Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Annasopra

Gary4279 wrote: »

20 years ago I would have agreed, because they would have been bullied. But come on, I left school 4 years ago and racism is a thing of the past these days, especially among younger people.

Homophobia is a few years off the mark.

Essentially you are saying then that society should accept racism and homophobia

Gary4279

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Bizarrely this is one issue where a boards thread actually changed my idea on the topic full circle.

The bullying thing - kids don't actually get bullied for being short/fat/black/gay parents/divorced parents etc. They get bullied because a bully is able to intimidate them because they may perhaps lack the confidence or self esteem to stop the bully.

There's a good bit of research showing children of gay male couples do not suffer from things like this, or go on to earn less, or develop problems compared to children of straight parents. Amusingly children of gay female couples tend to do better than children of straight couples under similar criteria

I have no doubt in the reliability of this info. Children of same-sex couple are going to receive a higher quality of care from their parents because they will be 'wanted'.

However, i'd imagine this study took place in America or somewhere a bit more forward thinking than Ireland. Another few years and we'll be level.

Gary4279

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Essentially you are saying then that society should accept racism and homophobia

No, Irish society has always been slow to accepting new ideas, we all know the reasons. FFS, homosexuality was illegal here until 1993.

What i'm saying is that we need to slowly move towards this idea until everyone agrees with it, and the children arn't harmed.

abouttobebanned

Biggins wrote: »

My wedding day best-man was/is gay. He and his partner IN AN INSTANT I would trust completely to adopt my four kids should something happen to my wife and I.
The question doesn't even arise.

There is still an under-current of complete misunderstanding on this issue and a lot of it is closeted bigotry, some of which is disguised in any number of tried to be, more justified ways to advance their stupidity.

Ah, you see now it makes sense. You see Biggins, you're biased. You happen to know of two gay people that you believe would be great parents. That's like saying (loose example of the top of my head) 15 year olds should be allowed to drive cause you know a 15 year old who drives better than most 30 year olds.

The two gay people that you know are not representative of every gay couple, obviously in the same way that one legal 18 year old driver is representative of all 18 year old drivers (Do ya get me?...I may be confusing the issue here slightly)

All I'm saying is that it's PREFERABLE for a child to have a maternal parent and for those that say it doesn't matter, I think are very wrong.

On the subject of should gay men be allowed to adopt, then I believe that all cases should be looked at closely, and individually.

Elba101

Gary4279 wrote: »

Pretty good feeling i'm going to get destroyed for this but here goes...

I'm all for gay people being allowed to get married and have equal rights as straight couples and i'm sure within the next few years this will be achieved.

However, I don't think they should be allowed to adopt children. I just don't think it would be fair on the child to say for example have two fathers, and no mother figure. The child would more than likely be the subject of sever bullying in school.

I also think it could leave the child confused as to how relationships work and asking question as to why he/she has two dads where as everyone else has one mother and one father.

Now I know many will argue that its better for a child to be with a gay couple than in an orphanage but having looked into it a bit there are next to none in Ireland.

I know my argument may seem a bit backward but when I asked myself if I'd like to have had two father I definitely wouldn't have.

I don't understand why the child would be confused. The definition of family is no longer mother, father and 2 children and children should be reared to understand this. By your logic a straight couple can also leave a child confused about how relationships work.

Gay or straight, as long as the child is loved and cared for I don't see the problem.

Biggins

sesna wrote: »

What was that??! Creates his own strawman and then knocks it down. It's clear from that post that Biggins thinks that any opponents to gay child adoption are homophobic and prejudiced. Pointless arguing with someone with such a narrow-minded entrenched position.

Like the Norris thread where you repeatedly ONLY post that you want to twist - once again we see you doing the same pure low-level trolling stupid schite here.
(How many bans/warning have you gotten again in that other thread alone?)

I in my previous post state about bigotry AND people being uneducated/unknowledgeable in this matter - but hey, you once again edit my post only to make others look one way in your yet again- low level trolling fcuking schite.

Your posts NEVER being anything to debates.
Only edited twisted schite and more mental garbage so you can troll more.
Why your ass is not banned permanently is beyond me.

