Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

robdonn · 03-03-2016 5:15pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No one was drowning in the Aegean and the Ionian until it crept down the grapevine that once you reach European soil you have made it, you wont be sent home, that trickle became a flood and in the face of a drowned child Merkal downed the border, precipitating a mass movement of people.

And if you shut the borders into Europe people will still come across because being held in a camp in Europe is still better than being killed in your own home. You're targeting a symptom, not the problem.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Obviously people will still find away across, but then you capture them and deport them, eventually the obvious futility of repeating such an unprofitable exercise will sink in.

If the US wants or needs 11 million people to work picking fruit, give out 11 million legal work permits, just like if people want to buy cocaine, sell it to them. Remove the criminal element. US agri business and Mexican criminals are the only winners in the current set up.

And don't forget the corrupt customs and border patrol agents who will let people and drugs through anyway for the right price.

And they've been catching them and deporting them for decades, it's not a deterrent. Immigrants have no problems risking being sent back to the situation they are already in for the chance to escape it and find a better life.

Again, targeting the symptom and not the problem. If you want less people to try cross the US border illegally, then give them better options to do it legally.

JPNelsforearm · 03-03-2016 5:26pm

Dont hold them in a camp, once they are on European soil the are protected by a myriad of ECHR rulings. intercept at sea and drop them from whence they came. They will still come, but its no longer a problem, nor is it a cost, beyond fuel and overtime for various military and navy personnel.

The symptoms will be there for the foreseeable future, unless you want more "team america world police" crap, its best to pull up the drawbridge and let them sort it out themselves. There are billions of poor people in the world, the solution to that is not importing them to the first world, the solution is fair trade and letting them sort out their own internal problems without skimming off their best and brightest through legal immigration, and their healthy young through illegal immigratio,n in addition to all their resources.

Nodin · 03-03-2016 5:53pm

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

Unbelievable, you have done exactly what others have been pointing out already. You cannot just toss away Trump's supporters as not smart or "suspicious of intelligence", whatever way you want to poorly disguise it. He appeals to a huge range of supporters. America isn't a nation of stupid people, whatever you want to think.. (I gleaned that from majority are supporting Trump, and probably will end up making him president)

Yet its a fact that Republican candidates in particular do everything in their power to appear as "folksy" as possible and have been doing so for many years now. They fostered the "anti-intellectual" attitude of a large section of their voter base and now an outsider is tapping the fruits of their labour.

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

And besides, why do stupid people (or those "suspicious of intelligence", again whatever the f*ck that means) get less of a vote?

They don't.

The Black Oil wrote:

Trump is like weird blend of Michael O' Leary, Boris Johnson and Ian O' Doherty.

....with a bit of Ian Paisley thrown in there for the craic.

JPnelsforearm wrote:

Yes, because pointing out increased crime of all types, as a result of mass
immigration, is concern trolling for hispanic rape victims....

Could you do me a favour and tell me what ethnicities races and religions you don't have it in for? It would take less effort than typing out the ones you do.

recedite · 03-03-2016 6:05pm

robdonn wrote: »

And if you shut the borders into Europe people will still come across because being held in a camp in Europe is still better than being killed in your own home.

You don't understand the situation at all. Migrants are are being tear gassed as they try to get out of the EU. This is happening now at the Greece/Macedonia border. Macedonia is not in the EU, but they are breaking down the fence to get into it from Greece.
And at Calais they are trying to leave continental EU for the UK.
Its not about the fear of being killed, its all about people choosing a destination country for its benefits, and then thinking they have an automatic right to go there.

robindch · 03-03-2016 6:19pm

orubiru wrote: »

David Duke and members of the KKK have as much right to vote as anyone in the US. They are obviously gonna vote for somebody, right? [...] The KKK seem more like a boogeyman than any kind of credible threat to American society. Why would anyone care who a handful of insignificant nutjobs are voting for?

On the offchance you're not trolling, I would suggest that David Duke's subsequent comment that he'd like to be Secretary of State "traveling around the world and reaching out to all the other countries", and the refusal of the Trump campaign to repudiate that comment, really tells you as much as you need to know about Trump and his politics:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/david-duke-ex-kkk-leader-says-he-would-like-to-serve-as-donald-trumps-secretary-of-state-a6908271.html

recedite · 03-03-2016 6:22pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Remind me, who thought it was a good idea to start up a mortgage company in 2006? Not John Oliver, that's for sure.

A lot of talk recently about Trump Mortgage, but did he actually lose any money on it? I agree he was late to the game, starting it in 2006, but the real test is "did he get burned?". No, he folded it after 18 months ,just before the financial meltdown in 2008.
Around this time, our own Bertie Ahern also slipped away, and left Brian Cowen to preside over the crash. Cowen subsequently spent all the national pensions reserve fund, and racked up €80 Billion debt onto current and future citizens of this country (mostly private bank and bondholder losses).
If we had run the country back then according to the Trump business model, we'd be a lot better off now.

