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Comprehension here has little to do with the HPAT - attention span does. I found one difficulty when I was practicing for the HPAT was that I'd get bored half-way through a passage, not absorb a sentence or two, then go "oh damn" and have to re-read them.
I've heard of this more than once - a particular problem with the younger generations used to 'scanning' internet pages! :pac:0 -
No I'm not. The fundamentals of who a person is are in no way related to the HPAT. It is the skills they possess which are saught in the HPAT and thats what we're talking about. You could be the most arrogant pr**k in 2009 and after a harsh dose of humility, be the nicest, most caring person in the world in 2010. But still, the skills you possessed in 2009 do not change. You can become more conscious of time, see trends in question patterns...but you're no more "suitable" as you were the year before. You've merely learned from your first experience how to deal with the exam.
With your point about sitting a different HPAT a different day, is an aptitude test not an aptitude test? Your personality will not change your result.
However, a few points:
"the skills you possessed in 2009 do not change"
Of course they do. Are you saying that if I started learning how to play golf in 2009, spent night and day practicing it, I would not be better at golf in 2010? Or if I started to come out of my shell in 2009 and speak to people, my communication skills would not improve over time? Skills always change - you rarely remain bad at something forever unless you don't refine it.
Now what skills do the HPAT measure? In section 1, your critical thinking, standard English comprehension, arithmetic, etc. These are things which aren't really thought in school (except for English comprehension), but you learn them in life. They cannot be thought in school, imo. They are simply not them kinda skills.
In section 2, interpersonal understanding (and once again, English comprehension). I think my point is obvious enough here - you can't get better at communicating and understand people in a day. It's a skill you build up over life.
Section 3 however, is, by ACER's own admission (or at least, by the man over the UCD admission office - who's name eludes me now) causing some trouble. The evidence for this is mixed. I know this because the aforementioned UCD admission guy gave a lecture about the HPAT at the UCD open day earlier this year. That's also how I know about what the HPAT seeks (but does it succeed?) to measure.
There is nothing anyone can do, however, by people feeling more comfortable taking the HPAT for a second time than they did the first time and improving their score.
*Hopes after I submit this post there isn't another 300 I need to reply to*Ya but that's you. I never said we could not understand the passage. But under the ridiculous time conraints placed on each question, it is very difficult to retrieve the correct answer when we've been taught to read passively and search for key words in the LC. The HPAT is not like that. You have to read, assess and deduce in ~2 minutes. Until the HPAT, students we're not typically put in situation like that.
That was my point0 -
Interesting link, thanks. I am prone to a bit of hyperbole :pac: but I believe that, relative to our recent past, we are at a very low ebb. Say what you like about retention rates and immigration, the fact is that the quality of written English by Irish students in 3rd level has reached frighteningly low levels. The LC mightn't look like it has changed that much, but a blind eye is turned to poor sentence construction and spelling all the way through school. Different priorities (and abilities) of teachers.
Hyperbole has risen like a 1,000,000% this year.
LC English focuses far more on what you say (PC) rather than how you say it (LM). Txt msgin n FB n stuf r prob nt helpn eithr. Pity.0 -
"the skills you possessed in 2009 do not change"
Of course they do. Are you saying that if I started learning how to play golf in 2009, spent night and day practicing it, I would not be better at golf in 2010? Or if I started to come out of my shell in 2009 and speak to people, my communication skills would not improve over time? Skills always change - you rarely remain bad at something forever unless you don't refine it.
*Hopes after I submit this post there isn't another 300 I need to reply to*
Really liked the last part haha
Ok so lets say we agree that your skills can get better with time and experience. Therefore, by your own admission, you can get better at being a doctor. You can become better at critical thinking by repeated exposure to situations which require it. Your interpersonal skills can get better by dealing with more and more people of all different mental and personal states.
With this in mind, is the HPAT rendered useless in the respect that it claims to test your suitability when, in fact, your suitability can be learned/honed with experience?0 -
With this in mind, is the HPAT rendered useless in the respect that it claims to test your suitability when, in fact, your suitability can be learned/honed with experience?
