Which WW2 battle was more instrumental in defeating Germany?

Fratton Fred

If the Battle of Britain had little bearing on Barbarossa, why did Hitler delay its launch?

Bullseye1

The great patriotic war museum in Moscow is worth a visit if your a WWII buff. Some fantastic war museums in Moscow overall.

There is a very good program on Military History channel giving the Soviet history of WWII. I think it's on Monday nights. Have it on series link.

Capt'n Midnight

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the Battle of Britain had little bearing on Barbarossa, why did Hitler delay its launch?

oddly enough the trip to the Balkans didnt' change the schedule either, though having a few months in hand could have been crucial

Capt'n Midnight

Judgement Day wrote: »

If the wicked Brits hadn't stood firm, alone, against the Nazis they would have rolled over the Russians unhindered by anybody.

stood firm or stood by ?

At that stage the British had left much of their equipment in Dunkirk and were still building up supplies.

You have to remember that at that stage Germany had troops garrisoned in foreign countries from the Artic Circle to the Spanish boarder not to mention Africa.

Delancey

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the Battle of Britain had little bearing on Barbarossa, why did Hitler delay its launch?

The principal reason for the delay in launching Barbarossa was the shocking lack of motorised transport in the Wehrmacht.
We are probably all familiar with the images of the Poland invasion in 1939 and France invasion in 1940 being dominated by long lines of foot slogging infantry and horse drawn artillery , given the vast distances in Russia this sort of ' transport ' was not an option.
Barbarossa had to be delayed to allow time to build up the mobility of the German army plus it was nescessary to get more up to date tanks into the field ( despite this the Germans still found it nescessary to deploy the wretched Panzer Mk1 in Russia - a tin can with a machine gun is the kindest description one can give it ).

Eventually Barbarossa was scheduled for May 1941 but this plan sufferd a crucial delay of 6 weeks to permit German intervention in Greece and the Balkans.

Capt'n Midnight

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

One factor that is often forgotten about in the demise of Germany was the daylight bombing raids of the USAF. The USAF inflicted daylight raids were of collosal damage to German industry and on the Luftwaffe* and hence killing their capacity to keep arming and fighting.

Apart from killing civilians bombing didn't do much in relation to the effort put in. The brits survived the blitz without loosing their morale so why did they think that the germans wouldn't ?

Look at the bomber statistics 45% average fatalities amongs crew.
more stats here -
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r_m_g.varley/Strategic_Air_Offensive.pdf
look at the graph on page 37 to see that there was relaviely little bombing before 1943


In fairness the ball bearing thing nearly worked but only because the Germans uprooted ball bearing factories in other countries. The operations against the V weapons did work. But that bombing raid on the refinery was a waste of time as the damage done was similar to the amount the refinery was under capacity because of shortages of crude oil. And that was the story for most other industries,
Also bombing didn't work against North Korea either when they moved factories into mines.

Don't know much about the Soviet airforce,

https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/283215/Ilyushin-Il-2
Ilyushin Il-2, also called Stormovik, Cuban stamp depicting a WW2 Ilyushin IL-2. [Credit: iStockphoto/Thinkstock] single-seat assault bomber that was a mainstay of the Soviet air force during World War II. The Il-2 is generally considered the finest ground-attack aircraft produced by any nation during World War II.
The Russians produced over 36,000 of them

*Don't have figures to hand but I remember watching a programme on Discovery and they said that the Mustang shot down more ME 109's than the British and Soviet airforces together. Correct me if I'm wrong.

on that basis Hawker Hurricane more or less won the battle of Britian by itself.
are you sure it wasn't Me190's ?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Italian incompetence in the Balkans led to German troops having to postpone the invasion of the USSR in order to bail out their allies. So that's an important one to remember.

Delancey

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

on that basis Hawker Hurricane more or less won the battle of Britian by itself.
are you sure it wasn't Me190's ?

Me 109 is correct , I think you may be confusing it with the later and much more potent Focke Wulfe 190.

Yes , the Hawker Hurricane made up over 2/3 of RAF Fighter Command in the summer of 1940.

Thingy

It was the Battle of Pearl Harbour which proved the must instrumental in defeating Germany. Just ask Churchill.

indioblack

Delancey wrote: »

Eventually Barbarossa was scheduled for May 1941 but this plan sufferd a crucial delay of 6 weeks to permit German intervention in Greece and the Balkans.

That was a point I was going to make.
What effect did this delay, turfing the British out of Greece, have on Barbarossa?
I think Overlord was a bit more than a sideshow - my old man was in Normandy! He always had great respect for the German soldier.
Bomber Commands offensive was effective - as was the USAAF's.
The Battle of the Atlantic was vital to the Anglo-Americans.
In the east, the backbone of the German Army was broken by the Russians.
The Battle of Britain was important because it happened when it happened - in the early stages of the war and following a series of defeats and capitulations in the west.
It was the first time the Germans had suffered a defeat.
"Britain standing firm or standing by?" Well, they weren't winning - but they weren't losing either.
A final thought - how about the intelligence war?