Liam Byrne

Gary4279 wrote: »

I have no doubt in the reliability of this info. Children of same-sex couple are going to receive a higher quality of care from their parents because they will be 'wanted'.

What ?????

If you said this about all adopted children, you might have a point, but the above is absolute rubbish.

Biggins

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Ah, you see now it makes sense. You see Biggins, you're biased...

No, I'm not biased.
I would trust them EQUALLY as I would any other type of couple.
Just because they are gay/lesbian/whatever don't make them out to an an automatic dis-advantge to any kid.

stovelid

Gary4279 wrote: »

Children of same-sex couple are going to receive a higher quality of care from their parents because they will be 'wanted'.

True.

I'm in a hereto relationship and I've been trying to sell my kids on eBay for years.

sesna

Biggins wrote: »

Like the Norris thread where you repeatedly ONLY post that you want to twist - once again we see you doing the same pure low-level trolling stupid schite schite here.
(How many bans/warning have you gotten again in that other thread alone?)

I in my previous post state about bigotry AND people being uneducated in this matter - but hey, you once again edit my post only to make others look one way in your yet again- low level trolling fcuking schite.

Your posts NEVER being anything to debates.
Only edited twisted schite and more mental garbage so you can troll more.
Why your ass is not banned permanently is beyond me.

Emotive outbursts bring nothing to the debate. Try to calm yourself Biggins.

Gary4279

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ?????

If you said this about all adopted children, you might have a point, but the above is absolute rubbish.

I was comparing on average, people adopted by same sex couple and those born naturally to hetrosexual couple, because when obviously when a hetrosexual couple has a child there will be a chance that they didn't want/plan for a child.

Where as an adopted child will be planned/wanted. I didn't include same sex couple adopting as i'd already mentioned that in an earlier post if you read back.

Biggins

sesna wrote: »

Emotive outbursts bring nothing to the debate. Try to calm yourself Biggins.

I will when you end your schite.

dr.bollocko

sesna wrote: »

What was that??! Creates his own strawman and then knocks it down. It's clear from that post that Biggins thinks that any opponents to gay child adoption are homophobic and prejudiced. Pointless arguing with someone with such a narrow-minded entrenched position.

*Unsubscribes from another nonsense thread*

Biggins wrote: »

Like the Norris thread where you repeatedly ONLY post that you want to twist - once again we see you doing the same pure low-level trolling stupid schite here.
(How many bans/warning have you gotten again in that other thread alone?)

I in my previous post state about bigotry AND people being uneducated/unknowledgeable in this matter - but hey, you once again edit my post only to make others look one way in your yet again- low level trolling fcuking schite.

Your posts NEVER being anything to debates.
Only edited twisted schite and more mental garbage so you can troll more.
Why your ass is not banned permanently is beyond me.

sesna wrote: »

Emotive outbursts bring nothing to the debate. Try to calm yourself Biggins.

Biggins wrote: »

I will when you end your schite.

Both banned.
Any more personal stuff will result in yet more bans.
Please report any posts which cross the line.

Gary4279

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Both banned.
Any more personal stuff will result in yet more bans.
Please report any posts which cross the line.

You can't ban 'Biggins'. He's Biggins.

Bloody Nipples

Gary4279 wrote: »

I have no doubt in the reliability of this info. Children of same-sex couple are going to receive a higher quality of care from their parents because they will be 'wanted'.

However, i'd imagine this study took place in America or somewhere a bit more forward thinking than Ireland. Another few years and we'll be level.

It's got nothing to do with being "wanted". Children of lesbian couples are the highest achievers when compared to the children of gay men and heterosexuals.

That's a statistic. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html

On that basis and as you're not homophobic, how can you then say gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
People go on about maternal and paternal influences but a lot of this is based on the fact that the children of single parents do relatively poorly and is caused by under-parenting because the one parent isn't as available as two (not knocking single parents in any way, just mentioning a statistical trend).

Annasopra

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I'm suspicious of this. Are you telling me that a single man can adobt a baby? Can you show me a case where this has happened?

I'm not sure what you are suspicious about. It happens. Get over it.

I_am_LOST

I think the bullying arguement is stupid. As previously stated, kids get bullied for being ginger, fat, tall, short, skinny etc.

