Referees - something needs to be done

s3129

bring back the gaa of the 80's and 90's. refs need to stop blowing up play for every small tap and knock. let the game flow and let the players fight for the ball within reason.

TopOfTheRight

ballykev wrote: »

It is 100% not a free, it the player if the player leg gets taken from under him by accident. are you for real?

If a player is running towards the ball with a chance to score and is tripped from behind it is a free regardless of the intentions of the chasing player (something that is impossible to prove anyway)

Pharaoh1

Medu wrote: »

G.football isn't a very well designed sport.

It has a very large playing area with a single ref. The ref is except to constantly monitor the player in possession to make sure he isn't fouling the ball. The ref must also make sure that the player with the ball isn't been fouled which is nearly an impossible task as there really isn't a clear definition of what a foul is in GAA. Contact is allowed, but not too much contact. You can wrap your arms around a player for a split second but then you must let go, but you can rinse and repeat. Both of these are very grey area's.
It has gotten worse in the last few years as crowding out has become a popular way of defending. Here the player in position is constantly been 'slapped' and is basically unable to move due to been surrounded. They are unable to pass the ball as both valid methods of passing the ball in GAA require space for the player to strike the ball. We saw Kildare penalised today for doing this, even though it's often allowed- another grey area.
And of course while this is going on there are 10 other 'couples' marking each other- punching each other in the kidney's and grabbing each other's nuts every chance they get!

This of course is the nub of the problem which continues to be ignored by almost everyone involved including the media.
McGeeney has been the most outspoken on the subject - he got John Bannon in to observe the players in training/practice games in an attempt to define as best he could what was a tackle and what is a foul. But it didn't really work as the type of "tackle" that Bannon said was OK was being penalised by other referees in competitive games.
I don't believe the Sunday Game for example has ever done even a 10 minute slot on the tackle/foul issue.
Having said this from watching Kildare regularly they are probably one of the best clean tackling teams. McGeeney has tried to get them to go for the ball cleanly with the open hand at the right time.
Some inter-county and many club sides engage more in the slapping/beating/clawing/scraping/occasional punching method.

But is there a solution - probably not as to make it crystal clear you would have to go to either extreme eg the basketball style where no contact is allowed or to Aussie Rules at the other end of the scale.

Colm R

Clearly there is a problem with the rulebook, and it needs sorting, in particular, the tackle needs to be better defined.

But the events at the ladies game in Tyrone on Friday are highlighting the bigger problem in GAA. We are loosing out on potential good referees because of events like this. And it needs to be addressed. We need to take a rugby style attitude to respect for referees. We all hear of stories like a ref running for his car at some Junior C match.


That ref in Tyrone could potentially have been the next best referee. He may not have been, but I'm willing to bet we'll never know.

rebel girl 15

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i did the reffing course when i was younger and alot of the rules of the game are crap and really hinder the refs. if they keep to them, the are running the risk of runing the game.alot of the rules are not known by everybody, for instance shouldering a lad off the ball is not allowed depending on the direction that the ball is going, yet you never see them given. theres a good few in there.

Third man tackle is being given more and more

Colm R wrote: »

Clearly there is a problem with the rulebook, and it needs sorting, in particular, the tackle needs to be better defined.

But the events at the ladies game in Tyrone on Friday are highlighting the bigger problem in GAA. We are loosing out on potential good referees because of events like this. And it needs to be addressed. We need to take a rugby style attitude to respect for referees. We all hear of stories like a ref running for his car at some Junior C match.

That ref in Tyrone could potentially have been the next best referee. He may not have been, but I'm willing to bet we'll never know.

That was disgraceful - I hope the clubs involved know the supporter and name them- as well as the referee the county chairman was hospitalised.

DB10 wrote: »

- The farce in the Dublin Kildare game with the last free and sending off.

Eoghan O Garas sending off was completely deserved - I was watching it on the Sunday game in the company of a few referees, who all said it should have been a straight red, he could have broken the Kildare players jaw.

Mountainlad

Browney7 wrote: »

I think its time for 2 refs to be honest. One for each half of the field. Either that or give the linesmen more power to give decisions like in soccer.

Refereeing has been poor in the hurling aswell. James Owens was terrible last week in the Clare Tipp game and Barry Kelly missed as clear as day a free for Limerick in the last minute of their game against Waterford. Add in the farse of added time in the offaly game yesterday and people are going to start questioning the refs big time.

