Review of daftdrop.com, a property price tracker

rat_race

Hi,

I created a new thread in the property forum, on a new site: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056313305 ... someone suggested I pop it here for a review.

Here's a quote from the above link:

I have just finished developing http://www.daftdrop.com, a new Irish property price tracker. Although in its infancy, it is mature/complete enough to be useful, and hopefully more useful/usable than any alternatives...

I hope you don't see this as a shameless plug because I really have nothing to gain from this, I just think it's a really useful resource.

The most useful part of the website is at http://www.daftdrop.com/#searchView ... I've focused on making it as fast and easy as possible to use; all searching can be done without browing to a new page, and the results table is fully sortable on any column. Each house is clickable to retrieve the full price history, without leaving the page.

Please let me know what you think. Note that it is a non-profit, non-commerical project/experiment (more of a hobby) which I developed in my spare time, so go easy with your criticisms!

Thanks ...



Cheers,
Cormac

D Hayes

Great idea for a web app. I really like the functionality - what are you using to develop it? I'm guessing php/json combo. Not much info on Firebug due to the use of iFrames.

I only have two criticisms:

1. The design - I like the colours but it could probably do with a slicker UI. You could probably get a Themeforest admin theme that would suit the layout of your site.

2. Heavy search queries crash my Firefox momentarily when I have Firebug switched on. E.g. Search for houses in Dublin with no filters in place. Works fine in Chrome though.

I don't usually critique websites here but I thought that this definitely merited a review. Very well done, especially for a one man operation.

D Hayes

Just reading through the other thread you've posted and you've answered one of the questions that I asked you (about what technologies you're using). You're using Google Web Toolkit. Interesting, haven't looked into using that yet but like the effect. What are the benefits to using that over something like php/json/ajax?

p

Technically it's probably fine, but usability-wise it's atrocious.

Confusing, hard to use, difficult to navigate etc...

Hire/Collaborate with a designer.

rat_race

buysellswap wrote: »

Just reading through the other thread you've posted and you've answered one of the questions that I asked you (about what technologies you're using). You're using Google Web Toolkit. Interesting, haven't looked into using that yet but like the effect. What are the benefits to using that over something like php/json/ajax?

Thanks for the useful feedback! GWT has lots of benefits...mainly is that the sites are cross-browser compliant (it generates different versions of the site specifically for different browsers), have tonnes of size and performance optimisations, requires minimal JavsScript coding (mostly Java, actually), and tonnes of widgets. Great tools and community too. Not without it's problems though, but the best toolkit I've used...

I can imagine Firebug + doing a search could be quite slow, especially for Dublin (1000+ houses parse, etc, while Firebug trying to keep track...).

rat_race

p wrote: »

Technically it's probably fine, but usability-wise it's atrocious.

Confusing, hard to use, difficult to navigate etc...

Hire/Collaborate with a designer.

Thanks for the review. Can you elaborate on what's difficult to use and navigate? Most have found the opposite.

I've no plans of collobarating with a designer though, the goal of the site is to be useful more than having nice curvey corners.

p

rat_race wrote: »

Thanks for the review. Can you elaborate on what's difficult to use and navigate? Most have found the opposite.

Generally people tend to give nice reviews to things when you ask them in person, so I wouldn't trust that too much.

A number of things.

