Dutch to abandon Multiculturalism.

marcsignal

Although I wasn't too surprised to hear Angela Merkel say that multiculturalism has utterly failed in Germany, and that Cameron and Sarkozy eluded to the same, in their respective countries. I am surprised to hear the laid back Dutch appear to have had their fill of it too.

The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."

The letter continues: "A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens. It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands. The integration will not be tailored to different groups."

The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

full article

http://www.hudson-ny.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism

Wolfe Tone

Sounds good enough to me.

Where To

I was going to write something witty about old
dykes but it wouldn't be very multicultural:P

ArtyM

As long as they keep making the Gold they can do what they damn well please.

tolosenc

Fair enough.

The Aussie

I will sling my hook and say good night, cant see this thread ending with a hug...

Latchy

Overall I dont think Muslim parallel societys in western countrys are a great idea , especially when they are spewing out so much anti - western bile while living in them .

My name is URL

The only reason it fails is because it's a government model.. it'd work much better if it were allowed develop and exist naturally.

doctor evil

The Americans had it right with allegiance to their flag.

Eric Cartman

brilliant, another reason to like the dutch , bout time somebody stands up to them immigants, TUK R JIIIBS

no but seriously, this is great

Phill Ewinn

I for one welcome our new overlords of multiculturalism.

Greentopia

Nothing very surprising I think about the ruling center right coalition with the help of an anti-Islam party bringing in a bill like this.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The language one is interesting. Be hilarious if they brought that in for Ireland. All theses non-eu lads speaking better gaelige than us

pragmatic1

It seems fair enough.

Latchy

Dutch cop : stops you on the street '' Spaek Neatherlandski ''?

You : '' sure why would I need to do that when most of you lot speak english anyway '' ?

My sister speaks dutch anyway so no problems there anyhow :pac:

Mike 1972

marcsignal wrote: »

For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language

This (like most stories about "multiculturalism") is bollix ! The Dutch government cannot force a migrant from an EU member state to learn any language. Besides what if the migrants in question can speak Frisian or Limburgish ?

Paddy Samurai

The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

100% right IMO.If you live in our country you obey our rules, customs, laws , just as we do when we visit yours.

WindSock

Orange bastards.

ScumLord

doctor evil wrote: »

The Americans had it right with allegiance to their flag.

All hail emperor flag!

Latchy

:eek:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mike 1972 wrote: »

This (like most stories about "multiculturalism") is bollix ! The Dutch government cannot force a migrant from an EU member state to learn any language. Besides what if the migrants in question can speak Frisian or Limburgish ?

I'd say it refers to non-eu tbh

Da Shins Kelly

What the hell is a "model" of multiculturalism? How can you force multiculturalism? It's supposed to be a natural evolution..

But, whatever, it's their country.

marcsignal

marcsignal wrote: »

For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language

Mike 1972 wrote: »

This (like most stories about "multiculturalism") is bollix ! The Dutch government cannot force a migrant from an EU member state to learn any language. Besides what if the migrants in question can speak Frisian or Limburgish ?

how'd you do that Mike 1972 ?? I didn't actually say that in my OP

Mike 1972

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'd say it refers to non-eu tbh

It doesnt say though.

Anyway any talk of abandoning "Multiculturalism" in the Netherlands is nonsense. Theyvve been multicultural for hundreds of years

The Left Hand Of God

My name is URL wrote: »

The only reason it fails is because it's a government model.. it'd work much better if it were allowed develop and exist naturally.

eh not really. The government models exist because naturally integration failed in the 60's, 70's and 80's. So multiculturalism became a buzz word.

By failed I don't mean people didn't get along just people have a habit of sticking together ala Cork Street & Dublin 8 which is fast becoming Halal burger territory.

Not that it bothers me. I was never one for having St. Patrick's Day parades outside of Ireland.

ejmaztec

marcsignal wrote: »

how'd you do that Mike 1972 ?? I didn't actually say that in my OP

Frisians only speak one word and that's "moo".

marcsignal

ejmaztec wrote: »

Frisians only speak one word and that's "moo".

I thought it was a new boards misquote button. That could be fun

Faith+1

Good. At least the Dutch are honest with themselves unlike us.

Adamantium

oh nooess they're are not abondoning there wimmins are they? :eek:

Solnskaya

Thats the grest thing about recessions etc, they follow nice set patterns, Boom,Bust,Recrimination, Resentment, Right wing emerges, "they tuk ur jurbs", war, peace, relative prosperity while everything is rebuilt and toys are put back in prams, settled period, Boom,bust, etc,etc. Just repeat as often as required. Sequence slows dramatically when it finally goes too far at step 7.

pickarooney

The laid back Dutch? Good one!

Solnskaya

Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.

inforfun

Mike 1972 wrote: »

This (like most stories about "multiculturalism") is bollix ! The Dutch government cannot force a migrant from an EU member state to learn any language. Besides what if the migrants in question can speak Frisian or Limburgish ?

I live here in Ireland for years now.
Do you really think it would be great if i didnt speak a word of English?

In Holland you are talking about a couple of 100.000 non-western immigrants who live there for 20+ years and dont speak a word of Dutch.
And Fries and Limburgs?? Those are not languages, those are speaking disorders

Spread

Long overdue. Multiculturism is a failed concept. France tried to tell everyone that they had it right! Ghettos more like. Look at some of London's satelite towns. Or Bradford, Leicester, Moss Side, Toxteth. The Labour Party went out on a limb to collect votes and pander to the rabble rousers in the various communities. They got the votes and left mayhem. In parts, the lunatics in local government have got the national government by the short and curlies. So political expediency is not of long term benefit. Hopefully Ireland has learned from the failure of others. The fact that we didn't have overseas adventures has helped ......... so the intake of migrants is steady and not overwhelming. What we don't want is English becoming a second language in the migrant homes like in parts of the UK. Having said that, I feel optimistic about Ireland's chances of a gradual and successful integration.

marcsignal

Solnskaya wrote: »

Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.

i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

not the case ??

