NO NO NO Schools have to include religion classes, forum told

crucamim

koth wrote: »

no it doesn't. i want all kids to be free from religious indoctrination, this also means i oppose the idea of a teacher instructing kids that the RCC is an evil organisation.
so your statement is clearly false.

I'm from a catholic family, with Catholic relatives and nearly all my friends are Catholic. not one of them support a sectarian school system.

I am glad that you oppose teachers making anti-Catholic statements to their Catholic pupils. How can you prevent this happening to Catholic children if the Catholic Church does not control the school in which the Catholic children are being taught?

If your Catholic relations and friends do not approve of a sectarian school system, they would probably be wise to send their children to non-religious schools. I recommend Educate Together schools for your relations and friends.

crucamim.

I asked a similar question to this earlier but you must have missed it.

The nearest Educate Together school to me is about 40 odd miles away. All of the schools in my local area are Catholic schools.

If I want to send my hypothetical child to school, without a baptism, should I have to commute 80 odd miles daily to get to the nearest secular school? Is that fair?

crucamim

Dades wrote: »

Will these people be subject to occasional raids on their houses for contraceptives and the like?

No, a personal life is private so long as it remains provate. If it become public knowledge, that would be a different matter as it would undermine the Catholicism of the school.

If you were the Chief Executive of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, it would be quite all right for you to privately believe that teachers are pampered overpaid layabouts. If, however you were to publically express such an opinion, you should be sacked. Such public conduct would be incompatible with your position with the INTO.

crucamim

gvn wrote: »

crucamim.

I asked a similar question to this earlier but you must have missed it.

The nearest Educate Together school to me is about 40 odd miles away. All of the schools in my local area are Catholic schools.

If I want to send my hypothetical child to school, without a baptism, should I have to commute 80 odd miles daily to get to the nearest secular school? Is that fair?

Yes, it is fair - if you are not willing to re-locate to a place where there is a secular school and are not willing to gang up with other secularists to establish a secular school in your locality. I see no reason why a Catholic school should cease to be a Catholic school just because some people in the locality are not Catholics.

Delirium

crucamim wrote: »

I am glad that you oppose teachers making anti-Catholic statements to their Catholic pupils. How can you prevent this happening to Catholic children if the Catholic Church does not control the school in which the Catholic children are being taught?

A code of conduct for all schools. No religious instruction, regards of what religious category a teacher is. Secular school does the job, no need for faith schools.

If your Catholic relations and friends do not approve of a sectarian school system, they would probably be wise to send their children to non-religious schools. I recommend Educate Together schools for your relations and friends.

None are near there homes and if you had control of the system, they wouldn't be allowed through the doors of the local school.

All the more reason for secular schools to be the way to go with public schools.

getz

crucamim wrote: »

Yes, I want the right of parental choice to be respected. Catholic schools should have an unqualified right to sack any teacher who is not a practising Catholic and to reject any child whose parents are not practising Catholics.

you are giving the perfect reason why religion should not be in state schools,i would expect that kind of comment in a third world country,ireland is in breach of EU law,

crucamim

koth wrote: »

A code of conduct for all schools. No religious instruction, regards of what religious category a teacher is. Secular school does the job, no need for faith schools.

Unfortunately, it does not work. There are some anti-Catholics who just cannot keep their anti-Catholic bigotry to themselves. The only way to protect Catholic children and teachers from anti-Catholics is to have Catholic schools exclusively for Catholics.

robindch

crucamim wrote: »

I see no reason why a Catholic school should cease to be a Catholic school just because some people in the locality are not Catholics.

Still wondering how a school can be catholic...

How exactly does a school eat the biscuit that the priest hands out at half-time during mass? And does the school have to go to mass every week like regular flesh-and-blood catholics? Or can it skip that if the school has -- mirabile dictu -- a church attached to it.

crucamim

getz wrote: »

you are giving the perfect reason why religion should not be in state schools,i would expect that kind of comment in a third world country,ireland is in breach of EU law,

I agree that religion should not be in State schools. But the Catholic religion should be in Catholic schools.

Ireland is not in breach of EU law. The EU has no authority over education although certain aggressive secularists have been trying to use EU employment law to undermine the right of Catholics to have their own schools.

