Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

I don't think so, you would just be implying that the country is different to others, and that difference is something worth preserving.

I'd love to see just one example of nationalism expressed as "we're pretty crap, and we want to keep it that way!"

JPNelsforearm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd love to see just one example of nationalism expressed as "we're pretty crap, and we want to keep it that way!"

Its more a case of, "we're pretty crap, and we don't want it to get any worse". Thats pretty much the driver of European nationalism/anti internationalism in the present day.

BoatMad

I think Trump is the ultimate populist and if elected will disappoint millions off his voters, in that (a) most of what he espouses will not happen and (b) after all he is a member of the white rich class, not the disenfranchised white poor, Trump knows nothing about that demographic.

IN the end Trump is treating the election like a reality TV show and thats whats getting him elected.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'd love to see just one example of nationalism expressed as "we're pretty crap, and we want to keep it that way!"

Iceland (a report from 2009)

Icelanders are not only angry with the governments of the UK and Holland, but also with their own government. It is a widespread belief in the country that this ill-received agreement is a result of Icelandic amateurs coming up against shrewd British and Dutch professionals who were able to manipulate the inexperienced Icelandic negotiators..
Many Icelanders feel that the Icesave agreement has been forced upon them by the powerful UK government...

In other words, "its a crappy situation, but it would be even worse if we took on all the debt that the ECB would impose on us."

BoatMad

In other words, "its a crappy situation, but it would be even worse if we took on all the debt that the ECB would impose on us."

yeah well a rock in the middle of the North Atlantic is one thing , the 16th wealthiest state , and a member of the Euro , a powerful reserve currency , is quite another . big rules for big boys clubs and all that

FA Hayek

Christy42 wrote: »

There is a difference between celebrating an event and electing a government on the basis of nationalism.

Not sure what you mean by this statement. You stated that nationalism always leads to fear yet clearly its not the case. Now you are saying there are different types of nationalism, which there is, I agree but electing a government, a government of our own is something which is the essence of the nation state. Clearly it’s nationalist. Why does the Dail even exist in the first place?

Christy42 wrote: »

If you try to get elected on nationalism you need to state that your country should be the best which leads logically to xenophobia. The Republicans have used varying scapegoats to get elected throughout the years from hippies to gay people. It has come back to haunt them.

Best is entirely subjective. I agree that American exceptionalism can be over the top but these people exist in all nations. Again, just look at French. It would be a brave man to live in France and tell them how to run their country. Not sure where you are going with the hippies and gay people comments. Didn't Bill Clinton legislate to prohibit gay marriage in the 90's?

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes. I find it hilarious that the states argue they have less of a class system. There are still issues. Places like Eton and Harrow end up with old boys clubs making it harder for poorer people to climb up (but this is again coming down to education). Royal family excepted in this point. Not too many politicians from poor families in the states.

That is because there IS an offical class system in the UK. Can anyone be King or Queen or a Duke or a Baroness? Nope. In the US a black man raised by a single mother from Kansas became President of the United States. Sorry but in terms of class systems UK >>> US.

Christy42 wrote: »

Also earlier it was claimed Trump was honest. It has been pointed out he isn't and suddenly the argument is dropped to point the finger at other politicians.

I suppose the point is that you are better off looking for a unicorn than an honest politician.

The Black Oil

Well, I laughed.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/740972317191352320

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/740973710593654784

Qs

His response about deleting e-mails was funnier. I look forward to the debates.

Walter Bishop

I certainly love the way he keeps calling a woman who claims 1/16th Native American heritage, 'Pocahontas', it's a real side splitter.

Christy42

FA Hayek wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this statement. You stated that nationalism always leads to fear yet clearly its not the case. Now you are saying there are different types of nationalism, which there is, I agree but electing a government, a government of our own is something which is the essence of the nation state. Clearly it’s nationalist. Why does the Dail even exist in the first place?



Best is entirely subjective. I agree that American exceptionalism can be over the top but these people exist in all nations. Again, just look at French. It would be a brave man to live in France and tell them how to run their country. Not sure where you are going with the hippies and gay people comments. Didn't Bill Clinton legislate to prohibit gay marriage in the 90's?



