Bizarre ideas people have about the recent past

mariaalice

Or the difference between official Ireland and unofficial Ireland.

This is inspired by the mandglan laundries thread.

I am in my late forties and when I was young which would be the early 1980ties I had no problem getting contraceptives..okay so there might not have been condoms in supermarkets and we were young adults when we started having sex and we were probably in a relationship.... they was very little teenage sex...but as far as I remember the was very little or no oppression from the catholic church in unofficial Ireland people went about there business much as they always did. Yet you have people convinced that even in the 1980ties Ireland was a backward oppressed society?

mike65

Alice Glenn
No Playboy
Alice Glenn

mariaalice

Alice Glenn was considered a slightly cranky eccentric character using her as an example of the 1980ties would be the same as using Jackie Healey Ray as an example now.

Beruthiel

mariaalice wrote: »

I am in my late forties and when I was young which would be the early 1980ties I had no problem getting contraceptives..okay so there might not have been condoms in supermarkets and we were young adults when we started having sex and we were probably in a relationship

Where I came from, having sex/living with a partner/getting pregnant was still the end of the world! Certainly not something I informed my parents about.
One small example of backwards: homosexuality was only decriminalised in 1993!

who the fug

So you were never asked by the Nun on Monday who said mass, or dragged our of the cinema by two teachers (both ladies in their late twenties) to stop you watching that porno movie Blue Lagoon

Ever try not to burst out laughing at a priest who was praying for your soul because he caught you skipping mass.

Your porn was in Spainish (Got me a B in the Leaving that did)


There was a big generation gap

Beruthiel

Don't get me started on the nuns.
Bitches, with metre long sticks for beating you with.

who the fug

Beruthiel wrote: »

Don't get me started on the nuns.
Bitches, with metre long sticks for beating you with.

WE had one nun who took the fact that the Bosses in her order would not send her on the Missions out on us every day.

mariaalice

Didn't say my parent knew what I was doing:p ....I was taught by nuns and the only example I can think of was one slightly batty teacher ( not a nun ) who tried to explain the safe period method of contraception to us and had us all keeping a chart and checking our selves this was in the late 70ties.

There was a girl who was pregnant when we were in sixth year who left school and got married but it was not see seen as a sin by the nuns instead we got a talk about wasting our futures and a chance of education if we had a baby.

Spread

I'd agree with mariaalice. Things were not as bad as they are now portrayed. Both my sisters went to boarding school in Mountmellick (long closed). Sneaking out to the cinema, or uptown to try see a bit of the outside world DID happen. This was in the late 50s - early 60s. Of course the Nuns lectured them ad nauseum about chastity, horrible boys, the dangers of dance halls and how to wear their stockings (). All this was taken with a pinch of salt (except by the pious ones who later entered). In the 60s and 70s people began to take foreign holidays ......... this opened up a whole new world, foreign food, different ideas about fashion, showing a little more flesh etc. But it was not backward - unless you wanted to live in a backward cocoon. I lived in London in the 70s, came home on holidays twice a year and saw very little difference here (except that I'd a bit more money). People were educated, did not live in hovels, were not downtrodden and enjoyed themselves. OK, Mass and the Church tried their best ....... but only succeeded if you let them. I hate the miserly Frank McCourt way of portraying Ireland. Alice Glynn? England had her equivalent in Mary Whitehouse. Eccentric and always good for a God fearing quote. But only so.

Rubik.

mariaalice wrote: »

Or the difference between official Ireland and unofficial Ireland.

This is inspired by the mandglan laundries thread.

I am in my late forties and when I was young which would be the early 1980ties I had no problem getting contraceptives..okay so there might not have been condoms in supermarkets and we were young adults when we started having sex and we were probably in a relationship.... they was very little teenage sex...but as far as I remember the was very little or no oppression from the catholic church in unofficial Ireland people went about there business much as they always did. Yet you have people convinced that even in the 1980ties Ireland was a backward oppressed society?

Industrial schools like Marlborough House, Letterfrack and Daingean would have been still up and running in your lifetime, until the mid-70's. The last Magdalene laundry closed down in 1996. The Murphy Report dealt with incidents right up to 2004.

cml387

mariaalice wrote: »

Or the difference between official Ireland and unofficial Ireland.

