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NO NO NO Schools have to include religion classes, forum told

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    #302
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    philologos wrote: »
    What questions haven't I answered in this thread? - If I've answered them I'll show you where I've answered them already. If I haven't I'll admit I haven't.
    I wouldn't mind hearing your response to this one. :)


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    #303
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Dades wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind hearing your response to this one. :)

    Please Philologos?


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    #304
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    What questions haven't I answered in this thread?
    Any of these:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72963848&postcount=17
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72964709&postcount=27
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72970267&postcount=38
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73015648&postcount=260

    The first three are the most important.

    BTW, saying that there should be alternatives is not an answer. We both agree that there should be, but the state is not going to build one school for each religious or non-religious viewpoint.

    I'm looking for your view on what can happen, given where the state is and what it can realistically do.

    .


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    #305
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,776 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    it is in the Constitution that the state shall provide ... schools with a religous ethos

    Looking at article 42, I dont see where it says that?


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    #306
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Dades wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind hearing your response to this one. :)

    I answered that one earlier in the thread. I don't believe it is necessary, I do believe it makes the education system better if there is choice for parents.


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    #307
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    philologos wrote: »
    Dades wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind hearing your response to this one. :)

    I answered that one earlier in the thread. I don't believe it is necessary, I do believe it makes the education system better if there is choice for parents.

    "What can a faith school offer that time outside school can't?"
    "I don't believe it is necessary."

    :confused:


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    #308
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Looking at article 42, I dont see where it says that?


    I have just had a quick look at a summary of article 42, and there is a lot there about schools and religion in schools. It is not the same source as I came across a few days ago but the thread of it is very similar.


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    #309
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    Without researching the exact section and wording, it is in the Constitution that the state shall provide education to children and provide schools with a religous ethos, and that this will be the case unless the people want change.
    No.

    The article in the Constitution says that the state "State shall provide for free primary education [...]". This is important, since the state is required to pay for education, but not necessarily control the organizations which run the schools. Which is one of the reasons why we find the church controlling, but not paying for the current system.

    The Constitution also requires the state to provide "other educational facilities with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation." But only so long as the "public good" requires it.

    This is a cop-out clause which permits the state to hand over control of the schools to religious organizations, have no control over the admissions policies which the religious organizations employ, and then abandon anybody who disagrees with the religious organizations.


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    #310
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    saying that there should be alternatives is not an answer.
    philologos wrote: »
    I do believe it makes the education system better if there is choice for parents.
    /robin wins a bet with himself.


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    #311
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    robindch wrote: »
    /robin wins a bet with himself.

    :o I read that as "robin wet with himself".


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    #312
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    robindch wrote: »
    No.


    The Constitution also requires the state to provide "other educational facilities with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation." But only so long as the "public good" requires it.

    This is a cop-out clause which permits the state to hand over control of the schools to religious organizations, have no control over the admissions policies which the religious organizations employ, and then abandon anybody who disagrees with the religious organizations.


    Article 44 an Analysis
    Sourced online

    This article means that there may not be discrimination between the different denominations and that children have the right to attend state aided schools without attending religious instruction. In practice, certain time periods may be set aside for religious instruction and the parents have a right to withdraw the child at these times. However, the nature of the curriculum is such that there is not generally a rigid divide between subjects and the school ethos tends to pervade all subjects.
    It has been argued that the article means that a child may not be refused access to a publicly funded school on the basis of the child's religious beliefs.

    I have said many times before that as a parent, I have yet to encounter religous discrimination locally in any school. Maybe there was a time in the past, but that would have been contrary to Article 44. Really I cant imagine anything more than isolated issues arising around the country, and they should not occur.

    As to what the forum should do, a question I have posed a few times since yesterday and nobody has really answered it is: if you could influence the forum what would you advise them to do?


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    #313
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    As to what the forum should do, a question I have posed a few times since yesterday and nobody has really answered it is: if you could influence the forum what would you advise them to do?

    Secular education with a religion subject covering world religions with no bias


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    #314
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    "What can a faith school offer that time outside school can't?"
    "I don't believe it is necessary."

    Some parents think it is better in school time that their children for a small portion of time in the day (~30 minutes by Dept of Education recommendation) receive some form of introduction to Christianity or other faiths. I don't think that's really asking all that much.

    It could be done outside, but I don't see what's so overwhelmingly wrong with doing it in school.

    A parent could technically speak Irish with their children outside of school time, but they want their children to go to a Gaelscoil. What's wrong with that? In my view of it absolutely nothing.

    Again. Show me the questions I haven't answered multiple times in this thread because I'm tired of the accusation really. I don't see any point in having this discussion other than passing links back and forward if this is the case.


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    #315
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    philologos wrote: »
    Some parents think it is better in school time that their children for a small portion of time in the day (~30 minutes by Dept of Education recommendation) receive some form of introduction to Christianity or other faiths. I don't think that's really asking all that much.
    .

    Introduction is one thing and indoctrination is another


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    #316
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    As to what the forum should do, a question I have posed a few times since yesterday and nobody has really answered it is: if you could influence the forum what would you advise them to do?
    Any school can offer as much religious instruction or preparation as they please.

    After 3 o'clock.


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    #317
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Introduction is one thing and indoctrination is another

    bluewolf: I agree actually. I don't believe the principle of faith schools is to indoctrinate. If people were genuinely ramming X, Y and Z ideas down peoples throats I'd have issue. People need time. I wouldn't expect a full personal commitment to any form of religious belief at until at least late teenage years / early twenties.

    If it was intended to be indoctrination a pretty poor job of indoctrination was done in my case. Rather it is simply to introduce the basics and the moral principles that go along with it so at a later date you can do more research and decide if it is for you. At least basing it on my own experience of spending several years trying to work it out.