Delancey

The 6 week delay caused by the Greek adventure meant that when the Germans came to take Moscow that great Russian military leader called ' Marshal Winter ' had intervened to save the city - whether that would have altered the outcome of the war if of course debatable.

Regarding the intelliegnce war the allies won it hands down ; they cracked the enigma cypher , they had superior air reconaissance capability , their German counterparts ( the Abwehr ) were for the most part incompetent - just look at their amateurish efforts to link up with the IRA. The Abwehr had many of its agents captured and 'turned'.
Barbarossa saw a huge revival in the european resistance movements which up to that point had been pretty ineffectual - thousands of communists flocked to join and they proved a good source of intelligence to the allies. Without the communists the resistance in France for example would have achieved very little.

The Normandy landings were crucial in that they split the German war effort and doubtless shortened the war by opening up the ' Second Front ' but again when you consider that close on 90% of German war dead were killed on the eastern front you realise that '' The Great Patriotic Struggle '' defeated the Nazis.

indioblack

Delancey wrote: »

The Normandy landings were crucial in that they split the German war effort and doubtless shortened the war by opening up the ' Second Front ' but again when you consider that close on 90% of German war dead were killed on the eastern front you realise that '' The Great Patriotic Struggle '' defeated the Nazis.

Good post. Yes, there's no getting away from that. The Eastern Front was on a completely different scale.

Fratton Fred

Delancey wrote: »

The 6 week delay caused by the Greek adventure meant that when the Germans came to take Moscow that great Russian military leader called ' Marshal Winter ' had intervened to save the city - whether that would have altered the outcome of the war if of course debatable.

Regarding the intelliegnce war the allies won it hands down ; they cracked the enigma cypher , they had superior air reconaissance capability , their German counterparts ( the Abwehr ) were for the most part incompetent - just look at their amateurish efforts to link up with the IRA. The Abwehr had many of its agents captured and 'turned'.
Barbarossa saw a huge revival in the european resistance movements which up to that point had been pretty ineffectual - thousands of communists flocked to join and they proved a good source of intelligence to the allies. Without the communists the resistance in France for example would have achieved very little.

The Normandy landings were crucial in that they split the German war effort and doubtless shortened the war by opening up the ' Second Front ' but again when you consider that close on 90% of German war dead were killed on the eastern front you realise that '' The Great Patriotic Struggle '' defeated the Nazis.

And that's my point about the battle of Britain. Britain was never going to deliver the hammer blow to defeat the Nazis, but the BoB kept Britain in the war and they remained a constant thorn in the side of the Germans.

No Britain, no Battle of the Atlantic, no Overlord, no enigma cypher.

And another thing that is overlooked, where would Stalin have stopped?

rokossovsky

I read somewhere that the dutiful, diligent Germans registered the patent on the Enigma Machine with the London Patent Office in the early 1930s and when the British came to decipher the code they had the plans of the machine there to hand. I dont think the registration of the patent made the deciphering any easier though but cant have hindered their efforts

getz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And that's my point about the battle of Britain. Britain was never going to deliver the hammer blow to defeat the Nazis, but the BoB kept Britain in the war and they remained a constant thorn in the side of the Germans.

No Britain, no Battle of the Atlantic, no Overlord, no enigma cypher.

And another thing that is overlooked, where would Stalin have stopped?

spot on,from 1st sept 1939,britain was on the back foot ,when france fell ,it was only britain that held back hitler,if britain had fallen,the USA would have never come into the war in dec 1941,you could not at that time fight a cross atlantic war in europe without having a foot hold in europe, russia did not come into the war untill june 1941,up to then they had a agreement to share poland, germanys mistake of attacking russia before finishing off britain was fatal,so to me the turning point was the battle of britain.

Fratton Fred

rokossovsky wrote: »

I read somewhere that the dutiful, diligent Germans registered the patent on the Enigma Machine with the London Patent Office in the early 1930s and when the British came to decipher the code they had the plans of the machine there to hand. I dont think the registration of the patent made the deciphering any easier though but cant have hindered their efforts

They may have done, but iirc, the Germans added a fourth wheel to the machine which made cracking it even harder. capturing an intact enigma machine and breaking the codes was a key moment in the war.

getz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They may have done, but iirc, the Germans added a fourth wheel to the machine which made cracking it even harder. capturing an intact enigma machine and breaking the codes was a key moment in the war.

can you imagine just what was going through churchills mind in sept 1940,russia had a pact with germany to supply iron for their war machine,and both italy and japan signed a treaty with germany,things were not looking good,

PatsytheNazi

getz wrote: »

can you imagine just what was going through churchills mind in sept 1940,russia had a pact with germany to supply iron for their war machine,and both italy and japan signed a treaty with germany,things were not looking good,

Yeah, bet Churchill the ' hero ' was terrified that the Germans would invade and do to Britain what Britain had been doing to other countries around the world.

Fratton Fred

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yeah, bet Churchill the ' hero ' was terrified that the Germans would invade and do to Britain what Britain had been doing to other countries around the world.