Christy42 · 03-03-2016 6:48pm

recedite wrote: »

A lot of talk recently about Trump Mortgage, but did he actually lose any money on it? I agree he was late to the game, starting it in 2006, but the real test is "did he get burned?". No, he folded it after 18 months ,just before the financial meltdown in 2008.
Around this time, our own Bertie Ahern also slipped away, and left Brian Cowen to preside over the crash. Cowen subsequently spent all the national pensions reserve fund, and racked up €80 Billion debt onto current and future citizens of this country (mostly private bank and bondholder losses).
If we had run the country back then according to the Trump business model, we'd be a lot better off now.

Yeah a country filing for bankruptcy repeatedly doesn't work out so great. Also are you really suggesting we fold down the country as a trading entity (or that we should have in 2008)?

El Burro Juicioso · 03-03-2016 6:53pm

Nodin wrote: »

Yet its a fact that Republican candidates in particular do everything in their power to appear as "folksy" as possible and have been doing so for many years now. They fostered the "anti-intellectual" attitude of a large section of their voter base and now an outsider is tapping the fruits of their labour.

So why don't Democrats try and appeal through other tactics? Rather than just saying "Look at those idiots voting Trump".

Nodin wrote: »

They don't.

It was a specific question directed at another poster.

El Burro Juicioso · 03-03-2016 7:01pm

robindch wrote: »

On the offchance you're not trolling, I would suggest that David Duke's subsequent comment that he'd like to be Secretary of State "traveling around the world and reaching out to all the other countries", and the refusal of the Trump campaign to repudiate that comment, really tells you as much as you need to know about Trump and his politics:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/david-duke-ex-kkk-leader-says-he-would-like-to-serve-as-donald-trumps-secretary-of-state-a6908271.html

"Speaking from Louisiana, Mr Duke told The Independent that he would happy to serve in Mr Trump’s cabinet if he were elected and Mr Trump were to ask him.

“I’d like to be Secretary of State, traveling around the world and reaching out to all the other countries,” he said. "

I'd like to go to Mars and represent Ireland there, and if you were to give me a few billion that would be great. Chances of this are zero, and you don't really need to comment on it. Why would anyone have to comment on the babbling of anyone else? He didn't say anything that struck me as a reason for Trump to say "don't vote for me". He's not currently in the business of losing votes, and since only the media seems to care about it more than let's say Trumps actual foreign policy, it plays into Trumps hands.

That;s what it tells me about Trump, what other insight did you get?

Edit: Do you think this guy just conjured up the idea from his own head to be Secretary of State? Was it something put to him? Who conducted the interview and do they have an agenda? Critical thinking.

Igotadose · 03-03-2016 8:04pm

recedite wrote: »

A lot of talk recently about Trump Mortgage, but did he actually lose any money on it? I agree he was late to the game, starting it in 2006, but the real test is "did he get burned?". No, he folded it after 18 months ,just before the financial meltdown in 2008.
Around this time, our own Bertie Ahern also slipped away, and left Brian Cowen to preside over the crash. Cowen subsequently spent all the national pensions reserve fund, and racked up €80 Billion debt onto current and future citizens of this country (mostly private bank and bondholder losses).
If we had run the country back then according to the Trump business model, we'd be a lot better off now.

He's been personally bankrupt and has had 4 bankruptcies of the casinos he owned that we know about; the guy running Trump Mortgage turned out to be a fraud and it did in fact close as you say; opening a mortgage company in 2006 when big lenders were already folding isn't a recommendation of his business acumen, but he's not really a businessman, he's an entertainer. Once he publishes his tax returns we might get an idea of how wealthy he actually is. Comments like the one to Marla Maples (wife #2) are kind of telling: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012401731.html talks about him dodging complete personal bankruptcy due mostly to luck.

The guy's a clown and an entertainer, nothing more.

Nodin · 03-03-2016 8:11pm

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

So why don't Democrats try and appeal through other tactics? Rather than just saying "Look at those idiots voting Trump"..

.....how can democrats appeal to Republican party voters voting in a Republican primary?

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

He's not currently in the business of losing votes, and since only the media seems to care about it more than let's say Trumps actual foreign policy, it plays into Trumps hands.
.

Playing to the Klan vote? Classy......

El Burro Juicioso · 03-03-2016 8:25pm

Nodin wrote: »

.....how can democrats appeal to Republican party voters voting in a Republican primary?