Thought Barry Kelly was quite good in the Waterford v Limerick game, and I'd say he missed one or two but that free didn't cost Limerick the game. Same with what Dooley was on about last night, I give Offaly credit for nealy beating Cork but they can't blame the ref for not adding on more time. They had about 72 minutes to win that game, and the chances to do so, and they didn't simple as.
_________________________________________________________________

What has happened in Tyrone and what happened in the Leinster football final were disgraceful, no doubt about it, but these people are thugs. They are probably the same people that start fights on Saturday nights outside pubs. There isn't a lot you can do about it. And it happens in all sports, even Rugby at amateur level. It's not a regular occurance thank god.

It seems to me as though some people think that everybody who gives out about a referee wants to physically injure that ref. This is just not the case. What people want when they say that is for change so that nobody is talking about the referee after the game. We should be talking about the game itself not the penalty that wasn't given/ red card that was.

In my opinion, referees need to undergo more training. I appreciate that they are in their 40/50s and therefore can't be as agile as players but they don't need to be, it's not like they're getting in to the thick of the action trying to win the ball. But they do nedd to be fitter in order to make better calls through out the entire game.

Linesmen of course are also trained referees, so they will do the same training. I feel that poor decisions by linesmen maybe part of the problem we've had. Brian Farrell's red card seems to have been given by a linesman, it would appear that Michael Murphy's was to, and yesterday a linesman somehow decided Keith Higgins punch in the face was only a yellow.

This may sound like a contradiction, though it's not, but I feel like Browney 7 said the linsmen need more power to call things the ref can't see it. GAA pitches are big. If they are trained properly, they will be able to help contribute to more satisfactory officiating of our games.

Video technology can not be introduced to referee games, it would only be there to determine if the ball crossed the line or was a lad in the square. And I wouldn't be in favour of that solution because, for example, I know having witnessed a game in Fraher Field a few years ago where the referee was chased off the field, that video technology won't help him as they can't afford to put it in place for club games, so it's not a real solution.

Also, we need more clarity in the rulebook, it is clearly a joke that people can actually have what would be deemed to be a fair case to say Brian Farrell deserved to be sent off against Kildare because of the ambigouity in the rulebook.

In summary;

1. Better training for referees and linesmen.

2. More power for Linesmen

3. No video technology

4. Clarity in rulebook

Mountainlad

By the way, Eoghan O Gara was lucky not to get a straight red card for that. And he can't be sited now, which is ridiculous. Nor can Keith Higgins.

quantity771

As with most things in life mistakes happen, and we have all seen bad decisions go for and against our team, but as a upcoming (hopefully)referee myself I honestly believe that the free given in the last minute was completely justified,contact was made and rules were broken end of.
It's black and white in the rule book!

As I said in the match thread, this incident could have happened at any other point of the game and no eye lid would have been batted.Not only that but I think the referees report from GAA HQ will agree totally with the call.

rebel girl 15

Mountainlad wrote: »

By the way, Eoghan O Gara was lucky not to get a straight red card for that. And he can't be cited now, which is ridiculous. Nor can Keith Higgins.

Yes, he can afaik - the yellow card he got for it can be upgraded to a red if the CCCC deem it

Mountainlad

quantity771 wrote: »

As with most things in life mistakes happen, and we have all seen bad decisions go for and against our team, but as a upcoming (hopefully)referee myself I honestly believe that the free given in the last minute was completely justified,contact was made and rules were broken end of.
It's black and white in the rule book!

As I said in the match thread, this incident could have happened at any other point of the game and no eye lid would have been batted.Not only that but I think the referees report from GAA HQ will agree totally with the call.

Numerous times, the referees decisions were questioned, even at half time they were being questioned, so I'm sorry but that is not true. He was poor.

The GAA don't have a habit of contradicting referees, so no doubt the decision will be 'justified'.

Mountainlad

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Yes, he can afaik - the yellow card he got for it can be upgraded to a red if the CCCC deem it

I don't think that is still the rule. Was fairly sure I saw in a report on the changes made to the rules in congress that that was one of them. Tony Davis and Kevin McStay also seemed to think so. I'm not 100 % all the same.

end a eknny

sendit wrote: »

In the Mayo V Galway game Higgins punched a player in the side of head, if that had been Galvin or Tomas O Se im sure the cccc would already be meeting to dicuss the longest ban available.

surely there is a difference between a one off offence and if thats the way you play every game

end a eknny

thought the reffering of the louth meath was brutal. was probably aware everbody was watching him. was giving a lot of soft frees not giving frees then calling them back very indecisive.made a bad game worse

Stabshauptmann

Medu wrote: »

G.football isn't a very well designed sport.