Delirium

crucamim wrote: »

Unfortunately, it does not work. There are some anti-Catholics who just cannot keep their anti-Catholic bigotry to themselves. The only way to protect Catholic children and teachers from anti-Catholics is to have Catholic schools exclusively for Catholics.

Where exactly have these teachers being doing as you say? If they're teaching currently, then it would be in a catholic school, so your argument for sectarian schools doesn't resolve your problem.

And moreover, I think it has no basis in reality.

robindch

crucamim wrote: »

There are some anti-Catholics who just cannot keep their anti-Catholic bigotry to themselves. The only way to protect Catholic children and teachers from anti-Catholics is to have Catholic schools exclusively for Catholics.

If this is how you interact with non-catholics in real life, then, for the good of all concerned, I think you probably should stay well away from people who don't share your religious beliefs.

Penn

crucamim wrote: »

Unfortunately, it does not work. There are some anti-Catholics who just cannot keep their anti-Catholic bigotry to themselves. The only way to protect Catholic children and teachers from anti-Catholics is to have Catholic schools exclusively for Catholics.

Maybe you'd like a separate Catholic police force then? Or Catholic doctors and nurses in special Catholic hospitals? Or maybe, just maybe, you could realise that this isn't your country. You want a Catholic school with Catholic teachers which only allows Catholic children? Pay for it with Catholic money and not State money.

getz

crucamim wrote: »

I agree that religion should not be in State schools. But the Catholic religion should be in Catholic schools.

Ireland is not in breach of EU law. The EU has no authority over education although certain aggressive secularists have been trying to use EU employment law to undermine the right of Catholics to have their own schools.

are you saying you cannot have catholic schools in ireland that should not take in non catholic children or non catholic teachers ?.and why ?.it works very well in britain,any faith school that takes the tax payers money/grants has to have a catchment of children for other faiths,and any teaching jobs must not be non discriminating,very soon ireland is going to get progressively more multicultural, it would be bad for the country to be seen being pulled through the european courts,and even worse for the irish catholic church, if you want your children to not mix with non catholics,send them to private schools that dont use taxpayers money

crucamim

koth wrote: »

Where exactly have these teachers being doing as you say? If they're teaching currently, then it would be in a catholic school, so your argument for sectarian schools doesn't resolve your problem.

And moreover, I think it has no basis in reality.

You seem to be insinuating that I am a liar.

crucamim

robindch wrote: »

If this is how you interact with non-catholics in real life, then, for the good of all concerned, I think you probably should stay well away from people who don't share your religious beliefs.

I agree with you.

crucamim

Barrington wrote: »

Maybe you'd like a separate Catholic police force then? Or Catholic doctors and nurses in special Catholic hospitals? Or maybe, just maybe, you could realise that this isn't your country. You want a Catholic school with Catholic teachers which only allows Catholic children? Pay for it with Catholic money and not State money.

I want all those things. And I want those services for Catholics financed by the taxpayers to the same extent as those services for non-Catholics are financed by the taxpayer.

Delirium

crucamim wrote: »

You seem to be insinuating that I am a liar.

I can only work with what you post. You claim that there are school teachers out there spending time in class speaking unfavourably of the Catholic church.

So far you've basically said that non-Catholic teachers are anti-Catholic teachers. Thats false, so forgive me if I question the possibility that your statement might be coloured by your sectarian viewpoint.

crucamim

getz wrote: »

it works very well in britain,any faith school that takes the tax payers money/grants has to have a catchment of children for other faiths,and any teaching jobs must not be non discriminating

What you state is not true for England, Wales and Scotland. And it is even less true for that part of the UK called "Northern Ireland". In Northern Ireland schools owned by the State are allowed to discriminate when taking on teachers. And they do.

getz

one thing irish parents have to realize is that ireland receives large EU grants for its education systems,do you believe that would still receive it,if it was found to be used to help discriminate against children on religious grounds.

Tordelback

Malty_T wrote: »

Except now they're not actually Catholics any more this is a pretty good representative view of so-called Irish Catholics today.

Hmmm, interviewing predominantly late teens/early 20s people outside Trinity College... perhaps not the most representative sampling strategy ever devised.

