Sourdough Bread Making

Drake66

Any sourdough aficionados here. I'm not a bread maker but I decided to have a go at a sourdough loaf. It wasn't very good: way too sour, almost vinegary with a strong after-taste. Any tips? I used a wholemeal flour for the starter and the same for the bread mix. Should I use something else.

noworries

How many days have you been feeding/discarding the starter?

Drake66

7 days. I was discarding and feeding once a day. I wasn't particularly nerdy about quantities; I was just maintaining it to a a paste like consistency. I forgot to feed it one day and a layer of booze formed on top. It seemed ready for use yesterday: frothy and bubbly. Do you think it may not of been mature enough?

namurt

I decided to try this out last week. I couldn't get wholemeal strong flour so decided to try a mixture of strong white flour and normal wholemeal flour. I also made one with just strong white flour.
Fed them both for a week but the wholemeal one just smelt awful the whole time, whereas the white one was clearly developing better. Had to get rid of the wholemeal one in the end.
Made a loaf from the white one yesterday. It was a little acidic but still nice, hoping the next loaf will be better.

So, obviously not an aficionado but could it have something to do with it being wholemeal flour?

Drake66

namurt wrote: »

I decided to try this out last week. I couldn't get wholemeal strong flour so decided to try a mixture of strong white flour and normal wholemeal flour. I also made one with just strong white flour.
Fed them both for a week but the wholemeal one just smelt awful the whole time, whereas the white one was clearly developing better. Had to get rid of the wholemeal one in the end.
Made a loaf from the white one yesterday. It was a little acidic but still nice, hoping the next loaf will be better.

So, obviously not an aficionado but could it have something to do with it being wholemeal flour?

The wholemeal mix just didn't work at all then? Did you get the fruity pleasant aroma everybody mentions off the strong white flour starter? Mine, while not fully unpleasant, has a sort of acrid smell in parts. It is not overpowering but it is definitely there.

Jack B. Badd

I've been making sourdough bread for the past few months, usually a loaf a week & it's still very much an experiment.

I think the sour/vinegar taste will balance out as the starter matures because my first loaf was quite sour & the more recent ones are more to my tastes.

I'm experimenting with wholewheat to white flour ratios for the dough (1:2 seems to be good), too much wholemeal & my loaf is very dense, too white & I get a weak loaf. Also rising & proving times are being varied to see how it reacts. Everything I end up with is very edible, some just get polished off sooner than others - oddly most of my loaves go fantastically with jam which I wouldn't have pegged as a topping for sourdough

Oh and as far as smell goes, my starter went through a couple of days of smelling like baby vomit in the first week but now has this lovely boozy yeasty smell - I wouldn't call it fruity though...

noworries

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I've been making sourdough bread for the past few months, usually a loaf a week & it's still very much an experiment.

I think the sour/vinegar taste will balance out as the starter matures because my first loaf was quite sour & the more recent ones are more to my tastes.

I'm experimenting with wholewheat to white flour ratios for the dough (1:2 seems to be good), too much wholemeal & my loaf is very dense, too white & I get a weak loaf. Also rising & proving times are being varied to see how it reacts. Everything I end up with is very edible, some just get polished off sooner than others - oddly most of my loaves go fantastically with jam which I wouldn't have pegged as a topping for sourdough

Oh and as far as smell goes, my starter went through a couple of days of smelling like baby vomit in the first week but now has this lovely boozy yeasty smell - I wouldn't call it fruity though...

^^^^
Pretty much my experience too. I always describe the smell as a beery/aley type smell. I have experimented with wholemeal alot and now just add a few handfuls to my white flour for an extra bite.

OP, I was vvvvery nerdy for the first week or so but the starter is very forgiving but I did not start making bread until the smell was sweet and the starter had been on the go for 10 days.

Drake66

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I've been making sourdough bread for the past few months, usually a loaf a week & it's still very much an experiment.

I think the sour/vinegar taste will balance out as the starter matures because my first loaf was quite sour & the more recent ones are more to my tastes.