Note that, I'm not sure if the HPAT accurately measures these skills or not. I have not looked at the previous research (presumably from the longer-implemented Australian UMAT), and in fact, most of my knowledge on the subject comes from the UCD lecture given the main admission officer there on the HPAT.0 -
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As i see it the problem is they need more available places. Why are they afraid to let more people in? if they are suited they will pass the exams and if not they would most probably faulter at the 1st or 2nd semester.
How many people actually want to be a doctor out of our population of 4.5 million and have the means and time to attend college? We need more doctors we have a shortage.
What is the cost of allowing more students to enter? An average of less than 40% of students complete their courses and if you presume that the people who you allow in who have not met the criteria will have a higher fail rate (maybe, maybe not) would be less likely to attend etc (if thats what you believe) then that percentage will be further reduced. The Lecturers are there anyway....the buildings are there anyway......would the colleges even need extra lecturers or classes?
What would happen if you left the door open and said "come ahead if you think you have what it takes to be a doctor"? The only problem I can see is the medical professional who would probably not wish to have their "skills" devalued but what are they afraid of if these uneligable people are deemed by them not capable of completing a medicine course. The benefits could be enormous, I don`t see a problem.
I would like more available doctors, more choice and more variety in the medical profession.0 -
As i see it the problem is they need more available places. Why are they afraid to let more people in? if they are suited they will pass the exams and if not they would most probably faulter at the 1st or 2nd semester.
How many people actually want to be a doctor out of our population of 4.5 million and have the means and time to attend college? We need more doctors we have a shortage.
What is the cost of allowing more students to enter? An average of less than 40% of students complete their courses and if you presume that the people who you allow in who have not met the criteria will have a higher fail rate (maybe, maybe not) would be less likely to attend etc (if thats what you believe) then that percentage will be further reduced. The Lecturers are there anyway....the buildings are there anyway......would the colleges even need extra lecturers or classes?
What would happen if you left the door open and said "come ahead if you think you have what it takes to be a doctor"? The only problem I can see is the medical professional who would probably not wish to have their "skills" devalued but what are they afraid of if these uneligable people are deemed by them not capable of completing a medicine course. The benefits could be enormous, I don`t see a problem.
I would like more available doctors, more choice and more variety in the medical profession.
We have a shortage of Employed doctors. There are more graduates than ever, just no one is hiring them0 -
As i see it the problem is they need more available places. Why are they afraid to let more people in? if they are suited they will pass the exams and if not they would most probably faulter at the 1st or 2nd semester.
How many people actually want to be a doctor out of our population of 4.5 million and have the means and time to attend college? We need more doctors we have a shortage.
What is the cost of allowing more students to enter? An average of less than 40% of students complete their courses and if you presume that the people who you allow in who have not met the criteria will have a higher fail rate (maybe, maybe not) would be less likely to attend etc (if thats what you believe) then that percentage will be further reduced. The Lecturers are there anyway....the buildings are there anyway......would the colleges even need extra lecturers or classes?
What would happen if you left the door open and said "come ahead if you think you have what it takes to be a doctor"? The only problem I can see is the medical professional who would probably not wish to have their "skills" devalued but what are they afraid of if these uneligable people are deemed by them not capable of completing a medicine course. The benefits could be enormous, I don`t see a problem.
I would like more available doctors, more choice and more variety in the medical profession.
Ireland already trains a record amount of medical students (according to RTÉ news). Unfortunately, most are (rather wisely) going to Australia where working conditions are much better than here in Ireland.
I reckon a time is looming when doctors will have to sign a contract that in return for their education at an Irish medical school, they'll have to spend a period of time working in an Irish hospital as junior doctor.
So basically, the problem isn't numbers, but the fact that graduates are emigrating. Say 60% of all medical school graduates emigrate. If there are 100 graduating, 40 will stay here and work in Ireland. Now you could increase the numbers so 1000 will graduate, and 400 will stay and work in Ireland. But it could be solved much more simply and far more cheaply by getting them to sign a contract obliging them to work here for a while when they graduate, in return for their education.
In my opinion, the problem is not medical schools, but the conditions for Irish doctors that drive them away from here.