Solnskaya

on the no english/integration thing, have to agree, multiculturalism tends to just dilute national characteristics to the point where everywhere becomes everywhere, and thats just dull. I want my dutchies in clogs, with black jeans, slicked back hair, making a big lump of holey cheese. With a stunning blonde daughter with big jugs of milk headed for the dairy. Oh and Marc, the Dutch are nuts, think world K1 champs and football hooligans, more so than cheese and weed.

Mary28

They are laid back and friendly. They might be super direct and lack our humour but they do have a very open outlook. Light years away from the average Irish person.

marcsignal

Spread wrote: »

Long overdue. Multiculturism is a failed concept. France tried to tell everyone that they had it right!

With the Germans, French, British, and now the Dutch coming out and saying this, I cant help getting the feeling the EU want to roll this out, but want member states to drip feed it individually, rather than making it look like EU 'policy' in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Solnskaya

Mary28 wrote: »

They are laid back and friendly. They might be super direct and lack our humour but they do have a very open outlook. Light years away from the average Irish person.

Indeed. Must have slipped a bit when they colonised Africa and dreamt up apartheid. Was probably just a mood swing:rolleyes:

marcsignal

Solnskaya wrote: »

Indeed. Must have slipped a bit when they colonised Africa and dreamt up apartheid. Was probably just a mood swing:rolleyes:

Just out of curiosity is there any other European holder, or former holder of colonies you'd consider more laid back than the dutch, in that, or any respect?

genuine question

CoalBucket

For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

I have no problem with the dutch policy but what is ignoring dutch values ?

EGAR

Perhaps they all have to learn how to make cheese, plant tulip bulbs and handcraft clogs..?

marcsignal

EGAR wrote: »

Perhaps they all have to learn how to make cheese, plant tulip bulbs and handcraft clogs..?

...and partake in group sex on drugs

n900guy

Spread wrote: »

Having said that, I feel optimistic about Ireland's chances of a gradual and successful integration.

With what? A country with it's own culture, or one that has spawned an unlikely bastard son of the US, UK and Australia while turning it's back almost entirely on the non-Anglophone cultural traditions of the country?

CoalBucket

Solnskaya wrote: »

Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.

I've spent a lot of time in Holland over the years. Sometimes on business, sometimes on pleasure. In my experience the dutch are a laid back and liberal people when it comes to tolerance of other people and their beliefs and practises. I'm not talking about the coffeeshop owners !!!.

In business they are pretty much like the germans, efficient and professional. Again I'm not talking about the coffee shop owners.

They seem to have the best of both worlds from my point of view and us Irish could learn a lot from them. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my perception.

Edit: BTW I'm from Cork too, were the best people in the world, and I'm being modest

n900guy

marcsignal wrote: »

i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

not the case ??

Liberal is a misinterpretation. IMHO, Dutch culture is more about fair trade, and working together for the common good. Drugs, prostution being open in the eyes of the law and on the street allows it to be included in the funcitoning of society - for good or bad, and not dragged down a backstreet causing more problems.

But liberal, laid back - no. The opposite IMO. More like agreeable, direct and focussed from a group consensus, with less individualism.

Einhard

I find it very strange that Europeans have to have so many models, and concepts, and projects surrounding immigrants and their integration. It's really quite simple. The Americans have been doing it for centuries- we'll respect your culture, as long as it doesn't clash with our laws. Isn't that pretty simple?

stevenmu

marcsignal wrote: »

i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

not the case ??

It's a little more complex than that. In general, Dutch people are actually pretty conservative and traditionalist, and in some ways what we would often think of as right-wing. But they're very tolerant and generally respectful of other peoples ways and ideas. They're pretty libertarian and don't try to ban or criminalise things just because they don't like it themselves, as long as it doesn't hurt them directly they're pretty ok with it.

This is unusual to Irish people. We're used to rigidly classifying ideas and ideals as right or left, and we make the assumption that if someone likes one right wing thing they like all things we have determined as right wing, and vice versa. And we expect people of different ideologies to be completely opposed to each other, and to fight against each others ideas, and even try to ban or criminalise them.

So when someone is tolerant of something, we assume they're generally agreeable and laid back, which would be true in an Irish context, but in a Dutch context it's just that they don't see it as any of their business to stand in your way.


And that's where the problem with Islam and multiculturalism is coming in. Being tolerant and letting others live their own way is a very highly held principle, but they perceive Islam as something which imposes a lifestyle and rules on others. In general the Dutch are quite happy with people being a different religion and saying different prayers in a different language. They're ok with people wearing different clothes and eating different foods and so on. But they now perceive Islam as being something which dictates to other people how to live, and that's something which goes against possibly their highest values, and that's something they're not willing to tolerate.

amacachi

and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

Hmm, so either they've been going easy on immigrants who broke the law until now or else they're going to treat immigrants more harshly than natural-born citizens from now on.

I suppose there's always the third possibility that they're just being full of Scheisse.

Sid Sarcastic

Has anyone informed these Muslim chappies that there is no god? I think it high time don't you?

sollar

stevenmu wrote: »

but they perceive Islam as something which imposes a lifestyle and rules on others. They now perceive Islam as being something which dictates to other people how to live, and that's something which goes against possibly their highest values, and that's something they're not willing to tolerate.

Nor should any western country. If people want to live in the west they should have to fit into our society not the other way round.