• The tabbed slide panel is reinventing the wheel. Scrolling within the panel is annoying and unconventional.
• There's too much text, people don't read on the web and you need to make it more 'scanable' - read this http://webdesign.about.com/od/writing/a/aa031405.htm
• You mix conventions. On some pages there's buttons, while on others, e.g. "Leave a comment" button it's just a strange link style, not even an underline.
• Visually it's very very busy. The orange is garish, the logo is amateur and there is tons of lines just cluttering everything, and getting in the way of the content.
• Not good attention to detail in making things readable. E.g. "passing troll on Jul 4, 2011 8:49:51 PM said:" there's no differentiation of that piece of text visually, and it's very tech-centric. Does anyone care that the message was at 51 seconds for example.
• Search form is very confusing. Labels should be short, not a full sentence. Look at http://wufoo.com/ for examples on how to make better forms.
• "Tracking prices since 2011" - that's nothing to be proud of. Maybe add that tagline in 20 years. Also - why have 2 taglines in the first place. I'd focus on your goals of being unbiased and independent in the tagline instead.
• The name daftdrop - is that not trademark infringing. Either way, I think just copying a known name is a bit unoriginal.
• 'Last 5 price updates' and 'other updates' on the right hand side are mostly meaningless and out of context. Certainly shouldn't have such a high-priority on the front page. Also, this is a website, it doesn't need release notes, it's not a software project.

rat_race wrote: »

I've no plans of collobarating with a designer though, the goal of the site is to be useful more than having nice curvey corners.

I guess you've been seriously misinformed about what a designer's job is then. A huge part of a web designer's job is to make a site easy to use, use best practices and a pleasant experience overall. What you're talking about is style, and a designer chooses the appropriate style depending on your site's goals and audience. For example, the visuals would look very different on a banking website compared to a rock band's website, but both would need to be usable and address their core goals.

Your site would be much better with the assistance of a designer.

tricky D

rat_race wrote: »

I've no plans of collobarating with a designer though, the goal of the site is to be useful more than having nice curvey corners.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding about web design which even many designers make. Design is about solving problems, issues and the like. While some of that is in the visual and graphic design realm, design is much more than that. Not wanting fancy curvy bits is fine, but in order for your site to really be useful, it needs to be usable first. A good bit of front end treatment is needed for your site to become much better usability-wise. UI/UX design is the solution needed for you.

(Your developer side having too much influence to the detriment of the site, you need to break away from that)


Really hate the iframes and see no good reason to use them at all. It's bad practice SEO-wise, breaks mouse wheel scrolling function when frame is out of focus which just is bloody irritating and a load of other reasons.

Echoing what p says, the homepage is way too verbose and why is the search function not right there in the middle of the page.

As there is only 2 months of data, the info isn't going to be much use yet. So there's an opportunity to sign people up for price change updates which has remarketing benefits. It's a real pity you didn't do this 2/3 years ago for obvious reasons.

Results table needs usability (readibility) work too.

The 2 update panels on the rhs aren't needed imo.

The source has everything in an iframe which is just baffling. Use ordinary, regular layout and navigation please. The markup I see in FireBug is also baffling.

hth/gl

rat_race

You make a couple of somewhat constructive points, but largely fail to justify why it's an "atrocious" website.

p wrote: »

Generally people tend to give nice reviews to things when you ask them in person, so I wouldn't trust that too much.

I'm not talking about "in person"; I'm talking about three different threads on two different forum websites, and comments/mails I've received through the site. The site is being used a lot and I can see from logs and various comments that most people can figure it out quickly and first time (geniuses).

p wrote: »

The tabbed slide panel is reinventing the wheel. Scrolling within the panel is annoying and unconventional..

Personally I've nothing against re-use or being unconventional.

p wrote: »

There's too much text, people don't read on the web and you need to make it more 'scanable' - read this http://webdesign.about.com/od/writing/a/aa031405.htm

Don't have time to read your bookmarks but I agree with this and it's something I'm aware of.

p wrote: »

You mix conventions. On some pages there's buttons, while on others, e.g. "Leave a comment" button it's just a strange link style, not even an underline.

Eh, no I don't. "Leave a comment" is foldable panel, it has nothing in common with any of the three buttons, or other links do on the site. It's not a button and it's not a link. Try clicking it at some stage.

p wrote: »

Visually it's very very busy. The orange is garish, the logo is amateur and there is tons of lines just cluttering everything, and getting in the way of the content.