I'm talking the actual election, should have been clearer my fault. As for the Republican primary, the other candidates need to do more than smear. I had to endure the build up to Super Tuesday, and the Cruz/Rubio tactics just played into Trumps hands.

Nodin wrote: »

Playing to the Klan vote? Classy......

How did he play to the Klan vote? Did he say, "Yes, I support the Klan"? Or did he just say nothing? As much as you may want to paint him as the next grand-whatever, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that saying nothing is endorsing something.

And besides cherry picking that last piece, why don't you respond to the whole thing?

Nodin · 03-03-2016 8:39pm

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

I'm talking the actual election, should have been clearer my fault.?

Come the election he'll get a large take of the Republican vote and very little of the swing voters. The only way I can see him getting in is by mobilising non-party non-voters.

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

How did he play to the Klan vote? Did he say, "Yes, I support the Klan"? Or did he just say nothing? As much as you may want to paint him as the next grand-whatever, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that saying nothing is endorsing something.

He doesn't know anything about the KKK and thus won't condemn them? Really? Seriously?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/28/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists/

Custardpi · 03-03-2016 8:52pm

Interesting piece in the Guardian citing emails from a range of Trump supporters, many of whom had not revealed as much to their family or friends. Aside from the breadth of political origins (far left to nativist right) one thing that strikes me is the number of them who say that Sanders would persuade them to change their vote to Democrat if he was the nominee rather than Clinton.

This would seem to be borne out by polling which in many cases shows Sanders defeating Trump by a larger margin than Clinton does. If accurate, the idea of Trump's success being more to do with his "anti-establishment" credentials (which Sanders also runs on, in his case more creditably imo) than any of his policies, credentials or accomplishments looks convincing. Is the lower margin something that could be bridged by both a smartly targeted Trump campaign & apathy towards Clinton among Democrats?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/03/secret-donald-trump-voters-speak-out

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/

El Burro Juicioso · 03-03-2016 9:00pm

Nodin wrote: »

Come the election he'll get a large take of the Republican vote and very little of the swing voters. The only way I can see him getting in is by mobilising non-party non-voters.

He'll get more than very few of the swing voters, since their other choice is going to be Hilary. That's just an opinion, however, and remains to be seen.

You read:
How did he play to the Klan vote? Did he say, "Yes, I support the Klan"? Or did he just say nothing? As much as you may want to paint him as the next grand-whatever, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that saying nothing is endorsing something.

and got

Nodin wrote: »

He doesn't know anything about the KKK and thus won't condemn them? Really? Seriously?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/28/politics/donald-trump-white-supremacists/

I'll credit you with the intelligence that saying "I don't know anything about xyz" is basically saying nothing, as he probably wasn't prepared for the question. So now, and I hate to repeat myself but you seem to like avoiding the actual question I asked, how does saying nothing show him as "playing" to the Klan vote exactly?

Whatever you think about the man himself, and I don't think highly of him either, at least pay attention to what is going on around in general. The Klan is so irrelevant now that the only reason for it being a topic is that it is being used to smear him with. Again, why are they wasting time with the ravings of David Duke, and not asking some actual important questions rather than obvious attempts at character assassination?

Nodin · 03-03-2016 10:15pm

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

I'll credit you with the intelligence that saying "I don't know anything about xyz" is basically saying nothing, as he probably wasn't prepared for the question. So now, and I hate to repeat myself but you seem to like avoiding the actual question I asked, how does saying nothing show him as "playing" to the Klan vote exactly?

Whatever you think about the man himself, and I don't think highly of him either, at least pay attention to what is going on around in general. The Klan is so irrelevant now that the only reason for it being a topic is that it is being used to smear him with. Again, why are they wasting time with the ravings of David Duke, and not asking some actual important questions rather than obvious attempts at character assassination?

You're honestly saying that an adult male capable of dressing themselves from the USA doesn't know what the KKK are and stand for? He's refusing to condemn them explicitly.

El Burro Juicioso · 03-03-2016 10:25pm

Nodin wrote: »

You're honestly saying that an adult male capable of dressing themselves from the USA doesn't know what the KKK are and stand for? He's refusing to condemn them explicitly.

Firstly, we don't know if he dresses himself. Secondly, in 2000 he did condemn them already, so it's not like this would be his first time. And thirdly by the end of the article the competitors are coming across as exasperated more than anything else.

I don't know, I'm giving an alternative possibility , and a way for people to move on to other questions, something which I've noticed you are also quite good at. He didn't condemn them, fine he obviously dropped the ball.

I'll ask my question one more time:
What did he say that actually endorsed white supremacists? "I don't know" is not endorsement, let's remember.

If your answer is "nothing, really" then let's move on to a more important issue.