    Most of what I know of Christianity is down to personal research. The last two years of secondary school being the time when that happened for me. Even though it was only 2 years that I really appreciated the ethos of the schools I went to I still appreciate it because it gave me the environment to think about it for myself.


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    #318
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    philologos wrote: »
    bluewolf: I agree actually. I don't believe the principle of faith schools is to indoctrinate. If people were genuinely ramming X, Y and Z ideas down peoples throats I'd have issue. People need time. I wouldn't expect a full personal commitment to any form of religious belief at until at least late teenage years / early twenties.

    If it was intended to be indoctrination a pretty poor job of indoctrination was done in my case. Rather it is simply to introduce the basics and the moral principles that go along with it so at a later date you can do more research and decide if it is for you. At least basing it on my own experience of spending several years trying to work it out.
    .

    It introduces them as fact. Not "people believe xyz" but that jesus did do xyz and that all of is it fact. There is the difference and it doesn't matter how poorly they do it (for which there is evidence enough judging by the amount of catholics who insist they are catholic but don't know half the requirements of the church).


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    #319
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It introduces them as fact. Not "people believe xyz" but that jesus did do xyz and that all of is it fact. There is the difference and it doesn't matter how poorly they do it (for which there is evidence enough judging by the amount of catholics who insist they are catholic but don't know half the requirements of the church).

    Most of what we would have learned in school was the basic moral message that one could understand from a given parable such as the Parable of the Good Samaritan or the Parable of the Talents, or something along such lines. At the start of the day we would have said the Lord's prayer.

    Something similar in secondary school. We had 20 minutes chapel in the morning, a reading was read and the chaplain would talk for about 10 minutes about it. Nothing did damage or prevented critical thought, or anything else. Far from it actually. A few of the teachers were non-believers so it wasn't as if the school regarded irreligion as anathema. We learned about atheism and agnosticism and other religious beliefs in Leaving Cert and Junior Cert RE.


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    #320
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    philologos wrote: »
    Some parents think it is better in school time that their children for a small portion of time in the day (~30 minutes by Dept of Education recommendation) receive some form of introduction to Christianity or other faiths.
    Some parents? But why do they think this? I suspect those parents that think it's "better" within school hours are those that enjoy the convenience of not having to put any effort into introducing the child to their supposed religion.
    philologos wrote: »
    I don't think that's really asking all that much.

    It could be done outside, but I don't see what's so overwhelmingly wrong with doing it in school.
    Can't you see that all the issues of providing schools for those of different faiths or none could be solved by simply moving the RE blocks out of normal school hours?

    This whole process could be put to bed.


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    #321
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It introduces them as fact. Not "people believe xyz" but that jesus did do xyz and that all of is it fact. There is the difference and it doesn't matter how poorly they do it (for which there is evidence enough judging by the amount of catholics who insist they are catholic but don't know half the requirements of the church).



    I think the indoctrination must have been pretty weak.....just look at the amount of atheists around!:D


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    #322
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    philologos wrote: »
    Rather it is simply to introduce the basics and the moral principles that go along with it so at a later date you can do more research and decide if it is for you.

    Could a parent or religious minister not do this outside of school hours?:confused:


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    #323
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Could a parent or religious minister not do this outside of school hours?:confused:

    I've answered that already in all fairness Malty T. I believe they could, but that parents should have the choice.


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    #324
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    I think the indoctrination must have been pretty weak.....just look at the amount of atheists around!:D

    What only 20% of the Irish population is non Catholic? I'd count that as a pretty darn successful indoctrination.


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    #325
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    Malty_T wrote: »
    What only 20% of the Irish population is non Catholic? I'd count that as a pretty darn successful indoctrination.


    There will always be a few hardliners who escape the fire and brimstone tactics! :pac:


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    #326
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    There will always be a few hardliners who escape the fire and brimstone tactics! :pac:

    ???:confused:


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    #327
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    Malty_T wrote: »
    ???:confused:


    as its past 6 , the line was only meant as a bit of gas!


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    #328
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Surely in a free society there should not any restrictions on how people worship and how they are educated in their faith?

    I don't care what fairy tales people choose to believe, that is their own business.

    Why would you introduce a child to a subject as ridiculous as religion in a school?, why not wait until they have finished college before subjecting them to irritational nonsense.

    How can a child differenciate between fact and fiction.
    philologos wrote: »

    2. Societal secularism where society expresses a disregard of faith.

    What % of our population is actually full blown practising catholic. Is it more than 20%.
    Mistress 69 wrote: »

    Would you advise the forum to to remove religous ethos from ALL schools in the state?

    Yes
    BluntGuy wrote: »

    As has been stated numerous times by other posters, the job of a state-funded school is to educate children. It is not their job to reinforce my or anyone else's particular set of beliefs - be they religious, non-religious etc.
    +1
    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    In reply to Blunt Guy & Dades
    Without researching the exact section and wording, it is in the Constitution that the state shall provide education to children and provide schools with a religous ethos,

    Then we need to change the constitution.

    philologos wrote: »
    bluewolf: I agree actually. I don't believe the principle of faith schools is to indoctrinate.

    Whats the point then?

    What age do they need to get into kids heads at to have the most impact.


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    #329
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Mistress 69 wrote: »
    as its past 6 , the line was only meant as a bit of gas!

    confused-face.jpg


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    #330
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    philologos wrote: »
    I've answered that already in all fairness Malty T. I believe they could, but that parents should have the choice.

    NO

    Children should have the choice


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    #331
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    Malty_T wrote: »
    confused-face.jpg
    OK! Sense of humour gone over your head what can I say


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