How much real control had the Normans 1169 - Tudors ?

PatsytheNazi

How much real control had the Normans/English outside of the Pale on the rest of Ireland. Theoretically the Crown ruled all of Ireland, but is it right that outside of the Pale English rule, gathering of taxes etc effectively didn't exist ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

ejmaztec

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

How much real control had the Normans/English outside of the Pale on the rest of Ireland. Theoretically the Crown ruled all of Ireland, but is it right that outside of the Pale English rule, gathering of taxes etc effectively didn't exist ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

Surely, with the Norman fortifications dotted all over the country, this must be evidence enough of the muscle available to collect whatever the resident aristocrat thought was his due?

PatsytheNazi

ejmaztec wrote: »

Surely, with the Norman fortifications dotted all over the country, this must be evidence enough of the muscle available to collect whatever the resident aristocrat thought was his due?

For instance take the Battle of Dysert O'Dea in 1318. As as result the Normans had to remain outside of Thomond.So I wonder, was similiar repeated in other parts of the country outside of the Pale ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dysert_O%27Dea

MarchDub

That's actually a huge question and would take up much space in answering because there was so much variance in what and who were controlled over hundreds of years and in which places. It's not enough to look at what was declared in law – because laws were not always effective - but to also look at how it all worked out. It was a very mixed experience for the English authorities and that’s why the Pale area came into existence.

For instance, in 1246 there was a decree that ‘The Laws of England to be Observed in Ireland' and then in 1277 the 'Proposed Extension of English Law to the Native Irish'. These were attempts at outlawing the native Irish Brehon Law -but the actual evidence shows that Brehon Law was not obliterated until 1603 when English Common Law was finally established. For English law, read the Feudal system with overlords, primogenitor and a strict tax code. The law carried with it a whole way of life. Ui Neill himself stated that the Nine Years War was all about these issues.

Back in 1297 we had the first Irish Parliament. This was stated in document that the purpose of the parliament was to establish order - there had been many complaints that the native Irish -described as ‘Irish felons’ were making incursions into England held land and making off with "booty and spoils". But the English settlers also came in for a scolding – many of them are described as having become 'degenerate' in adopting the Irish language and law. This reality of integration into Irish society by the Norman settlers proved a really serious issue for the establishment of English power.

The Statutes of Kilkenny in 1366 tried to redress some of this but are widely regarded as failing. Yet, they are a valuable insight into the social condition of Ireland at the time. What was really happening was as the original Norman settlers became integrated - primarily through marriage and local influence - into Irish society they ignored English law, employed brehons to settle disputes - and taxes became more difficult to extract. Eventually the Pale area became the only area under English law – and even then there were many Irish speakers and Irish customs being observed there also.