NO NO NO Schools have to include religion classes, forum told

ShooterSF

philologos wrote: »

Of course it's a stretch. One can very easily learn about an ethical system and reject it. Nothing is precluding questioning or skeptical thought being applied to this. In fact I would encourage that because it is generally by questioning and skeptical enquiry that one determines if something is worthwhile. It's pretty much the reason why I'm here on this forum arguing from the position I do.

But school kids AREN'T taught critical thinking. Today Miss Stephenson will teach Jimmy that 4 times 4 is 16 and there are 60 minutes in an hour. After lunch she will teach him that God created Adam and Eve. No distinction is made by the teacher and the child unless his parents actively tell him otherwise will see no reason for his teacher to lie to him.

philologos

I wasn't explicitly taught critical thinking, it came naturally. As I suspect it did for you.

CerebralCortex

philologos wrote: »

I wasn't explicitly taught critical thinking, it came naturally. As I suspect it did for you.

Explain to me exactly how critical thinking comes naturally? Cognitive biases would suggest otherwise unless you're not subject to them?

crucamim

Barrington wrote: »

Discrimination and lack of equal rights for all still not a good enough reason?

In a Catholic school non-Catholics have no right to equality with Catholics. In Croke Park, rugby players have no right to equality with gaelic footballers. In your home, I have no right to equality with you.
Please respect private property.

philologos

CerebralCortex: It's as easy for me as saying that if something looks or sounds fishy it produces a curiosity I'll generally ask why someone thinks X or Y about something or what basis they have for saying it.

I wasn't explicitly taught this but rather it is just intuitively how I deal with things.

Delirium

crucamim wrote: »

In a Catholic school non-Catholics have no right to equality with Catholics. In Croke Park, rugby players have no right to equality with gaelic footballers. In your home, I have no right to equality with you.
Please respect private property.

You're saying a GAA fan can't attend/play rugby and vice versa?

CerebralCortex

philologos wrote: »

CerebralCortex: It's as easy for me as saying that if something looks or sounds fishy it produces a curiosity I'll generally ask why someone thinks X or Y about something or what basis they have for saying it.

I wasn't explicitly taught this but rather it is just intuitively how I deal with things.

Doesn't answer how you protect against bias. Intuition/fishiness are as useful as bike to fish when trying trying to be critical.

crucamim

bluewolf wrote: »

"They DO have a choice. They have churches up and down the country, a synagogue, and some mosques. Plenty of places for them to send the kids to learn about their own personal beliefs if they don't want to sit down with the child themselves."

And the Catholic church owns schools which can be used to educate the children of practising Catholics.

"You still have not explained why religious instruction cannot be done outside school hours"

It could be done out of school hours but that would not be convenient. More important, doing so would not keep Catholic children safe from anti-Catholics. I would be happy enough if there were an end to religious classes in schools - provided that Catholic children are segregated from anti-Catholics. It is not the teaching of religion which keeps Catholic children safe, it is the segregation which provides the security.

crucamim

koth wrote: »

You're saying a GAA fan can't attend/play rugby and vice versa?

Not in a ground owned by the GAA without the permission for the GAA.

CerebralCortex

crucamim wrote: »

bluewolf wrote: »

"They DO have a choice. They have churches up and down the country, a synagogue, and some mosques. Plenty of places for them to send the kids to learn about their own personal beliefs if they don't want to sit down with the child themselves."

And the Catholic church owns schools which can be used to educate the children of practising Catholics.

"You still have not explained why religious instruction cannot be done outside school hours"

It could be done out of school hours but that would not be convenient. More important, doing so would not keep Catholic children safe from anti-Catholics. I would be happy enough if there were an end to religious classes in schools - provided that Catholic children are segregated from anti-Catholics. It is not the teaching of religion which keeps Catholic children safe, it is the segregation which provides the security.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Doesn't answer how you protect against bias. Intuition/fishiness are as useful as bike to fish when trying trying to be critical.

That's largely how I've protected myself against bias. If something seems odd or surprising probe into it. If it doesn't and if it seems to make sense that's something else as far as I see it.