I'm always amazed at how people I knew when we were that age had those very attitudes, but as the years go by in the inevitable facts of bereavement, marriage, children seem to rekindle their ties with, and even faith in, the church. It obviously doesn't work on everyone (and has only hardened my heart against religious belief), but I suspect interviewing a slightly less collegey cohort might have produced different answers there.

crucamim

getz wrote: »

very soon ireland is going to get progressively more multicultural, it would be bad for the country to be seen being pulled through the european courts,and even worse for the irish catholic church, if you want your children to not mix with non catholics,send them to private schools that dont use taxpayers money

Why should Catholic lose the right to be Catholics just because the country has become more multicultural?

You seem to be insinuating that wealthy Catholics who can afford private schools have a right to keep their children safe while poor Catholics who cannot afford private schools have no such rights. Are you a snob?

If the European Convention of Human Right (ECHR) does not repect the right of Catholics to be Catholics, it is time for Ireland to contract out of that Convention. I am not aware that the ECHR questions the right of Catholics to have their own schools. As for the EU, it has no authority over education.

P.S. In the Netherlands since 1918 Catholic schools have been entitled to 100% funding from the taxpayer. Likewise Calvinist (Presbyterian) schools. Likewise secular schools owned and managed by the State.

crucamim

koth wrote: »

You claim that there are school teachers out there spending time in class speaking unfavourably of the Catholic church.

I am indeed.

crucamim

Tordelback wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how people I knew when we were that age had those very attitudes

A very valid point. When I was 20 I believed that all schools should be State schools. Now 45 years later, I believe that no school should be controlled by the State which, of course, means controlled by politicians.

Age changes most people and changes them profoundly.

Genghiz Cohen

crucamim wrote: »

A very valid point. When I was 20 I believed that all schools should be State schools. Now 45 years later, I believe that no school should be controlled by the State which, of course, means controlled by politicians.

Age changes most people and changes them profoundly.

So get the church to support the schools 100% and quit bitching.

crucamim

getz wrote: »

one thing irish parents have to realize is that ireland receives large EU grants for its education systems,do you believe that would still receive it,if it was found to be used to help discriminate against children on religious grounds.

I did not know that Ireland receives large EU grants for its education systems. Nor did I know that it was receiving those grants on condition that it imposed anti-Catholic teachers on Catholic children or Jewish teachers on Muslim children or Muslim teachers on Jewish children. But I will assume that you are telling the truth. I think that, if membership of the EU requires Catholic children having to submit to the authority of anti-Catholic teachers, Ireland should withdraw from the EU.

P.S. I think that, regardless of what the EU does or does not do, Ireland should get out of it.

CerebralCortex

crucamim wrote: »

A very valid point. When I was 20 I believed that all schools should be State schools. Now 45 years later, I believe that no school should be controlled by the State which, of course, means controlled by politicians.

Age changes most people and changes them profoundly.

Unfortunately!

crucamim

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

So get the church to support the schools 100% and quit bitching.

Why should Catholics be financially penalised for keeping their children out of the clutches of people like you?

crucamim

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Unfortunately!

I agree. When I was 20, I did not have arthritis or diabetes. And I had hair.

Genghiz Cohen

crucamim wrote: »

Why should Catholics be financially penalised for keeping their children out of the clutches of people like you?

What kind of person am I?

All I want is for everyone in the world to be treated fairly.

Also note: I said the church, not Catholic parents.

getz

crucamim wrote: »

getz wrote: »

it works very well in britain,any faith school that takes the tax payers money/grants has to have a catchment of children for other faiths,and any teaching jobs must not be non discriminating /QUOTE]

What you state is not true for England, Wales and Scotland. And it is even less true for that part of the UK called "Northern Ireland". In Northern Ireland schools owned by the State are allowed to discriminate when taking on teachers. And they do.

in the united kingdom there are many ;local authority maintained[ie state funded ]catholic schools these are open to pupils of all faiths or none ,although if the school is over- subcribed the will be able to keep it all catholic,on teachers as long as they have the catholic teaching qualification,they cannot be discriminated againts,you will find many catholic schools in the UK advertising for pupils of other faiths.