My ONLY problem with gay adoption is that it doesn't give the balance of a maternal figure and a fatherly figure. I don't doubt that there are gay couples out there who will love a child unconditionally and be great parents. I am FOR gay adoption but ONLY if preference is given to a mother and father (*awaits homophobic accusations* :rolleyes: ) first.

We have to be selfless when it comes to adoption - this is not about what gay couples or straight couples or whoever WANTS, it's about what is best for the child. And in my opionion (just my opinion), if there were three cases of people who wanted to adopt a particular child (gay couple, straight couple, single female) and they were all shown to be loving individuals, backround checks were all fine, then:

In my opinion, the straight couple should get preference. Next preference should go to the gay couple. And then after that the single parent.

Gary4279

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with being "wanted". Children of lesbian couples are the highest achievers when compared to the children of gay men and heterosexuals.

That's a statistic. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100831091240.htm

On that basis and as you're not homophobic, how can you then say gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
People go on about maternal and paternal influences but a lot of this is based on the fact that the children of single parents do relatively poorly and is caused by under-parenting because the one parent isn't as available as two (not knocking single parents in any way, just mentioning a statistical trend).

No No No, what i'm saying is that I don't think Irish society is ready for this yet. American society is perfectly able to accept this because they are more forward thinking. I have no doubt that a same sex couple would do a good job raising a child, and I have mentioned that above, so your argument does not challenge mine. My argument is sociological, no psychological.

Annasopra

Gary4279 wrote: »

No, Irish society has always been slow to accepting new ideas, we all know the reasons. FFS, homosexuality was illegal here until 1993.

What i'm saying is that we need to slowly move towards this idea until everyone agrees with it, and the children arn't harmed.

You will never have a situation where everyone agrees with it. You are basically saying that some Irish people are homophobic and on that basis we should just accept this and decide adoption policy on it.

TheReverend

I hear the "the children will be bullied" argument come up a lot, this is the fault of people like those who say that, they will tell their children that the kids parents are not normal giving them more ammunition to bully others.

By the same argument we shouldn't allow any one but white Roman Catholics to adopt in this country.

As long as the parents can provide a good home let them adopt

Annasopra

Gary4279 wrote: »

No No No, what i'm saying is that I don't think Irish society is ready for this yet. American society is perfectly able to accept this because they are more forward thinking. I have no doubt that a same sex couple would do a good job raising a child, and I have mentioned that above, so your argument does not challenge mine. My argument is sociological, no psychological.

What sociological theories are you using then?

Gary4279

Johnnymcg wrote: »

You will never have a situation where everyone agrees with it. You are basically saying that some Irish people are homophobic and on that basis we should just accept this and decide adoption policy on it.

No, I'm saying it needs to wait a few more years. These thing take time, eventually attitudes will change. Look at america, 20 years ago gay adoption would have been an alien concept. Now it perfectly fine.

abouttobebanned

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are suspicious about. It happens. Get over it.

This kind of smugness/smartness has more call to be banned than what biggins said tbh.

Bloody Nipples

Gary4279 wrote: »

No No No, what i'm saying is that I don't think Irish society is ready for this yet. American society is perfectly able to accept this because they are more forward thinking. I have no doubt that a same sex couple would do a good job raising a child, and I have mentioned that above, so your argument does not challenge mine. My argument is sociological, no psychological.

Have you seen the South? The Bible Belt? It's not all San Francisco.

abouttobebanned

The gay mod has entered the debate, hence all other opinions from now on are homophopic and redundant.

Thread dead.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Gary4279 wrote: »

I have no doubt in the reliability of this info. Children of same-sex couple are going to receive a higher quality of care from their parents because they will be 'wanted'.

However, i'd imagine this study took place in America or somewhere a bit more forward thinking than Ireland. Another few years and we'll be level.

Yes the studies were on american children, I don't agree with your reasoning about being cared for though. It just seems to me hetero parents aren't going to be inherently better at raising children. The lesbian's having more "successful" children is interesting but I would say its more correlation than causation. Perhaps the type of couple who are able to bring up a child in an openly same sex relationships tend to be types of people who aer socially advantaged in some way.

