Scouting Ireland and religion

Banbh

Is Scouting Ireland a Catholic organsiation? I thought that when the merger between the old CBSI and SAI took place, the new organisation was going to be non-specific as regards religion.

I find that my two young scouters have to attend Masses when away with the scouts and there's a "spiritual adviser" who is a priest, who has access to the children.

I'm wondering if I should write to the organisation telling them that my kids are non-Catholic but am not sure if they will be discriminated against. Any advice?

Whitehawk

Scouting Ireland dose not focus on any one religion anymore cos of the merger between the old CBSI and SAI, however and this is a bit HOWEVER
on large events such as the jamboree that is happing this year SI allow the people running it decide how much religion there will be and where its focus will be, this was a big part of the SI merger that allowed it to happen. There are parts to events that some troops do that is a “scout own” or something like that anyhow and its just a prayer and a few words personly I don’t like it but since the SI merger people running them do not just seem to base it on 1 religion but bring in to a few religions! Tho this is not always the case.

"young scouters have to attend Masses"
re this, in our troop say at Easter we try and get the scouts to go to a catholic or protestant services however we also have a group that just don’t go to any as they do not follow any of the 2 above however to be in that group a parent has to tell us
So you should first talk to the scout troop leader and see if you can sort something out there
Also re this “spiritual adviser" been the priest, who has access to the children again my troop dose not follow this but I know about some that do etc really your child should not have to sit though anything they don’t want to as in the end scouting is there for fun the priest in question should only really be talking on a religious level to the group as a hole after that sometimes they talk to the scouts but noting about religion mostly about camping what there doing on the camp etc! there priest would also / should also always be with a leader as in child protection there is no one to one re adult and child!
May I ask has all this come up re this jamboree training camp that has just taken place?
If you have any more questions just ask, or if you want me to clear anything up above just let me know, you can also PM me if you would like.

All in all I would talk to the main leader of the troop, if you feel you are getting no where to contact SI - http://www.scouts.ie/more/about_scouting_ireland/professional_staff-51.html

Cookie_Monster

there are plenty of groups that are still hung up on the religion aspect to certain degrees. My group for example is based in a CoI ground so do the Easter mass, harvest parade etc. And while everyone is encouraged to attend there is no compulsion and this is the only aspect of religion apart from some general services on summer camps.

Other groups would still be a lot more or less religious depending on the leaders, location and history.

I find that my two young scouters have to attend Masses when away with the scouts and there's a "spiritual adviser" who is a priest, who has access to the children.

Both of those would be unacceptable to me in a group to be perfectly honest, and no group leader should let it happen.
It's no more acceptable these days that not allowing girls join. There should be no compulsion to attend mass even if some of the group are, and there certainly should not be a priest involved with kids in that kind of position, they can do that kind of thing outside of scouts if they so choose

Banbh

Thanks for replies guys. We are going to get in touch with group leader and have a chat.

It's a great organisation, great opportunity for kids to mix and get out and about and the leaders deserve a lot more credit for what they do.

There should be a 'Leaders Day' each year where the scouts and parents cook a meal and give cards etc. It might make some of them understand what work is being done.

Sparkles:)

Organisation is not catholic but one does have to believe in something apparently...

Our Spiritual advisor in our county is a Roman Catholic priest, with child protection training/vetting and is an acting scouter.

He's a lovely man that in no way forces opinions on anyone, goes by his first name not father and we do a scouts own, rc mass, have Church of Ireland service times available as well (usually the times align). I take atheists/agnostics/confused to a mess tent and chat about what we believe or don't believe.

If beavers/cubs/scouts parents wish them to attend they attend, venture scouts and rovers make these decisions themselves

Banbh

Our Spiritual advisor in our county is a Roman Catholic priest, with child protection training/vetting and is an acting scouter.

He's a lovely man that in no way forces opinions on anyone, goes by his first name not father and we do a scouts own, rc mass, have Church of Ireland service times available as well (usually the times align).

This sends shivers up my spine. It seems that the religious have managed to infiltrate what should be a youth organisation for ALL children.