You can like or dislike the look-and-fall but I disagree that lines clutter up content, sorry.

p wrote: »

Not good attention to detail in making things readable. E.g. "passing troll on Jul 4, 2011 8:49:51 PM said:" there's no differentiation of that piece of text visually, and it's very tech-centric. Does anyone care that the message was at 51 seconds for example.

That's one example. And does anyone care that the message says it was at 51 seconds? I'd say you're one of the few.

p wrote: »

Search form is very confusing. Labels should be short, not a full sentence. Look at http://wufoo.com/ for examples on how to make better forms.

Again, the "very confusing" part might only apply to a very small minority; most people find it simple. I agree though that I could remove the "and in the"..."area" bit have less text overall there.

p wrote: »

"Tracking prices since 2011" - that's nothing to be proud of. Maybe add that tagline in 20 years. Also - why have 2 taglines in the first place. I'd focus on your goals of being unbiased and independent in the tagline instead.

I somewhat agree.

p wrote: »

The name daftdrop - is that not trademark infringing. Either way, I think just copying a known name is a bit unoriginal.

Atrocious.

p wrote: »

'Last 5 price updates' and 'other updates' on the right hand side are mostly meaningless and out of context. Certainly shouldn't have such a high-priority on the front page. Also, this is a website, it doesn't need release notes, it's not a software project.

The first thing people want is to know when the last price update was. I know this from experience and comments, and from similar websites (none of which you've visitied, I'm sure).

p wrote: »

I guess you've been seriously misinformed about what a designer's job is then.

Don't worry, I know what a designer's job is. My point was, the site is, in the majority's opinion, already very easy to use and navigate; there is no need for a designer to make this site useable.

No offence, but if a site that small phases you that much then you're either exaggerating or pretty challenged. I feel it is perhaps the former!

rat_race

tricky D wrote: »

This is a fundamental misunderstanding about web design which even many designers make. Design is about solving problems, issues and the like. While some of that is in the visual and graphic design realm, design is much more than that. Not wanting fancy curvy bits is fine, but in order for your site to really be useful, it needs to be usable first. A good bit of front end treatment is needed for your site to become much better usability-wise. UI/UX design is the solution needed for you.

(Your developer side having too much influence to the detriment of the site, you need to break away from that)


Really hate the iframes and see no good reason to use them at all. It's bad practice SEO-wise, breaks mouse wheel scrolling function when frame is out of focus which just is bloody irritating and a load of other reasons.

Echoing what p says, the homepage is way too verbose and why is the search function not right there in the middle of the page.

As there is only 2 months of data, the info isn't going to be much use yet. So there's an opportunity to sign people up for price change updates which has remarketing benefits. It's a real pity you didn't do this 2/3 years ago for obvious reasons.

Results table needs usability (readibility) work too.

The 2 update panels on the rhs aren't needed imo.

The source has everything in an iframe which is just baffling. Use ordinary, regular layout and navigation please. The markup I see in FireBug is also baffling.

hth/gl

The source doesn't have everything in an iFrame; you are mistaken. Try reading this and you'll see what that iFrame you saw is for:
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideCodingBasicsHistory.html

The rest of the site is generated at via JavaScript; 0% of which I wrote. Also, there will be no SEO issues.

Research GWT if you're baffled.

The results table could be more readable, I agree there. That's about the only useful comment I've read, so thank you.

tricky D

Wow, you're a charmer. That's some hostile reaction to good and free feedback. Looks like we've wasted our time and effort. There's no point in addressing the individual points but your appreciation of front end and usability matters, SEO and other best practices is lacking. Frames have been bad practice for at least 10 years at this stage and are killing your SEO dead (a few searches confirm that and the link to GWT has no relevance). If you step out of the classic developer bubble you are in, you'll do your site a world of good.