Gary4279

Johnnymcg wrote: »

What sociological theories are you using then?

One of Anthony Giddens, I'm not going to go into detail but more or less state that society which have been under the influence of religion and have a high dependency ration are often very slow when it comes to accepting new ideas. Not specifically gay adoption but everything.

Ireland and america are two very contrasting societies (City wise) although they may appear similar.

Bloody Nipples

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The gay mod has entered the debate, hence all other opinions from now on are homophopic and redundant.

Thread dead.

I think a thread really dies when people start posting this kind of idiotic crap tbh.

Gary4279

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The gay mod has entered the debate, hence all other opinions from now on are homophopic and redundant.

Thread dead.

Perfect user name. You should also consider 'stupid ****'

Bloody Nipples

And on the topic of "forward thinking America":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

Annasopra

Gary4279 wrote: »

No, I'm saying it needs to wait a few more years. These thing take time, eventually attitudes will change. Look at america, 20 years ago gay adoption would have been an alien concept. Now it perfectly fine.

So actually you agree with it then

abouttobebanned

By Gay Mod, I mean mod of the gay forum.

He came in throwing opinions and accusations all over the place. Predictable really.

Very hard to have a proper debate on a hot topic like this, especially in After Hours.

TheZohanS

Beruthiel wrote: »

If that child is bullied by it's peers, it is because of the ignorance and intolerance they have been taught by their "fantastic, perfect" heterosexual parents....
Oh the ironing....

That's a great point.

With two mams the ironing load is cut in half.

tayto lover

I would say that any couple, either gay or straight, who apply to adopt would have thought over the whole issue prior to applying. Also the Adoption Agency or H.S.E. would have checked out the suitability of any couple applying to adopt. A gay couple would make a great job of looking after a child i would say but if i'm honest i think a man and woman would do a better job as a woman's instinct and motherly nature would be an advantage.

Annasopra

abouttobebanned wrote: »

By Gay Mod, I mean mod of the gay forum.

He came in throwing opinions and accusations all over the place. Predictable really.

Very hard to have a proper debate on a hot topic like this, especially in After Hours.

What is the world coming to? when I was growing up gay people couldn't have opinions. Now they're throwing them around the place.

El Weirdo

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Very hard to have a proper debate on a hot topic like this, especially in After Hours.

Is it? Just because it's AH?

Gary4279

Johnnymcg wrote: »

So actually you agree with it then

Yes, who wouldn't? Other than homophobic morons.

What i'm saying is our society isn't ready for it yet and I don't think it would be fair on say a ten year old boy to be the subject of harassment because his mothers 'are a duuuuurty pair of lezzzzers' if you get me?

philologos

Personally, I think in as far as it is practicable children should be brought up with their biological parents. In the event that this is unable to be fulfilled children should be brought up with an adoptive mother and father.

Mothers and fathers have different influences on kids and it is positive for a child to have a male and a female parent when considering gender roles. So yeah, I'm of the mind that the traditional family is best.

If the law were changed to allow same-sex couples to adopt the law should prefer married couples who are able to provide both a male and female parent over single adoptive parents or same-sex adoptive parents.

Bloody Nipples

Gary4279 wrote: »

Yes, who wouldn't? Other than homophobic morons.

What i'm saying is our society isn't ready for it yet and I don't think it would be fair on say a ten year old boy to be the subject of harassment because his mothers 'are a duuuuurty pair of lezzzzers' if you get me?

But how do you normalise it with out first allowing it?

CreepingDeath

Look what happens when gays "adopt" Pets... they dress them up in gay pet outfits and turn Poodles into fashion accessories.

abouttobebanned

Johnnymcg wrote: »

What is the world coming to? when I was growing up gay people couldn't have opinions. Now they're throwing them around the place.

Yeah, I didn't explain myself very well there. Apologies.

Da Shins Kelly

Being raised by heterosexual parents doesn't automatically mean that someone will be "normal". Likewise, being raised by homosexuals doesn't mean that someone will be "abnormal". What makes people functioning members of society is how they are raised - i.e values, morals, love, attention, care. Homosexuals are perfectly capable of providing for children on an emotional and physical level, as much as any heterosexual couple. And saying that children raised by a homosexual couple will be without maternal influence is just ridiculous. Homosexuals don't live in a completely different world to heterosexuals where members of the opposite sex don't exist. These people have mothers, sisters, girl friends, some of them even have daughters of their own from previous relationships. These people are perfectly able of providing a female influence in the life of a child raised by two gay men. And anyway, who decides what is "normal"? The idea of "normal" is different to everyone.