That is because there IS an offical class system in the UK. Can anyone be King or Queen or a Duke or a Baroness? Nope. In the US a black man raised by a single mother from Kansas became President of the United States. Sorry but in terms of class systems UK >>> US.



I suppose the point is that you are better off looking for a unicorn than an honest politician.

Does having a government = Nationalism? Try harder on that one.

Yes Obama did great though not sure what a boy raised in a middle class home has to do with showing class mobility in the states?

I suppose the point is that someone called Trump honest and was suddenly forced to back pedal at breakneck speeds.

FA Hayek

Christy42 wrote: »

Does having a government = Nationalism? Try harder on that one.

Erm, essentially yes. Think about it. What is our government?

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes Obama did great though not sure what a boy raised in a middle class home has to do with showing class mobility in the states?

Again it is saying that class mobility exists. Is there a truer manifestation of this? Can a young black boy from a council estate in Sheffield become King? Nope! Its impossible.

Christy42

FA Hayek wrote: »

Erm, essentially yes. Think about it. What is our government?



Again it is saying that class mobility exists. Is there a truer manifestation of this? Can a young black boy from a council estate in Sheffield become King? Nope! Its impossible.

They can become prime minister which is far closer to the role of Obama. Class mobility needs to extend to all levels. Not just a specific case.

You can't use the existence of governments to justify all nationalism. That is like using a handshake to justify a punch. Sure, there is contact in both but when someone asks if an aggressor made physical contact with you they aren't asking about a handshake.

FA Hayek

Christy42 wrote: »

They can become prime minister which is far closer to the role of Obama. Class mobility needs to extend to all levels. Not just a specific case.

Yes, they can. It's great that many people of colour have been PM of Britain then.

Christy42 wrote: »

You can't use the existence of governments to justify all nationalism. That is like using a handshake to justify a punch. Sure, there is contact in both but when someone asks if an aggressor made physical contact with you they aren't asking about a handshake.

Where did I justify nationalism? I turned your attention to the fact that as we no longer have empires we have nation states which has nationalism as its keystone. Nationalism is quite a new phenomena as well by the way.

Christy42

FA Hayek wrote: »

Yes, they can. It's great that many people of colour have been PM of Britain then.



Where did I justify nationalism? I turned your attention to the fact that as we no longer have empires we have nation states which has nationalism as its keystone. Nationalism is quite a new phenomena as well by the way.

Behind on the people of colour. Way ahead with the women in power bit though. Not sure what either has to do with class though.

Define new?

PopePalpatine

Trump has picked Indiana's Governor Mike Pence as his running mate. Oh, and the campaign logo looks totally not gay. :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

TP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqaKi9NTzS4

Christy42

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Better than the States if you are poor. (And still pretty good if you are rich given the relative sizes of the countries).

BoatMad

That is because there IS an offical class system in the UK. Can anyone be King or Queen or a Duke or a Baroness? Nope. In the US a black man raised by a single mother from Kansas became President of the United States. Sorry but in terms of class systems UK >>> US.

It matters not that these is a defined or undefined class system. It mattes what the degree of social mobility exists between the levels of the class system.

In the US thats defined by money and is an effective barrier as primogeniture is in the UK

BoatMad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

He is also popular because people are fed up with the lies and distortions put out there by the media. The public are finding their answers on the Internet.

answers on the Internet , well well, that will prove factual and useful , I mean the internet is full of truth .......err......

Democracy only works in the modern age of instant media , if participants broadly stick to facts and known truths , once you decend , ( as in Brexit ) into a collection of lies and misleading soundbites that sound good and appeal to the lowest common denominator, then the democratic process is fatally flawed and compromised. This is because the average voter has never the time nor the inclination to fact check and involve themselves in researching the claims that are being made. This is exacerbated by the speed of the media , democracy needs slow media not fast media

Trump is using the media as a reality TV series, what you see " looks like " reality , just like Big Brother , but in reality its all fakery and smoke and mirrors , but the public neither cares nor bothers , its just looks on ( and votes as well )

Links234

Trump’s VP Mike Pence tried to drain HIV funding for ‘gay cure’ therapy

On his 2000 campaign website, he wrote “Congress should support the reauthorisation of the [HIV funding] Ryan White Care Act only after completion of an audit to ensure that federal dollars were no longer being given to organisations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviours that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus. Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behaviour.”