This is inspired by the mandglan laundries thread.

I am in my late forties and when I was young which would be the early 1980ties I had no problem getting contraceptives..okay so there might not have been condoms in supermarkets and we were young adults when we started having sex and we were probably in a relationship.... they was very little teenage sex...but as far as I remember the was very little or no oppression from the catholic church in unofficial Ireland people went about there business much as they always did. Yet you have people convinced that even in the 1980ties Ireland was a backward oppressed society?

I have only one answer to this-the abortion referendum in 1983.
Never was the country so polarised.It was a horrible time.

mariaalice

I think the 70/80ties was the last gasp of old the old style Irish catholic church....... and yes there was the abortion referendum ect but what I am talking about are peoples lived experiences at the time, which were as far as I can see very different from what you would think ...what I am trying to say if you only read/studied " official " sources of information about a particular time you would get a very one-sided idea of what life was like then.

Dose that make sense.

who the fug

Could you give us an Eg of one of them offical sources

mariaalice

This is very hard to articulate I am going to try my best here goes.

If you only read newspapers ( which are biased anyway ) you might get impression of Ireland that dose't tell the whole story.

Lots of things about the 1980ties have come back to me since I started this thread..... for example there were people in second relationships ( despite there being no divorce ) lone parent were beginning to become visible in society.
recreational use of cannabis was not uncommon.

As for the catholic church in the 1980ties for me it meant things like folk masses charismatics renewal and Taize.....

My social life consisted of going to see bands like rocky devlara, Auto da fa, and Christy Moor( before he was really famous )

I am not saying Ireland in the 1980ties was a wonderful place it wasn't you had things like the kerry babies ect.

Rubik.

On a personal level, other than having to pretend I was going to mass every Sunday until I was about 15, I didn't fell that oppressed by the catholic church. There were four presentation brothers teaching in my school, all of whom were harmless. In the 80's I would have been totally indifferent to anything to do with the church.

nesbitt

Rubik. wrote: »

Industrial schools like Marlborough House, Letterfrack and Daingean would have been still up and running in your lifetime, until the mid-70's. The last Magdalene laundry closed down in 1996. The Murphy Report dealt with incidents right up to 2004.

Shameful and more recent than I ever knew. That said, I remember myself and my older sister we would have been 16 and 18 at the time visiting our friend in 'the unmarried mothers ward' in the Rotunda. Seemingly girls could not mix with married mothers... We were treated by the nurses as if we had snot on our faces. It was 1981. I hate injustice....

Rubecula

Rubik. wrote: »

Industrial schools like Marlborough House, Letterfrack and Daingean would have been still up and running in your lifetime, until the mid-70's. The last Magdalene laundry closed down in 1996. The Murphy Report dealt with incidents right up to 2004.

Odd that you mention Daingean, I assume you mean the one in Offaly. I think I had some relatives there once. Love to know what the place is actually like, I have only ever seen pictures on the computer of the place, and not too many of them.

Rubik.

Rubecula wrote: »

Odd that you mention Daingean, I assume you mean the one in Offaly. I think I had some relatives there once. Love to know what the place is actually like, I have only ever seen pictures on the computer of the place, and not too many of them.

The film "Song for a Raggy Boy" is set in Daingean Industrial School. It wasn't filmed there, but it gives you an idea of what the place was like.

toby08

my memories of the 70s and 80s was a rural one and was every bit as bad as portrayed,the catholic church together with the law etc have still a lot to answer for

Victor Meldrew

I think it really depends what class you grew up in and whether you were urban or rural.

My Dad's experiences of growing up in the upper middle class in Dublin, and being of UK & Irish parents, was one of the church being somehing you did on Sunday and ignored after that. "You and God" was a private affair. They were nominally catholic.

My Mum's experience as small town Ireland was one of making sure you were on the right socioeconomic level and being in with the PP or monseignoir, who ruled with authority (basically he named nearly all the kids in Bagnalstown...)

Both were born in the mid 40's.