Sparkles:)

it is an organisation for all children, spirituality and religion are very important for young people and I say this from an Atheists point of view...

I don't believe in god myself for example, i have 7 young adults whom also do not, one church of ireland young person and one "confused" roman cathoic young adult... we discuss all religions beliefs etc not only to understand what and why they think a certain way but to develop an appreciation and an understanding for others beliefs... although all my youth members are 15/16 which is admittedly different with regard spirituality than beavers or cubs would be

Banbh

spirituality and religion are very important for young people and I say this from an Atheists point of view...

I can't make sense of that.
Here's the kernal of the thing: are there people in Scouting Ireland who are using it to put forward a religious perspective to children of non-religious parents and are they using the organisation to oblige all children to attend their religious services?

Sparkles:)

Scouting Ireland is a member of the World Organisation of Scout Movement... in order to be a member one must accept religion or spirituality of some or any kind.
(In saying that, I am a self confessed atheists and technically should not be a member)

I have yet to meet anyone in Scouting Ireland who force their views, religiously or otherwise on ANY young person but when a group is predominately one religion it is common place to attend mass/service etc, young people not of those views do not go and scouters sit out mass/service with them...

I see no problem with spirituality being in Scouting personally

Banbh

Sparkles, you say that Scouting Ireland requires its members "to accept religion or spirituality of some kind" and that as an atheist you should 'technically' not be a member. Well then 'technically' my children, from a non-religious family, should also not be members.

Clearly Scouting Ireland is not open to all young people and should not be receiving support from government and other bodies under false pretensions.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.

Agent Smith

To be a member of The WSO Scouting Ireland Has to accept Religion or spirituality of some sort.

being a member of Scouting Ireland, on the other hand. there is such obligation.

Sparkles:)

Scouting Ireland is a multi denominational organisation and says so in the constitution (I'm trying to find this for you online).

Technically my children shouldn't be members either, but technically we shouldn't celebrate christmas either yet we do... that's just us

Sparkles:)

http://www.scouts.ie/more/parental_information-47.html also

Agent Smith

Banbh wrote: »

Sparkles, you say that Scouting Ireland requires its members "to accept religion or spirituality of some kind" and that as an atheist you should 'technically' not be a member. Well then 'technically' my children, from a non-religious family, should also not be members.

Clearly Scouting Ireland is not open to all young people and should not be receiving support from government and other bodies under false pretensions.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.

Scouting Ireland (Irish: Gasóga na hÉireann) is the World Organization of the Scout Movement-recognised Scouting association in the Republic of Ireland, although it also has Scout Groups in Northern Ireland.[1] Scouting Ireland is a voluntary, non-formal educational movement for young people. It is independent, non-political, open to all without distinction of origin, race, creed or gender, in accordance with the purpose, principles and method conceived by Robert Baden-Powell and as stated by WOSM.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_Ireland


What can happen, however, If a Troup is based in a church hall or grounds of a Church, RC, COI or Other, They are invited to participate in the churches activities. When I was a leader, we used to mention that it was on, and If people wanted to attend, they were free to do so. but nobody was forced or pressurized into joining.

Ghost Buster

Sparkles:) wrote: »

Scouting Ireland is a multi denominational organisation and says so in the constitution (I'm trying to find this for you online).

Technically my children shouldn't be members either, but technically we shouldn't celebrate christmas either yet we do... that's just us

Why?????

Sauve

If we take our group away for a camp/overnight, we will always let them know where/when Mass is on, and if anybody wants to go they should let us know.
But it has never come up as an issue, and we have a multi-denominational group of kids.
Because of this, we don't bring up religion or speak about it, we don't want to offend a child who may not be Christian.

glenn3ie

Banbh wrote: »

Sparkles, you say that Scouting Ireland requires its members "to accept religion or spirituality of some kind" and that as an atheist you should 'technically' not be a member. Well then 'technically' my children, from a non-religious family, should also not be members.

Clearly Scouting Ireland is not open to all young people and should not be receiving support from government and other bodies under false pretensions.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.

As a parent you have a choice to make. You can put your child into scouts. If you do so, you accept that scouting is a faith-based organisation. Like it or lump it. Take it or leave it.