You really can't help yourself can you?

Is it a form of tourette syndrome?

PatsytheNazi

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really can't help yourself can you?

Is it a form of tourette syndrome?

Well I think it's an accurate comment, too bad you don't like it.

But coming from someone who had the History forum absoulutely ruined by continually hijacking any discussion which may have been critical of Britain, no matter how mild, with the Strawman decoy - " the IRA did this, the IRA did that, the IRA did the other " - that's something

Dades

Enough with the handbags, people. This thread was doing fine up until.

Delancey

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They may have done, but iirc, the Germans added a fourth wheel to the machine which made cracking it even harder. capturing an intact enigma machine and breaking the codes was a key moment in the war.

Cracking Enigma was of huge value - it is impossible to overestimate how important this was.
It's worth bearing in mind that the Enigma story was not declassified till the 1970's , of equal importance to cracking the cypher was keeping that fact secret , if the Germans had added a 5th rotor as some had suggested it would have been game over for Bletchley Park.

Capt'n Midnight

Delancey wrote: »

Me 109 is correct , I think you may be confusing it with the later and much more potent Focke Wulfe 190.

Yes , the Hawker Hurricane made up over 2/3 of RAF Fighter Command in the summer of 1940.

yeah I was

the Hurricane was tough and easy to repair, it wasn't better than the spitfire in the air but was far easier to keep in the air

Capt'n Midnight

Delancey wrote: »

Cracking Enigma was of huge value - it is impossible to overestimate how important this was.
It's worth bearing in mind that the Enigma story was not declassified till the 1970's , of equal importance to cracking the cypher was keeping that fact secret , if the Germans had added a 5th rotor as some had suggested it would have been game over for Bletchley Park.

It's also worth pointing out that the allies didn't use as good codes as Enigma so the Germans were able to get about as much info. The honours were about even.

In the pacific the US broke the Japanese codes far more than visa versa.


I can't find a link but there was a ship in the Indian ocean intercepted by a U boat and when the intel was sent to the Japeanese it helped in their decision to head south, this could have affected the war since Moscow may not have got Siberian reinforcements in time.

Delancey

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's also worth pointing out that the allies didn't use as good codes as Enigma so the Germans were able to get about as much info. The honours were about even.

In the pacific the US broke the Japanese codes far more than visa versa.


I can't find a link but there was a ship in the Indian ocean intercepted by a U boat and when the intel was sent to the Japeanese it helped in their decision to head south, this could have affected the war since Moscow may not have got Siberian reinforcements in time.

Yeah , I forget the name of the ship but AFAIK it was carrying Top Secret dispatches and for some unknown reason they were allowed fall into enemy hands rather than getting tossed overboard.

US Navy codebreakers were probably the most important part of the machine to defeat the Japanese at Midway - they allowed the Americans to completely disregard the attack on the Aleutian Islands and concentrate at the right time and location.

Capt'n Midnight

Delancey wrote: »

of equal importance to cracking the cypher was keeping that fact secret , if the Germans had added a 5th rotor as some had suggested it would have been game over for Bletchley Park.

didn't Lorenz have more rotors ?

Problem was in procedures and using A-Z wiring

also it's important to remember it was the Poles who broke Enigma



The most important spy in the war was Richard Sorge the Russian Spy in the German Embassy in Tokoyo. Had Stalin listened to him about the 1941 invasion ...



The Brits did warn Stalin about the German invasion but he didn't trust them - this shows how little cooperation there was while "Britian was standing alone"

Fratton Fred

The Poles broke an enigma (for which they get too little credit) before the war started.

The enigma Bletchley broke was a later generation and was (if my memory serves correct) the one the Kreigsmarine used for the u-boats.

PatsytheNazi

Besides the breaking of the Enigma code, another poor failing of German intelligence (Abwehr) was to identify Britain's use of radar. Though it could partly be blamed as a failing by Goering and the Luftwaffe, they failed to see it's ability as an early warning system and should have tried to destroy the radar stations in the south east of England before launching the rest of the air attacks on Britain. Surprisingly for a country that is a by word for efficiency, the Abwehr certainly were amateurish.

Fratton Fred

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Besides the breaking of the Enigma code, another poor failing of German intelligence (Abwehr) was to identify Britain's use of radar. Though it could partly be blamed as a failing by Goering and the Luftwaffe, they failed to see it's ability as an early warning system and should have tried to destroy the radar stations in the south east of England before launching the rest of the air attacks on Britain. Surprisingly for a country that is a by word for efficiency, the Abwehr certainly were amateurish.

Every single spy the Abwehr sent into Britain was turned as well, with one exception. When you consider that alongside their activities in Ireland, yes, they were a bit comical.

PatsytheNazi

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The Brits did warn Stalin about the German invasion but he didn't trust them - this shows how little cooperation there was while "Britian was standing alone"

Stalin seems to have been paranoid, he didn't trust anyone, a viscous headcase. The reason the Soviets did so bad in the first few weeks of the German invasion was that Stalin had murdered most of the Soviet officer core as ' conspirators '.