You didn't answer my question though. Where did you learn this? Or was it something you had already? I suspect the latter rather than the former.

One of the most interesting things I've read about bias is the first book of Descartes' Meditations where he talks about reinvestigating everything he was informed of in his youth. I believe for the vast majority of people this is what ultimately happens they just mightn't come to the same conclusions as you do.

Delirium

crucamim wrote: »

Not in a ground owned by the GAA without the permission for the GAA.

I've never seen the ushers at an event for either sport quiz everyone entering to see if they followed teams in the other sport.

You're clearly talking nonsense.

CerebralCortex

philologos wrote: »

That's largely how one does it. If something seems odd or surprising probe into it. If it doesn't and if it seems to make sense that's something else as far as I see it.

You didn't answer my question though. Where did you learn this? Or was it something you had already? I suspect the latter rather than the former.

Oh in school and through education and to sharpen the skill arguing with people like you. Come on when I was 15 I used to think X-Men was an accurate portrail of the effects of the evolutionary process :pac: I had a certain amount but unless I was introduced to science I could probably believe anything. So no it's something I've had to develop carefully. Intuitions may have been a starting point, but I soon learned that they are evolved for protection against predators and the location of food, and terribly inaccurate. Do you trust you intuitions? I don't.

philologos

crucamim wrote: »

It could be done out of school hours but that would not be convenient. More important, doing so would not keep Catholic children safe from anti-Catholics. I would be happy enough if there were an end to religious classes in schools - provided that Catholic children are segregated from anti-Catholics. It is not the teaching of religion which keeps Catholic children safe, it is the segregation which provides the security.

Non-Catholics still go to school with Catholics in RCC schools. I think that having non-RCC friends could be beneficial. It's hysteria, but there's hysteria amongst some on the other side as well in that people think that teachers who have a personal faith are out to manipulate their children.

CerebralCortex

philologos wrote: »

Non-Catholics still go to school with Catholics in RCC schools. I think that having non-RCC friends could be beneficial. It's hysteria, but there's hysteria amongst some on the other side as well in that people think that teachers who have a personal faith are out to manipulate their children.

They are if they work in the same faith school.

crucamim

robindch wrote: »

"What has been said already -- kids or their parents being frozen out because parents don't want their kids being involved with the religious rituals mandated by the religious organizations which control the school."

I notice your dishonest use of the phrase "religious organisations which control the school". The proper phrase is "religious organisations which own the school."

If you do not want your child contaminated by Catholicism, why did you send him/her to a Catholic school? If you do not like getting wet, why jump into the lake? Why should a Catholic school stop being a Catholic school just because you and your spose send your child to it? Did the authorities of the Catholic school promise that, if you sent your child to them, they would suppress all manifestations of Catholicism in the school?

"For example -- last year, I was made feel like a complete twat when I asked the head mistress at my kid's pre-school why my kid suddenly started doing something like praying one evening, having made it politely but firmly clear to the school at the start of the year that neither myself nor the missus wanted our kid interacting with religion in any way."

Did you offer to send an adult to supervise your child during the periods when he/she was excluded from the classroom lest he/she be contaminated by Catholicism? Why should the staff of a Catholic school be inconvenienced just because a non-Catholic has infiltrated his child into a Catholic school?

CerebralCortex

@Crucamin
[QUOTE=robindch;73036970] Persons post [/QUOTE]

Any questions?

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Oh in school and through education and to sharpen the skill arguing with people like you. Come on when I was 15 I used to think X-Men was an accurate portrail of the effects of the evolutionary process :pac: I had a certain amount but unless I was introduced to science I could probably believe anything. So no it's something I've had to develop carefully. Intuitions may have been a starting point, but I soon learned that they are evolved for protection against predators and the location of food, and terribly inaccurate. Do you trust you intuitions? I don't.

Are you telling me that when you were 15 that you didn't have the notion of distinguishing between fact and fiction?

Surely if you found something strange, interesting or peculiar that would lead to to research it by some means?

CerebralCortex

philologos wrote: »

Are you telling me that when you were 15 that you didn't have the notion of distinguishing between fact and fiction?