The GAA is a sport-based organisation. You have to play sport to be in the GAA and likewise in scouting you have two choices.

1. You promise to do your duty to God (whoever or whatever that God may be).

2. You promise to further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

As an aside, a lot of groups in the country would be sponsored by the parish. This should be made clear to you when your child joins.

An an aside of an aside, I find it deeply disturbing, that you would accuse a priest of 'infiltrating' a youth organisation. I know a lot of priests who are involved in Scouting Ireland and all are lovely men who are very liberal and forward thinking. Perhaps you should sit down and chat to one of them.

Banbh

Scouting is a faith-based organisation. Like it or lump it. Take it or leave it.
The GAA is a sport-based organisation. You have to play sport to be in the GAA and likewise in scouting you have two choices.

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting. It claims to be a scouting organisation and is being funded on that basis. If it is a religious organisation, then it should say that and not pretend to be open to all children.
We have just elected a President who spoke about inclusivity. I find your bigoted attitude in excluding children that don't share your religious views outdated and disgraceful.
Your "like it or lump it" attitude would not encourage me to sit down with any of your "lovely" priests. I wouldn't let my kids be with an ass's roar of any of them.
I thank you for your honesty as I have received nothing but ambiguity and double-talk so far from the official organisation.

Orizio

Sparkles:) wrote: »

Scouting Ireland is a multi denominational organisation and says so in the constitution (I'm trying to find this for you online).

Technically my children shouldn't be members either, but technically we shouldn't celebrate christmas either yet we do... that's just us

Random thing to say considering Christmas was originally a pagan tradition.

Tomk1

glenn3ie wrote: »

I know a lot of priests who are involved in Scouting Ireland and all are lovely men who are very liberal and forward thinking. Perhaps you should sit down and chat to one of them.

O god :eek:

glenn3ie

Banbh wrote: »

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting. It claims to be a scouting organisation and is being funded on that basis. If it is a religious organisation, then it should say that and not pretend to be open to all children.
We have just elected a President who spoke about inclusivity. I find your bigoted attitude in excluding children that don't share your religious views outdated and disgraceful.
Your "like it or lump it" attitude would not encourage me to sit down with any of your "lovely" priests. I wouldn't let my kids be with an ass's roar of any of them.
I thank you for your honesty as I have received nothing but ambiguity and double-talk so far from the official organisation.

No religion is not the basis of the organisation. Faith is. That can be a faith in anything from Catholicism to the Church of the Flying Sphagetti Monster and if you do not have a belief in a specific church then all you must be willing to do is further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

I'm certainly no bigot and have an inclusive attitude with my scout troop. At the moment we have Catholic Scouts and Church of Ireland scouts and we aim to accommodate both when on camps. In the past we have had Muslim scouts as well.

You call me a bigot, but your attitude and what seems to be a personal vendetta against priests and the Catholic Church makes you look ignorant.

Anyway, just thought i'd add my two cents. Over and Out.

the_syco

Wow. Scouts has changed since I was a member. I was a member of the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland (CBSI), which turned into the Catholic Scouts of Ireland (CSI) and we got some female scouts and leaders. I think we had two protestants in the CBSI - they joined as they had mates in the section, and our leaders let them join. We would goto mass, but near the end of my term in scouts, mass events happened less, and when I was in ventures no-one bothered going unless there was some big important event.

Banbh wrote: »

So religion is the basis of the organisation and I thought it was scouting.

It depends. The CBSI was an off-shoot of the world wide scouts, created so that it would be a separate entity from the scouts (which tended to have a pro-British and Protestant image) during the 1920's. So in this case, some sections of scouts in Ireland used to be Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland, and some were not. Religion probably helped create the scouts, but it's not in charge of scouts now, AFAIK.

Evil Al

glenn3ie wrote: »

No religion is not the basis of the organisation. Faith is. That can be a faith in anything from Catholicism to the Church of the Flying Sphagetti Monster and if you do not have a belief in a specific church then all you must be willing to do is further your understanding of a spiritual reality.

