual tendancies or any of that crap , its my personal preference and I believe that men parading round in hotpants or wearing bondage gear to a parade etc... is unacceptable, its something i disagree with and dont want to associate with people like that or be friends with anyone who makes those choices

Morag

Eric Cartman wrote: »

yes , for the same reason that you mightnt be friends with a drug addict, or like hanging around with racists

its not some bull**** underlying homosexual tendancies or any of that crap , its my personal preference and I believe that men parading round in hotpants or wearing bondage gear to a parade etc... is unacceptable, its something i disagree with and dont want to associate with people like that or be friends with anyone who makes those choices

I never infered you were a closet case, I just asked why you had issues with those who are not gender 'norm'.

I have never seen anyone in bondage gear at the dublin pride parade.
Thats not how the kink community rolls and it's a matter of consideration and consent.

MagicSean

I don't get were the pride comes in? Why would you be proud of your sexual orientation? Considering it is supposed to be something you are born with how is it different from a brunette pride day or a tall person pride day?

celj

Embarrassing.

Was in Cork few weeks ago when they were being proud.
Didn't do themselves a lot of favours with the old stereotype thing.

efb

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I don't get were the pride comes in? Why would you be proud of your sexual orientation? Considering it is supposed to be something you are born with how is it different from a brunette pride day or a tall person pride day?

Were proud because before it was something that we were told was wrong and to ashamed of.

MagicSean

efb wrote: »

Were proud because before it was something that we were told was wrong and to ashamed of.

Like being ginger?

philologos

efb wrote: »

Were proud because before it was something that we were told was wrong and to ashamed of.

People are entitled to whatever opinion they like on the subject as to the morality of same-sex sexual activity / family units etc. I still don't get how the pride parade is constructive to society at large. How does it argue for your position?