Source for the above: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfeykfcwgbau/rss2/ (which, you may note, is from January - this is a common problem and long-foreseen crisis)0 -
An article with a rather outdated source (1998) here says that training a medical student in England costs £200,000.
Ireland already trains a record amount of medical students (according to RTÉ news). Unfortunately, most are (rather wisely) going to Australia where working conditions are much better than here in Ireland.
I reckon a time is looming when doctors will have to sign a contract that in return for their education at an Irish medical school, they'll have to spend a period of time working in an Irish hospital as junior doctor.
So basically, the problem isn't numbers, but the fact that graduates are emigrating. Say 60% of all medical school graduates emigrate. If there are 100 graduating, 40 will stay here and work in Ireland. Now you could increase the numbers so 1000 will graduate, and 400 will stay and work in Ireland. But it could be solved much more simply and far more cheaply by getting them to sign a contract obliging them to work here for a while when they graduate, in return for their education.
In my opinion, the problem is not medical schools, but the conditions for Irish doctors that drive them away from here.
Source for the above: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfeykfcwgbau
/rss2/ (which, you may note, is from January - this is a common problem and long-foreseen crisis)
I`d be very interested in looking at those figures but not at 2am! so tomorrow maybe.
Ireland may TRAIN a record number, although not sure how this is correct, but I`m sure a hefty proportion will be internationals to start with, want to see how many Irish students are getting the opportunity to study medicine.
The current conditions are directly related to the current spate of doctors and their protectionist agenda, are they not? so how is more of the same going to resolve the issues. I would prefer doctors to be thick on the ground at least then you may have some chance of getting some kind of quality service.0 -
I`d be very interested in looking at those figures but not at 2am! so tomorrow maybe.
Ireland may TRAIN a record number, although not sure how this is correct, but I`m sure a hefty proportion will be internationals to start with, want to see how many Irish students are getting the opportunity to study medicine.
International (outside the EU) students must pay full fees here in Ireland - and hence actually probably end up reimbursing the State somewhat.The current conditions are directly related to the current spate of doctors and their protectionist agenda, are they not? so how is more of the same going to resolve the issues. I would prefer doctors to be thick on the ground at least then you may have some chance of getting some kind of quality service.What is "more of the same"?
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I heard the other day that there are not enough Junior Doctors in Ireland and we are currently attempting to bring some over from foreign countries. However if more places were allocated to each Medical institution, there would not be a shortage of Junior Doctors and instead of giving our jobs away we could give them to our fellow Irish men and women, so many of whom are currently unemployed or doing a course in which they have ...]
One of the principal reasons for the shortage is not an insufficiency of Irish medical students but rather their unwillingness to work as NCHDs under the current system, ie most get out of hospital based medicine as soon as possible or leave Ireland either for a change of scenery or a more "acceptable" hospital environment. Personally, I think that subsidised university education should require some payback, especially given the longer term of Tge undergraduate course. Perhaps staying within in a system and trying to change it is better than simple abandonment!0 -
One of the principal reasons for the shortage is not an insufficiency of Irish medical students but rather their unwillingness to work as NCHDs under the current system, ie most get out of hospital based medicine as soon as possible or leave Ireland either for a change of scenery or a more "acceptable" hospital environment. Personally, I think that subsidised university education should require some payback, especially given the longer term of Tge undergraduate course. Perhaps staying within in a system and trying to change it is better than simple abandonment!
Yeah I agree there. I personally like the system in England where students who study health courses are obliged to work for 6months in the NHS as payback for their education. That would irradicate the requirement for shipping in outseid doctors and give these upcoming doctors a fighting chance.0 -
Why are people complaining about time constraints in the HPAT?
I for one would like my doctor to be able to think and make decisions quickly ><0 -
I still don't get how interviews would be biased.
If you want to apply for a college in Dublin then they should get an interviewer from Galway. You want to go to cork? Then you have to see an interviewer from Dublin.
I mean if they can find people to do orals and correct exams in the LC then surely they can find a way to make the interview process fair and unbiased?