Also, as regards the bullying thing, that is an attitude that needs to be addressed to society at large. I know I would never, ever tolerate my child giving sh*t to another child on the basis of sexual orientation, or if that child had two gay parents. And saying that gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt because of other people's bad parenting is not a valid reason. It's parents who have bad attitudes and pass it on to their children. Children don't just automatically know how to pick on other kids; it's learned behaviour.

People are never going to be fully comfortable with homosexuals unless we change our attitudes, and the only way to do that is to stop acting as if there's something wrong with it and raise our own children to judge people on the strength of their characters rather than their sexual orientation.

dr.bollocko

abouttobebanned wrote: »

This kind of smugness/smartness has more call to be banned than what biggins said tbh.

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The gay mod has entered the debate, hence all other opinions from now on are homophopic and redundant.

Thread dead.

abouttobebanned wrote: »

By Gay Mod, I mean mod of the gay forum.

He came in throwing opinions and accusations all over the place. Predictable really.

Very hard to have a proper debate on a hot topic like this, especially in After Hours.

Banned.
Ignoring mod warning. Trolling / flaming.

Gary4279 wrote: »

Perfect user name. You should also consider 'stupid ****'

Banned. Insulting other posters.

That's now 4 from this thread.
Make it personal / get overly personal and you will be banned.
We will now re-open however if things continue in this fashion I would expect a lock soon. And probably more bans.

HellFireClub

^^^ Shooting fish in a barrell!

OldGoat

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I'm suspicious of this. Are you telling me that a single man can adobt a baby? Can you show me a case where this has happened?

Gary4279 wrote: »

No he can not.

Yes, he can. I watched an interview of a single man and his adoptive son on TV a few weeks ago. (ITV Daybreak) I can't search for the link now but it does exist.

However, here is an older example to 3 different fathers all who adopt or foster...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article2124934.ece

Another case here...
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article5134011.ece

EDIT: Posted this before reading to the end of the thread. Apologies if it's redundant.

madmammy

My husband (Biggins) and I wish to say the following:

We have a daughter that is suffering from Scoliosis (non-curable spinal dis-order).
Because of that, she has to wear all the time a body cast on her.
Now we know in our heart and soul that kids in school by their nature and by gang mentality, will find something to pick on other kids about.

Our point is that be it gay parents or any other reason (and its depressingly expected that someone will in time go out of their way to take the pee out of our daughter in school due to her condition, its sadly inevitable), bullying will go on - and if its not over gay parents, the thugs and bullies of this world will find another reason.

That don't make it right, it just means that those with less kop-on will find any stupid reason they can to express dominance over another.
Gay parents will just be one more reason for the bullies of this world.
There are many other reasons before this and there will be many after it.

The best we can do is stop the bullying in all its forms and underlying reasons - and cope with the next reason when it comes alone thereafter.

Bullies will always find a reason. If its not one reason, it will be another.

NuMarvel

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Look what happens when gays "adopt" Pets... they dress them up in gay pet outfits and turn Poodles into fashion accessories.

True that. Heteros would never stoop to such crass or demeaning behaviour...

sensibleken

NuMarvel wrote: »

True that. Heteros would never stoop to such crass or demeaning behaviour...

Kill it!!!!!

(I mean the taller dog)

Logical Fallacy

Gary4279 wrote: »

You can say that now but sadly children will care what their peers say to them, its how we mature.

It's weird because if we had developed as a society via this ideal then we would be ****ed. Schools in America would never have integrated, boys and girls would never be in the same school at all, women wouldn't have the vote etc etc etc

Social change comes with a bit of risk attached.

Spread

Bringing up children is a serious and rewarding experience. It is real life - not pretend life. Heterosexual couples are real parents - same sex couples are pretend parents. Well, at least one of them anyway.

Just thought I'd get my view in before this is locked.