I'm experimenting with wholewheat to white flour ratios for the dough (1:2 seems to be good), too much wholemeal & my loaf is very dense, too white & I get a weak loaf. Also rising & proving times are being varied to see how it reacts. Everything I end up with is very edible, some just get polished off sooner than others - oddly most of my loaves go fantastically with jam which I wouldn't have pegged as a topping for sourdough

Oh and as far as smell goes, my starter went through a couple of days of smelling like baby vomit in the first week but now has this lovely boozy yeasty smell - I wouldn't call it fruity though...

I was hoping to pick your brains jack. I saw your thread about sourdough bread and actually, my loaf turned out quite like the picture of the one you posted. Unfortunately my one just wasn't palatable. Although there seems to be a massive learning curve involved in this type of bread making.

What sort of proving times are you finding to work? I knocked it back and kneaded it for the second rise at 12 last night. I left it to prove until I got up at 6 this morning to put it in the oven. I think that was probably too much and I read somewhere that over-proving the loaf will enhance the sourness in the loaf.

I will start introducing strong white flour to the starter/bread mix. Thanks for the advice.

Jack B. Badd

Drake66 wrote: »

What sort of proving times are you finding to work? I knocked it back and kneaded it for the second rise at 12 last night. I left it to prove until I got up at 6 this morning to put it in the oven. I think that was probably too much and I read somewhere that over-proving the loaf will enhance the sourness in the loaf.

Yeah, as far as I can gather the longer you leave it ferment, rise & prove the greater the flavour but I guess you can go too far

I was using the River Cottage recipe, leaving the sponge to ferment for about 8-10 hours while at work, then rise overnight and prove in the morning (approx half the rise time). However as I started moving towards whiter loaves I reduced the rising & proving times - the rough guide times from the recipe seemed too long especially for the rise time, I think I was exhausting the dough & then proving it took long & overall I wasn't getting a decent sized loaf.

I still leave the sponge for about 10 hours - starter has been mixed in straight from the fridge so it takes a while to warm up & really get going. I've reduced rise to about 4-6 hours depending on the flour ratios - basically just enough time for it to double rather than triple or more. Then leave it to double again after knocking back - again, about half the rise time.

I tried to retard the rise time by rising in the fridge last weekend - not doing that again! The loaf was far too chewy for my liking and I wouldn't appreciate a repeat.

Like I said, it's still in the experimentation phase & I'm sure that there are bakers out there who'd like to strangle me for dicking around with my timing like this I read Bread Matters by Andrew Whitley & he has completely different instructions for his wheat sourdough - his message seems to be that the sponge fermentation does most of the work & after a short rise/rest period, you prove for approx 5 hours. I must try his timings some weekend when I'm not too busy.

namurt

Not to be too graphic but the wholemeal one smelled like vomit, it was really awful but the white one smelled yeasty basically. Also, I had been covering both with cling film and it was clearly rising up on the white one but not on the wholemeal one which made me think the wholemeal one really wasn't fermenting much.
It was actually quite interesting to be able to compare the two.

Also, regarding the rising time. I'm also following the River Cottage recipe. As you mentioned, Jack, it says to leave it to rise throughout the day until double its size but I found that after about 3 hours it was double its size so I knocked it back and left it to rise again and it worked out fine.

Has anyone here tried any different recipes using the starter? It's great to have and I pretty much just eat white bread anyway but I was wondering how you could vary the dough but still use the same starter, e.g. add sugar to make a sweeter bread or something. Any suggestions?

Drake66

Thanks guys. What I'm going to do is to revitalise my starter with strong white flour and keep going with it. I will let you know how it works out when I attempt it again.

Jack B. Badd

namurt wrote: »

Has anyone here tried any different recipes using the starter? It's great to have and I pretty much just eat white bread anyway but I was wondering how you could vary the dough but still use the same starter, e.g. add sugar to make a sweeter bread or something. Any suggestions?