Hell could they not even get a few people over from England? It can't cost much more than the Hpat is currently.0 -
Why are people complaining about time constraints in the HPAT?
I for one would like my doctor to be able to think and make decisions quickly ><
True. But what I'm saying is that as you are exposed more and more to situations which require you to make decisions quickly, you in turn become faster on your feet. "You learn through experience".
The HPAT does not allow for this. You are expected to make these decisions in a short amount of time having previously been allowed a more substantial amount of time to answer questions in the LC.
Think of it this way: When you first start learning how to type correctly on a keyboard, you're quite slow for a while until you get more comfortable in that situation. As time passes, you get progressively faster until it's like second nature. The same principle applies.
Therefore more time should be allotted to the HPAT because if it is to truely test for suitability, you should be given adequate time to decide upon answers. As it stands, many people do poorly in the HPAT because they either run out of time and miss whole questions or they decide on an incorrect answer because they try to remain within the time limit.0 -
I still don't get how interviews would be biased.
If you want to apply for a college in Dublin then they should get an interviewer from Galway. You want to go to cork? Then you have to see an interviewer from Dublin.
I mean if they can find people yo do orals and correct exams in the LC then surely they can find a way to make the interview process fair and unbiased?
Hell could they not even get a few people over from England? It can't cost much more than the Hpat is currently.
Yeah that's a good point. If it works for the Leaving Cert ('the most important exam you will ever take') then why not for Medicine?0 -
Yeah that's a good point. If it works for the Leaving Cert ('the most important exam you will ever take') then why not for Medicine?
The medical community in Ireland is tiny, even more so given the fact that we have a smaller doctor-patient ratio than the EU average. It's almost guaranteed that a doctor would end up interviewing one of the relatives of his/her colleagues at some stage. That throws objectivity and fairness out the window.
To make it fair you would have to bring in international interviewers with no previous association with the Irish healthcare system.
In regards to your keyboard analogy, itsn't applicable to the HPAT since you're supposed to have not seen the test material before. Ideally, it tests how well you cope with a scenario you're not familiar with.
You get better at typing because you become more accustomed to it. Almost everyone could answer every question on the HPAT correctly if given enough time.0 -
In regards to your keyboard analogy, itsn't applicable to the HPAT since you're supposed to have not seen the test material before. Ideally, it tests how well you cope with a scenario you're not familiar with.
You get better at typing because you become more accustomed to it. Almost everyone could answer every question on the HPAT correctly if given enough time.
Actually it does for the purpose of addressing one users comment about wanting their Doctors being able to make decisions off the cuff. I was not using that analogy to suggest that the more you do it, the better you get because you know how each and every question is structured and thus know how to extract the answer. I was showing that timing can be made more efficient with practise. You become more conscious of time in the HPAT just like you want to type faster on a keyboard. It's not that you get better because you get used to the style of question. Rather it is that you will not allow yourself to spend more time on one question that is quite easy than of that which is harder. But I understand how that analogy may have been misunderstood
I disagree with your belief that the HPAT could be conquered by most people should they be given sufficient time. If the HPAT really is an aptitude test, increasing the amount of time should only make a difference to those who are suitable to be Doctors but who would have fallen to the HPAT because of time (missing qeustions, having to guess because time is running out). If you're not suitable for Medicine, no amount of extra time would change that. You would still be incapable of finding the correct answer. The HPAT is not/should not be about time management. It is to test your "aptutide" for a career in Medicine.0 -
Actually it does for the purpose of addressing one users comment about wanting their Doctors being able to make decisions off the cuff. I was not using that analogy to suggest that the more you do it, the better you get because you know how each and every question is structured and thus know how to extract the answer. I was showing that timing can be made more efficient with practise. You become more conscious of time in the HPAT just like you want to type faster on a keyboard. It's not that you get better because you get used to the style of question. Rather it is that you will not allow yourself to spend more time on one question that is quite easy than of that which is harder. But I understand how that analogy may have been misunderstood
I disagree with your belief that the HPAT could be conquered by most people should they be given sufficient time. If the HPAT really is an aptitude test, increasing the amount of time should only make a difference to those who are suitable to be Doctors but who would have fallen to the HPAT because of time (missing qeustions, having to guess because time is running out). If you're not suitable for Medicine, no amount of extra time would change that. You would still be incapable of finding the correct answer. The HPAT is not/should not be about time management. It is to test your "aptutide" for a career in Medicine.