As an outsider, that does not appear to be correct. You oblige the scouts to swear to "Love God". This implies they have to believe in *some* god. To me, this sounds discriminatory towards athiests.

My son is still too young for Scouts but I've started doing some research as I'd love him to join in a couple of years -- I think he'd enjoy it. However, looking at troops' websites that talk about the scouts carrying the bible up to the alter at mass as a recent official event, to say nothing of the religious nature of the oath, make me think it may not be the correct organisation for my son.

Banbh

Wherever there are children, there are priests.

orathaic

Banbh wrote: »

Wherever there are children, there are priests.

Where-ever their are pliable, uneducated minds, there will be those who seek to educate or convert them...

When i was a scout in the 90s the local priest acted as our Section leader. He was not spiritual advisor but a great guy.

Scouting Ireland today on paper discriminates against atheists.

We have one atheist in my group, (whose parents have been involved with the group for long enough to know what they were getting into) We have no priests.

We try to encourage conversation about what religion and faith mean to people, and do not discriminate against anyone.

But every group is different, every leader is different. Talk to your leaders and see if you feel comfortable with your children being involved.

I don't know any leaders who don't consider the children's welfare first. However I'm sure there are people in Ireland who think that religion is in a child's best interest. Your kids are going to meet them sooner or later...

son.of.jimi

Well now i'm gonna throw my 2 cents into this.

I was in a troop a few years back and when I was asked about my religious beliefs I was kicked out. I'm an Atheist.

Where's the understanding there? I don't believe in a deity and i'm kicked out of a group that contained all my friends.

So the double talk so far is that Atheists will be required to understand people's beliefs but actually scratch that, Let's kick them out instead and exclude them from a massive social circle.

Scouter123

Hi banbh im currently involved with a group and i can safely say 15% of the young people are agnostic/atheist, they do not wish to participate in a religious experience which is fine. there are currently 2 promises any child can make 1st: On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to do my duty to God,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law. the 2nd: On my honour I promise that I will do my best,
to further my understanding and acceptance of a
Spiritual Reality,
to serve my community,
to help other people and
to live by the Scout Law.
these are just promises not oaths. a person can change does this really have spelled out? a spiritual reality could be nothing at all.
the child is preferably should begiven a choice over what to be believe in any path.
more important then these is the scout law:
a) A Scout is to be trusted.
b) A Scout is loyal.
c) A Scout is helpful and considerate to all.
d) A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
e) A Scout makes good use of time and is
careful of possessions and property.
f) A Scout has respect for self and others.
g) A Scout respects nature and the
environment.

Banbh wrote: »

I can't make sense of that.
Here's the kernal of the thing: are there people in Scouting Ireland who are using it to put forward a religious perspective to children of non-religious parents and are they using the organisation to oblige all children to attend their religious services?

i dont get why your saying it is pointed out that they dont.

It is long past time for religions to butt out of areas that don't concern them. For too long we have given priests and religious enthusiasts access to our children. I will look into what funding SI receives and what its charter says before taking this further.[/QUOTE]

i dont get why you would want to make a fight against an organisation that helps 40000 young people currently in ireland and millions more past and around the world

Banbh wrote: »

This sends shivers up my spine. It seems that the religious have managed to infiltrate what should be a youth organisation for ALL children.

I can't make sense of that.
Here's the kernal of the thing: are there people in Scouting Ireland who are using it to put forward a religious perspective to children of non-religious parents and are they using the organisation to oblige all children to attend their religious services?

you seem to be hung up on words when they are just that - words. id like to point out to most of the young people i help they dont particularly care its just something else which is apart of the scouting experience
i could go on and on as i already have but its a great thing if the young person does their best. go back to your earlier hopes

Banbh wrote: »

Thanks for replies guys. We are going to get in touch with group leader and have a chat.

It's a great organisation, great opportunity for kids to mix and get out and about and the leaders deserve a lot more credit for what they do.

There should be a 'Leaders Day' each year where the scouts and parents cook a meal and give cards etc. It might make some of them understand what work is being done.

edit: best of luck with your experieences itll be a great journey