Surely if you found something strange, interesting or peculiar that would lead to to research it by some means?

Oh I did but very limited. Intuitions have lead me to very useless beliefs throughout my life. Thoughts and intuitions are not facts or truths! Very valuable to know.

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

They are if they work in the same faith school.

That would lead me to see your opinion as no less hysterical than crucamim's.

manipulation - exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage; "his manipulation of his friends was scandalous"

I have to yet to see what is shrewd or devious about teachers in a faith school. Indeed I've yet to see how any of this is to their own advantage either apart from doing their job.

crucamim

bluewolf wrote: »

let them pay tithes and have the churches/mosques do it instead

Let secularists establish and finance their own schools.

Delirium

philologos wrote: »

That would lead me to see your opinion as no less hysterical than crucamim's.

And if people can back up CC's statement with personal experience of a teacher sermonising in class?

CerebralCortex

crucamim wrote: »

Let secularists establish and finance their own schools.

No, just have the government provide a human right, which is the right to education regardless of faith.

"I'd buy that for a dollar!" - Mr. Robocop Dude

philologos

koth wrote: »

And if people can back up CC's statement with personal experience of a teacher sermonising in class?

If a school goes beyond the recommended time by the Dept of Education for doing this in I'd suggest reporting it.

A lot of this stuff can be discerned from simply asking ones child about what they learned today or how their day was.

I still think to say this as a general norm about faith schools is hysteria.

crucamim

philologos wrote: »

"Non-Catholics still go to school with Catholics in RCC schools."

Unfortunately, some do. Hence my hopes that secularists, agnostics, Protestants, Muslims, communists etc will establish their own schools and give these non-Catholics an alternative to the Catholic school.

"I think that having non-RCC friends could be beneficial."

I notice your use of the word "could".

"It's hysteria, but there's hysteria amongst some on the other side as well in that people think that teachers who have a personal faith are out to manipulate their children."

Secularists have a right to their fears just as we Catholics have a right to our fears. Secularists should be permitted and assisted to establish their own schools. They must not be permitted to hi-jack ours.

CerebralCortex

crucamim wrote: »

[QU=philologos;73041776]

"Non-Catholics still go to school with Catholics in RCC schools."

Unfortunately, some do. Hence my hopes that secularists, agnostics, Protestants, Muslims, communists etc will establish their own schools and give these non-Catholics an alternative to the Catholic school.

"I think that having non-RCC friends could be beneficial."

I notice your use of the word "could".

"It's hysteria, but there's hysteria amongst some on the other side as well in that people think that teachers who have a personal faith are out to manipulate their children."

Secularists have a right to their fears just as we Catholics have a right to our fears. Secularists should be permitted and assisted to establish their own schools. They must not be permitted to hi-jack ours.

Learn to quote dude!! Srsly!
You probably think Ireland is and should remain a Catholic country?

crucamim

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No, just have the government provide a human right, which is the right to education regardless of faith.

"I'd buy that for a dollar!" - Mr. Robocop Dude

We Catholics are human and Catholic children have a human right to education in safety from anti-Catholic aggression. And the Catholic Church has a legal right to control the schools which it owns.

Thanks for posting here, crucamim. Like others on this forum--J C and dead one, to name two--your posting here does more to harm whatever cause you might have than it does to help it.

I'm extremely thankful that those in power, those who hold a position to make decisions regarding our schools and our education system, do not think like you. If people who thought like you ran our country then we would be in a sorry, sorry state of affairs.

crucamim

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Learn to quote dude!! Srsly!
You probably think Ireland is and should remain a Catholic country?

Catholic schools should remain Catholic schools.

robindch

philologos wrote: »

One of the most interesting things I've read about bias is the first book of Descartes' Meditations where he talks about reinvestigating everything he was informed of in his youth. I believe for the vast majority of people this is what ultimately happens they just mightn't come to the same conclusions as you do.

Unfortunately, Descartes was not a universally critical thinker and using a criterion such as intuition or 'fishiness' concerning facts rather than processes, as CerebralCortex points out, is an extremely crap basis -- arguably the worst -- upon which to place one's critical faculties.

.