Pity really as it's a nice tool.

rat_race

tricky D wrote: »

Wow, you're a charmer. That's some hostile reaction to good and free feedback. Looks like we've wasted our time and effort. There's no point in addressing the individual points but your appreciation of front end and usability matters, SEO and other best practices is lacking. Frames have been bad practice for at least 10 years at this stage and are killing your SEO dead (a few searches confirm that and the link to GWT has no relevance). If you step out of the classic developer bubble you are in, you'll do your site a world of good.

Pity really as it's a nice tool.

I'm not intending to sound hostile. But you're missing the point again. I didn't ask for a code review or an SEO review.

The content you see on the site is _not_ in frames. Go research GWT / Pretty Simple History / any Ajax technology.

The reason the site has poor SEO right now because it's an Ajax website (that is, not crawlable), and is easily overcome using the techniques outlined at:

http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html

Again, this has ZERO to do with that frame you noticed. Every single Ajax site in the world has this problem.

I'm not in any "classic developer" bubble, you're back to making assumptions ... I asked for a review, instead I feel I got a couple of guys with Firebug, misconceptions, a tendendency to exaggerate, coupled with vocabulary like "hate", and "atrocious". That's not constructive for me...

Thankfully other threads were however.

tricky D

From the charter:

1. This forum is for requesting feedback on your website. If you post a site for critique, don’t complain if you get bad reviews. You want people to see it, you have to allow for the possibility that they wont like it.

Code review and SEO has no place in a website review, you're kidding. You have also got good frontend and UI advice based on decades of frontend experience, yet you dare call that unconstructive.

Talk about ungrateful and rude.

Good day to you!

p

rat_race wrote: »

You make a couple of somewhat constructive points, but largely fail to justify why it's an "atrocious" website.
...

No offence, but if a site that small phases you that much then you're either exaggerating or pretty challenged. I feel it is perhaps the former!

Seriously dude, you need to know how to take a critique. This site doesn't "phase me" I don't care either way. You asked for feedback and I gave you my honest opinion. You asked me to expand, and I took the time to write out a detailed reply. This is what I do for a living, I know what i'm talking about.

I'm not sure why I bothered now, if this is the atitude you throw back at when I try to help.

cormee

I'd post a review but I'd only be repeating absolutely everything Tricky D and P said.

You're letting your pride get in the way of some very good advice.

You're a developer, you develop software. They're designers they design the interface and user experience. When it comes to coding matters you know what's best, and in design matters they know what's best.

If you're unhappy or disagree with that, or if you take constructive criticism personally, you really shouldn't request a design review.

People are going to give you their opinion, which, whether you like it or not, may not necessarily reinforce your own views.

rat_race

cormee,

I'm not letting pride get in the way of anything. I have taken the little bit of good advice on board, having already expressed my agreement with several points in the above posts. I am thankful for that.

And I don't know where you're all going with this "developer bubble/pride" stuff (hang around in similar developer-loathing circles, it seems? ). I have zero problems being criticised. And this is mostly why I posted here in the first place -- to get negative feedback.

But there's the art of giving an accurate, educated review, and then there's being uneccessairly condescending, presumptious, way over-the-top, and more importantly, simply wrong. The latter seemed to dominate on this particular day. I'm busy and I'm not going to waste time writing bullet points justifying why I'm saying this (again); any sharp discerning reader will agree with me.

I'm not interested in discussing this further as it's of benefit to nobody, let's agree to disagree.

cormee

rat_race wrote: »

(hang around in similar developer-loathing circles, it seems? ).

No, but I've been working in the industry long enough to know there is a percentage of developers who don't think their work can be improved upon, and resent any input, other than praise, into what they consider to be their baby.

It works both ways - I have to rework my wireframes/designs according to their specs as well. But at the end of the day it always results in a better product.

rat_race

cormee wrote: »

No, but I've been working in the industry long enough to know there is a percentage of developers who don't think their work can be improved upon, and resent any input, other than praise, into what they consider to be their baby.

It works both ways - I have to rework my wireframes/designs according to their specs as well. But at the end of the day it always results in a better product.

Totally agree...