Nodin · 04-03-2016 6:37am

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

Firstly, we don't know if he dresses himself. Secondly, in 2000 he did condemn them already, so it's not like this would be his first time. And thirdly by the end of the article the competitors are coming across as exasperated more than anything else.

I don't know, I'm giving an alternative possibility , and a way for people to move on to other questions, something which I've noticed you are also quite good at. He didn't condemn them, fine he obviously dropped the ball.

I'll ask my question one more time:
What did he say that actually endorsed white supremacists? "I don't know" is not endorsement, let's remember.

If your answer is "nothing, really" then let's move on to a more important issue.

He didn't, but he didn't deny them either, hence peoples difficulties.

sabat · 04-03-2016 6:55am

In tonight's debate Mr Trump gave a personal guarantee regarding the size of his penis.

Nothing you can say really, except this is the absolute nadir of American politics.

Nodin · 04-03-2016 7:05am

sabat wrote: »

In tonight's debate Mr Trump gave a personal guarantee regarding the size of his penis.

Nothing you can say really, except this is the absolute nadir of American politics.

Yes, he disavowed the KKK, then whipped out the Grand Wizard......

"TRUMP: And he referred to my hands, if they are small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there is no problem. I guarantee. "
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/03/the-fox-news-gop-debate-transcript-annotated/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

JPNelsforearm · 04-03-2016 8:46am

What a hero, he literally doesnt care and none of the plebs onstage or in the Republican party can do anything to stop him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nALb4lEbSbA

Bristolscale7 · 04-03-2016 9:46am

Trump and the Authoritarian Personality (*warning* data and academic research ahead):
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism

Igotadose · 04-03-2016 10:20am

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

What a hero, he literally doesnt care and none of the plebs onstage or in the Republican party can do anything to stop him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nALb4lEbSbA

I remember the Carter/Reagan election, National Lampoon produced a parody of some campaign ads on just this subject. Amazing, 40 years from parody to prime time discussion.

Akrasia · 04-03-2016 10:26am

sabat wrote: »

In tonight's debate Mr Trump gave a personal guarantee regarding the size of his penis.

Nothing you can say really, except this is the absolute nadir of American politics.

It was Huuugge

robdonn · 04-03-2016 10:55am

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

What a hero, he literally doesnt care and none of the plebs onstage or in the Republican party can do anything to stop him.

A hero? He talked about the size of his penis at a presidential debate. That's not being a hero, that's being unprofessional. And yes, the other candidates brought it up which makes them just as bad in this regard, but the fact that it is so easy to goad him into stupid arguments is a terrible quality to have in a president.

And to be clear, never being afraid to speak your mind is not always a good quality to have, especially in the leader of a state.

Akrasia · 04-03-2016 11:38am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Trump and the Authoritarian Personality (*warning* data and academic research ahead):
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism

Robert Altemeyer's book 'The Authoritarians" goes a long way towards explaining Trump himself, and the kinds of people who are flocking to support him.

You can read the full book on his site here
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Nodin · 04-03-2016 12:01pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

What a hero, he literally doesnt care and none of the plebs onstage or in the Republican party can do anything to stop him.

"plebs"......? Not hiding the elitism there, are we. Presumably its people who believe the above is "analysis" who vote for him.

PopePalpatine · 04-03-2016 12:03pm

What I found strange was that it wasn't those among the GOP scoring Low on the authoritarian scale who were least supportive of Drumpf (38%) - it was the Medium group on 33%. I wonder if that slight jump in support among the least authoritarian in the GOP could be attributed to Drumpf stealing the limelight of the libertarian Rand Paul, who also has an anti-establishment vibe.

Custardpi · 04-03-2016 12:04pm

Plebs is an abbreviation of plebeians, a Roman term meaning the common people. Whatever else they are the multi-millionaires of the GOP establishment can certainly not lay claim to being that.

JPNelsforearm · 04-03-2016 12:14pm

robdonn wrote: »

A hero? He talked about the size of his penis at a presidential debate. That's not being a hero, that's being unprofessional. And yes, the other candidates brought it up which makes them just as bad in this regard, but the fact that it is so easy to goad him into stupid arguments is a terrible quality to have in a president.

And to be clear, never being afraid to speak your mind is not always a good quality to have, especially in the leader of a state.

He is a hero, he is showing this whole process for what it is, a joke. "professionalism" lol, its a clown show and always has been, we have Ted Cruz going to prayer meetings and talking about divine providence, talking to "god" etc and people are worried about Trump being unprofessional, lol.

Exactly, no matter what they throw at him, he just comes out with an even more outrageous comeback. You cant stump the man, never back down or let an insult pass without giving something back

Its almost as good as the times he called Ted Cruz a "zealot", "delusional" "a liar" mid debate.