It's not a belief, it's common sense. If you gave someone, with no timing issues, the HPAT paper and a decade to scutinise their answers they would inevitably perform better than if they took the test in 2.5 hours.
The biggest challenge in the HPAT is quantitative, not qualitative.0 -
It's not a belief, it's common sense. If you gave someone, with no timing issues, the HPAT paper and a decade to scutinise their answers they would inevitably perform better than if they took the test in 2.5 hours.
The biggest challenge in the HPAT is quantitative, not qualitative.
But I never said to give that much time. Obviously there would have to be a limit. But maybe an extra half hour per section would suffice?
I agree you couldnt keep scrutinising over one question for an extended period of time without increasing the liklihood of getting it right. But as it stands, the HPAT exam is placing too much emphasis on time which is not what an aptitude test is about. The fact remains: If you're not suitable for Medicine, you're not suitable for Medicine. Increasing the exam by an hour or an hour and a half should not have that significant of an impact on you're grade. But if you have an aptitude for Medicine and your only issue with the exam is running out of time on questions, then an hour extra could make a huge difference. Do you not agree?
And just incase you return to the arguement of "Doctors need to think fast and make decisions even faster", I'll re-itterate my point: Continuously being placed in situations where you must make decisions/assess a situation quickly will increase your speed....Just incase0 -
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The medical community in Ireland is tiny, even more so given the fact that we have a smaller doctor-patient ratio than the EU average. It's almost guaranteed that a doctor would end up interviewing one of the relatives of his/her colleagues at some stage. That throws objectivity and fairness out the window.
To make it fair you would have to bring in international interviewers with no previous association with the Irish healthcare system.
In regards to your keyboard analogy, itsn't applicable to the HPAT since you're supposed to have not seen the test material before. Ideally, it tests how well you cope with a scenario you're not familiar with.
You get better at typing because you become more accustomed to it. Almost everyone could answer every question on the HPAT correctly if given enough time.
I still cant accept this argument. Why can't they bring over doctors from england?0 -
I still cant accept this argument. Why can't they bring over doctors from england?
Yes or maybe Medical lecturers themselves. Whether they know the applicants or not I seriously doubt that they would accept someone based solely on that fact. Of all people, they would know the kind of person that would succeed in the challenging environemt of a demanding Medical programme. They would not waste their own time by letting 'Jimmy from down the road' into the course for the simple reason that their opinion would be highly diminshed should the applicant fail to live up to the expectations set which come from having the successful interview.0 -
Are the HPAT results yet?0
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I know people who have gotten 600 points, but not offered medicine, which in my opinion is an absolute joke.
I've never seen a HPAT exam paper (although I'd absolutely love to), but it's a damn big improvement on solely granting places based on LC results. I saw a couple of questions from a HPAT sample paper, and... let's just say I wouldn't be a good doctor :pac:0 -
EVen with the HPAT I still think getting into Medicine remains a points race still. If the cap is 480, they should cap it at 480 and then the HPAT would be more 'fair'.0
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No matter what ends up in place to decide Medical places, there is going to be a flaw. Initially, when places were solely based on the L.C, we had the problem of some completely unsuitable people ending up in the course for whatever reason they chose to do it. Now we have the HPAT. Yes it is flawed but IMO it's a lot better than the way it used to be.
With regards to the timing issue, I think the timing is adequate. I completely agree with the idea that when constantly put into pressurised situations you will become more adept at dealing with them but it the HPAT you have to make gut decisions, particularly in Section 2. Some people just dont have that ability and will end up agonising over the question and lose time. That's why I think the timing is sufficient. As a doctor you will eventually have to go with your gut. The HPAT tests that ability.0 -
Are the results out tomorrow??? Is it by email or what??0
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Hey guys
anybody know where you will get the results tomorrow ? Email is it ? and what time ? Thanks !
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