Lovely fellow.

robindch

The guy who ghost-wrote Trump's "The Art of the Deal" talks about the Faustian deal he made:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trumps-remorseful-ghostwriter?mbid=social_facebook (interview)
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all (article)

It's fair to say that author Tony Schwartz is not a happy with at least one of his life choices.

PopePalpatine

He's going to regret another when the Drumpf*cks inevitably dox him.

recedite

Seems like Tony is still trying to milk his one time association with the Donald, even though it was many years ago.

That’s your right, but then you should have just remained silent. I just want to tell you that I think you’re very disloyal. Without me, you wouldn’t be where you are now. I had a lot of choice of who to have write the book, and I chose you, and I was very generous with you. I know that you gave a lot of speeches and lectures using ‘The Art of the Deal.’ I could have sued you, but I didn’t.”
“My business has nothing to do with ‘The Art of the Deal.’ ”
“That’s not what I’ve been told.”
“You’re running for President of the United States. The stakes here are high.”
“Yeah, they are,” he said. “Have a nice life.” Trump hung up

I suppose if Trump goes on to be President, this guy will love it because he can have regular little pot-boiler doing these little stories and interviews with these second rate journals.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Seems like Tony is still trying to milk his one time association with the Donald, even though it was many years ago.I suppose if Trump goes on to be President, this guy will love it because he can have regular little pot-boiler doing these little stories and interviews [...]

Contrary to your belief, telling the truth about Trump isn't a money-spinner - Schwartz has already received a heavy-handed cease-and-desist letter from Trump's lawyer:

Tony Schwartz wrote:

I fully expected him to attack me, because that is what he does, so I can’t say I am surprised [...] But I’m much more worried about his becoming president than I am about anything he might try to do to me.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/donald-trump-threatens-the-ghostwriter-of-the-art-of-the-deal

recedite wrote: »

[...] with these second rate journals.

I wouldn't have described the New Yorker as second rate - perhaps you still prefer the right wing Breitbart site, one of whose editors was banned from twitter a day or two back following a long campaign of personal abuse?

Fleawuss

So...the elephant is clearly visible in the room: an incompetent campaign organisation, a clumsily handled revolt from the floor, a plagiarized speech, a laughable deflection campaign, a coded Ted Cruz message to reject the Duck, a publicly announced intention to renege on the NATO treaty in certain circumstances...

I have never seen such a catalogue of idiocy from a main party and their candidate who aspires to the presidency.

Bristolscale7

Fleawuss wrote: »

So...the elephant is clearly visible in the room: an incompetent campaign organisation, a clumsily handled revolt from the floor, a plagiarized speech, a laughable deflection campaign, a coded Ted Cruz message to reject the Duck, a publicly announced intention to renege on the NATO treaty in certain circumstances...

I have never seen such a catalogue of idiocy from a main party and their candidate who aspires to the presidency.

It's like a ****ty episode of House of Cards.

robindch

Fleawuss wrote: »

I have never seen such a catalogue of idiocy from a main party [...]

Cast your mind back to the UK's Conservatives in the run up to, and the immediate aftermath of, the Brexit vote

Fleawuss

robindch wrote: »

Cast your mind back to the UK's Conservatives in the run up to, and the immediate aftermath of, the Brexit vote

They weren't running for the Presidency. I take your point though: the quality of politicians seems particularly poor at the minute.

Bristolscale7

lol
"My respect for Ted Cruz has doubled, but two times zero is still zero"

Hotblack Desiato

I hate Cruz with a passion but he really does have a point there.
Is Trump such an idiot that he never thought he'd need to win over the other GOP candidates - and more importantly their voters???