I remember the 83 referendum as being very polarising and divisive across all areas though, the north did not help either, with Catholic neighbours in South dublin telling their COI neighbours to go back to England.... (FFS!)

We were a liberal "just society FG family who wore every election on our car's bonnet and I grew up with a loudhailer on the car roof for canvasing purposes... so possibly not the most typical upbringing...

My mother still did not tell me about my uncle's divorce till the mid 80's (he marrried a french woman)...

so things were a bit weird and hypocritical in places.

Mum tells the story of my Grandfather attending a COI funeral, he was hauled up by the Monseignoir over that. He told the Mon that he cleared it with God and did not need to ask the Mon's permission...

The most shameful thing adults in the 50's to 80's had was the existance of industrial schools and launderies with everyone knowing what went on in there. But as it only happend to the working class it was let lie..

The past is, truly, a different country...

looksee

As you look back you were not aware of many of the things that have emerged since, so everything seemed ok. Also growing up you are not as aware of social issues as you are when you are adult, you just accept things.

I came to Ireland in the early 70's, and while I was not aware of the social scandals, things did seem very odd a lot of the time.

Mostly it was small stuff but they reflected attitudes at the time. I joined a discussion group that took place in a local school, we were just going to discuss current affairs. The PP - a youngish man - turned up and sat in. Not out of interest as I initially, and innocently, thought, but to keep an eye on us and make sure we did not discuss anything unsuitable!

This same PP was of course Secretary of the local primary school board where my children attended and I was invited to be on the board as a parents' representative. An important matter came up and the whole board apart from the PP voted for it, the PP had to go and put our case to the Department. Subsequently the whole thing unravelled and it turned out he had gone and given his own view as the case. And the Board didn't say a word - including me.

The children were regularly rounded up from the primary school and taken to perform at evening Pioneer concerts. However they were so badly organised that you never knew what time they would be home. One evening I lost my patience and went into the hall at around 11 pm, the children had still not gone on stage, and fetched out my 7 and 9 year olds, to the utter amazement of everyone involved.

Local handyman came to fix our tv arial, I went to pay him and he said, are you not VAT registered? I said no, why would I be? Ah, he said, get VAT registered and you could claim things like the arial against it. He more or less said that we were the only people in the village not doing that!

All very minor things, hardly worth mentioning, but they are just symptoms of a culture where you did what was organised around you. If you spoke out against any of the nonsense that went on you were local gossip for a week. Nothing was ever straightforward, thinking was so devious it was impossible for an outsider to keep up. Alcohol was totally integrated into life, except for Pioneers, who felt as strongly about not drinking as the rest did about being obliged to get outside as many pints as possible at any opportunity.

Because I was the 'Master's wife' (my husband was a secondary teacher) elderly men would tip their cap to me in the road and call me mam, which I found embarrassing. Men that I would meet in the course of a day - in shops or offices - were patronising or made comments that they thought I didn't understand, with my English accent, but by then I had worked it out. And at every possible opportunity at any sort of social event someone would explain to me the convolutions of Irish history and how I was responsible for all their ills. The women didn't say anything much beyond the children and the neighbours and who was getting married/buried/confirmed.

All that sounds like so much rambling grouchiness, but it really wasn't all that long ago, and compared to today it was a different country. Times have changed, and for the better. Its natural to look back with rose-tinted glasses, but don't fool yourself that times were better.

deisemum

I can remember in 1984/1985 when a local girl got pregnant the local priest went on a rant from the altar shaming the family. The nuns did similar in school and got the priest in to "talk" to the pupils. The worst shame you could bring on your family was to get pregnant if you were not married, jaysus even if you had sex you were seen in a very negative light. Most girls I knew had shotgun weddings including those from well off backgrounds.

I was in secondary school between 1976 - 1982 and the only sex education was at the end of leaving cert we were shown a horrific video of abortions and also in 2nd year we were told you could get pregnant from french kissing.

On Monday mornings the priest used to come into the classrooms and ask questions about mass the day before and if you didn't know it you were made an example of.

Priests were stuck in everything.

One of my friend's who's a few years younger than me was always known as the girl whose parents divorced (in UK) especially by the nuns but also by a lot of the general public.