I've used mine to make a semi-levan sun-dried tomato & red onion bread which is divine & also a batch of cheese rounds...nom nom nom

namurt

Oooh, they sound good Jack. Any chance of getting the recipes?

After making a second loaf in as many days I've decided to feed the starter enough so that I can leave it for a few days (don't think it's right to eat nearly a loaf of bread a day lol). Really hope it survives ok.

Good luck Drake, I hope it works out for you.

Jack B. Badd

namurt wrote: »

Oooh, they sound good Jack. Any chance of getting the recipes?

After making a second loaf in as many days I've decided to feed the starter enough so that I can leave it for a few days (don't think it's right to eat nearly a loaf of bread a day lol). Really hope it survives ok.

Good luck Drake, I hope it works out for you.

If you store her in the fridge you only have to feed once a week or fortnight and can work feeding around your bread making schedule. I'd never get through a loaf a day - I'd burst!

I'll post recipes this evening - I think I pimped Bread Matters earlier but I'll have to mention it again as it's where I got the original recipes & then just amended them for sourdough. It's a genuinely brilliant book if you're looking to bake bread regularly.

namurt

Yeh, I only realised after adding enough flour to keep it going that I could've just put it in the fridge, will try that next time because I'm not quite sure what I have to do now to revitalise it. Will just have to figure that out.

Must have a look for that book, might lead to a bread overdose if I get it though!!!

Jack B. Badd

Sun-dried Tomato & Red Onion Bread:

30g sun-dried tomatoes
50g boiling water
50g tomato puree
Roughly chop sun-dried tomatoes and soak in boiling water. Once cooled, add puree & whiz in a blender until it's a paste with bits in.

50g red onions
15g olive oil
Peel & finely slice the onion. Heat the oil in a pan and fry the onion rings until slightly softened but not mushy. Allow to cool.

30g sunflower seeds
5g tamari or soy sauce
Roast the sunflower seeds on a dry baking tray in a 200 C oven, stirring regularly, until they begin to colour. Once coloured, throw the tamari or soy sauce on the seeds and stir. Transfer to a bowl and allow to cool - you may need to break them up as they cool as they will stick together.

Approx. 600g sourdough dough from the River Cottage recipe - I amended this by adding a tsp of bakers yeast when mixing the sponge and reducing the rise time as I was a bit concerned it didn't have enough energy to rise the loaf with the extra ingredients included but the a full sourdough would probably be fine. Just don't contaminate your starter with the bakers yeast.
1g chilli powder
1g tumeric
20g tomato puree
65g red onion mix from above
35g sunflower seed mix from above
130g sun-dried tomato mix from above
Stir spices, onion mix (incl oil), tomato puree and sunflower seed mix together. After the dough has been knocked back, spread it onto the worktop until approx. 1-1.5 cm thick. Spread the tomato, onion and seed mix on top of it and fold the dough over. Press it down and fold over again gently and repeat 3-4 times until the mix is distributed evenly. At this point if you want two smaller loaves you can separate the dough mix into two pieces. Allow to relax for a few minutes and then stretch the dough into a flat rectangle using a rolling pin or your hands. Spread the sun-dried tomato mix over the dough and then roll it like a swiss-roll - if you have a sticky dough like mine was, a set of dough scrapers here is invaluable. Curl the swiss-roll of dough into an S shape and transfer to one large or, if you have previously separated the dough, two small loaf tins (greased). Cover loosely and allow to prove to approx twice the size. Bake in a 190 C oven for approx. 20-30 mins, keeping an eye that they don't scorch. Pop on to a wire tray to cool once baked.