It has a very large playing area with a single ref. The ref is expected to constantly monitor the player in possession to make sure he isn't fouling the ball. The ref must also make sure that the player with the ball isn't being fouled; which is nearly an impossible task as there really isn't a clear definition of what a foul is in GAA. Contact is allowed, but not too much contact. You can wrap your arms around a player for a split second but then you must let go, but you can rinse and repeat. Both of these are very grey areas .
It has gotten worse in the last few years as crowding out has become a popular way of defending. Here the player in position is constantly being 'slapped' and is basically unable to move due to being surrounded. They are unable to pass the ball as both valid methods of passing the ball in GAA require space for the player to strike the ball. We saw Kildare penalised today for doing this [crowding out or passing the ball other than with a striking motion?], even though it's often allowed- another grey area.
And of course while this is going on there are 10 other 'couples' marking each other- punching each other in the kidney's and grabbing each other's nuts every chance they get!

Agreed.

I think we need a two pronged solution.
1) Make the rules clearer - dont change them or bring in new ones, just make them clearer.

2) Introduce more eyes. Basketball has two refs and it works quite well, rugby has the video ref. Indroduce a system.

gaffer91

Completely agree OP. The amount of big decisions GAA refs get wrong is absolutely shocking and this weekend just underlined that.

Whats almost as bad is that its not just major decisions they often get wrong, refs get so many minor ones wrong as well-soft, scorable frees being given every game, soft yellows, soft reds, yellows when there should be reds etc. Go to any championship game and its the same old, same old.

I know it would be impossible to get everything right, football is a fast game and you can't be following off the ball incidents(well not the ref anyway) but surely there is some way of improving the standard of reffing??Its beyond a joke at this point.

sendit wrote: »

In the Mayo V Galway game Higgins punched a player in the side of head, if that had been Galvin or Tomas O Se im sure the cccc would already be meeting to dicuss the longest ban available.

Absolutely true, sadly.

Browney7 wrote: »

I think its time for 2 refs to be honest. One for each half of the field. Either that or give the linesmen more power to give decisions like in soccer.

Two refs doesn't sound like such a bad idea.They could surely try it in the league given how found the GAA is of tinkering with practically every rule known to man in the Spring?? Giving linesmen more power is also something that should be tried at least. Whats also important is that umpires finally grow a pair of balls and start bringing to the refs attention any unsavoury incidents they see. It was either the 2002 final v Armagh or the 2005 final v Tyrone, I can't remember which (although it could have happened in both really given the style of play of both those teams), when Gooch was being completely roughed up in an illegal fashion in plain view of the umpires and nothing was done. Disgraceful.

ormond lad

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Agreed.

I think we need a two pronged solution.
1) Make the rules clearer - dont change them or bring in new ones, just make them clearer.

2) Introduce more eyes. Basketball has two refs and it works quite well, rugby has the video ref. Indroduce a system.

How would you make them clearer. in my opinion footballs biggest problem is that it doesnt have a defined tackle for the ball. if you had a defined tackle the game would be so much easier to play and ref.

Basketball does have 2 refs but with the speed of the game you need a 2nd ref. hurling needs a 2nd ref gaelic football doesnt.
There is only a video ref at pro level and only at televised games in rugby and you dont hear of many assualts on referees over bad decisions at any level in rugby. in recent years the only time i can remember a rugby referee being assualted was at a gaelic football game in south tipp as he also refs football
you would be better off giving umpires more authority than adding a 2nd ref

Mountainlad

ormond lad wrote: »

How would you make them clearer. in my opinion footballs biggest problem is that it doesnt have a defined tackle for the ball. if you had a defined tackle the game would be so much easier to play and ref.

Basketball does have 2 refs but with the speed of the game you need a 2nd ref. hurling needs a 2nd ref gaelic football doesnt.
There is only a video ref at pro level and only at televised games in rugby and you dont hear of many assualts on referees over bad decisions at any level in rugby. in recent years the only time i can remember a rugby referee being assualted was at a gaelic football game in south tipp as he also refs football
you would be better off giving umpires more authority than adding a 2nd ref

Yeah but the ball doesn't travel as far in basketball. The pitch in Gaelic is also a lot bigger. The reason I wouldn't go for a second ref is what if the ball is at the opposite end of the field and the ref on this side of the field sees an off the ball incident. Do you stop the game? It would be quite complex.

I think linesmem would be better option than umpires or a second ref. They tell the ref what has happened throw the ear piece, or they twirl there flag like in soccer to indicate that there is an infringement when they have a better view than the ref.

Stabshauptmann

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yeah but the ball doesn't travel as far in basketball. The pitch in Gaelic is also a lot bigger. The reason I wouldn't go for a second ref is what if the ball is at the opposite end of the field and the ref on this side of the field sees an off the ball incident. Do you stop the game? It would be quite complex.

I dont think it would be complex. You follow play, and if an off the ball incident occurs you deal with it once play has stopped. This is what refs do at the moment, no?

I think linesmem would be better option than umpires or a second ref. They tell the ref what has happened throw the ear piece, or they twirl there flag like in soccer to indicate that there is an infringement when they have a better view than the ref.