I wouldn't call these bizzare ideas, it was the reality for a lot of people.

Nolanger

Knew a young guy who was banned from attending mass at his local church in the mid '80s. Had to visit further away churches every Sunday. To his day he doesn't know why.

mrsdewinter

I don't know: I think the OP has a point. I *think* there was a lot of hypocrisy, with a lot of people using contraception while expressing outrage - for the sake of their in-laws/PP/children's board of management - that condoms would be sold without a prescription. I don't know: I was born in the mid-70s, so perhaps a lot of the nuances of situations went over my head. But it would go some way towards explaining the 'dual nation' thing we had going on: how we were supposed to be cherishing the children of the nation equally while allowing them to be abused in institutions...

up for anything

My two sisters became unmarried mothers within a month of each other in 1975. This had to be kept completely secret from the village, in fact from everybody in the world except on a need to know basis.

One had her baby in an unmarried mothers home and on entrance to those places you were given a new name and not allowed to use your old one. The other had hers in a Dublin hospital but the father wasn't allowed in to visit her because they weren't married and she was treated like dirt by the nurses and doctors.

I was taken by a friend of friend to the doctor in 1979 to get the pill. I had to borrow her engagement ring and swear that I was getting married in a month's time before he'd prescribe it.

Another time in 1981 I went to get the pill from a doctor in Kilkee and on being asked whether I was married and having said no, he refused to prescribe it for me on religious and legal grounds and sent me away. As I opening the front door of the surgery, his partner, a young man in his 20s came out and asked me had I gone in to get the pill. When I said I had, he said come in here to me and I'll write out a prescription for you. He must have been on constant watch for incidents like this and to this day I'd love to give him a hug and thank him for watching out.

In 1983 a younger girl I'd known went into labour while doing the coat hanger thing with her jeans zip on her bed at home. It was a big surprise to her family. Another girl I know nearly died in childbirth in London. I'm not sure which would have been the worst shock for her parents - her baby or her death - and they were absolutely lovely people but like so many at that completely hidebound by Catholic Ireland.

15 year old Anne Lovett died in 1984 giving birth in a grotto. I think that was the turning point when the moral stranglehold finally began to give a little. The knowledge that a child would prefer to give birth alone than admit her 'shame' to anyone shocked people.

In those days it was accepted that you did what you did but just make bloody sure you don't get caught.

Jellybaby1

up for anything wrote: »

15 year old Anne Lovett died in 1984 giving birth in a grotto. I think that was the turning point when the moral stranglehold finally began to give a little. The knowledge that a child would prefer to give birth alone than admit her 'shame' to anyone shocked people.

Small minds still exist. I can't even imagine what terror went through Anne Lovett's mind and body as she went through labour and the birth. Did Anne tell all before she died?

("The song 'Don't You Just Love It', written by Rita Farragher and recorded by band Bleed in 1993, is based on the events of this case - written from Anne's perspective. The title obviously contains a phonetic reference to Anne's surname.
The song includes the lines: "And though this is a cold month, I didn't come here to die. I came for some mercy, but this statue won't hear me"; and "Small towns let me down, your small minds did kill me")

up for anything

I didn't realise until reading this that she was still alive when they found her.

I think the comment below has a lot of merit to it although it doesn't really apply nowadays, it would have been of immense importance back when it happened. It seems fairly obvious to me who the journalist, who wrote the above story, is pointing the finger at. It has been hinted at before but was also phooeyed (is that the correct spelling) because such things never happened but we know much better than that now.

Liza commented, on February 5, 2009 at 10:51 a.m.:
ALthough with regards to Ann Lovett I think that village ought to be disgraceful not to discuss what happened. Its that tight lipped arrogance that caused Ann to have that baby on her own. Why don't the village acknowledge what happened? Whats wrong with talking about it? It should be talked about to help girls who are pregnant to come forward and tell someone rather then go it alone. They have a duty never to allow this to happen again to anywhere in Ireland. The only way this will happen is if people talk about it.

Jellybaby1

DNA testing could prove parentage. The case could be reopened at some time in the future but is there anyone in this country with the courage to take those steps? Doubt it somehow! I don't want to dwell on this any further.