Cheese bread
Approx. 600g sourdough (as above)
1g chilli powder
1g ground cumin
120g grated cheese
1 beaten egg
100g grated cheese for topping
Stir spices into 120g grated cheese. After knocking back, fold the dough around the cheese until it is evenly distributed - you may need to add a little water if it starts to tighten up. Divide into 3 equal pieces and mould into round balls. Leave to relax for 1-2 minutes and press down so that the diameter is roughly doubled. Place on a baking tray lined with parchment/greaseproof/baking paper, far enough apart so as not to touch. With a scraper or knife mark the rounds with a cross, cutting almost but not quite through to the bottom of the round. Brush the surface with the beaten egg and top with the remaining grated cheese. Prove until risen nicely (this is what the recipe says - I'm not sure what "risen nicely" is, I left them approximately double though they spread out more than they rose up). Bake in a 190 C oven for 15-20 mins. Delicious warm or cool

Enjoy!

namurt

Finally got around to trying the cheese bread recipe. It's delicious. Had it with pizza last night and with beetroot hummus today.

Thanks so much for the recipe Jack.

Drake66

Success! I have been working on my stater for around two weeks using the suggestions made by you guys. It worked out well I must say. A nice well risen loaf with a mild sour flavour. Very nice indeed. I have been cooking up a few loaves with dried yeast to compare and contrast; and learn a bit about this bread-making lark. The sourdough has worked out quite favourably in comparison. Cheers noworries, jack b badd and namurt!

Drake66

Here is a picture of the loaf by the way!

TeRmInAlCrAzY

Drake66 wrote: »

Here is a picture of the loaf by the way!

Wow looks nomworthy

wd

Will23

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but hope someone might be able to help me out!

Started my starter last weekend, it rose very well after 3 days and then I discarded half and fed it (as the recipe). I waited 2 days and it didn't rise at all and a layer of brown liquid had formed on top. I added more dry flour and 3 days later it was the same, unrisen and with a brown liquid layer.

I have just discarded half and fed it again now, should I be expecting it to rise again? The recipe I have says if you get the brown layer it is over active?

When will I know it is ready to use?

All help appreciated, was really hoping it would work !

Will

genuine leather

How is your starter going for you Will?

Tbh i have not made sourdough for awhile(deep freeze at the moment). Reasonably good results but not as good as i would have liked.
I just could not get my head around the flour that gets discarded. Although there are recipes for using it up i did not want to bake/store the discard after refreshing, a fridge full of starter:). I ve just not fully committed to the process, yet.

At the time of your post you had three feedings done.You mentioned adding just dry flour, did you add flour and water with each feeding and what was the consistency you aimed for?

Something similar to a thick batter afaik is generally accepted as good.
My initial starters were fed daily when establishing, and when ready to make bread,got an initial feeding to get the yeast active.

What flour have you used for the starter?

Will23

Cheers for your response.

I have two on the go, one seems to be active now, feeding with strong white flour and water mix and discarding half as I go (seems very wasteful!)

I probably need to feed it daily this week, I'm keeping it out in the kitchen! I read that it takes about two weeks to get the flavour going! Will probably try to make a loaf this weekend!

The other starter is not going well, it keeps forming a dark liquid layer on the surface and is not bubbling at all. I'll keep trying it to see if I can revive it. Any idea what could be happening there?

Ya odlums strong White is the flour I'm using.

I'll let you know if there are any further 'developments' and let you know how the loaf turns out!

Will

Jack B. Badd

The dark liquid is an alcohol called hooch, it usually indicates that the starter has exhausted its food. Depending on who you talk to, you can discard the hooch before feeding or stir it back into the starter.
How long has that starter been going & how frequently do you feed? Anything I've heard on the topic indicates you should feed daily during the first couple of weeks until the ecosystem in the starter settles down.
Also, what does it smell like? Unless it smells rancid, it's probably not gone bad, it just needs a bit of time (and food!) until it settles down. Don't fret over it anyway, they're very robust!

genuine leather

Personally i have found my wholemeal starter to darken quicker, my white starter
is clean,per say, with some hooch forming as Jbb mentioned. My own thoughts on this would be, that the wholemeal,being made with the full grain, there will be many more organisms involved in the maturing/establishing process, and would use up the available food quicker and then as the yeast takes a back seat, bacteria become more active.

I think patience and nurturing your own starter is key initially,that it can live for decades once fed and watered routinely, truly is remarkable. I have an old dough starter thats in its third year and continually developing its own unique flavour.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.