The linesmen and the umpires have jobs and must follow the ball. I dont think the solution is to give them more responsibility

Stabshauptmann

ormond lad wrote: »

How would you make them clearer. in my opinion footballs biggest problem is that it doesnt have a defined tackle for the ball. if you had a defined tackle the game would be so much easier to play and ref.

You've answered your own question.

You bring the stakeholders together and agree upon and define what is allowed. Its that simple.

paulocon

TopOfTheRight wrote: »

As for the problem with referees in general, in my opinion it comes down to the rules of our game

As it stands there is no definition of any kind of a "tackle" - going by the rule book the only time you can legally win the ball off someone is when they are playing it (hoping/soloing/hand-passing/kicking) or a shoulder-to-shoulder charge

Beyond that its all down to the referees own personal interpretation, so if we no longer trust the referees interpretations then the GAA must go about defining the "tackle" in a way that we all understand and agree on

Get McAneney to write the rulebook because he's the only referee who's interpreation i trust! (mainly because he ignores about half the rules)

Agreed. I remember discussing the tackle with a group of people and each one had a different interpretation of what is allowed (and these lads were all footballers).

As far as I can remember, the tackle is completely fluffed-over in the rulebook - must take a look again.

paulocon

Just in from the Louth v Meath Minor semi-final and it was another completely inept display from a man who seemed to think he was the main attraction.

An incredible display of inconsistency and a number of mystery decisions. Struck me as a man who never played football at any level.

The game was completely ruined as a spectacle and you've got to feel sorry for the lads from both sides who worked so hard to get there.

rebel girl 15

Referee's viewpoint from David Coldrick - anybody slating referees should have a read of it. Lot of so called experts on here

Coldrick gives referees' viewpoint
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 - 08:23 PM

David Coldrick says all GAA referees are 'big enough' to take criticism of their decisions, but personal attacks on match officials are totally uncalled for.

A calf injury forced Coldrick to pull out of refereeing last Sunday's Leinster SFC semi-final between Dublin and Kildare which ended in a controversial one-point win for the Dubs.

His replacement, fellow Meath man Cormac Reilly, was the subject of intense criticism from sections of the GAA media for awarding a disputed late free.

The spotlight on referees' performances has been ramped up over the past twelve months. The fall-out from Martin Sludden's well-publicised error at the end of last year's Leinster final went on for months.

Incorrect decisions are now thoroughly dissected, with the benefit of TV replays, but mistakes will often be made in the pressure-cooker atmosphere of a Championship match.

Coping with the increased scrutiny from the media can be difficult according to Coldrick, who has refereed two All-Ireland SFC finals and works as an Executive Manager with Irish Life Retail.

Writing in his latest blog entry on the Irish Life website, he said: "The media attention on referees at inter-county level has been building steadily over the last few years.

"There's no doubt that this puts pressure on referees each weekend during the Championship season. Referees understand that this comes with the territory but what also needs to be understood is that the referee has a split second to make each and every decision in a given match.

"He doesn't have recourse to five different camera angles or have the ability to watch five replays of the incident. Referees call it as they see it and this is no different now to any point in the past, it's just that there are far more cameras and 'experts' pouring over each and every decision a referee makes now."

Coldrick reckons that some condemnation of refereeing calls can stem from a lack of knowledge of the playing rules. In games of such high stakes, things can get unnecessarily personal as Coldrick's colleague Sludden found out last year.

"All referees are big enough to take criticism of individual decisions on the basis of erroneous implementation of the playing rules but where criticism is sometimes based on someone's 'own' set of rules which may bear little resemblance to the actual playing rules adopted by the GAA, it can be hard.

"What is also difficult to accept is when media criticism becomes a personal attack on a referee. This is cheap and not part of the game.

"Each referee has a family and neither the referee nor his family should be subjected to negative personal comments in the media. This should also be the case for players and their families.

"GAA referees adopt a professional approach to training and preparation for games. We continually strive to meet high standards and improve performance as the speed and intensity of games increase and the media scrutiny also intensifies. Referees are proud to be volunteers in the GAA."

Coldrick, who has been refereeing since 1994, will be in charge of Sunday's televised Munster SFC final between Cork and Kerry in Killarney.

Mountainlad

What constitutes a personal attack? I doubt that the media (or certainly the creditable ones, nobody should take any offense to anything written in The Star) would question anything other than his decsions on the field and certainly wouldn't bring his family into it. Is naming a specific referee for poor performances a personal attack?

If someone did bring a question into it about the personal life of a referee, well that's not on, but I haven't seen it in the media and anytime I have seen it on here it's been removed by moderators immediately and the culprits banned.